Here is one from last year:

http://www.nysun.com/pf.php?id=23082

Sure, christians can fight in war. We have free will. Just don't expect to get into heaven without some serious repntace (which I hear happens anyways after killing someone if your sane).

The bible is quite explicit in this regard: non-believers should be murdered.

* Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

* Exodus 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

* Deuteronomy 7:5 ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire

* Deuteronomy 13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city [where they worship other gods] with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

* Deuteronomy 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing [believing in other gods], unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

I could go on and on and on....

The people of the O.T. did fight and did go to war. The Lord even commanded them to, and sometimes they had to show no mercy, even killing women and children. I think that if the war is justified, then Christians can fight. Terrorism is a true threat to the world, and cannot be ignored.

The question is, is "the Lord commanding" people today to go to war? Nope, unless you're Bush who thinks God is using him to unload on 3rd world countries.

Terrorism is a view point subject. Is it not terrorism when Israel bombed the hell out of Lebanese CIVILIANS with illegal CLUSTER BOMBS? Is that not terrorism? Is not terrorism incinerating thousands of humans in a few seconds with TWO A-Bombs? You decide, "go bush! Go fight terrorists!"

OK people....the OT has to do with the OLD LAW COVENANT...we christians are under the NEW...so yes in the OT texts there are examples of god using the isrealites to fight wars against their neighboring nations for his purposes...that DOESNT HAPPEN anymore, not since christ came.

if u think its stupid and loopy fine, but dont get the OT stuff with the NT stuff, cause jesus obviously set a NEW standard and did not mention any god ordained wars taking place between his first coming and his second coming...

so unless your a native isrealite in a time warp with a super inventive imagination, you cant claim to be KILLING for god...

can we please focus on NEW TESTAMENT things, and also christians who CLAIM to be following jesus under the NEW covenant..not just ones who choose to ignore the gospel and whatever else they see fit [aka NOT real christians]

Killing is wrong. Period. War is wrong. Period. I just came to this conclusion this year.....I'm 67 and I have become a Peace Activist. I will lay down my life rather than kill or murder anyone. Yes, Yes, I know all the arguments for war. We are allowed to defend ourselves....blah,blah,blah. I still say it is WRONG. The killing must stop....Come Lord Jesus!

Stardust is what I call a true Christian. Anyone who advocates war, is not.

Great, the name calling starts.

I know of MANY Christians in other parts of the world, including Moscow, Korea and other areas where they are killed for being Christian. They are truly living up to their name and I respect that greatly. They really do believe when Jesus said, to RETURN the sword to its sheath and not to use it, since anyone using it would die by it. They also believe God when he said, "Vengeance is MINE, I will repay." And the TON of verses from the apostles that simply said, "do not avenge yourselves". By saying what you said--now YOU are "smugly" dimishing the glorious, selfless attitude of the 1st Century Christians that were burned, tortured, killed, fed to lions and stretched to death! Guess what? They did not fight back, they did not go on smiting the Romans and so forth, they took Jesus' counsel to heart, love your neighbor as yourself. Think of it, if everyone applied that principle there wouldn't be any wars to begin with. But then of course, we have these "Christians" that DID NOT follow that attitude and DID kill, therefore we do have wars. Shall I also remind you of the Crusades? Terrible terrible wars.

Thanks for determining we are "smug" people.

LOL!

Nice argument on things you know nothing about. In fact that was Jesus telling Peter his disciple that. Don't talk about and correct others on things you can only say "probably" about. So if he told his OWN disciple that, how much more applicable!

I don't glorify the death of Christians--I glorify their faith in Jesus, not in man made wars. After all, that IS the Christian message, the Kingdom of GOD, not man, isnt it? But I guess you'd rather leave your own philosophies and ideas with more wieght than of God's.

AntiSemetic? LOL Thats a usual tactic used by disinformation agents. And I bet you don't even know what that is do you? Merely referring to terrorist type attacks of the United States AND of Israel doesn't make you Anti Semetic. Being anti semetic means you have racial hate for the descendants of Shem, son of Noah. But I suppose you didn't know that either since you are merely spouting at the mouth and insulting people.

Referring to those types of attacks (among many others) makes the point clear. The "anti-terror" groups use very similar tactics, yet they are not considered terrorists. But its ok "Infidel", you dont see the babies that get blown to shreds from the illegal usage of cluster bombs on CIVILIANS. You don;t care, you only care about your own nation, your own. You dont care that others on the otherside are praying to God too. You simply think its a one sided war. I am so happy I don't think like you, otherwise I'd be inclined to join the military and go kill a few civilians myself.

"You're backing the wrong horses, me lad."

Thats just hilarious. You are constituing yourself as the judge of which side of the wars are right and which are wrong. Wow, I wish I had that authority.

Oh and by the way. Since I really resent the fact you called me an Anti-Semite with no real basis I must also add, hating Arabs too is being Anti-Semite, not just Jews. So really you are wrong in many angles.

"Islamists are onn the march yet again for global domination--or hadn't you noticed?"

Oh and I HAVE to address this. "global domination" hardly. A few screwed up countries with landmind fields? Desert lands? Thats what you call global domination? LOL So then what do you call the US invading Native American territory and killing them off? What do you call US invading Mexicans in California and Texas? Just a few shoves? I'd say that too is "global domination" then.

"I know of MANY Christians in other parts of the world, including Moscow, Korea and other areas where they are killed for being Christian."

You may not be an anti-Semite, but you're a liar. Christianity is the fastest-growing faith in Korea. No one, repeat: NO ONE is being killed there for being Christian. You're clearly just trying to win a debate by resorting to emotional manipulation.

We've already had one thread on this topic. Wish the forum system worked better so people could continue on the old thread rather than starting a new one.

In any case, as I said the last time around, war is ALWAYS a failure. But it is a failure of nations and societies, not of the individuals. I am in awe of those who are able to maintain completely pacifist views, and it is my dearest hope that the whole world will reach that point. Until that time, however, our own human failings will cause us problems. When we as a society fail to see the problems coming and head them off before they reach the violent stage, or worse, deliberately ignore the situation, sometimes we end up in a situation where the only way out is to engage in warfare. Again, that is because this society failed, not because war is a good idea.

And before you go all righteous on me, Infidel, I'm almost too young for the target demographic of this website. Maybe your age-based prejudices are confused?

>>>BLAH said: "You may not be an anti-Semite, but you're a liar. Christianity is the fastest-growing faith in Korea. No one, repeat: NO ONE is being killed there for being Christian."

i hate to say your an idiot, but your "Acting" like one...you think you know everything? you may know a lot but come on...thats a pretty big statement NO christians were killed..lol hilarious..ly stupid.

if you study the history on it, which MAY be a little hard to find...[that DOESNT mean its not true] there have been CHRISTIANS in korean since BEFORE world war one!

it was illegal to be a christian until recently, so they had to worship underground while they were under ban by the governments.....so yeah, its not hard to imagine that they would KILL people who were disobeying the laws of the nations by secretly having christian fellowship/worship.

they were HATED, just because new tolerance has come about permitting them to meet and worship in PUBLIC [doesnt mean they werent around before....the facts show otherwise... yes maybe a lot of NEW converts are now appearing out of the woodwork because of lack of opposition but that doesnt mean there werent hardcore christians during the ban, that just tried to keep it on the down low.

why would you challenge a christian on his knowledge and history of his OWN faith? do you really think you know everything about your side of the fence AND the other?

keep your ego in check, please...and dont accuse people of being liars unless you are SURE they are... thanks :-)

PROOF they were KILLED:

if your too uninterested or lazy to read it all [its not THAT long]just press control+f and search for the occurances of "KILLED"...

this was written in 1952, its some excerpts from a letter written by a korean christian:

"THE last time I was in Korea was in June 1950. Then there was just a handful of brothers in all Korea and only one company, located in the city of Seoul. Now after one and a half years of war and privation in which many brothers have gone hungry, suffered from exposure, lived in caves and in trees, were injured, and some were KILLED, the company of brothers has increased to where there are company organizations now, not only in Seoul, but in Taegu, Chonju, Kunsan, Quejon, and Pusan; also, the good news of God's kingdom is being made known throughout all South Korea and in places where it has never before been preached.......

I was told that a newly baptized sister and her son, who later was baptized, had their home destroyed and they moved into the basement of the missionary home. When the Communists knew that they were going to have to evacuate the city, they rounded up all persons they considered questionable and KILLED them...

They questioned the five persons, the sister and her son and three other members of the family, living in the basement of the missionary home, and when their answers did not appeal to them they stood the sister and her family in front of the house and shot them down. The young brother was not shot, but he fell with the others and was left for dead. The sister and other members of her family were KILLED instantly. The hole in front of the house was their grave until the liberation.

The Reds interviewed each one, who often grovelingly said he would work for the Communists, etc. Each one who was questioned before this brother's turn had been taken off to one side and KILLED.

-----

point proven? or do i need to dig up some more to curb your disbelief?

WHEN it all STARTED in korea

heres a quote from a letter written by a korean christian to an american one early in this century..

"When the first missionaries landed here (in 1885) Korea was a hermit kingdom. Since then some Koreans became identified with Christianity."

is 1885 REALLY when it all started? maybe..or maybe that was just the best knowledge that person had, or the first time HE came across them...who knows, but its safe to say it was a LONG time ago, and a small underground group survived until it became "legal" to be a christian... they were of course christians all along, despite the risk to their own life over their beliefs.

-----------------
"Four replies! Count 'em.I guess I must have hit a nerve. Are those little flecks of foam which agitated people get, are they flying off your keyboard as you type? Thanks for the revealing replies. Wonder what exactly got you going so much?

Like I said, too much scriptur-reedin', too little thought."
-----------------

Useless Gibberish as usual. Really, all the onlookers can now see who really is the one that is getting all worked up LOL. RarrrRRr Yeah I'm foaming at the mouth. HAHAHAa!

--------------------------------
"But seriously, you're too far gone to debate. The self-loathing for yourself and our gloriously free society must be difficult for you to bear. The guilt, the shame of it all."
------------------------------

"Self-loathing"? LOL "Guilt, the shame", wow, now I've heard it all, first I'm an Anti-Semite now a self loathing guilty person. HAHAHAHAHAHA Oh the horror!

--------------------------------
"Oh ye distorter, I said not a word against Arabs, I only spoke against the Islamic Fascists which seek your neck and mine, and to put your daughters, should you be so lucky to have any, under animalistic shrouding-tents, robbing them of their individuality and dignity, to name only two amongst many other crimes against humanity."
-------------------------------

Talk about "distorting" LOL. WHERE did I say YOU were against Arabs Mr. Strawman? Yes a strawman is your speciality, too obvious as was demonstrated before. n00b.

------------------
"I called you a Jew-hater and now I'll add the term West-hater because you only mention things designed to make them look bad, while completely silent on the far greater crimes initiated by, yes, the enemy. If you don't understand right now, that Iran almost has in its grasp nuclear weapons, and what will happen after that terrible moment (or when it amasses enough of them), why that matters and why it is most definitely a thing for us all to fear, then there is nothing else to say to you."
--------------------

Ok tell me. What greater crimes have been commited than this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

Almost 300,000 lives MOSTLY civilians in a few SECONDS by use of TWO A-BOMBS?

Are you going to cry us a river about Pearl Harbor? What? The whopping 2,400 lives lost over the span of about 2 hours by use of NORMAL warefare weapons?

What about this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5299938.stm

2 million bomblets were dropped over the civilians of Lebanon AFTER the peace treaty was already agreed to, but just not yet in effect. Humane? How is it anti-terrorist? What are we teaching them? Do you know who is going to die from these bomblets? The scary "terrorists?" Nope. Children.

http://www.uksociety.org/us_crimes_against-humanity_1.htm

What? Are you going to cite 9/11 now? The 3,000 lives lost in that attack? Sad day indeed, but is it a greater crime than the US's? I fail to see you rationalization of that.

Now before you start posting how this scary terrorist bombed this bus, bombed that taxi and bombed that building here and there. READ THE FOLLOWING. We all know what the scary "terrorists" are capable of. I don't deny what they do. but I am not in la la land like you are thinking the US and its allies are innocent little parties being humane nations. Thats just stupid to think that way. My message is, WAKE UP. Your government is no better, just because they give you a McDonalds to eat it. WAKE UP!

--------------------------
Oh poop! Silly me.I just realized I'm talking online with one of those white-shirted doorknocking Jehovah's Witness guys. That explains everything.
---------------------------

You are wrong. "white-shirted" door knockers are Mormon. Yeah, "that explains everything." Thank the "Infidel" for such briliant insight.

"NO ONE is being killed there for being Christian. You're clearly just trying to win a debate by resorting to emotional manipulation."

I already showed you one link, there is no need to show you more. I proved you wrong. Now you are the liar or the one that just spews garbage out the mouth accusing people of things.

Oh and sorry, you didn't address anything I said, but only rambled on. Especially things like this:

--------------------
Thats what you call global domination? LOL So then what do you call the US invading Native American territory and killing them off? What do you call US invading Mexicans in California and Texas? Just a few shoves?
-------------------

ON top of the rest I had already raised which you ignored.

Oops, this is my 3rd post limit according to "Infidel"--by now I must be raving mad. LOL!!!!

My dear Bror,

Your post suggested that Christians are being killed in Korea NOW. And the link you provided is in regards to NORTH Korea, which is just laughable. North Korea doesn't have religious freedom.

KOREA, on the other hand, is roughly 30% Christian, and Christianity is the fastest-growing religion in the country.

My comments stand.

Blah, you name says a lot. You post is Blah indeed. Since when is saying Korea ONLY referr to South Korea? Since when? Infact they are already AGAIN since last year looking at a "unification" of their land AGAIN. So don't try to pull a fast one and justify your weak accusation of "liar". Point is, Christians have died for their belief, you said they didn't.

Wow, this is the 3rd time you use the Straw Man fallacy. You know what that means right? No? I feel like I am repeating myself. Now, when did I say terrorists are good? Apparently you seem to think I said that since you are "quoting" me--apparently.

Yeah you are right, I don't think I would want to read your 'undeserving' post--it might blow me away from your intelligence.

As if they were used "entirely without reason." Tell me genius, how did I imply that--even remotely when I myself posted the reason for their USE? A logical person would conclude then that I wasn't being once sided, but presenting both sides of the fence, not just "oh they bombed pearl harbor." You do see the text in front of you right? If so, you did see that I posted the death tolls of BOTH attacks right? Interesting.

Now we want to talk about war rape crimes? Yes, we are guilty of that too--too bad. Open your browser, hit the button that says "search" AFTER you type "US war crimes"

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4989422/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1210490,00.html

Here is an interesting one:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0112-07.htm

The Iraqi says the US torture was "worse than Suddam!"

Yes, don't these TOO count for--as you put it, 'terrible war crimes'? Who bombs us then? Ourselves? These victims have family, children and wives too ya know? Just how you see the widows of lost American soldiers crying by their graves, its the same over there--stop being such a emotionless warmonger. People that don't live in American have feelings too remember? Even if YOU think they are--as you put it, "the enemy." I don't see them as just "the enemy' I see them as people. I abhor the ones making war of course, but I can't just give the US a free ticket either, we do the same.

"At the very least there is a debate about the necessity for the use of the bomb."

No need, I don't care. What I care about are the civilians that were incinerated. Who cares if Truman thought it was a good idea or not. "Debating" whether to use it or not is something you and Blah can do--those are the kind of things you guys really love to do anyway. Forget the genocide right?

"there is also a point of view which maintains that they saved more"

A "point of view". And thats all it is. Of course a point of view such as that is going to exist why wouldn't it? But to put you back into reality, you don't know for sure do you? Thats why you can only say, it is a "point of view." Imagine, the lives of many civilians, in the hands of a "point of view." Go figure.

"As I said, there is quite a debate about these points if you read the literature";

I've read some of it, I lost interest--as I already pointed out, its a debate, its doing nothing for the civilians that are already dead.

""but of course you gloss over all that because it muddies up your simplistic waters: you simply want to paint the USA as a villain and leave it at that, and hope that the readers here are ignorant of any historical knowledge."""

Wow you caught me and my hidden motives, to "paint the USA as a villian". You're such the modern day Matlock. Please..... I am as neutral as they come thats why its great being a Christian, we root for no one. Secondly, as I keep saying, merely bringing out dirt on your own country does not make you anti-USA. Hardly. No more than admitting we were wrong for very similar reasons does.

"But also, if you think they were a crime, and since you challenged me to provide an example of a "far greater crime": if you are determined to prove the USA as the villain, why didn't you choose the firebombings of Tokyo? Those killed far greater numbers of people than the A-bombs, and just as horribly."

Here is where you refute yourself. "Determined to pove..." Says who? I am not determined to do anything. You are just getting worked up over some skeletons in the closet--as most people do. I as an American can admit we've done very similar things and grossly inhuman things. You on the other hand cant, you cry wolf because someone is overstepping your little lines you made around yourself. Grow up.

Now no, I didn't know about Tokyo bombings, I will look it up later. But even that in itself refutes your claim, if I was "determined" as you put it, I would have known about it. But thanks to you, a staunch supporter of pro USA, now I know, ironic isn't it?

"What about the Holocaust, or the endlessly huge numbers of people exterminated in the Soviet Union? What about the vast crimes of the Imperial Japanese Army? Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia, since you love it so much"

What about the Holocaust? Good question. WHAT about it? "6 million" died, some even were Jehovah's Witnesses--my own brothers. I am glad you brought up the SU genocide, most people never mention it in regards to holocaust. You forgot one, what ABOUT the Native American genocide on US turf? Is that to insignificant to mention? Consider this interesting quote:

||||"Hitler's concept of concentration camps as well as the practicality of genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United States history. He admired the camps for Boer prisoners in South Africa and for the Indians in the wild west; and often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of America's extermination - by starvation and uneven combat - of the red savages who could not be tamed by captivity." P. 202, "Adolph Hitler" by John Toland"|||||

Interesting isn't it? We killed about 1,000,000 "savages" on American soil, actually, on NATIVE american soil, it wasn't even the American's soil.

http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/aiholocaust.html

And just so you dont cry wolf again and say we are picking on poor US,

What about Rwanda? Its a genocidal holocaust as well--800,000 lives lost.

Ukraine "Famine" -- 7,000,000

Interestingly, we killed more Native Americans than Rwanda did their own. So who bombs us? Who calls us "Axis of Evil"? Who gets to call us "terror" groups? Nobody I suppose, since that is our past, and well you know, the past is past right? If that were true, Bush wouldn't want to so badly attack Iran. He is basing his feelings on what Iran has done in the past. Imagine, could they be doing the same thing in their minds regarding the US's past? Very reasonable. :)

"Because of the sheer scale of suffering caused by the Japanese military during the 1930s and 1940s, it is often compared to the military of Nazi Germany during 1933"“45. The historian Chalmers Johnson has written that:
It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese."

Nice quote and proves my point--no government is what it portrays to be and the US doesn't get a special exception.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Thats just ONE country and a few years worth and civilians at that. The difference? nothing, both murdering warmongers.

"America-haters, at least if you have a shred of fairness left in your mind"

There we go again, set the straw man up and knock it down. "fairness" Give me a break. What YOU consider fair is this:

USA=democratic nation hooray! We got all the nukes, yay! First to use A-Bombs on two complete cities yay! We are honorable only because we fight against the holocaust! yay! We are so against these "terrible war crimes" yay!

All other nations= Savages, terrorists, uncivilized, undemocratic, they got one nuke they are looking for war, they do a few war crimes all of a sudden the US forgets theirs.

To me fairness is this:

We know everyone elses faults so well its time to remind ourselves of our own. Oh Lord! Would you look at this? We've done many of the SAME things as the other "evil" nations have done! Oh well, at least we can now try to learn from it since we now KNOW more about our own crimes and not just of the "enemy".

Again, I am not the one hating Americans. You are, by simply wishing these skeletons would go away by trying to magnify others' faults ONLY.

"I never said the USA was simply and always good. I don't think in black and white terms such as you fanatics do. But on the balance, yes the USA is Good. They have never remotley done anything on the scale of the above crimes."

I agree, you never said they were always good--that'd be stupid. But you do act like our own crimes are of little significance when it comes to OTHERS' "terrible war crimes." I agree as well, it generally can be a better nation the others, but we can let people forget our past and even our present. I totally disagree with your last sentence:

"NEVER remotely done anything on the scale of the above crimes."

I'd like to disagree and point UP. Just because on SOME events our number was say, 500,000 and the "enemies" number was 3,000,000 doesn't make it better my pal. Death is death, murdered civilians are murdered civilians, genocide is still a genocide even if you think 1,000,000 Native Americans is not a large "scale."

""I say, instead of simplistic inversions such as you perform, that in this imperfect world, I prefer western freedom and democracy any day, McDonald's and all, than the world the terrorists live in now, force on others, and would impose on us. See how nicely they'd treat your tender hide if they got their hands on it!""

Don't try to use emotion to get to people's minds, thats what disinformationalists do all the time. You seem to be a big promoter of it unwittingly. I like McDonalds too =) Anyway, as I already CLEARLY stated in my last two posts, (last one for sure) "I don't deny what terrorists do." Simply put. But I neither deny or minimalize what we've done either. That's the kicker.

"And if you can't process that simple reality through your nitwit brain, and understand it, no matter how much "Scriptur you reed", you'll never get it."

You can insult me all you want and call me names all you like, it doesn't mean anything and it doesn;t make you right. I know it makes you feel good inside to be able to sit on your safe little bottom behind that screen typing away at someone you don't know about how they are so anti-semetic, anti-USA and pro terrorists, It must feel good to know that you only have to worry about the "enemy" and never your own because they are now simply "good."

Happy trails--I am done talking about this subject, my points are clear, for everyone to see, they can decide. ;-)

Oops sorry, again, passing my Infidel imposed post limit again. I was going to also add,

http://hnn.us/articles/195.html

Our lovely allies. Not even the country's own men of the Naval vessel trusts them, at least not on this event. The captian himself thinks they are traitors. These are veterans, not little oh me saying these things. I'd like to see you try to tell THEM all the things you just said. I doubt they'd let you off the hook so easily.

And if you dont want to read, here is a video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6595846710992512471&q=dead in the water&hl=en

In anycase, this is for informational distribution purposes :-)

Kyle: But what causes war is it not greed and covetousness? And then what about the Biblical passage "Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins?

Kyle There are some things you dont know about the holocaust. First of all most countries defended themselves against the Nazi's until they were overrun. There were many in some countries who betrayed their neighbours and collaborated with the Nazi's to squeal on their neighbours who did harbour Jews, in return for material wealth. The English, the Canadians and Americans fought against this evil force from Hitler. So you are saying that Canada, America and England should not have fought against Hitler and his army and just let him keep on persecuting and murdering Jews?