A far more interesting question is whether children should be taught these things AT ALL, or whether they'd be better served by being introduced to religion at an age when they can understand it and make an informed decision about whether they'd like to be involved in it.

clam, I agree. One of the things about religion that is being lost is the sense of the sense of the sacred.

Blah wrote:

A far more interesting question is whether children should be taught these things AT ALL, or whether they'd be better served by being introduced to religion at an age when they can understand it and make an informed decision about whether they'd like to be involved in it.
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I totally and completely agree with you, Blah. I've told my kids all along that I will be more than happy to introduce them to different faith communities when they are ready to think and understand and make an informed decision. At 10 and 7, they are not mature enough now. Maybe the 10 year old can start interpret deeper, but the 7 year old is not able to, he's still at story stage.

So let's open it to Blah's question as well - it's a good one!

well, i'm not sure why you are so uncomfortable by it... my daughter once had a doll that looked like baby spice and sang 'who do you think you are??', and a friend of hers had a britney spears barbie style doll that sang 'baby one more time'.

so i guess i'm jaded, cause honestly, i don't know what the problem is with a bible spouting doll. i think if you had given one of my kids one when they were younger, it would have pretty much just done what all the other dolls did... go for tea at barbies place, and go for a ride in the barbie car with obi wan kenobi and baby spice.

the best thing was when the dolls went swimming, cause then they never spoke ever again... that was always a good day.

the best thing was when the dolls went swimming, cause then they never spoke ever again... that was always a good day.

Sighsnootles ... spoken like a true parent :o)

I remember seeing something on tv about preschoolers in North Korea; while at school, they were bombarded with messages: "Our leader is great", "Our leader will take care of us", "Our leader loves us".

Funny how that popped into my head when I read about the talking Jesus doll.

It reminds me of one of those ads.....How much would YOU pay for eternal salvation? Thirty dollars? Forty? Now eternal salvation can be yours for the low, low price of $19.99..

What will they think of next? Hey, how about Tickle-Me-Jesus??

It encourages the belief that proof-texting (spouting scriptural one-liners) is actually meaningful. On those grounds, if nothing else, I don't like it.

That said, I'd rather have my child spouting scripture versus instead of Britney Spears.

Just my 2 cents, but this is idolatry ... It limits one's imagination, focus and connection to God.

Pretty sure it's only idolatry if someone worships the doll. If so, they have bigger problems than a slightly creepy doll.

That would be so messed up. Imagine if Barney was the central image in a church for the generation that grew up with it ... *shudder*. Imagine how it'll be for these kids/toddlers as they grow up in the Christian faith.

What I find 'dangerous' about any images of GOD, is the inclination to invoke that image during prayer (for me anyway). I find that sometimes I have to concentrate to get that image out of my head before I make a 'true' connection. Or maybe it's just me... :P

Do you pray in "black and white," "colour," or with just words? I ask myself that all the time. I think until we learn to pray in colour we will just be beginners on the spiritual journey.

Aurora - you are too funny! Eternal salvation for the low low price ... LOL!

Rev Matt - I didn't know the term proof-texting before but I'm glad I do now. Think it may be happening on this site in some places...

Parakletos - ooh...scary thought about the kids growing up with this (to your Barney point) ... yes, worth a shudder or two or twelve. And no, it is not only you - I don't have a problem with getting an image out of my head before I make a connection, but I definitely do have a problem trying to get the words of other people out of my head before I can find my own way of connecting. It is so hard for me!

Hey there! Yeah, the talking Jesus doll is pretty cheesy but also kinda funny. It won't be on the wish list at our house. The whole question of whether to introduce religion to kids is an interesting question. My wife and I are certainly hoping to help introduce our kids to a relationship with God rather than "a religion." I've heard folks say that they're going to wait until their kids are old enough to make the choice but then why are we driving kids to hockey practice or gymnastics or ballet at all kinds of crazy early hours of the days. Should we let them just sit on the sofa until they are old enough to decide which sport to choose? I think in many ways we all want to raise our kids to be good people but surely we try to influence their choices in all kinds of things...so why not have them experience the spiritual beliefs we hold...as is often the case if it's not for them they'll simply drift away from church as a teen...and then as some of us did...drift back to church later on.

Just food for thought from a sleepless dad....

Apparently the Marines have refused to distribute this doll as part of their annual toy drive thingy, despite being offered 4000 free ones.

" A far more interesting question is whether children should be taught these things AT ALL, or whether they'd be better served by being introduced to religion at an age when they can understand it and make an informed decision about whether they'd like to be involved in it. "

I disagree. This arguemnt doesn't work because, to a certain degree, all people go through much the same development of faith no matter when they start. True, an older child may move through the early stages around literal belief and metaphor/imagery faster but they will still start there. ANd to not introduce to the faith "until you are old enough" is already teaching something about faith.

Given my choice, the public school system would include from an early grade teaching about spirituality and faith. Not Christianity in general but spirituality and faith in general. This would include an introduction to a variety of faiths. Teaching on specifics of any one faith is the responsibility of the faith community/church/mosque etc.

As to the talking Jesus doll. It is no more aggravting to me than many other towy put there. But it will be interesting to see the public reation--is it going to be seen as blasphemous or the best teaching tool in ages?

Ross, for a sleepless dad you are sounding pretty lucid! In fact, I think I need to think about what you and Gordo both said. Because I've been pretty firm for years on my "wait until you are older" stance echoed by Blah ... but daddy Ross makes an interesting point about how we influence their choices in all kinds of things. He's likely right, too... if it isn't the case for them (from a particular religious standpoing) they will drift away or drift back.

Which relates to the other interesting point made by Gordo ... I need to think about this one, too. Yes, I suppose all people do go through much the same development of faith, don't they? And my "wait until you are older and can make up your mind" position is, I suppose, a statement of faith itself, isn't it? I would really support the public school system teaching about spirituality and faith in general. It is encouraging that at least the public school system does now teach about different faith's religious holidays, although certainly they do it in very broad strokes.

Blah - the Marines may have refused, but I think I read (I don't still have the clipping) that Samaritan's Purse (the Christmas shoebox people) are going to distribute the Jesus dolls.

I dunno. I can see why they'd refuse. Not everyone will be pleased to find that they've been given a doll that spouts scripture.

What does he say? If the'r good thing, it'll get them into kids heads as they use him as Godzilla!

If it says shit like 'smite the unbelievers'....your going to face a Holy War soon enough as well-meaning but unattentive christian parents get these dolls for their kids and go off to watch TV as their kids use the Jesus doll as Godzilla....

You can hear what the dolls say on their website:

http://www.messengersoffaith.net/

I think it's pretty interesting that Jesus looks "buff"... never mind the fact that he speaks English :)

It also seems you get a free copy of the new testament with each purchase:) not bad for 19.95...
I listened to a couple - sounded just like our scripture readings in church - quite dull actually and certainly nothing that could be considered blasphemy that you could construe to be an idol. I also think it would probably be over my grandson's head - he's 5...

He already has a little baby doll that when you push the tummy it says a prayer...
Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
May angels guard me through the night
And keep me till the morning light.

Not like the prayer when I was a child that said "If I should die before I wake... etc."

When I talked with him the other day, it seems he can recite the prayer but has absolutely no idea what it is means - for him it is really just cute sounds with no impact on his darling little psyche or spirituality or whatever...

My grandson comes with me to Sunday School - he likes it, it's fun. When he asked, I have told him that God is always around and he is never alone. The other day, we were in a restaurant and he was playing under the table. When I lifted the tablecloth and asked him what he was doing, he told me to go away, he was talking with God. Children have their own way of dealing with concepts that are sometimes way too deep for us adults. Time to quit worrying, I think. They work things through on their own as the need arises. As long as we don't stuff their darling little heads full, they'll be fine. In my opinion, of course :)

Mammas wrote: Children have their own way of dealing with concepts that are sometimes way too deep for us adults. Time to quit worrying, I think. They work things through on their own as the need arises. As long as we don't stuff their darling little heads full, they'll be fine.
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You sound like one great grandma with a fine wise head on her shoulders!

Good for the Marines! Somehow I'm not surprised about the Samaritan's Purse people. Sigh. As far as letting my children decide at an older age, I guess I've always assumed they would, but wanted them to be part of a loving community. If we believe that it takes a whole village to raise a child, then we as parents are responsible for choosing that village. While I have nothing against the 'hockey village' or 'school village' (my kids are in gymnastics and not homeschooled), I have turned to the 'church village' to be an example to my children, that life is more than competing to win, earning a paycheck and stocking my house with what I buy with that paycheck. Compassion, sharing, justice, etc., and challenging our assumptions on the homeless or the people collecting our foodbank hampers, etc.

I read where the Marines have changed their mind and will give out the Jesus Dolls as they have people who they think would welcome them.
I don't remember if they will also give out the others.

I'm just glad that they are not here as I just might get one from someone with a note that it preaches a good sermon - short.

Why all the hooplah over a "Talking Jesus" doll? I'd assume the people that buy it are people who don't have a problem with their children hearing scriptures. I doubt anyone is going to force this on poor unsuspecting children. And what is the harm in children hearing scriptures anyway? People these days are fine with being "spiritual" and "mindful", everyone's "down" with the yoga and being "zen-full", but people are afraid of religion (I'm sure this is another thread somewhere) but why is that? In a similar vein, I read in another post about parents not wanting to force religion on the children at an early age but having no problem signing them up for music, dance, hockey from a very early age before they can decide for themselves if that's what they really want to do with their Saturdays.

My 4 yr old recently started asking me to take her to church because she's curious and so I have done so. Coincidentally last Xmas, the same daughter was taken to the mall to pick out a present for her newborn sister and she picked out teddy that says the "Now I Lay..." prayer when you hug it. She had never heard that prayer before but said she thought it would make the baby feel safe at night.

Blah wrote:

A far more interesting question is whether children should be taught these things AT ALL, or whether they'd be better served by being introduced to religion at an age when they can understand it and make an informed decision about whether they'd like to be involved in it.

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I don't agree. My parents were atheists and raised me and my sister to be aheists. But it didn't take--we both (independently, and unbeknownst to each other) were baptized in middle age, in a United Church. My children were all grown up by the time I became involved with the church, so they too were raised as atheists. I really regret that now. We don't wait until children are "at an age when they can understand" before teaching them about love. And God is love.

Hovever, I am not advocating for the talking Jesus doll! The talking Jesus is right up there with bobble-head Jesus in tackyness.

There's a vast difference between teaching children the manners they'll need to get function in their society and indoctrinating them in a religion from a young age. Whatever happened to freedom of religion?

I would SO buy a bobble head doll for my car, though! And maybe a second one for my pulpit...

sighsnootles There is a big problem with making doll like our Lord Jesus Christ. Knowing my kids, they didnt always take care of their dolls, sometimes they got lost sometimes left out in the rain. Think of what this could mean

I agree with mammas - children will discern their information in their own way.
Getting caught up and agruing about symbolism is petty and a waste of time
when there are much better things to accomplish. You want a doll, buy one -
don't want one, don't buy one. Either way, here today, gone tommarrow.

I have seen parents buy stock in toy companies to get their children interested in finance.

I have seen parents watch sports with their babies so they can "bond" and learn to love daddy's favourite team.

Parents take their kids to fancy restaurants to help teach them manners.

AND yet some people think we shouldn't take our kids to church but rather let them "find their own path".

Give your heads a shake people!

I agree with Ross that the talking Jesus doll is cheesy, but doesn't freak me out. What a parent talks about regarding the talking Jesus doll will be a lot more important. If a parent doesn't talk about it at all, then it won't mean much to the child anyway.
I also agree with Ross that it's not necessarily a great idea to wait until kids are older to let them choose a religion they like. How will they know what they like if they have no experience of organized religion at all? I think it's important to allow children to have a real experience of religion - not just what faith community to belong to, but what it means to have a relationship with God. That's hard to just start when a certain birthday arrives. It's something you just live and then so do your kids because they live it with you. When they're older, I hope my boys make faith choices that feel right for them, but at the moment, I'm just hoping to give them a foundation from which to make those choices.

Dear Clam,
Talking jesus doll ewwwwwww
pretty revolting.. imo

lets be real ok big corporations..
This Jesus doll should come with a whip...

just my thoughts.. GG

Dear Change,

interesting thoughts wil l keep tossing em around

Peace.GG

"Whatever happened to freedom of religion?"

Children have rights and that includes freedom of religion. I openly discuss with my kids that I don't have very many answers. I let them in on my confusion and my thinking as I muddle along. They aren't told what's "right" or "wrong" - just my thoughts on things. At youth group, they get the thoughts of the leader and other kids. At Church, they get the thoughts of the ministers. When they watch TV, they get the thoughts and values of our society. At school, they get other messages from peers and teachers. They have lots of freedom to come to their own opinions, but I try to make sure that one of the lenses they look at their lives through is a spiritual one.

JesB I agree there is a lot of stuff thrown at kids. No wonder some of the kids are hyper active. Maybe we should look to the root of our faith. As Our Lord Jesus said I am the vine, you are the branches abide in me."

If Christ Jesus was capable of violence when the zeal for his Father's house consumed him and he wound up using a whip to drive the merchants from the temple, how absurd is it to expect behaviour any less extreme from his imperfect disciples?

I can recall of toys which mimic barn animals and other creatures of the earth, but it's a slap in the face to try to cement the words of God into children's heads via cheap commercial enterprise. My experience is that this sort of thing ultimately leads to satanism and beyond.

Furthermore, in a world where achetypes extend anywhere from long dead virtuosoes to Henson's muppets, it is far from wise to create that kind of impression in the minds of the next generations.

Yeah, I think the talking Jesus doll is a little cheesy and disrespectful. I think it is good for children to listen to scripture but I'd rather buy them a story book with a CD about Jesus.

As to "waiting until children get old enough to make an informed decision" are you also not letting your child read the newspaper, watch TV, and homeschooling? Basically, you would need to not let your child out of the house until they get old enough to do anything like ballet, music lessons, hockey, etc. until they are old enough to not let anything influence them.

If you are not influencing your children the world is. It not cramming religion down their throat to take them to Church. You are taking them to be with people and they are going to sing and listen to a story about Jesus. When they move out they can chose to go to Church or not. But going to Church is a wonderful family time. The Bible lessons for children teach character lessons like not cheating, not lying, not stealing, etc. The world today is in need to simple character lessons like this. Unless you prefer that they should make their own value choices about lying, stealing, murdering, etc. A lot of parents feel that way and studies have shown that since Sunday School attendance has gone down the jail population has increased.

RevMatt, you have made a serious error in judgement by equating disrespectful wtih progressive. I don't think that you represent a dominant voice within the UCC, I am glad to say.

New representations of Jesus appear quite frequently, some of them quite controversial, e.g., the image made the front pages a few years ago of Jesus as androgynous and racially ambiguous. Some folks hated, I loved it. It said to me that Christ appears to many people in many ways. The doll under discussion is simply a trashy disrespectful representation that only ridicules Christ and Christianity.

I'd buy that doll just so I could hack it to say stuff from the Necronomicon, then return it to the store... heh heh.

LOL@Diana Tickle Me Jesus Doll