Seeler, that has to be more difficult when the parents aren't living together.

For little things and when the kids aren't really young, would it be appropriate to have different rules at different houses?  There are different rules at school, clubs and home, so I don't think that would be too out there for kids.

Real life:

Teenager is going though a bad place.  She doesn't like her gym teacher.  She hasn't been seeing much of her friends lately.  She's been moody, sad. 

She phones from school that she isn't feeling well.  She has cramps and gym class is next.  Mom tells her to tough it out.  She phones ten minutes later, 'Can you come and get me.  I feel sick.'   Mom takes her home.  She sleeps through the afternoon and feels better.

Evening comes.  A friend phones and invites her to a gathering at his place.  His parents will be home. A half dozen kids are coming over.  For the first time in over a month she wants to go out.  Who will drive her?   Before Mom can say anything, Dad speaks up.  "Nobody will be driving you.  You came home sick.  You stay in for the weekend."  End of discussion.   Should Mom intervene?  Girl really wants to go.  Mom knows that a rest is sometimes all that is needed for menstral cramps.  Mom wants to see her socializing with a good group of friends. 

What to do?

What if it is an even more serious situation?  What if one parent is physically or emotionally abusive? 

It sounds like in this case you're talking about a couple that is together, right?

If so, compromise.  School should be a priority, IMO, and she can go after she catches up on what she missed at school.

I don't actually agree with missing school just because of cramps.  Gym can be sat out (and that's a good time to catch a bit of a nap).  If there are GI problems, or fainting or something that comes along with the cramps that's when it's a good idea to stay home.  I would grab naps when I could when I had my period.  Right after school, between dance classes, etc.

If it was another illness, it depends.  Some things do only last a day or two.  If someone goes out, are they going to be tired and not focused at school on Monday?  If so, I side with the Dad.

If there's abuse, it's best to not be around that person.  It's time to involve the police, get a restraining order, or whatever fits the situation.  That's extremely different from just disagreeing.

Whether together or apart, in the samee room or bby phone calls, the results are the same.  You think school should come first.  Mom is equally concerned with social development.  Dad makes a rule and feels it should be stuck to regardless of circumstances.    I don't see the opportunity for compromise.  She missedd gym - there is no way to 'catch up'.  She'll miss the party.  Mom will feel guilty.  Dad will be the heavy.  

There are cramps - and there are cramps.  In this case they are bad enough that she is under doctor's care and takes medicine.  But sometimes she seems incapicated.  I never had severe menstral cramps.  I don't know if this is something she could toough out or not.  I believe her when she says she is isn pain.

Some schools, some teachers - gym can be sat out.  Not when your teacher is a male jocck wwho doesn't understand that a girl can be incapacitated, even with a note from the doctor at the beginning of the term.

Another illness?  Like allergies or breathing problems or headaches?   

Abuse?  yes, severe abuse is time to take the kids and flee to the nearest shelter.  But how do you identify abuse?   Mom might tap a toddlers fingers when he reaches for a forbidden object - Dad might not believe in physical restraint of any kind.  Dad might tell hiss son over and over that he is clumsy and stupid, or call his daughter a slut because she is interested in boys.  Is that emotional abuse?  Would you call the police?  Break up a marriage?  Try to help them understand their father (or mother)?   Try to make it up to them when dad (or mom) isn't around?

Parenting isn't easy.  There are often no right answers - just shades of grey to be fumbled through.

The mother should give the father advice, and let him know what she thinks, speaking the truth in love. Then she should humbly step back and let him make the final decision. 

Seeler, I wrote the above coming from experience.  Most people I know who have the really bad cramps also have other issues too.  When the cramps are at their worst is also usually when the fainting, vomitting or diarrhea hit.

Unless the doctor says otherwise, I believe in toughing it out, along with using the medications, wearing comfortable clothing and slipping my shoes off in class and sitting so I felt more comfortable.  They didn't have them when I was in school, but there are also now those sticky heat patches that provide some relief.  My sister got to take advantage of those when she was in high school.

While it makes it more difficult when a gym teacher isn't reasonable, they cannot force someone to participate.  A doctor's note does not have to be detailed.  It can be as simple as this person has a medical issue that flares up and they are unable to participate in gym class when this occurs.  If the gym teacher is still a problem, then have that check in person be someone else - maybe whoever the contact is when a student goes home sick.   If gym is the last class, then it would make sense to just go home.

If I had a child being abused by my husband, yes, I would break up a marriage.  Abuse isn't just one comment though.  If something inappropriate is said by one parent, I think it's better if parents do not have a united front at that time.

You forgot the part where they step back into the time machine and move back into the 21st century.

Jae, how far does this advice go?   What if the mother truly elieves that Dad's attitudes or methods asre detrimental or dangerous to the child?  What if  the son wants to persue a career in the church, and his father is determined that he should become an engineer?  Or a daughter wants to become a banker and the father doesn't believe in educating girls beyond the basics? 

Imho...

The mother in question should serve God first and not allow the father to put the child at risk.

As to the questions about the kids -- it would depend on their ages. It is the parents' responsibility to raise their children in the way that they think they should go. So, for example, while the son is a boy, the father should be encouraging him to become an engineer. 

Once the children become adults, they can decide for themselves what career path to pursue. So, for example, once the son becomes a man, the son should choose what job he actually goes after.

Again, imho.

what, you mean that parents no longer meld into one being??? has the world GONE CRAZY!!! sheesh...christians...always trying to change things :3

Don't both parents have strengths andd weaknesses.  In an ideal situation it seems to me that they would work together to complement each other for the good of the child.  It would involve discussion, listening, compromise.  But what often seems to happen is conflict, disagreement, confused messages given to the children. 

I'm wondering what one parent should do if the other insists on his (or her) way and refuses to discuss or compromise - but goes so far as to contradict the other. 

"Yes Jimmy.  You are old enough to ride your bike over to your friend's house.  Wear your helmet, remember your safety rules, be careful, and have fun."

Two hours later - "Jimmy, what were you doing taking your bike out on the street.  Just for that you are grounded for the weekend.  And I'm putting your bike in the shed.  I don't care what your mother said.  I said you don't ride on the street."

or  "What do you mean, your mother gave you permission to go to the dance.  You're only fourteen.  I'll not have you running the roads to all hours and acting like a slut."

What's the other parent to do?

Jae, you didnt do such a good job parenting your step children. Wasn't easy was it? I remember those parenting threads that you posted.

Hi seeler,

Sure it is.

So long as one parent isn't giving the kids the old wink, wink, nudge, nudge, I'll talk to the unhip parent and set them straight routine then a unified front on parenting is easy.

Provided the parents are okay with the following:

1)  Changing their position from a previous position.

2)  Allowing for negotiation on negotiable stuff.

It also helps to talk with your partner about stuff before it happens so that the unified parenting team knows what they are united about and in which way they are united.

No one parent should ever be responsible for always saying no and no one parent should always get to say yes.

And when kids successfully triangulate and pit the parents into conflict with one against the other parents should be willing to step back, identify the problem and unify in dealing with it.

Our kids learned early on that getting a no from one parent, pretending the question wasn't asked and then going to the other parent hoping to get a favourable response would work some of the time.  And when it was discovered all privileges, including those negotiated, would be suspended because of the inherent disrespect of going behind one parent's back.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Seeler, the slut comments are one of those cases where I think it's important for the other parent to jump in.  Do you actually know someone who says things like this to their daughter?

How about when the kid gets an enthusiastic 'yes' from one parent.  Like "Congratulations for getting an important role in the school musical production.  That's great.  You are going to havee to work hard to attend reheasrsals and keep your grades up, but I'm sure you can do it." 

The kid accepts the role, makes plans, arranges transportation home from rehersals.  Then the other parent steps in.  "No, you can't go out on a school night.   No arguing.  Forget it.  Your school work comes first." 

So what has the kid learned?  What has the first parent learned?  The second parent?

Real life doesn't always have the parents communicating well.  Good, well meaning people have different ideas, different life experiences, different ideas about what their role should be, and different ways of communicating. 

If it's a recurrent problem ... maybe couples counselling is warranted.  Might be a powerstruggle between partners, not really about the kids.

I'm with John - communication is crucial.  And if there's a history of disputes, it becomes even more so - so when permissions are granted, or not - then timely communication to the other parent is most important.

When there are substantial disagreements in style, sometimes both parents going to a parenting course can be really helpful - so things can be ratcheted back from 'my way vs. your way' to 'what did we hear, let's figure out together how to approach this' - both save face. But it does require a willingness to change, and relinquish power.

This lack of communication indicates that the parents don't pay attention to things like school.  It is why parental teams should have the discussions around expectations first before the requests are made and not in the moment.

We encouraged extra-curriculars and we made it clear that extra-curriculars would always be sacrificed if the student didn't live up to expectations.  That way there weren't two sets of parental expectations or "rules." 

If it is a continuous state of affairs the kid has learned that they can't trust their parents and the parents have learned that they can't trust one another

While true the only problem is not learning from mistakes.  Parents can own up to their short-comings and change their minds on decisions made.  The only real mistake that is difficult to step away from is criticizing your partner in front of the kid.

While true if parents don't work on those differences with the intent to reconcile them before the children are born then they wasted 9 months of gestation by not discussing how to team parent the coming child.

And even if they did waste that 9 months they have lots of time to get caught up.

Grace and peace to you.

John

You make it sound sso simple.  The big problem is how to step away from being critized or contradicted in front of the kid without being a whimp who doesn't mind, or is unable or unwilling to standd up for what you believe is right for your kid.  At what price do you present a united front? 

Revjohn, do you think it's a mistake to criticize your partner if they are out of line (aka the slut comment)?

I agree a united front is ideal, but comments like that are already far from the ideal range.

I have to say that I hated it when my parents presented a unified front on an issue that they didn't necessarily agree with each other about. It felt like it was two against one - and I felt I was always the odd one out. I could often hear my parents discussing the issue, while I was in another room and I would know, therefore, that one parent was on my side and one was not.

At work, we often have a similar issue - the kids will ask one leader for something and if they say "no," sometimes they will go to another leader. We leaders have an unwritten rule - the second leader always backs up whatever the first one said, regardless of whether or not we agree with it. The kids quickly learn to stop doing this as it rarely works!

Parenting is so challenging.

  I'm not sure that anyone can 'fix' a parenting problem that belongs to a different marriage.  Ideally, as has been pointed out, the parents would chat about possible scenarios they may have to deal with before they happen.  Many things can be expected to change as the kids grow older - it would be silly to decide on a suitable bedtime for a four year old and never adjust that time!  

  Certainly, in situations that are getting confrontational between the adults I would recommend some sort of help - counselling or a parenting course - either would give the adults opportunities to discuss and share ideas without the kids around and without having to decide on the topic 'right now'.   Not sure how this sort of thing gets resolved if one parent is so authoritarian (or a control freak) and refuses to discuss because they are determined to set ultimatums.

Neither do I know how to help with situations where one parent is trying to 'buy' the affections of the children (after a divorce, for example).  Children need their parents to be functioning as caring adults - not feuding children!  The person I know who is dealing with that type of scene is being totally honest with the children.  "Dad and I BOTH love you - we just have different understandings of what that means.  If dad wants to keep buying you things that is HIS decision.  I buy what I think you need."

Hi seeler,

It isn't simple.  That's why you practice doing it all the time.  And you know, that kind of maturity is useful in other venues of life as is the requisite humility that comes with it.

Not necessarily.  There are rules of engagement and it you are smart you and your spouse have discussed this well in advance of anybody needing to be reminded of the rules.  Language used would be one such category of rule.

The slut comment, in our house, is an out of bounds comment.  Anyone stepping over that line is reminded and the appropriate response when reminded is to recant the statement.  If admitting that you have made a mistake is wimpy then no wonder the world has problems.

Criticism of the partner is also out of bounds.  Anyone stepping over that line is also reminded and the appropriate response is to recant the criticism.  Again, if admitting that you have made a mistake is wimpy then no wonder the world has problems.

Being the partner criticized means that your immediate response should not be retaliation (that is simply immature and makes a bad situation worse) it should be an immediate appeal to the groundrules and, if it is necessary because people are emoting more than they are thinking a time-out for all parties should be called for.

As far as what is right for "my" kid.  I believe as a parent I am standing up for what I believe is right for "our" kid.  Because my personal experiences differ from those of my wife we do not weigh issues and outcomes in the same way.  The place to resolve those issues is not in front of the kid where the kid will chime in only to divide opinion (not a deliberate action but a natural one).

If one parent walks away from the discussion then the discussion ends until such time as that parent is willing to be a part of it and there are rules for walking away that forbid it from being used to get one's own way.

Speaking personally I weigh the price of a united front against the price of a divided one and I believe that the higher price is paid by parenting teams that cannot or will not co-operate or simply do not know how to.

My wife and I do not see eye to eye on every single issue.  When disagreement becomes evident we will put the issue on the back burner and retreat to a relatively private place to discuss what our response will ultimately be.  This discussion is not about whose way is right or better, this discussion is about what we believe is best for the kid and where concerns are raised how to mitigate against them.

When we have arrived at a decision together we will then go to the kid with that decision.  Further discussion with the kid happens with both parents knowing what is at stake for the other and, both parents negotiate further protecting the other parent's concerns.

For example, in our house we dealt with the mundane bit of ear piercing at a what I believe was a fairly early age.  Unsurprisingly I was not as enamoured of the idea as were my daughters and wife.  So, conversation at the table was suspended, my wife and I discussed the issue and we both laid all our cards on the table.  The result was Ear-piercing would be allowed at age X but, before consent was to be given each daughter had to be fully aware of how to prevent infection and care for the piercing.

When the discussion was rejoined my wife made it very clear that in the discussion I had raised points which were valid concerns and might be beyond their level of responsibility at the time.  My daughters, unhappy with the minimum age being a year away for one and two years for the other accepted that they would have to demonstrate better responsibility for themselves and they waited.  Limits were also placed on what other parts could be pierced and how frequently.

In my personal opinion whenever one parent is willing to allow the parent/child relationship to trump the spousal relationship that family has serious problems.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi chemgal,

Criticize or correct?  They aren't the same thing.

I believe it is a mistake to criticize a partner for being out of line (kind of like hitting someone to show how bad hitting others is right?)  Correcting a partner is not out of line provided one does it appropriately.

So, if the language employed goes where it shouldn't in our house.  There is a time-out for all involved.  The discussion resumes when everyone is clear what was out of bounds and is willing to take responsibility for it.  In this case, an apology for language used.

Agreed.  One can't get back into the ideal range by continuing to step away from it.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Revjohn, that makes a lot of sense.

I don't suppose you want to travel to Alberta for marriage counselling?  Chemguy and I still haven't gotten to that, even though we planned to shortly after the wedding.

Hi chemgal,

Thank you no.

However I have some colleagues in Alberta that I might be able to hook you up with.  :)

Grace and peace to you,

John

We've had our challenges, as I'm sure every parent and children have.

Having said that, I'm very proud of both of my sons.

Suppose the parent using language you think inappropriate doesn't see anything wrong with it, or that he (or she) doesn't see any need to appologize. 

Sorry, I didnt mean you did a poor job, I just read my post and want to change it to "challenging job of parenting your step children" And I am sure you are proud of your  kids as we  all are.

Hi seeler,

Then there is a real problem and not, I think, one that will be easily remedied by further conflict.

Because there are boundaries, and always have been boundaries around the use of language in our house we all know when boundaries have been crossed.  A visitor to our house may not know what those boundaries are and we wouldn't sit them down and give them a lecture to explain to them what those boundaries are.  Hopefully, we would model language barriers and that would be enough.

If it wasn't then we gently point out what the boundaries are, in our house.  Those who respect them will not likely cross that barrier again and those who do tend to understand without prompting what is called for when they cross that boundary.

If they don't respect the boundaries within our house we reserve the right to ask them to leave.  I'm happy to report that is not something that we have had to do.  Most guests in our home respect our boundaries even if they wouldn't have them in their own homes.

I don't know how to respond to the idea that my wife or myself would simply violate a boundary and have no concern for anybody who protested that violation.  That is the whole purpose of having the conversations about boundaries early on in the relationship.

At any rate what is or isn't appropriate is a boundary issue and in relationships boundaries should be real and they should be respected.  My boundaries do not exist to push others around, they exist to keep me comfortable.  At the same time because I am in close proximity to others my boundaries do not trump the boundaries of others.

I might feel perfectly comfortable parading around the house wearing nothing but a smile and cheeto dust (Just an illustration--I hate cheetos.  Well, not hate, they are not the snackfood of preference).  The rest of my family, loving me deeply, are not comfortable with me walking around so attired.  So boundaries clash.

Because I am mature I know how family works and if the majority are uncomfortable with my personal expression of freedom then my boundaries need to shrink to the point where I don't do that.  Expecting everybody else to change their boundaries is selfishness at worst and immaturity at best.

It should be said that there are plenty of times when family members cros lines in our house and few, in the heat of the moment ever believe that they were in the wrong whild doing it.  Those who decide to retaliate ultimately end up having to recant themselves.  Those who clearly state that a boundary has been crossed, without demanding an apology, tend to get one even if it is some days later.

Whether the parent thinks that the language they use is inappropriate doesn't change the fact that others do and injury has occurred.  It the parent is unable to comprehend that or unwilling to reconcile for doing that then the family needs help.

Grace and peace to you.

John