why should they most of the time they are not of this world anyway and they are sexually neutral.

It would be nice if some of them did. GLBTQ folks are as much part of our diversity as are various racial/ethnic groups that are certainly getting more representation in cartoons and kids shows. They do need to be well-integrated into the story and not just be there as the "token gays" to make a point (or to earn brownie points), though.

As to Sesame Street, I don't think Bert and Ernie should "come out" at this point. It would come across as either a publicity stunt or catering to a "special interest group" and might do more harm than good. Better approach now, if SS wanted to have GLBTQ characters, would be to introduce them as new characters.

Mendalla

Absolutely.  On Sesame Street, Gordon and Susan are married and have a son, Maria and Luis are married and have a daughter.  They have a single mother on the show, too.  It would be great to have a gay couple move in to the neighbourhood, showing the same level of affection that the straight couples show (hugs, perhaps the odd kiss on the cheek) and the explanation is very simple: usually boys and girls grow up and love each other, but sometimes boys love boys and girls love girls.  Then they go on about their business on Sesame street and their homosexuality is just a fact of who they are, just like Maria and Luis are married and they own the Fix It Shop.  It wouldn't make any sense, imo, to introduce gay muppets because they are generally childlike.  On other kids' shows, the way to do this is through the parents and relatives of the characters, so Franklin's aunt has a special girlfriend, for example.  It's no different from including single parents or kids with disabilities or mixed race families or any other "not the norm" kind of family...it needs to be done very simply and without any fanfare...this is just how things are, and it will help a lot of kids to see people like themselves being accepted in tv shows.

Edited to add:  Regarding Bert and Ernie specifically, no, I don't think they should suddenly come out as gay.  They are roommates and that's all.  The gay jokes are for adult amusement only.  Besides, they sleep in twin beds. 

yes.  And  there should be artists, craftspeople, rich, poor, middleclass, all genders - the comic world is not just for animals and looney tunes disguising cultures, races and class systems. 

Can't think why not...

Sesame Street Responds to Marriage Petition: Ernie and Bert are Not Gay, They Are Best Friends

The Sesame Workshop has responded to an online petition urging them to marry Ernie and Bert:

Bert and Ernie are best friends. They were created to teach preschoolers that people can be good friends with those who are very different from themselves.

Even though they are identified as male characters and possess many human traits and characteristics (as most Sesame Street Muppets™ do), they remain puppets, and do not have a sexual orientation.

Hear hear, jlin! :3

crazyheart,

I think there is room enough in this wide world for a lot of different programs, catering to different 'tribes'.  There is, indeed, One Tribe (humanity) but we are made up of several smaller tribes (worldviews, BS).  Polytheistic monotheism for all :3

My own idear of a good children's show would be one that doesn't talk down to kids & one that teaches children to love ALL aspects of themselves (their bodies, their sexuality, their minds, etc etc etc) & one that encourages exploration and creativity.

Jobam,

I like the response from the Sesame Street folks :3

Here's another response, from Huffington Post.

IW, I would not be comfortable with a children's show exploring their sexualities.  Kids shouldn't be thought of in a sexual manner, IMHO.  Something catered to teens might be more appropriate.

I agree with PPs, Bert and Ernie should not 'come out' as they are just friends.  If they want to incorporate a same sex couple it would make the most sense to bring in a new real couple onto the show.  How many of the muppets are in a romantic relationship?

If it ever happens, and your pornography-detector's settings are triggered, you don't have to watch it; you'll still love these people with differing likes & dislikes than you, but you don't have to adopt their lifestyle, right?  The old days of 'one channel' or 'one newspaper' for everyone is going going gone :3

If you think of your children (no matter how young) as sexless beings, then you are choosing to ignore that aspect of their life.  If you haven't been paying attention to how your babies enjoy themselves, that's your issue :3

I'd teach my kids to love everything aboot themselves and not think of themselves as wrong or tainted or shame them for their natural selves and to be empathetic with others to know when others are upset.  To be true agape-ful people instead of people who do or don't do things based on fear or shame.

Our poor kids, I'm glad they survive their oppressive parents :3

EDIT:  I think that everyone has their own 'pornography/blasphemy detector', which may have different settings :3

Pedophiles probably would watch the shows.  That's what makes me extremely uncomfortable.  There are also many steps involved in discovering one's sexuality.  Puberty is one big jump and most kids at the age where they would watch children's shows are quite a way's from puberty.

Bless you for your empathy toward pedophiles

When I use the term 'sexual' I am trying to have it mean more than 'rubbing groins'.  I guess a term I should've used is eroticism?  To be open to the experiences of the world, things like what feels good, why, where, what doesn't feel good, why, where, and so forth?  Things like for boys to be able to hug long after they've 'grown' and not feel uncomfortable or shameful.

I don't think Bert and Ernie should "come out." I see all of the muppets as being child-like in nature, and therefore it would be inappropriate for any of them to get married. If they were to introduce human characters who were GLBTQ - that would be excellent, imho. I think that if you are going to have a character with any form of sexuality, the character should at least be a teenager.

DO we worry too much about the orientation of fictional characters?

I know some poeple worry too much about teh orientation of real people

One does not have to "explore sexuality" in a kids show to have a married couple that just happens to be two men or two women. I don't hear anyone screaming that the married couples in Sesame Street already over the years were "exploring sexuality".

If kids shows have married couples in them, then there should be at least some representation of the diversity of marreid couples and families.

Kids are already exposed to adult relationships daily, and they are exposed in a way that celebrates heterosexuality and condemns homosexuality.  This isn't about helping kids to determine if they are gay or straight...it's about making sure that the kid who discovers he or she is gay isn't discovering that he or she is also something so horrible that it's never mentioned in polite company.  Simply having a gay couple on the show, acting like any other couple, normalizes same-sex relationships.  Kids with gay parents will feel less different.  Kids who are gay will feel less different.  It's healthier for everyone.  No one will "turn gay" from it and there won't be any sexual descriptions.  It will be just like the same stuff they see every day when they walk down the street and see opposite couples holding hands or know that their neighbours are married.

I think the answer to this question, from my point of view, depends on how many adult relationship-types the show involves. If it's something like Max and Ruby, or Thomas the Tank Engine, where there ARE no 'romantic' involvements and often, in the case of Max and Ruby, no adults, period, to force a round peg into a square hole just to prove a political point would be awkward and make a bigger deal of the whole thing than necessary where that's not the emphasis of the show.

Something like Sesame Street, however, where they do have a variety of family types, races, adult characters, and a history of tackling social issues, I could actually understand. I don't necessarily think it should be Bert and Ernie - frankly, I think those two are supposed to be kids, and I almost think of them as brothers more than a 'couple'. But in the same context as Maria and Luis, or Gordon and Susan, introducing a same-sex couple as parents, or characters on the Street, I actually think could be a great way of forwarding Sesame Street's mission to teach understanding and respect for diversity.

Children's characters should be diverse, and help kids learnt that being different is not the same as being bad.

It's Not Easy Being Green.

In this video made for the It's get Better Project. ( a Project directed to Gay Kids to prevent suicide caused by bullying)

Kermit Comes out of the closet.

bert and Ernie are gay. They were designed to be role models, and were important characters that helped the LGBT liberation movement. however in order to go on air they can not say it. They can not get married, or they would pull Sesame St off the air. Kids already know they are different than others on the show.

Alex, with respect, they aren't gay.  The producers say so.  And since they are fictional, then the producers are god.  Dumbledore is gay.  Why?  It's not in the books anywhere.  But the authour says so.  And since he is fictional, the authour is god.

A gay couple on Sesame St. would be awesome, and given that they do have married couples, it would not be out of line.

But not all men who live together have to be gay.  It was a fair question to ask of Ernie and Bert, but the answer has been given.

Bert and Ernie are not gay. They're not straight either. They are puppets. P-u-p-p-e-t-s. They have no sexual orientation. They have no sex organs. They have no brains. They just have hands up there.

http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Are_Ernie_and_Bert_gay%3F

This is interesting... I just found this on the NPR site...

"Newly released Sesame Street DVDs of its early episodes show material that would never air today. For example, the set features a closeted gay couple living in a basement, a puppet who binge eats on cookies and lengthy psychedelic segments.

Alex Cohen talks with Daniel Anderson about the difference in program standards. Anderson was a consultant on the show in the 1970s." (source: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16466274 )

Good grief.   I remember when some people were upset when they decided that a Teletuby was gay - because his voice-over was a male voice and he carried a purse.  I'd been watching the show with my toddler granddaughter for quite some time.  It never occured to either of us that the Teletubies were anything other than plush teddybears - absolutely sexless.  No sex organs, no gender, no sexual orientation.  Just a silly little show that granddaughter soon outgrew for something more challenging. 

And now Sesame Street!!!!!  

They're puppets!!!!!

You are correct they are not gay. What I should have said is that they were modeled after gay people.

And yes, its time to introduce gay and lesbian people on TV - both in children's and adult programs.  But give them real roles - neighbours, friends, teachers, bus drivers, gardeners.   And no need to spell out their sexual orientation.  Just let it be part of who they are.   Write a role for a new couple who moves into the neighbourhood - starts a business - enrolls their kid in school - holds a barbeque to get to know the neighbours.  Then decide - will it be a man and woman?, two men?, two women?    Pretty much the same as having a mixed race couple move in - or a couple where one is in a wheelchair.   Put more emphasise on who they are as whole people, don't worry about their sexual orientation.

Alex, do you know this?  Do you have a statement from the creators of the show?  Or is this just something that you surmise?  

I too listened to an intervciew with the guy who has the petition, I forget his name

he was a total loon

He said that you know ernie and bert are gay because they are both males and live together.

that woudl be a big surprise to all those same sex room mates and best friends.

he also said that johnny Quest and his best friend haji were gay because they were best friends.

I do think that a variety of everyday couples on a show like Sesame Street is a good thing.  Interracial, same sex, heterosexual, single, widowed, divorced......

not to discuss sexual issues, just to show that there is variety.

Ernie and Bert are best friends.  They live together.  Like lots of best friends.

I surmise much in the same way people surmise that John McCrae was gay, and wrote the poem in Flanders Field in grief over the loss of his lover.  . however just as McCrae is from a time when the modern concept of gay did not exist, thus he could not be "gay" even if he loved men. Muppets are fictional characters, who do not belong in our world, where we have a certain definition of gay.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/bytown-museum-claims-famed-war-poet-john-mccrae-020246372.html

However John McCrae and Bert and Ernie are role models for gay men. If the creator of Bert and Ernie did not deliberately intend them to be so, he develop them based on same sex couples from our world, who he might have not consciously defined as gay, but like John NcCrae in our world and our culture would be.  All fictional characters are based on a combinations of different real people. Bert and Ernie are full of gay stuff, one just has to watch them long enough. You see everything but the sex. 

many gay people will agree, as you will see people dressed as Bert and Ernie at pride events.   Also many evangelicals in the southern US will agree.  In the nineties they tried to band Sesame Street productions, like Sesame Street on Ice, because the were threaten by the gay inside Bert and Ernie. 

The producers did not create Bert and Ernie, they just run the show and work for Disney. I can not tell you how many gay men are in the closet to their employers, it's almost a defining feature of being gay and working in children's TV.

 However your point about Dumbledore is good. We should really ask Frank Oz the only surviving creator of Bert and Ernie, for a definitive answer. 

They were based on 2 fruits (or 2 straight men, depending on which you go with):

Ernie and Bert were built by Don Sahlin from a simple design scribbled by Jim Henson, creator of The Muppets. In a classic pairing, Ernie appears chubby while Bert appears quite skinny (in a similar way to Abbott and Costello or Laurel and Hardy).^[1] They were originally intended to show that people can be friends, even though they're very different.^[2]

Initially, Henson performed Bert and Oz performed Ernie, but after just one day of rehearsal, they switched characters. According to writer Jon Stone, the relationship between Ernie and Bert reflected the real-life friendship between Henson and Oz.^[3]

According to A&E's Biography, Ernie and Bert were virtually the only Muppets to appear in the Sesame Street pilot episode, which was screen tested to a number of families in July 1969. Their brief appearance was the only part of the pilot that tested well, so it was decided that not only should Muppet characters be the "stars" of the show, but would also interact with the human characters, something that was not done in the pilot.^{[citation needed]}

Ernie and Bert were designed by Don Sahlin based on two fruits. Bert was based on a banana and Ernie was an orange.^[4

(From wikipedia)

I don't think they were based on gay men.  They may have started off being based off of 2 individuals, but I'm sure over time all types of people were incorporated into  different episodes, gay, straight, old, young, etc.

Alex - I hate to say this but your reasoning of why you've decided that Bert and Ernie are gay men seems to be based on stereotypes.

Also, the two clips you've included in your post - are you sure they were on Sesame Street on TV for children - or were they someone else's interpretation?

So Alex, what about this poem is saying to you that McCrae is gay.  Because he wrote it after the death of a friend?

Surely, most men who fought in wars and continue to fight in wars dearly love their fellow soldiers.  And certainly a percentage of them must be gay, just as a percentage of them are gay in society.

But surely many of them are heterosexual men who just love their buddies as we love our friends. 

I have no idea, what in the poem but it has been in the paper a lot due to the Bytown museum telling people so. My point, ( and the same goes for some people in the Bible, like Jesus and King David) and people like Charlotte Whitton, and my maternal Grandmother who had a life long passionate friendship with another women who she exchanged rings with, we have no way of knowing without photos of them having sex, and even then it's shows nothing more than they had sex.it would not say that they were gay. Hower as myths they become gay in our day and culture.

Read this article 

 

"As someone who teaches the history of sexuality, I'm familiar with the propensity to project our own labels for and understandings of sexuality back onto the past. It's understandable. We are conditioned in our culture to think of sexuality as natural and innate, as something outside of history. Sure, names change over time - fairy and fruit yesterday, LG-BTQ today - but we believe there must always have been people in the past who had some form of samesex identity, along of course with the many who didn't, as McCrae's defenders so anxiously assert.

But the sexual past is a far stranger country than this. Consider the startling fact that the word homosexuality only entered the English language for the first time in 1892 and, for a long time after, enjoyed only a very limited cultural circulation. Gay, of course, came even later. In this way of thinking, a gay Mc-Crae in 1915 makes no sense. But if not gay or homosexual, then what?"

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/life/John+McCrae/5187315/story.html#ixzz1VCU3KTAd

Because ultimately we have to ask, what is gay. Does someone even have to, or be able to have sex, to be gay. Gay in itself is also a construct of our time and culture. So to put it on others will always be speculative.

Real people become myths, just as fictional characters are, after they die, and what they myth speaks to become about as much as the person interpreting the myth as the person.

Did you know Star Trek's Spock and Dr McCoy were lovers, I mean the way they fought and sniped at each other, and how Spock implanted his essence into McCoy. Beside Spock only seem to want to have sex with a women every 7 years.

Now back to Bert and Ernie, If living together and sleeping in the same bedroom, for 40 years is not enough of a stereotype for you, it will be for others.

How about this. Actual video of Ernie taking a bath and singing Rubber duckie.  I mean how many straight men do you know take baths   Enjoy

Alex, if Bert was in the bath with Ernie I think you'd have better evidence to support your position.  Sorry, I just see their relationship as a friendship.

Sorry again Alex, but I don't see anything in that cartoon that indicates that Ernie is gay.  I've always interpreted it as a cute little cartoon for young children that makes bath time fun and thus promotes cleanliness.    He's a puppet!!!

As for straight men not taking baths - could that be another stereotype.   I know several men in my own family who take baths.   Some prefer them to showers and take them frequently.   Does that mean that they are gay?  

I don't presume someone is gay unless they self-identify in some way.  Good friends, roommates - not necessarily gay.  Married with children - not necessarily straight.   My cousin has a limp handshake - I don't think he's gay.   A retired minister on the next block has a beautiful flower garden (his wife grows vegetables) but I don't think he is gay.  Also his wife tells me that he doesn't know one end of a hammer from another and she doesn't all the minor repairs and maintenance around the house - I don't think she is lesbian.

As for John McRae or Jesus or anybody else in history, it seems to me that it would be pretty hard to state with any certainty that they were gay or not.   I've read a pretty good argument that St. Paul was gay.   I now read some of his writing in that light - but I don't know it.  

I don't think Bert and Ernie are gay - I don't think they are straight - I don't think about their sexual identities at all.   I don't think they had any.  

Speaking of fiction ...... jab, jab, jab...

Seriously though, statistically speaking, how many of the major protagonist characters in the Bible would have been homosexual?

Think about it...

We agree that taking baths are a stereotype.

I also agree that for you these people and characters are not gay for you. However for others they are.

I can make someone dead, or some fictional person gay because they exist in the realm of myth. It is about meaning. Others can make them something else.

True meaning is held not only in the person, but in the conversation.

A second point , so as as not to confuse them, each Of the two points can stand by themselves,

Conversation is held using language. language conveys meaning, however language changes from person to person, and we can can only surmise meaning from the context each word is used. While the word gay nevr existed before the sixties, thus no gay people existed before the sixties, it does point to some sort of person interested by same sex relationships. After all even to identify today as gay you do not have to be involved in sex, nor do you need to be involved in any type of relationship. ( Sadly I know that to be true).

What I mean by gay, can be different by what you mean by gay. So generally we look at a series of attributes. When you look you might include things like sexual relationship with men to the exclusion of women. I do not. When I look at Spock and McCoy, Bert and Ernie, Johns McCrae, I see certain gay attributes. I even see certain " straight men" alive today, to be gay, or at least have enough attributes to be gay to me.

Thus we

When I was a kid watching cartoons and sesame street, sexual orientation was the furthest thing from my mind. I just was who I was. I didn't understand the birds and the bees ( or the birds and the birds or the bees and the bees). I was just getting past potty training.

Interestingly, at 3 years old I was totally "colour blind" until I watched a bit on sesame street discussing how different people had different skin colours....then, innocently having made a discovery,  I had to point out how my adopted friend down the street looked different from her parents. I asked my mom why. My mom was mortified because my friend's parents certainly weren't ready to have that discussion with her and it wasn't my place to introduce the subject of adoption...I had to promise not to say anything, but didn't understand what the fuss was about and why I seemed to be in trouble for making this discovery. I couldn't understand adult worries...so introducing kids to subjects such as sexual orientation, which they may not have the cognitive ability to process..and for whom it really doesn't matter to yet, may not be a good idea. Although, for older kids, I support it.

If being a friend with someone of the same sex means gay then we are all gay.

This makes absolutely no sense to me.

Well, I guess i will jump in.

Puppets are puppets,imo. They have no orientation. Handy Manny portrays a handy person. He is a plumber, carpenter and the puppets are all tools. Still no orientation.

I think this is trying to hard to make a point for the GLBTQ community.

Now to have real life same sex couples on a children's show is a different matter. They have an orientation. They are not puppets. They are real people in real life and I see nothing wrong with having them on a show for children.

When this thread started cartoons were the focus. I responded to that. In the case of real life people like the ones on sesame street I don't have a problem with them being represented in the same way as all the others with no extra emphasis.

I also agree with others about the children's characters in things like Bob the Builder exc are not sexual beings they are entertainment.

After my long post above, I agree that it's okay to present characters as "couples" such as Kermit and Piggy, or Burt and Ernie, as they are...but I think the concerns about the portrayal of sexual orientation are adult issues being projected onto kids who don't have any preconceived notions one way or the other and have nothing to worry about. Little kids don't realize or care about the difference between a couple and a couple of friends, do they?...so to introduce our world to 3 yr olds doesn't seem necessary to me. Another example would be kids playing with cars vs. dolls...we are projecting our concerns and our adult assessments/ sexual politics  into their world...they don't care. They just play with the toys they want to play with and watch the cartoons they like to watch. 

Wait a minute, hold on there, are you suggesting honestly that King David and Jesus were gay?

Balderdash. Spock transferred his katra into McCoy because the good doctor was the one with Spock in the Enterprise engine room when Spock was about to die. If it had been Uhura who had been there with Spock, he would have transferred his katra just as easily into her. As for Spock having sex with women only every seven years, that's because he is half-Vulcan.

[quote=MorningCalm]

Wait a minute, hold on there, are you suggesting honestly that King David and Jesus were gay?

Did you know Star Trek's Spock and Dr McCoy were lovers, I mean the way they fought and sniped at each other, and how Spock implanted his essence into McCoy. Beside Spock only seem to want to have sex with a women every 7 years.

Balderdash. Spock transferred his katra into McCoy because the good doctor was the one with Spock in the Enterprise engine room when Spock was about to die. If it had been Uhura who had been there with Spock, he would have transferred his katra just as easily into her. As for Spock having sex with women only every seven years, that's because he is half-Vulcan.

No but other people have/

Also Spock could have passed it on to Uhura, but does it not mean something that Spock spends so much time with Dr McCoy, a men he is always bickering with, that McCoy just happened to be there.  How many scenes do you find Spock and Uhura togther alone in?  hmmmmmm  

The myths that develop do not infer all the history of the stories are accurate or can be known.

Have Bert and Ernie been seen by those "different" as also different? Did Bert and Ernie's "relationship" make a gay child feel life and love is possible? Certainly.

Does it mean they were gay? No.

Jo Polnachek on "Facts of Life" was not a gay character, but in her I saw myself. I was normal. Buddy on "Family". Peppermint Patty... I remember a character on "Barney Miller" coming out. Who else does? You see, for me and those like me, it mattered. Archie Bunker giving mouth to mouth to a woman who turned out to be a man? My mom's soap opera "All My Children" featured Devan and her therapist (played by Donna Pescow)... "Love, Sidney", Martin Mull's character on "Roseanne".... "Three's Company" and Jack pretending to be gay.. a woman on "Day of Our Lives" telling Julie Williams she loved her (though nothng ever developed)....Blanche's gay brother on "Golden Girls"....

Could have been gay.., might have been gay... might make gay ok... it was picked up by me. They became role modelling, whether they were intended to bethat  or not.

For some, it is David and Jonathon. For some it is McRae and his friend.... For some, Bert and Ernie... For me, Buddy... even though she was not for writers who had her kissing Leif Garrett. It killed me... she was, in my mind's eye, not to kiss boys.

We want to identify and want to not be alone. Buddy kissing Zach Russell killed me. I went back to being alone....

Can you understand people identifying they ARE gay, MIGHT be gay to feel better? Is that what is done when people argue they ARE NOT? They are puppets and IMO debating anything is about justification or vilification...

 What about when we cannot know? Again, it is often an agenda, can we admit that?(Alexander the Great) Do "spinsters" become lesbians or were they always or are they simply "spinsters"? It says more about us than them...

Alex, I agree, many children were drawn to Bert and Ernie, because they were "different" or they saw themselves in them. They were "adopted". Gay or not gay by design, inference, or acceptance... they kept many children safe, happy... They also kept many adults feeling they had a place....

For me, they are characters....as such-  they are gay if the children watching them say they are/need them to be/are told they are.... they are friends if the children watching them say they are/need them to be/are told they are.... they are as fake or as real as they need them to be...

Ask yourself why they are what you believe them to be....no matter what side you are on.

I didn't think of Bert and Ernie one way or another...and they were not adults or kids either...they were puppets and ageless. They taught lessons about getting along with others.

I saw Jo from Facts of Life as a" tomboy", and as such, felt it was okay for girls to be interested in motorbikes or any other male dominated activites. I saw her as strong and independent....there were some negative stereotypes on that show too...Blair, the spoiled rich girl obsessed with appearance.  I identified with the Jerry character because she had a disability...but that was when I was a pre-teen teen finding my independent identity, not a little kid living in an imaginary inner world that was not concerned with sexuality.

I agree stereotypes do not tell us anything alone. However their are two reasons two main reasons we look to decide if someone belongs to a certain group. One is for role models, Two is too see how to interpret or predict certain other behaviours. This is principally the reason people ask if someone like St Paul was "gay" How would this affect the way we read him for instance.

I have not played who's gay in history, or which fictional characters are based on gay people for a long time. Recently I have been looking at who had high functioning forms of autism. For instance, because of several stereotypes, I have, I can surmise Stephen Hawkings, and Einstein have either PDD NOS or Aspergers.   The stereotypes I base this on is that of people with such conditions, display, the delay in the development of speech in childhood, awkwardness, and difficulty with personal relationships, a love of finding patterns and order in things, difficulty with eye contact,  love of and the ability to spend time alone, sensitivity to physical stimuli, and the ability to live for a long time with various illnesses that would have killed others.

While they each do have all of the stereotypes, they have enough of them for me to surmise. Other people might have one or two of these attributes, but they do not have enough of them to be considered high functioning autistics.  Taking these groups of stereotypes together, allows me to understand there weaknesses, and strengths. Thus in a discussion concerning their ideas, I can focus on where there strengths are, and where there weakness are in thinking. However knowing that these things exists in culture, and that all things exists on a continuum, I can not be sure, but just very certain.

Likewise most people agree that Plato would be "gay" today. Because he wrote about having sex with men. Not all gay men have sex, and some  straight men  do have sex with men. However saying Plato is gay ignores this and the other the other characteristics or stereotypes of which it means to be "gay" . He did live in a culture that devalued women. And we know that in many cultures that do so like Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and the Vatican, they turn to boys, because they are repelled with the idea of having anything to do with women, that's how misogynistic they are.

So tell me again sate  that characters who are male, have slept in the same bedroom for 40 years, prefer bathing over showering,  and who love to sing show tunes are not based on gay men.  How many straight guys do you know that fit this descrition.  At that very least you need to see that it is likely that they like to do things that stereotypical gay men do. I bet they like to lunch with elderly women to. So regardless what you you see, I see gay. Even if they are directed at children.

The first gay men I heard of were from the childhood rhyme. Fatty and Skinny went to bed, fatty rolled over and skinny was dead. 

SG - Thank You for sharing that, You said it so well. Better than I ever could and was trying to figure out how to word what I wanted to say. You said it for me. Thank You.

I always enjoy your posts.

​*Peace - Love - Respect - Humility* Unconditionally

Wolfie

Alex, Bert and Ernie took baths like kids take baths... I don't see any gender related preference there...Some people just like baths, some people just like showers, some people make that decision based on time, convenience, or available facilities...The creators of Sesame Street made Burt and Ernie relevant to kids lives, taught them about daily routines and getting along with others, and perhaps they helped parents to get their kids to take baths with less resistance.