For those who study Bible prophecy, this is not at all surprising and it's going to get much worse.  The U.S. has largely turned its back on God and they are reaping what they are sowing.

The same will happen in Canada once PM Harper has been removed from office.  The only thing we have going for us is Harper's unflinching support for Israel.  Once he's out of office, it'll get ugly.

And, no, the MSM does not report this stuff.

I feel dumber for having read that.

And remember:  Because it's all part of the BIblical prophesy, there's nothing anyone can/should do about it!  It's all a part of God's great plan.  Better not oppose it.  Right, Lookin Up?

The dumbing down of the collective psyche is God's plan for humanity, eh? Yeah, right!

I guess it depends on which god you're talking about, eh Arm?

Yes, Azd. My God is not dumbing down the human psyche but evolving it toward ever higher states of awareness and consciousness.

But my God is the collective cosmic psyche, of which each indvidual psyche is a small part that contributes to the evolution of the cosmic psyche: an evolution of the cosmic psyche, by the cosmic psyche. A self-evolution, if you will, just like cosmic creation is a self-creation.

And those of us who are aware of the process of self-creation and self-evolution can be active co-creators and co-evolvers in this process, intentionally evolving ourselves and God toward ever higher stages of awareness.

The biggest story ever, eh?

Maybe...but this is getting a little off-track from Graeme's OP, isn't it?  I guess that was inevitable:  How can we even begin to address the corruption in our governments, if our first response is that it's supposed to be this way because, you know, the Bible says so?

I don't think the majority of Canadians support the view that there is corruption because the Bible says so, and this is why it is pointless to oppose corruption.

Could some people be so misguided that they would hasten corruption—or Armageddon or any other biblical prophecy—just in order make the prophecy come true!? Subconcsiously perhaps?

The absolutist zeal with which some people believe in biblical prophecies almost makes one think they might act to make these prophecies come true.

It is not surprising that a Government is spying on its citizens because... the end of the world.  Okay.  That makes sense.  Hey, haven't there been a lot of governments, over a very long period of time, who spied on their citizens a lot more?  And haven't there even been entire centuries where the average government was sending its citizens to die in stupid land-grab wars, thus, taking away all the rights of their citizens?  But yeah, you're right.  This time it's a sign of the end of the world for sure.  This time is different.  Because... reasons. 

You want to study Bible prophecy?  Here's a predicition: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority."

Do you believe God is eternal?  If you do, why the rush?  I mean, as far as an eternal being would be concerned, Jesus was just here a second ago.  I mean, even if it's a billion years from now, to an eternal being, Jesus will have just left, but still.  I mean, reall,y 2000 years?  That's awful quick.  I mean, to a person, sure, that seems like a pretty long time to have waited.  But an eternal being could take a trillion years to blink once.  Maybe he wants to wait a couple blinks before he calls us quits. 

And, of course, here's another bit of logic: It's always been pretty bad.  Wars and rumours of war have been pretty constant.  Know the number of wars on Earth right now?  2.  That's pretty much the lowest ever.  How is it that, if we're to look for wars and all that stuff, then the most peaceful time in history is an indication of the end?  Unless you're going by the "feeling" that there are a lot of wars.  A feeling you got from the MSM covering a few scattered conflicts as if they are eternal wars and a decreasing crime rate in most Western Countries as though they were increases. 

See, if you're going to literally interpret the Bible, and then ignore the part about the end coming as a surprise, even to you, and then try to predict on increased issues, here's a hard truth:

More people are alive than ever before.  Less people are fighting in wars than ever before.  And the UN has now announced that there are more obese people in the world than those suiffering from hunger.  Yes, the signs are everywhere.  We are truely in the end times. 

I'm not saying we don't have some major issues, but they're certainly not in the places you're looking, or any other "Biblical prophecy" people.  And if wars were to be a sign, I'm still pretty surprised the cold war ended.  I mean, that had to be a pretty easy time to shut the place down, if anyone wanted to.  But nope.  Not WW2 or WW1 either.  Nope.  None of the huge, super deadly wars.  But now, I mean, there are 2 whole wars!  And one is a cival war in a poor country!  And the other is wrapping up.  Man, talk about your end times!

And if political curruption was to be a sign, absolute monarchy, slavery, Empire building, and serfism were pretty bad compared to how much of the world lives today.  I figured it was supposed to get worse before the end.  Go figure I guess. 

The only one who mentioned end times is you.  There is a lot of prophecy that has nothing to do with end times.  Here's an example...

“The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God” (Psalm 9:17)

Look at the economic state of many European countries that were once God-honouring who now are not.  They're broke and unsafe.  The U.S. is another nation on the brink of collapse with Detroit being the first domino and many more in line to follow.

BHO is friendly toward America's enemies and hostile toward her allies.  50 years ago, the God fearing citizens would not have stood for this let alone elect him to a 2nd term.

The DHS has ordered 1.3 billion rounds of hollow point ammunition while taking steps aimed at disarming the citizens of the ability to protect themselves.  They expect a civil uprising and will bring it about themselves - the Occupy movement was just the beginning.

When America was a God-honouring nation, she thrived beyond that of any nation in history.  Now, America as a nation has rejected God and God has given them the leaders they deserve and those leaders are systematically destroying America.  Recovery is mathematically impossible.

Canada has also rejected God and will suffer the same consequences.

Looking Up, the hurricanes and tornadoes and oil spills are being directed by your God primarily toward the bible belt. If God wants to send a message to Americans, why hit the people who are actually crazy enough to believe in him?

And recovery is not mathematically impossible. I'm guessing you are in no position to apply odds to a dice game, let alone an economic recovery.

Finally, your reporting of hollow point bullet orders was interesting, so I googled it. It's in all the best tinfoil-hat-wearing news outlets, like Free Republic and InfoWars and other Christian nutcase sites. Unsurprisingly, Snopes sets things straight, though you won't believe them because they are reasonable people.

Nothing you wrote above makes any damn sense. You're following alarmist propaganda from people like Glenn Beck, and you look like an idiot for doing so. These guys get debunked time and again. Get your head out of the derp.

When America was a God-honouring nation, she thrived beyond that of any nation in history.  Now, America as a nation has rejected God and God has given them the leaders they deserve and those leaders are systematically destroying America.  Recovery is mathematically impossible.

 

 

This is why critical thinking courses should be required in school, with regular renewal courses required every 3 years or so for anyone wanting to vote or own property.

When America was God fearing?  Like when you could own black people?  Back in those good ol' days of Christian love?  Yeah, because God is up there and he's pissed now because... reasons.  Meanwhile, when they had slaves he was like "great stuff guys.  Keep up the good work." 

But, no, NOW they are Godless.  Not when women and minorities couldn't vote.  Nope.  God hates those people.  He was happier then. 

What Bible do you read exactly?  If God was going to get mad at Godlessness, North Americans (and Westerners in general) have been A LOT worse before than we are now.  If he was going to get all up in arms, I think he probably would have let us have it by now.  I mean, all this "Godlessness" you're complaining about is a lot better than, say, owning a person as property.  If you don't agree, I find you unbelieveably terrifying.

LMAO!

/used to be quite the Atari fan

//800XL

Who said anything about  hurricanes and tornadoes and oil spills?

The federal debt now exceeds the GDP.  Manufacturing is leaving the country and going to China.  The only real increase in employment is in the government.  More than 1/2 of the citizens are on some sort of government support with no hope of getting a job.  Obamacare is driving employers to hire only part-time staff because they cannot afford the premiums. 

They are going to hit the debt ceiling by this October.  They have already raised it twice (or is it 3 times - I don't recall).  They cannot even pay the interest on the debt let alone pay down the debt itself.  And there is no sign of any new source of revenue other than taxes.  Take a huge negative number and add another negative number and you get a bigger negative number.  Where can you possibly see anything that will turn that around especially when BHO is spending tens of millions of dollars on lavish family vacations?  He certainly doesn't care.

There has been talk for years about the US dollar being dropped from being the reserve currency.  Iran, China and Russia are already conducting trade in non-US currency and if the US dollar ceases to be the reserve currency, the country will collapse literally overnight.

Alex Jones should be ignored and I follow my own advice in that regard.

Here's the press release from defense contractor Alliant Techsystems...

http://atk.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=25280&item=124123

In case you don't want to read it, here's an exerpt...

I heard from reliable sources that the 450 million was increased via two more orders since this press release to a total of 1.3 billion rounds between the DHS and the Social Security Administration.  Why on earth would the Social Security folks need hollow point ammo?  Good question.

No surprise here.  You have a remarkable bias toward Christians and think we are idiots simply because we know something you don't.   I really hope you snap out of it because there is an awful lot of stuff going on that is handy to know about.

I read an interesting quote one time that is apparently true...

"Man will believe anything as long as it's not in the Bible."

Most Christians don't say stuff that dumb.  You do a disservice to Christianity by equating rejection of, or bias against, your own dumb ideas with a rejection of Christianity.  Chansen objects to both, of course, but not always at the same time, and one should be able to discern the difference.  As for Christians, Graeme would probably prefer in this thread to be raising awareness of a real-world problem in the hopes that humans might do something about it, than to attribute it to supernatural punishment for worshipping the wrong gods, or no gods.  The latter practice has a poor track-record.  I'm sure Graeme will correct me if I'm wrong about his focus.  Anyway, my main point:  Christianity does not require one to view the negative happenings in this world as punishments for present-day human behaviour.  Objecting to that point of view does not in itself require a rejection of Christianity.

if i may attempt a translation, Looking Up, what you are saying is that you see the USA as largely having turned its back on looking out for their fellow human being as the highest ideal and, as such, are reaping what they have sown in their selfishness?

And that you think a similar thing will happen when Harper leaves office?

When Harper and his god-fearing conservatives leave office, Canada will descend into godless liberalism, atheism, and socialism. Heaven forbid!

I pray that happens, Arminius. Then Canada can move back towards a civilized society.

Yes!

can't wait for 'the world's most embarrassing raptures'

//Chansen: There are  two kinds of people: the ones who like Atari and bad people.  :) /

As for Graeme's original topic, this sort of thing really in very important.  I hold certain beliefs in common with libertarians, and one of them is that we have to guard against encroachments on our personal privacy and rights to things like freedom of speech at all costs.  In my previous persona here (Frommian) I even got accused of being a libertarian a couple times for arguing against things like "hate speech" legislation. 

So I see how important this issue is.

However, the idea that the MSM doesn't report on a lot of things, or doesn't report well on them is, in my opinion, almost always false.  It's just a little piece of psychology we call the hostile media effect.  The further to one side or the other you are, the more you will feel it. 

There are, of course, biased media outlets: Fox News for example.  And there are really, really dumb media outlets that wouldn't know journalism if it bit them (CNN for example), but for the most part, bias is in the eye of the beholder. 

You can now get 10 years for wearing a mask if you are not on an APPROVE protest march route or site. That's the law.

I hope our judiciary continue to make sense of some of the insane, paranoid, controlling legislation that's coming down in Canada.

the price of freedom is eternal vigilance

damn those governments -- so beautiful & so tyrranical...

Harper has always stood up for Israel? Oh? How? Tell me a single thing he has DONE to support Israel.

Lots of talk. No action at all. However, his position has done what it was supposed to do - lock up the Jewish vote in Canada. Those Jews who think Israel are wrong are now cast out in a minority - and the whole free-thinking ethic of Judaism that used to exist has gone.

As to news sources being corrupt and lying, almost every news outlet in the world is corrupt and lying. There are booka  about it. the list of liars includes the most admired - like The New York Times. For the real pits, You have to read the Irving-owned papers of New Brunswick.

The company being investigated for the Lac Megantic disaster is Irving Oil. It knowingly took severe risks with that cargo of crude oil. It also gave regulators a false manifesto of the volatility of the cargo. Now, 47 people are dead. The fingers point straignt at Irving. But not a single newspaper ini New Brunswick has mentioned it. (He owns them all.) In fact, the only coverage I've seen of it is CBC.

How much about irving's role have you seen in your paper?

Hi graeme,

None that I can recall.  It is a local that Sun Media bought up a few years ago.  The only tangible benefit I have noticed is that the Toronto Sun has stopped calling and trying to get us to take out a subscription.  If it weren't for the local news component I'd cancel my subscription.

That said, The Financial Post, Globe and Mail and Toronto Star all ran stories on Irving Oil's mislabelling of the crude on the train.

I'm not sure how that mislabelling causes the train to crash (I don't think it does)  I can see how firefighters thinking they were fighting flammable liquid X might have a problem with flammable liquid Y although I don't know that the difference should matter that much.  Earliy reports suggest that things were well out of hand before the fire Department could respond to the derail, spill and fire in town.

Which is not me saying that the mislabelling is not a serious matter.  I'm just not sure how much it actually contributes to the failure of the train to stay on the tracks when it has become a runaway.  I suspect that the powers that be will use the mislabelling as an opportunity to recoup recovery expenses.

Grace and peace to you.

John

the correct labelling might have focrced the Tansport Safety Bureau to forbid the delivery of such a volatile cargo on a one-engineer train on questionable track. As well, correct labelling enables local fire departments to get a heads up of what is coming their way.

If the mis labelling was not a serious factor, then why would Irving take the very serious step of doing it?

The wreck of course,  was caused by the use of one engineer who had to leave the train on its own with the engine running every night. It would be interesting to know who made that change in the rules, and why.

A train crash with ordinary crude, as declared, would have been messy, but not nearly so dangerous. The cargo didn't create the crash - but it made the crash into a far, far bigger disaster than it would otherwise have been.

The nature of the cargo did not send the train off the tracks. But it did cause it to explode.

That combination killed 47 people. laws were played with and laws were changed and laws were broken. I don't think we can write that off as "not a serious matter".

I note, too,that no-one has asked whether those shipments are still happening. Minimally, this is a story that needs a lot of digging and a lot of information. I don't think an event that killed so many people should be casually shrugged off..

If I did, I would have neither grace nor peace.

Hi graeme,

I may very well have.  Neither of us know that it would have.  And if it didn't then there would have been nothing to stop events from unfolding as they did.  Since the firefighters were not at the scene waiting for blaze to break out it is likely that the explosion would still have happened.

As far as I am aware the TSB has not released what they believe to be the chain of events which caused the disaster.  To date the most plausible causes are human error (the train company has alread attempted to blame the conductor for not setting sufficient hand brakes) or a mechanical failure (the same train company, through their own investigation appears to blame a broken piston).

It is unlikely that improper labelling influences the number of hand brakes that need to be set or causes pistons to break.

I didn't say mis labelling wasn't serious.  I simply don't know that it is the cause of the disaster.

Leaving the train alone appears to have been a regular operations matter.  I don't know what the reason is for that.  If it isn't a good idea to leave a car idling I cannot imagine it is a good idea to leave a locomotive idling.  Mind you, if someone steals my car they can go almost anywhere they want and if somebody steals a train well the getaway options are limited to forward or backward.

It is also my understanding that MMA did not follow the proper protocols to gain a permit to run this train with a single engineer.  That has nothing to do with how the cargo is labelled it has everything to do with how trains run in general.

True.  The crude was labelled PG 3 when it should have been labelled PG 2.  Petroleum Crude in PG 3 has a higher flashpoint (between 23 and 60 C) than does Petroleum Crude in PG 2 (flashpoint less than 23 C)  The flashpoint is the lowest temperature at which a liquid will evaporate and mix with air rendering the substance flammable.  The substance still needs an ignition source and at flashpoint once the ignition source is removed the vapour may cease to burn.

Without knowing the actuall circumstances at the time of the explosion it would be difficult to determine whether the labelling would have actually prevented the disaster.

Agreed.  Though the lower flashpoint may have been moot depending upon the ignition source.

I agree we cannot write that off as not a serious matter.  We should be able to determine whether or not it is causitive and I don't think that anybody is saying that the mislabelling is causitive at this point in time.

As far as I am aware the ignition source has not been identified and we have not seen any indication that a proper labell would have prevented the ignition source from actually igniting the crude.

While I think that Irving definitely needs to be held to account.  This most likely was not the first time such mislabelling has happened.

I think that MMA bears a larger burden of responsibility because it was their equipment or personnel, utlimately, which failed.

I do not know what kind of inspections happen to ensure that all freights are properly labelled.  Nor do I know that anyone other than those responsible for loading the cars checks the contents.  If it is important enough to have them labelled in the first place I would think it is important enought to have the contents checked.

Is there a rate change between PG 3 and PG 2 freights?  That might explain why a company would falsify labelling.  If there is no change in rate then what is the motive to mislabel the freight?  If there is a change in rate make the higher rate the going rate for all freights.

I expect that SPTO (Single Person Train Operation = 1 Engineer) operations will need to be looked at with further scrutiny as well as the practice of leaving locomotives to idle unsecured.  Handbrakes, unless the handwheel is locked with a chain, are far from secure.

The locomotives became uncoupled from the rest of the train.  I have no idea how significant that is.  It strikes me that the locomotives would be substantially heavier than the freight cars  I have no idea if that helps them to stay on the tracks or not..  The mechanics of the derailment need to be examined, was the track pooly maintained and is the condition of the track a contibuting factor.  If so how can similar failures be prevented and what kind of track maintenance is required?

While I don't think that Irving Oil should get away scott free.  I do not think that their mislabelling of the crude, caused the derailment and without knowing what the ignition source was I don't know if the subsequent explosion could have been avoided.

That said, MMA has approached the courts about bankruptcy protection which suggests that they will not be able to cover the damages when they are eventually set.  Since Irving's mislabelled product is what exploded they should be on the hook in some way and if they want to sue MMA to recoup their losses for that payout they can get in line like other creditors.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Well, there are certainly a lot of excuses in there.

the reality is that Irving, with long experience of railroading and ownership of a  railway, hired a company with a terrible safety record, loaded it with oil (while misinforming the proper authorities), and went with a single engineer despite the obvious risks. It is not possible that Irving Oil did not know the risks it was taking with other people's lives.

The firemen, though quickly reacting, had no idea what they were dealing with or what was needed (such as huge quantities of foam. The cars were constructed as to break up in a collision and, with that cargo, a terrible fire was certain.  irving Oil knew all that.

And I do have to wonder who it was that changed the rules regarding the number of engineers just last year. And I wonder what this has to do with Irving's great hurry to get oil to h is refineries in St. John.

47 people are dead. And whatever excuses may be made, it is quite clear that a combination of factors, most of them deliberately created by Irving, caused this disaster.

And it was all done to make maximum profit. He takes relatively cheap crude from the west, then ships it east where it qualifies for the much higher New York price. And he cuts every corner he can - using one engineer, old cars, a cheap railway, and a false manifesto. All of those came at a deliberate risk.

I knoe clergy intensely dislike discussing our faith in any way that has a connection with real life. But I really do think real, daily life was what Jesus had in mind when He spoke.

We have a faith page in our daily newspaper every Saturday with a sermonette by some local fundamentalist that we really should not gossip, and how lovely it is to hear the birds tweet in the trees on a Sunday morning.

But I really think Jesus was talking about something more than that.

Hi graeme,

There are none actually.  There is a lot of me saying, "I don't know" and quite frankly until the Transportation Safety Board releases a final report, which may offer up only possible causes instead of naming definite causes saying "I don't know" is an honest answer.

Which is a rather simplified accounting of actual fact.  The contract that Irving Oil took out to move the crude was awarded to CPR.  CPR subcontracted with MMA to confere the shipmet over former CPR owned lines that are now owned by MMA.  Further CPR sub-contracted with NBSR to complete the movement and deliver the frieght to the Irving refinery.

MMA was not hired by Irving it was hired by CPR as was NBSR.

No idea?  Flammable liquid is an idea.  Were they misinformed about the flashpoint?  Yes, they mislabelling does misinform.  Would they have used foam on a PG 3 flammable liquid the same as for a PG 2 flammable liquid?  Yes.  They would have.  Nobody with any training uses water to extinguish a fire class B or higher.

Water may be used to cool flammable material adjacent to a class B or higher fire, it may also be used to move flammable liquids that have yet to ignite into containment areas.  It is not used to extinguish flammable liquid blazes.

20 hours into the blaze and they needed the nearby Ultramar refinery to provide them a special fire retardant to get near to the centre of the fire.

It would appear that the local fire department, as well as the departments called to assist in fighting the blaze were not appropriately equipped to deal with a fire of this type at this scale.

The Federal Government is responsible for making the change that permits SPTO.  MMA failed to follow the permit process which includes public consultation.

While Irving Oil has its hands in the line between Brownsville Junction and St. John's.  The portion of the line between Cote Saint-Luc and Brownsville is owned by MMA.  I am unable to find any connection between Irving Oil and MMA beyond their agreement to ship oil.

MMA allowed the track to deteroirate and it iw worth noting that due to poor maintenance 23 separate speed restrictions had been placed on the MMA owned line.

I agree with you here.  All decisions were don to make maximum profit.  The decision to subcontract to MMA and NBSR was done so that CPR could maximize their profits.  The decision to introduce SPTO trains was MMA's decision (not Irvings) to maximize their profit.  We can speculate on why the Feds were okay with this riskier method of operation.  We understand that the poor condition of the track is MMA deliberately deciding not to pay for required repairs because such payments would impact upon their profits.  And the mislabelling appears to be the fault of Dakota Plains Holdings Incorporated.

I have no doubt that is true.  I do doubt that he calls as many shots as you suggest.

MMA is not, as far as I can tell a subsidiary of Irving Oil.  MMA bears the responsibility of running this train as an SPTO.  CPR subcontracted MMA and NBSR (NBSR is an Irving Oil subsidiary).  The disaster happend on MMA line which they apparently took all kinds of short-cuts on.

Nice bait. Too bad the hook shows.

I wonder if Jesus thought real, daily life was as simplistic as blame everything on that guy.

We really should not gossip it is one of the injustices that plagued daily life in Jesus' time.  In fact, a rather nasty piece of gossip got Jesus killed.  I don't think the Irvings are responsible for that though.

It is a beutiful sound any other morning of the week, or noon day or evening for that matter.

I agree with you.  He was.  He was interested in justice, mercy and love.  Justice is not simply pointing the finger at Irving and saying they and only they are to blame.

The Feds have the opportunity to prohibit the cars in question.  Did they?  No they did not.  Will they?  Not unless it is to their advantage to do so.

The Feds have the opportunity to refuse an SPTO.  Could they have prohibitted MMA from making this a SPTO train?  Yes they could have.  Did MMA inform them of their intent?  No it appears they did not.  Is their a system in place to catch such a violation?  I don't know.  I think there should be.

The Feds have the responsibility to ensure the safety of the rail-line.  23 mandatory speed reductions on a single line suggests to me that the line is not being adequately maintenanced.  Guess who will not be getting a job with the appropriate regulator anytime soon?

Somebody is responsible for the labelling.  Not sure how the process works and who ultimately has responsibility for it. 

More fingers than Irving fingers went into the making of this pie all responsible parties should be held to account.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Justice and love cannot take a back seat to profit. The reality is, of course, it does. We fight wars to make profits for big business. We always have, ever since there has been a big business. Indeed, almost every war has been fought for business reasons, or strategic ones important to business. World Wars One and Two were not exceptions.

The cost of these wars is one reason why the US just cut billions of its food stamp programme.

I'm afraid you have a limited understanding of how Irving operates. He owns governments. He has openly declared down here that he is a member of the government (in coalition with it) - and he even appointed the advisors to the minister of finance.

The government in Ottawa is not going to carry out a strenuous investigation of him. At most, it will be an even lighter version of the investigation of Mulorney's corruption.

Nor are most of our news media going to mention much about it. (In fact, down here, the story of the irving connection to that oil has not even been mentioned in the papers. The story of the disaster ran two days - and that was it.

There is a connection between Irving and MMand A. irving owns a small railway he bought from them; and he has commonly used MMandA. Indeed, Irving control and interference in government is now the major force in the state of Maine where he is currently working on chainging environmental laws so he he can set up an open pit mine.

To suggest he had no control over the labelling or the government regulations or the choice of MMandA is legalistic nonsense. Irving is obsessed with control. what happens is what he wants to happen.

We aren't seeing much response to those deaths. And we aren't going to. You're going to wait until you have full information? That would be a proper stance if it were possible that we were ever going to get full infomation. So, what it really means is we will never do anything.

Yes, gossip is dreadful. But, on a whim, I would guess that the western slaughter of millions of people just since WW2 is quite dreadful, too. Vietnam, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan - and Iran to come. And I should think poisoning the land and people in Vietnam with 20 million gallons of agent Orange was, at least, in bad taste. And, somehow, gossip doesn't seem to be in a class with operating torture prisons all over the world.

I think there's something wrong with the massive profits going to the very rich while millions are pushed deeper in poverty.  There's something wrong when we're buying grossly overpriced naval ships from irving, while cutting social programmes.

There's something wrong when the RCMP spies on environmentalists (as it once spied on some Christian clergy), and reports its findings to senior business executives twice a year.

You think it sound reasonable? Okay. Then imagine the reaction if the RCMP were to spy on business executives, and report twice a year to environmentalists.

We live under a perversion of capitalism that directly opposes Christian values. It is vicious and it is destructive.

Under the circumstances, I prefer not to waste my Sundays on prattle about the evils of gossip or  how sweetly the birds sing.

Hi graeme,

I expect that there is truth in that statement.

I don't think that means that everytime something goes wrong anywhere that we can pin that on Irving.

I didn't say Irving had no control over the leabelling.  I have said I don't know who was responsible for how the product is labelled.  I know who was contracted to ship the oil and I know who was subcontracted  to transport the oil over rail lines no longer under CPR ownership.

I do not know that there is a dollar value difference between transporting PG 3 and PG 2 loads.  If there is then the mislabelling is understandable from a profit margin measure.  It there is no difference in freight costs I don't know what the motive for not properly labelling the oil would be.

At present I suspect that is because there is nothing legally which points a finger at culpability.  Having had to wait for a final report from the TSB on a plane crash which took the life of my uncle I know that it could be as long as 18 months before investigators come to a conclusion or a rance of possible conclusions.  In the incident with my uncle we were given two possible causes for the failure.  A crucial piece of the plane was missing and without it they never knew if it was the problem or part of the fall-out from the problem.

We have seen MMA file for bankruptcy protection.  I suspect they know very well that their insurer is not going to be pleased by the results, if they don't maintain their track it stands to reason that they do not maintain their locomotives.

If MMA is left holding the bag (and I suspect that they will be) and MMA's bag is full only of promises then there will be very little that can be done to help the families and the town financially.

While it would be wonderful if the Irvings could be held responsible for the derailment, so that they could be held responsible for damages I don't think that such is going to happen in that regard simply because on this particular run Irving contracted with CPR and it was CPR who sub-contracted to MMA

That is what justice requires right.  The innuendo you share is enough for vengeance but falls far short of justice.  Something will be done.  It will not likely be enough and it will most likely leave the families with some bitterness.  Is there enough outrage to get rid of governments that Irving may or may not have in his pocket? 

But what, in your hands it is a tool of justice?

Are we laying all of that at Irving's feet now.

And of course gossip is not in the same class as torture.  That doesn't automatically put it in the same class as justice or even truth telling.

I agree with you about that.  I don't know what that proves with respect to Lac Megantic.

I agree with you there is something wrong when this happens.  I don't know what that proves with respect to Lac Megantic.

Actually I think I just agreed with you in that such practice was wrong.  Sorry if I failed to read the script you wrote for my response.

I agree with this as well.

Fair enough.  That is your choice to make.  You can't engage in gossip and claim it is your Christian duty or in keeping with the pursuit of justice with any more believability than any leader can raise a finger against any enemy and claim it is their Christian duty.

Grace and peace to you.

John

1. under regulations ther responsibility for labelling rests with the oil company. That was Irving Oil. You may be willing to believe that such a large company made such a gross error in labelling quite by accident. But at this point, it is their case that has to be proved. Not mine.

2. We cannot know what the facts are unless we are told them. Frequently, nietherr government nor most of the news media will tell us. There are many cases in which they don't ask questions.

Down here, the papers (all owned by Irving) did not mention the case after two days. At no point were we told of any link with Irving. not have our newspaper ever told us that there was mislabelling.

3. An obvious question is - who changed the rule on two engineers, making it one? Why? Who requested those changes? I have not seen that question even raised.

4. The federal government depends on the financial support of people like Irving. It has a weak record of investigating such people. Demonstratorss who are not breaking the law get beaten up. I have seen it often enough - including a native woman who was punched out by police while doing nothing but standing in a place she had every right to stand in.

The RCMP spies on environemtalists under federal orders - and repports twice years to Harper's financial backers. It does not spy on oil companies,and report to environmenatliats.

5. Irving OIl is quite ruthless- and is determined to develop shale gas down here. When the Chief Medical Officer for the province warned against it, she was misreported, badly misreported. The Irving papers, which simply do not print any news stories critical of shale gas,, then dropped her completely from the news, and promoted a stooge professor to do a public tour discrediting her further, and the government appointed him head of regulation of the shale gas industry.

CBC, last week, broke the story that the professor had lied about his credentials. His degress were not in science (ecology). they were in  education. The Irving paper ignored the story for four days. Than, this past money, the professore confessed that he had falsified his credentials.  He resigned from everything (for health reasons.) The Irving papers had to say something. "Professor hounded from jobs"

The message was that a fine man and a brilliant scholar had been mistreated. there is not a single word of who hounded him. Indeed, i have not even heard of anyone who didl.

6. Irving pays close to no taxes, gets lush government grants - not to mention  a much overpriced contract for icebreakers - openly interferes in government to direct the budget and other policies, insists on cuts to health and education - and higher taxes on most people- but not for himself.

Savings, some legal (because Irving can control legislation) and some illegal. They were, as yu say to increased profit.

You may think that Jesus wants me for a Sunbeam is an adequate counter to that. I don't.

Yes. gossip is not nice. Neither is killing 47 people - even if had the good intention of increasing profit.

Late in his final term, President Clinton publicly apologized for assigning the  CIA to organize and direct the slaughter of a quarter million Maya civilians in Guatrmala - to please the mining compnaies, among whom Canadians are leaders. Only one newspaper in all of North America carried the story.

The US dumped some 20 million gallons of agent orange on Vietnam. Nobody can even gues how many were killed and are still dying from it - or how many grotesquely deformed bavies were born and are still being borng.

Big business has spread misery over the whole of or ta the US by using free trade to shift its work to countries with very, very cheap labour, no educaton or social programmes ot taxes. Big business has been murdering native people by the million in Congo for over a century.. In many cases, Canadian mining companies have been involved.

How many servmons did you deliver on that? Or to you really feel we have to come to grips with gossip, first?

Or must we have full proof first from governments that haves sar shown no interest in it?

The skirts of your gown must be very clean, indeed.

Hi graeme,

Fair enough.  Irving should be held responsible for mislabelling.  Whether it was intentional or not there are, I presume, applicable penalties for such an event.  If you want to allege that the mislabelling is intentional then that would be your case to prove would it not?  Presumption of Innocence still applies.

While true that does not mean that speculation becomes truth.

The only link with Irving, that has been mentioned in the Ontario papers is that the oil was being shipped for Irving.  Most of the Major Ontario Papers have made mention of the mislabelled crude.  So far that is the only connection that has been made.

SPTO trains are permitted in Canada.  My understanding is that every SPTO operation needs to have a permit and that in order to aquire such a permit a public hearing needs to be called.  It is also my understanding that MMA did not follow the permit process which means that the SPTO through Lac Megantic was not in compliance with Canadian regulations.

While it is important to know who allowed changes so that SPTO operations might occur it is fairly clear that MMA did not do what it was required to do in order to get clearance for this particular SPTO.

While true.  The Transportation Safety Board is already on the case, so an investigation is happening and I expect that the results will either be definite (this failure caused this crash) or there will be a number of possible scenarios that led to the crash.

I do not expect that the mislabelling with factor into what will either be human error or mechanical failure.

If that is being reported in Ontario I have no idea where.  And while I have no problem accepting that Irving Oil is ruthless I suspect that it is less their ruthlessness which caused the accident than it is MMA's negligence.

I cannot recall if that made the papers.  I do know it was reported on CBC and CTV respectively.  The tenor of the reports was anything but sympathetic for LaPierre.

Not really news that Irving pays close to no taxes.  It is pretty much standard operating procedure in this province and many of its municipalities to give new industry incentives to come and old industry incentives to stay.  Most often it is a reduction in the proterty tax assesment or other services.

Be as innocent as doves and as wise as serpents.  That is Biblical mandate.  We are not called to be as wise as doves or innocent as serpents.

Nothing wrong with profit so long as nobody else has to pay dearly for it.  The 47 dead are an obsecene price to pay for anyone's profit.

It is worth noting that Irving is out a shipment of oil so they haven't profitted off of this particular run.  It is also worth noting that MMA is not going to be paid for their failure to deliver the oil.

What is particularly tragic is that Lac Megantic will not likely ever be fairly compensated for their losses.  No matter who ultimately is found to be at fault.  MMA bears responsibility for mechanical failure or human error and because they did not take the necessary steps to get the STPO permit needed for that run they will most likely be the primary guilty party.

Now that they are in bankruptcy protection there is a very low probability that they will be able to pay whatever damages they are found responsible for.

Because the disaster did not happen on Iriving owned track with Irving owned equipment the most Irving will be expected to pay is whatever the maximum is for mislabelling the cargo.  None of that money will go to Lac Megantic.

Agreed.

While serving Newfoundland and Labrador it was not unusual for me to be critical of both the Federal and Provincial Governments for quotas which favoured the big Fish conglomerates as well as the practice of shipping landed fish around the province prior to processing.  I couldn't count exactly how often I spoke to the issue.

If you are going to accuse someone of abuse and all your accustations amount to are gossip then there is no justice happening anywhere.  With resepct to the transportation of raw material off of the Great Northern Peninsula we knew how much was landed, and where it was trucked for processing.  That constitutes fact.  

Without such information all we knew in St. Anthony was that little of what was off-loaded at our wharf was processed in anyway at our processing plant.

I also attacked the dockside grading practice which arbitrarily reduced the optimal price per lb of fish landed (claiming damage) with the condition of the same fish after it had spent 13 hours driving on NL's highways being smashed to jelly and truckers shutting down reefer units (to save gas).

I am aware that some of that sermon material made it to the Premier's office.  I don't claim that it changed anything.  I do know that it meant the Premier was never really interested in meeting me when he arrived in town.

Sorry.  Too many typos in this phrase for me to figure out what you are asking.

Whether they are clean or not doesn't mean I have to engage in bearing false witness.

Grace and peace to you.

John

There is no need for proor of guilt in mislabelling. The act of mislabelling is all the proof you need to know it occurred and who did it. Whether it was done  innocently  is another matter.

Ii leave to your b oundless charity that a company notorious for its greed and cost-cutting made an innocent mistake that just happened to greatly increase its profits - and kill 47 people.

In more recent news, Irving is a major player in shale gas development ini this province.

By coincidence, the irving papers have not run any stories on any problems with shale gas. And it ignored weeks of protest by a whole town of native people less than an hours drive away. But that's not a c rime, it is?

then they mangled the story of the warnings of the chief medical officer - and also ignored it when she received a national award for her action.

Then they hyped up a brilliant and distinguished professor who built his career on being nice to Mr. Irving.  They ran a big series of stories on how he had been honoured by the National Academy of Sciences in the US, had been asked to be a major speaker at the conference. And Irving used his influence pretty openly to have him made head of an Energy Institute that would be responsible for regulating shale gas.

As I mentioned, CBC revealed almost two weeks ago that the professor had lied about his credentials. He does not have master's and Ph.D. in science. He has them in education.  The Irving papers ignored the story.

Then he confessed in public he had, indeed, lied, and had no credentials whatever to be a regulator of shale gas - or even to speak on the subject.

The Irving papers couldn't ignore that. So they ran a headline "Professor lapierre hounded to lose jobs." There was n o hounding. And the story gives not even a hint of any  hounding. Instead, the "news" story was all about his brilliance and the wonderful things (not explained) that he had done.

The university instantly fired him. He had spent a whole career teaching a subject for which he was unqualified. He had been issued to discredit the cheif medical officer on a subject he knew nothing about. But the Irving papers slobbered all over him, and insisted he must remain head of the entrgy institute that will set and enforce the regulations in which Mr Irving has such a deep interest.

Today, it got bigger. The National Academy of Science says ut did NOT honour the prof, and he was NOT invited to give a paper. He was there for questioning simply as a person officially involved in shale gas regulation. It also announced that the UdeMoncton faculty had unanimously demanded he be removed from the energy institute - and the students are close to revolt over his deception. Many now feel their degrees are worthless.

Will that appear in tomorrow's paper? Maybe. But I doubt it very much. More likely, it will demand he be kept on to pretend to  regulate an industry with an well earned reputation for ruthlessness.(They've given up on the qualifications angle. The official word now is that he has wonderful people skills.)

But, gee, I'm sure nothing criminal was done. I mean, and  nothing that could, you know, be proven beyond a doubt.

In my first teaching job, I learned of the Cuban missile crisis just as I arrived in school for the day. Everyone was frightened. The principal, the son of a prominent clergyman, went to the classes to explain the situation and calm fears. In each case, he spoke just these words....

"Good morning class,

We are all learning something very important today, a lesson for life...

Now, wouldn't it be a better world if people were just nice to each other?"

funny what makes people remember these things!