Ya, Jesus said forgiveness must be earned. Way to go UCC!

...if that is not so Saul_now_Paul .... then there is no need for repentance???

Seems to me repentance is required ..... that is doing something .... and I would say in a way earning the forgiveness sought....

Maybe it is worth exploring that....

Regards

Rita

I'm confused....

And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.  

So, we have to earn ..." and forigve us our trespasses",

so how do we know when we have earned them.....thus knowing when to "as we forgive those who trespass aganist us"...?????

I have yet to read the article in question and may or may not agree with folks on the article itself..

That said, the interpretion some have of " Christian forgiveness" floors me and confuses me. It begs the question whether-
Christians get to say "Sorry" in front of judges and skip sentences?
Christians working a Twelve Step program get to skip a step or two?
Christians get to have affairs, beat spouses and children and say "Sorry" without any other repercussion?
Christian child molestors should be allowed to just stop and say "sorry"?
The list is endless.

For me, God forgives. God's love and grace is big enough for anything..

But, IMO, that does't mean an automatic free pass with people. It is why there are punishments and laws amidst forgiveness in the Bible
Actions have consequences. Sometimes you have to earn the respect/trust/forgiveness... of someone you wronged. Sometimes it applies to society.

Sometimes sorry is just a word. Anothers forgiveness for every sorry, regardless of repentance/change/work to fix it etc... can be enabling. It can be unhealthy. It can be dangerous. It can be anything BUT loving the person. It can "love" people to death. I think God also knows that.

I may love someone, but I may not want them to do heart surgery on me... expecially if they have never been trained. That person may have done things that were offensive, and in response one can forgive them (in Christian terms), so they can restore themselves. But, after I have forgiven them, I still would rather they did not do the heart surgery on me ... quite apart from their remorse or repentence.

We will know people by their fruits... and deal with them accordingly.

Forgiveness is a gesture of grace ... its not a blank cheque for people to do what they will to us. These are two quite different things, I think.

I think the whole world knows by now that Rob Ford's sorry doesn't cut it anymore. It doesn't mean anything. Perhaps he has paid the price ....?....whatever...?...he's a laughing stock and he'll never be able to get his reputation back and be respected by the public in general although he may  have some supporters.

Here's the article, and another one in the Observer:

Here's what David Wilson wrote in the second Observer  link I posted above:

Quote:

"Brothers Rob and Doug became tag-team mayors even though only one of them was actually voted to the position. They bullied their opponents and reduced the complex business of governing to a few belligerent slogans. Instead of slinking away in disgrace after council stripped the mayor of most of his budget and power, the Fords promised “outright war” in the next election in October."  end of quote

I must declare that there is something new under the sun in my life....these words are making me think. I've generally thought about forgiveness in terms of friends, family, or people I've known. Jesus says we must forgive, and people do say its for our own mental well being also, even shrinks are now speaking to their patients about it I read in an article.

I had never thought about less than kind thoughts or feelings I might harbor against a politician and whether or not I needed to forgive so-and-so. I didn't ever take my thoughts personally I suppose as if its just standard and acceptable to criticize our politicians and/or to not like them.  (Perhaps this is 2 different topics...?.confusing...)

In the News media sometimes certain heroes are applauded such as those who might forgive their child's murderer? In these cases I assume the murderer did sincerely repent and deeply regret his actions.

These words written by David Wilson are making me feel angry against the Fords. I'm an old mad hatter and not ready to forgive as of today but eventually I will have to forgive for my own peace of mind . I'm not 100% sure that my heart will agree with my mind so that may render my forgiveness invalid.

Any thoughts on this...shall we say...this mess....???

Edit: I've written that my heart may not agree regarding forgiving Rob Ford. Forgive me if I'm a walking basket of contradictions. I've often felt sorry for  the underdog in society whoever it may be. So, possibly my heart will more readily forgive Rob Ford than my mind will forgive when the time comes. Oops....!!!

Hi GO_3838,

Respectfully, I think this misstates the crux of Levan's point.

Non-subscribers to the Observer can find the article at the following link:

http://www.ucobserver.org/features/2014/01/sorry_spectacle/

Levan does make this point when he writes:

Which is true.  Aologies do not magically mend broken bones.  They do, however; have the power to mend broken relationships.

Forgiveness is always in the hand of the injured party and when given it is a gift of grace.  Forgiveness cannot be compelled.

That, according to Levan, seems to be the issue with the Ford apologies.

I find it a bit mean-spirited to dub this particular stragegy "Rob Ford-style" it was in vogue long before Rob Ford apologies became newsfodder.  Still, right now, in this neck of the woods he is the clearest example of this strategy at work.

The "super, super, super, super, super sorry" bit in council iced the cake.

It really is not about "earning forgiveness."  It is more about walking the talk and in the spotlight Mayor Ford apparently has trouble doing that.  Which makes him as normal as the rest of us.

Still, the man is a public official and when you fight for the right to lead those who follow have all the right they need to point out when and where that leadership fails.

Rob Ford wanted thugs arrested with guns deported from the city of Toronto.  That is beyond his purview but it is a very tough on crime stance.  It is the stance he chose to make as the Mayor of Toronto.  In his private life he has a much softer attitude towards those who deal in the drug trade and engage in other questionable activities.

There is an integrity deficit in this contrast.

Further to that we have to deal with what the actual injury amounts to.  Rob Ford lied.  Rob Ford is a politician.  Politicians lie.  We wish that they didn't yet we accept that they do.  So again what is the injury?  Rob Ford lied about doing drugs and a videotape.  If Rob Ford had a sterling reputation for truth then this lie would be a real injury.  Rob Ford has no such reputation so at best this is same old, same old.

Does Mayor Ford want to be forgiven?  Sure he does.  It is in his political best interest.  Does Mayor Ford care if his detractors forgive him?  Not likely.  So long as Ford nation is in his corner he will likely be returned to office.  Has Ford nation turned?  Ever so slightly still, it appears that lower taxes trumps moral failings in Ford nation.

Has he been charged with a crime?  No.  Has he been convicted of one?  No.  The law of the land says as long as he can continue to say no to the second question he is entitled to the position of Mayor to which he was elected.

Then there is the over the top bit:

Seriously?  Some in Toronto are embarrassed by their Mayor's antics and the whole country is suffering?  There's some Toronto-centric ego at play.  A little over an hour west and a smidge to the south of Toronto the City of Brantford isn't suffering because of somebody else's clown of a Mayor.

We're still dragging ourselves out of the hole we found ourselves in when our industry collapsed in the 80's.  I'd say we are better than half-way out but things aren't booming for us yet.  Rob Ford being Mayor of Toronto hasn't hurt us at all.  To be fair, I can't think of a way that it may have benefitted our city either so, Rob Ford is, thankfully, somebody else's problem.

Did he lie to me?  Not personally I've never had any contact with him.  Did he tarnish the reputation of politicians?  If I had the ability to stop laughing I'd answer that with a no.

At any rate the article and the Ford follies reflect behaviour found in the parable of the unmerciful servant [Matthew 18:  21-35] which should be a lesson to us all (rather than the typical bit of us thinking it more a lesson for so and so over there).

To be fair I think most to the media has been pretty open about the authenticity of a Rob Ford apology.  Almost every daily printed in TO has mentioned the pattern of event, denial and subsequent admittal.  There should be no literate person in the GTA who is unfamiliar with the Rob Ford series of events it is formula.  Mayor Ford is accused of X, Mayor Ford vehemently denies X and then Mayor Ford finally admits to having committed X.

Christopher Levan is not articulating anything new nor is he offering a new perspective.  The novelty appears to be that there is a Minister out there who is saying apologies don't make everything better.  And that it is fair and decent to expect that the one who apologizes for an injury is going to be accountable for that injury.

What is at stake appears to be a matter of what action Mayor Ford could take to demonstrate accountability.

He lied.  Should he resign his position?

If he does and other politicians who have also lied follow suit we will be going to a lot of polls in the very near future.

Grace and peace to you.

John

As much as I am not a Rob Ford fan and as far from "Ford Nation" politically as I am, I found myself agreeing with him on a few things. They are whst Rev John closes with. Ford is not the only one to drive drunk, use drugs, consort with criminals... the list can include domestic violence. In this day and age of technology, money and what passes as news it is harder to hide those things. One used to be able too throw money at things and cover them up. The "media" is now willing to pay more than any self respecting blackmailer of old would demand. Today, how long do we Kennedy would have lasted before a video broke? Ford got caught. How he handled getting caught was lacking. For me, politicians are human, but IMO they should be accountable human beings.

What John said. Minus the reference to scripture.

Wow, that saved some time.

I can forgive Rob Ford: he seems to have been born into screwed up values, sensitivities and aspirations. No-one breaks out of that easily and the depth of his problems as a human being are formidable.

As for his being Mayor of Toronto, that is Toronto's problem. Torontonians who voted for him put Rob Ford in an  untenable situation.

Now they can see that, and they have a responsibility to see that, it is their cruelty and cynicism that leave Ford hoisted up on  a scaffold of international ridicule and odium. Their just share of that widespread contempt is greater than Ford's: he is their taunted imbecile here, their playgroud dupe. They — and the media that went way past the point of revelation to the place of exploitative conceit — became the perpetrators, intentionally or de facto.

But all of that is really a non-issue. it should be in the past and there is no reason for anyone to think about re-electing Ford.

He'll be re-elected.

Most people would rather have their high profile crack smoking entertainment than a boring liberal mayor who ran for the election on the platform that, " I may not smoke crack, but I can guarantee you that if I get elected, I will spend your money like I am on crack!"

Rob and Doug are like a WWF tag team at city hall. They just need cooler names and speedos.

maybe the Ford brothers need blue makeup and a sword too Saul_now_Paul ......

I find it rather bizzarre how you jump to the conclusion that a liberal mayor is going to spend money like he is on crack.....

So .... if I understand ...... better to be a WWF crack smoking mayor that has shown himself to be way off the rails than taking a chance on someone with a more level head and perhaps some sort of a social conscience??

Is it a matter of the entertainment factor or is it more about a selfish "me first" attitude that doesn't like seeing money "wasted" on helping the less fortunate citizens?

Something that troubles me is that the Ford brothers ..... Rob in particular .... always talk about the "taxpayers" .... never about the "citizens".    In my opinion the clear message is is that only taxpayers count .... the rest are a drain and don't count.

Regards

Rita

 Rob Ford  applauded  in the Star today.

Actually, Rob Ford hasn't saved nearly the money he claims. Those analyses are all over, if you cared to look. If there is "gravy" in the system, and I have no doubt there are spending excesses and mismanagement and abuse, then they are mostly still there. Ford has mostly just cut revenue from taxes and fees, but hasn't replaced the revenue. Further, his plan to fund subways with private sponsorship dollars has been shown to be a massive miscalculation.

He is, essentially, inept. He says what people want to hear, that their taxes will go down, and that he will cut waste to do it. He has a series of short messages like that, which resonate with people.

He is not a smart man, something that is painfully obvious from his interviews. He is the beneficiary of an inheritance and a job from a father who was a successful businessman. Rob himself could not complete even one year of Poli Sci at Carleton University, which, especially, at the time, was about the easiest university in the province to get into. I'm 3 years younger than Rob, and it was called it "Last Chance U". The only other person my age I knew who went there, was also a rich kid who went in with 50s and 60s from high school and failed out as well.

Now that everyone knows he's a hypocritical substance abuser who can not be counted on 24 hours a day and who has physically and verbally attacked reporters and others who have been proven to be telling the truth this whole time, his credibility is shot. Any honourable person would have admitted his mistakes, apologized wholeheartedly, entered rehab, and walked away. Rob Ford is not an honourable man. He does not believe he has a problem, and he still thinks people are out to get him (even though his problems are actually of his own making). His "apologies" are not genuine. He does not care about anyone but himself, and his position. He appeals to poor people, but he does nothing for them. He courts the gullible, and he gets them. He's a lot like televangelist, in that sense. He sells a good message, but he doesn't actually live it.

Hi RitaTG,

This belongs to the political stereotypes that we rather lazily embrace.

Compare that fiscal responsibility with the claim made by the brothers Ford that they have saved Toronto tax-payers $1 Billion.  Google Rob Ford fact check and it becomes readily apparent how good Mayor Ford's word is.

You are phrasing the question wrongly.  That simply is not the way partisan Conservatives operate.  When fiscal questions come up the only question is who saves money and who spends it.  The stereotypical answer (which should be fact-checked but rarely is) is that Conservatives do not spend money but Liberals and New Democrats do.

Why money should be spent is not really an issue though the stereotypical Conservative tends to agree that building more prisons is good (it means jobs doesn't it?) and buying military hardware is good (because well, because it supports the troops--much more so than does looking after the troops when they get home I guess.)

I believe it is a matter of deluding one's self into believing that there is a politician not wanting the contents of one's wallet.  If I wasn't still laughing about politicians not lying I'd start laughing about politicians not wanting to spend tax dollars.

Taxpayers is code.  They are also citizens but they aren't one's tending to get a lot of assistance from the government at any level.  The Ford's pander to the Conservative notion that there are Welfare Queens and Kings living in the lap of luxury on the taxes we pay.

And there are.

We just tend to call them the honourable member from such and such rather than that guy or gal down on the corner who needs a bath and a meal or two.

To be sure the Liberals and New Democrats play to their own stereotypes and that is pretty much as all political parties want it to be.  Better we are always looking suspiciously at the other than looking to closely at those who might be the same.

Grace and peace to you.

John

And his supporters will eat stuff like this up. Susan Fennell might be abusing her position, but Rob Ford, instead, is abusing his wealth. By paying his own way for travel, he gets to act all high and mighty. But what is he doing that isn't on the books? And is low travel expenses the mark of a good mayor, or are there other factors?

People need to think harder about this. Politician expenses don't tell the whole story, so having kneejerk reactions to them doesn't do anyone any favours. It's to the point that people should be concerned when expenses are too low. We should expect our politicians to travel in their job, and it's reasonable to expense related travel. If they aren't expensing travel....why? If Rob Ford spent $20K on travel last year, no one would care. He spent $0. Why? Why is he not expensing it? Rob Ford could lose $100K from his bank account and not even notice, so by not expensing anything, he's almost campaigning with those funds.

Thank you RevJohn and chansen ....excellent points and observations!

Regards

Rita

The p[olice have not finished their investigation yet.  So it is likely that Ford will be facing various criminal charges by the time of the next election.  The reason that the only declared candidates are conservatives is that they need to establish that they are the conservative alternative to the Liberal/NDP candidate when Ford is charged.  (as oppose to John Tory who is waiting for criminal charges)   It seems that the NDP and Liberals in Toronto have entered into a dea;  The Libs will support Chow if she runs, and the NDP will support a Lib if Chow  does not run.   

ALso even if charges are not forth coming, it is unlikely Ford will have any money for the election. The bulk of his funds comes from federal conservative contributers in the 905 area code.   The federal conservatives are not going to be supporting Ford this time, while he may be charged (even if the investigation is eneded without chrge, FOrd is a toxic joke in the rest of Canada, esp with the tough on drugs tories)

I like the Obsever Article.  It makes good sense to publish stories around eevents that many people are interested in.  I bet there hits went way up this month.

I actually saw it made the first page on r/toronto on Reddit. Or was it r/Canada? I forget, but it made it there.

That' s likely a first. the United Church Observer trending on reddit.

I don't agree that charges are pending against Ford. For what? Consorting with undesirables? Smoking something? Admitting he bought drugs doesn't mean they can charge him and prove it in court. Lying? If they started charging people for lying we would all be in trouble. And even if they do charge him with something, it takes years to get through the courts. He will still run and his fans will think the crown is picking on him

And i also don't agree he gets his money from conservative backers. He is just rich. It pays to be rich if you want to go into politics.

I agreed with chansen that it is ridiculous to say he has no travel expenses. We know he travels, heavens he was in Texas trying to get music festivals during the crack crisis. That he paid for it himself is his choice. But the cost should still be shown.

We run into this with our auditor at our church. If we have an expense of say $2000 to clean rugs but someone pays for it, it still needs to go on the books as an expense and a donation. Otherwise the expenses are out of balance.

Ford did this with his office expenses when he was a counsellor. Minimal or no expenses. But that is just because he paid for the mailings.... Himself. The city should not allow that record keeping.

However, I am worried he will get re elected. I also hate that the election lead up is ten months. But here he is, with virtually nothing to do except meet and greet and campaign. And no matter how outrageous he is or what silly things he claims, there is a large part of the city that like the "anti establishment image" he projects. Somehow it never sticks that he is wealthy, is the son of a cabinet minister for heavens sakes, They think he is an ordinary guy.

Personally I think his image is helped by his weight. He looks like an uneducated, redneck, buffoon. He looks like he has a blue collar job and a blue collar upbringing. His suits are sloppy, his clothes look stained....... I think it's very calculated

Plus since he likes to drive while drunk/stoned , so  he may seriously hurt someone and be charged.  

He's a walking time bomb or criminal activity.

He will likely return to doing these drugs, once he is in another "drunken stupor"   Than there are possible charges linked to a murder or to domestic assault, or  sex related crimes.     (unless you still believe the Star, the Post and the Globe are out to get him,  they have all written stories about the above activities)

I do NOT  want Ford reelected ...God forbid. Therefore, I posted another thread informing everyone about the billion dollars he boasts about saving in Toronto. It was too long and detailed to post here. I hope it will stay up top in Google for awhile giving lots of people a chance to read it. I believe it is accurate.

@lastpointe

I agree his image is the magnet, his best calling card that draws the crowds and the talk show hosts.  The poor people support him,  apparently not realizing he is actually hurting them by ending or curtailing certain needed services. He was selling off Ont. housing. I don't know if that idea succeeded or if it was dropped.

I actually think the ontario housing thing was related to. Costs of repair. And the fact that torontohad several hundred or thousand actual houses that people lived in. Those properties are up for sale I believe, or some were.

And Alex, I agree he is a time bomb. I just don't think That charges are coming. You are right they might but so far nothing indicates that.

And it still won't interfere with him getting elected. Only jail will interfere .

Heavens the London Ontario mayor is facing criminal charges of fraud and is stiill the mayor.

It's not the front page of Reddit, but for the Oberver, it is something.

I wonder if they know if they've ever trended that high before?

We can thank Rob Ford for shaping the "new rules" for politicians within our social media. Are we developing a fatalist attitude? Are we pioneering a non consequencial attitude for politicians that are looked upon more as a "topic to talk about" rather than regarded as a serious offence to society in general.Our heroes are starting to look like who gets the most hits on Youtube,Twitter and late night TV. Sadly, Rob Ford outpaces Chris Hadfield and Alice Monroe as far as "heroes" go in 2013.

Should we care about the antics of a Toronto mayor if we don't live in Toronto? I think so. Our new "lows" for social and political morality will undoubtedly formulate a new standard for how much the general public will tolerate and we seem to be sinking deeper into the depths of lower expectations and becoming accepting of behaviours that wouldn't be tolerated in a senior public school.. 

Why should we vote, when it's easier to just "click", like or dislike through our access to social media? We can remain anonymous and influence the thinking of our peers. It's scary how accountability is becoming passe.

Rob and Doug are like a WWF tag team at city hall. They just need cooler names and speedos.

Now there's an image - MY EYES!

Thanks alot!

I forgave him as soon as it became so obvious what he's doing (i live in BC so it took longer to come to my attention or I wasn't paying much attention to Ford). He doesn't need to earn forgiveness. He's obviously messed up and that's sad. That doesn't mean he should stick around in office. It also doesn't mean I'd feel some sort of vengeance. Just elect someone else and pick up the pieces that affect the city and move on (what else can you do anyway, and how will staying po'd at him change anything?) and if so inclined, help the man to overcome his personal problems so that they don't become problems for himself and others in whatever he does in the future.

I read the article. I agree with some of it, but Rob Ford is not capable of returning what he took (city pride mainly- the rest of Canada, I can tell you, isn't losing sleep over it. We've got problems too) so there is nothing left to do but forgive him and move on (i.e. elect someone else more responsible next time and allow Ford to heal too- and everybody else can do what needs to be done to repair the damages to the city, without him. Because he can't.) It's like addicts- you first have to forgive them for being addicts. They lie to feed their addictions. They can't feel sorry enough to change when their addictions creep in and override their decisions. That is what they need to be forgiven for, is the addiction. He's addicted to something- money, power, attention, and likely substances too. And that's the first problem to tackle. If they're not operating with a full deck, because they can't, there's no point in treating them as if they can right away and immediately getting mad at them when they don't. There's also no good reason to elect them to positions of heavy responsibilty unless they deal first with their problems. And the people elected him. A bit of background about him before hand could have gone a long way. Why the heck did Toronto elect him in the first place? His voters must not have been honest with themselves. That's what everyone outside of Toronto is scratching their heads about. With a long history living in the GTA, in and near his voting base, it's amazing that it came out so late. Whose heads were in the sand? It's not like his behaviour just started a year ago- or ended soon after high school. But, practically speaking, strip away his personal shannanigans and he's another politician who didn't deliver on his promises. Shocking! The only difference this time is this politian's blunders were especially dramatic.

Maybe Ford doesn't need people's forgiveness for not being what they thought they voted for (really?), maybe he needs a 12 step program.

I found the Levan article thin and somewhat trite. Levan could have talked about forgiveness and the meaning of God's grace. He could have even used the "S-word". He could have made a connection with the teaching of Jesus on forgiveness and apology. He did none of that. He had a golden opportunity, as none of the faith leaders of Toronto have even come close to speaking about Ford in any substantive way. Levan squandered his chance. The article, sadly, was a waste.

In other words DKS you would have writtene a different article, that made different points.

I would encourage you to do so, and when Ford apologises again (which is a sure bet)  for something,   you could post it as a blog and put it out on reddit, twitter, et al.  Give it an interesting title and use the right hash tags and I am sure it will get thousands of reads. 

Ford is an underecated idiot.  A  a strange, ironic hybrid of conservative blue collar appeal. He is an admitted addict; step away and seek real medical interventions (as your siblings have done so)

If Torontonians continue to support the Fords, then we have no one to blame but ourselves.

The Ford family is corrupt; When money, and lack of education collide, it is expressed as conservative in the realm of politics.

I have been reading about the far right in Europe, and the appeal that Ford has to some of the poor and working people is that same the the far righ has in Europe. And like the far right in FRance, many of his supporters used to be on the left.  They just do not trust the system or politicians, SO when Ford says evryone has secrets, or does drugs , than are likely to believ him since they already beleiev the system and all politicians are corrupt anyways.\

I understand the distrust of politicians...noones as perfect as they claim to be in their campaign- but I don't expect that they're all out smoking crack with ganstas. We had a premier in BC who was caught drunk driving...nothing happened. Didn't surprise me. He was re-elected (not by me- he was slick and savvy. I could see it in his eyes- but his policies spoke for themselves). I was hoping he wouldn't be re-elected but he was. He was also an educated man- also an elitist and not pretending to be 'everyman'. I don't think there was anything in his background quite like Ford's- he was about catering to the wealthy, of that, there was little doubt. So, in that sense, he was more honest, even if he made a personal mistake. Like many Neo-conservatives- when they don't pull any punches about putting money first at all other costs, then you can trust that much, even if you disagree.

Actually, if crack use was in Ford's background, that's one thing. Eg. he'd been on the straight and narrow for several years and wanted to clean up the streets with some 'street' experience and compassion behind his belt, having admitted to being through some challenges . I have no problem with people who use their past mistakes to inform them to go on to do good things... People are redeemable...but in this case, it wasn't past...the experience was in his foreground and actively clouding his judgement. And he lied about it. And he went around pretending to be the voice of upstanding character, saying he's against drugs (yet getting fall down drunk in public), never admitting there was ever a time when he had a problem with them (if he ran on a platform as a recovering addict from the get-go, I could actually respect that), while all this was going on in his present life. So, they're not voting for him for being honest. I think it's about money- about who has it, and who aspires to it. If he gets re-elected, that will be why. No other good reason. That said, active addicts do lie- so I do not hold a grudge because it's an illness and that's part of the illness (and he's not my mayor anyway). I feel sorry for the man for some of the scenes he made in 'drunken stupors'. I can't say I like him as any sort of leader, but I do feel sorry for him that his inebriated behaviour led to him being made a personal mockery of on late night comedy shows and all of North America was laughing at him. That's 'punishment' in itself. I'm sure it caused him anguish and didn't help his urge to use alcohol or drugs to numb himself. And because noone stepped in earlier to intervene and everyone had such fun laughing at him (me included sorry to say), the man didn't get help and the lies and addict behaviour continued. Like watching Charlie Sheen 'winning'. At some point it's just sad. There's no use being angry about it. Other than that, I hope Ford humbles down and seeks serious help- I think if he goes into recovery, he shouldn't seek office for anything unless and until he's been clean for awhile- whether people agree with his policies, or not. He needs time to get clean and sober, and maybe do something else for awhile. If he re-emerged onto the scene in a few years, a changed man- then okay- hear him out. Decide if you like his policies. But not yet.