Hello Mahakala

I lived in Elliot Lake for a number of years and I have family and friends there.

I was also outraged and haertbroken when the rescue efforts were called off.

The rescue is back on TODAY ..... thankfully.......

I know the mall well and I was there when it was built.    We even thought the steelwork was flimsy when it was going up.

I know Mine Rescue and I know had they just let them in there that they would find a way.   This is a northern mining town ...... we understand this sort of danger and there is not one of those workers that would not put their life on the line and go in there and make it happen.    In the north ... we don't leave people buried like that .... ever...

I have lots that I could say but I had better not because it would be driven by the wrong emotions.   Lets just say maybe its time to give those professional urban rescuers a safe rest and let the community handle this.   I would go in there in a heartbeat .... and I would be going in there to come back out .... and not alone....  this is doable....

Sorry for the rant ... my emotions are getting the better of me....

Rita

Hi Mahakala,

They can make this decision painfully knowing that every delay means some will not be rescued only recovered.

They can make this decision tearfully knowing that to continue risks a collapse that may kill those still alive and injure rescue workers who are, at the moment, a precious commodity in Elliott Lake.

The can make this decision remorsefully knowing that they will forever be seen as cowards and quitters by the survivors of those still trapped.

What a tremendously heavy burden they carry.

With time yes.  Continuing as they have until they have that other way puts the lives of survivors at greater risk.

You can't just keep shifting rubble believing that as the weight shifts the stuff underneath stays perfectly still either. 

The plan is not to pack up and go home.

The plan is to find ways to continue the rescue effort.  At present the current methods are causing the rubble to shift.  At present people are trapped underneath tons of rubble balanced precariously on top of more rubble.  It is like trying to remove one dominoe from a tightly packed design.  One slip it all comes down and individuals currently trapped and alive become crushed and dead.

It is the stuff of hanging by slender threads that is for certain.

Grace and peace to you.

John

It is completely appropriate that rescue crews stop. There is no evidence that anyone is alive in the rubble. The rubble is highly unstable, putting any rescuers at great risk.

When we deal with our own grief in these situations, we want the heroic, the hopeful recovery. Reality is much more mundane. This is a horrible, deadly situation. It will take a long time to play out.

Mine rescue is not urban search and rescue. It is also angineered structure, not deep geology. Apples and oranges.

DKS .... I am well aware of the difference between Mine Rescue and urban rescue.

I also know that those in Mine Rescue are well able to think and work outside the box and would be a considerable asset in a case like this...

Apples and oranges indeed..... and when the apples give up then perhaps it is time to let the oranges try.     I know Mine Rescue people ..... they would go in ... and they will get them out ....

Please ... perhaps my words seem a bit harsh towards what you have said and please understand that the frustration and desperation that you hear is in no way directed at you.

I know the community .... I know the people ... we don't give up ... period.....

Regards

Rita

I get the need to plan before action is taken.  If things shift, more time might be needed to change a plan.  There seems to be a large amount of time spent on planning though.  There were signs that people were alive.

News coverage has been minimal here.  I'm not sure what type of help they have had.  This is not the first time a large building has collapsed on people and others do have experience with getting people out alive.  It doesn't appear that experience from others has been well utilized.

It's frustrating and maddening to me and I do not know anyone there.

Hi RitaTG,

Respectfully this is such a disrespectful comment.

Stopping temporarily is not quitting pemanently.  Describing this retreat as givng up ignores the reality that continuing as they had been they were putting the lives of survivors at risk and putting the lives of rescuers at risk.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I know a little bit about that mall, based on a conversation my father had with his plumbing subcontractor while my father was superintendent on North Gate Mall in North Bay in 1979/1980. The malls were both built around the same time. Apparently, the Elliot Lake mall is built into the side of a hill, and features a retaining wall and a two storey steel structure with hollow precast "coreslab" for intermediate and roof slabs, with the roof slab doubling as a parking deck.

What this means, is there are a bunch of possible failure modes. They say the structure is still shifting. This could be the retaining wall slowly moving, or the lateral support of the steel structure coming apart, or...it's hard for me to say without knowing the exact structure. The initial failure could have been caused by this movement resulting in decreased bearing area of the coreslab, or a shear failure of weakened coreslab, made the floor diaphragms discontinuous. At least, those are my hypotheses.

How to get in there? My idea is continuous braced frames at both levels. If they have a company from Bolton in there, they know Peri Systems is from Bolton, too, and they have all kinds of shoring solutions. Just erect a continuous skeleton of frames inside, so if there is a collapse, anyone under the scaffolding has a good chance of remaining unscathed.

Then, with people at the site, use hand tools to get sections of the coreslab hooked onto the massive crane they have coming, and get them out of there, or maybe bust them up to prevent shifting from crushing potential survivors. I'm a structural engineer - not a rescue specialist.

As for suspending operations for a while yesterday, it sounds like the structure is indeed moving.  What you have there, in simple terms, is a shifting house of cards. It's not just a race against a clock with an unknown end time - their previous rescue efforts likely were speeding up the next collapse, and now you have a larger rescue. So, you step back, re-assess, and it looks like they've done that. A bigger road to accommodate a massive crane is being installed, and they are changing their approach.

The collapse is a tradgedy.  It is totally within the bounds of expectations however.  The parking garage on the roof allowed salt and other chemical laden water to leak into the building.  In parking garages around the country, massive repairs have had to be undertaken because of the resultant corrosion.  Time was the only factor.

and, when the Westray mile blew up, 26 men were left underground permanently as there was no chance of rescue or recovery. God rest their souls.

Inspections and building codes have improved.  There may be more of these situations as our old infastructure continues to shift under the load of people, weather and time.

Heaven help us all.

The roof collapsed Saturday afternoon - it is now Tuesday and the full resources available to search and rescue teams are not expected to be in place until later today.  Sometimes hindsight sucks.  My prayers of strength go to those who may still be alive and trapped...

Rita, you spoke of mine rescue.
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If I say something totally ridiculous it is in ignorance so tell me.
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The little I have read about mine rescue makes it sound different. Mines are always so dangerous. Do the miners perhaps bond almost like men in a war time situation?
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If I am way off base, tell me.

Typically, on parking garage roof decks, snow plows damage waterproofing and expansion joint materials, and yearly repairs of these important components don't happen for cost reasons.  In 10-20 years, the owners are looking at massive slab replacements instead of waterproofing repairs. It's false economics.

If you live in a condo, make sure that any traffic topping or rubberized expansion joints in your parking garage are in good shape and not bubbling or broken.  If they are, bring them to your condo board. I have designed slab replacements on 20-year-old buildings, which shouldn't happen.  Shoddy construction and no maintenance mean million-dollar contracts to restoration companies instead of a few thousand dollars yearly to maintenance companies. Not to mention the potential for collapse. You should see some of the stuff I see in use, including concrete ramps with holes you can see through.

Thank you. What I heard on CBC yesterday said that they were moving from search and rescue to a recovery mission, even though they had heard tapping and breathing, so they knew people were still alive in there. I thought this was outrageous. I understand that they might have to change their approach once the structure is too dangerous to go into. Understandable, but  you don't just say your switching to recovery when you know there are still people alive in there. Glad to hear they are back at with provincial and national help. They should not stop trying until they are sure there is nobody alive.

Yeah, I don't know why they said it was changing to a recovery effort. That was stupid.

Thanks for sharing your structural knowledge, chansen...it helps to understand their situation. 

I am an old man. I have worked construction and heavy manufacturing for 40 years. The duty of men is to protect and - if necessary- rescue the innocent. If you die trying - that is the most honourable death a man can have.

You probe the wreckage with a human chain. Much better than wimping out and saying its too dangerous.

I have worked near Elliott Lake and know there are lots of real men there. While the rescue crews are dithering, they should get the hell out of the way and let the real men in.

Judd... dying while trying to save another may be 'honourable,' but it should not be one's goal. They have families at home, too.

Mahakala... I can assure you that rescuers do not make the decision to retreat lightly. They become rescuers because they want to be the ones to go in and help others, but they also want to return home to their families.

The first priority of rescuers is to ensure the scene is safe for themselves. Rescuers who end up needing to be rescued themselves -- or worse, who become victims -- cannot help anyone.

As Premier McGuinty has described the situation, it is a 'house of cards.' Moving to wrong piece of rubble could cause further collapse, trapping or killing rescuers.

There are experts on scene, and the rescuers will take direction from them.

Perhaps you are right revjohn ...... in my passion I did not communicate as clearly as I would have liked....  my apologies to anyone offended and I will try to mind my words and articulate them in a more clear and careful manner.

Thank you for pointing that out....

Regards

Rita

The HUSAR unit from Toronto (http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/prg/em/usar/index-eng.aspx) are among the best in Canada. They think outside the box. The problem is that solution #1, going through the top of the building, became extremely dangerous. HUSAR was ordered out by the Professional Engineer on the ground, who knows these things. Solution #2, which is starting now, is to go in from the outside and take much greater risks by demolishing the building bit by bit.

This is not a job for gung ho testosterone. This is a dangerous job for highly skilled  urban rescue professionals. No one is giving up.  

They had to have police protection to keep the miners from doing just as I said. A human chain uses a lot of manpower and slowly digs in and clearss debris, shoring up as needed. If blocks cant be cleared,the route is changed on the fly. basically everybody stands in line and each man's job is to haul the guy in front of him out of trouble. The point man rotates to the end of the line every half hour.

Thanks folks - dealing with this since Saturday - your comments/opinions are appreciated.  There is no “one” answer.  Locals have their own opinions – I do not live in Elliot Lake however this event directly affects my job.  I have a different perspective – however, I can tell you that most of the posts above I have heard from the locals.  From blame, rage, anger, hurt, loss – you can be sure that once this is over there will be lots of questions.

If you want local updates go to Moose FM’s Elliot Lake website – and listen on the hour and half hour for updates.  Sudbury CBC is keeping up to date in the mornings (local programing)  As It Happens had something on tonight but I didn’t get a chance to listen to it.

Keep an open mind – mistakes made – probably -  but as so many have said – the rescue/recovery is the most important right now.

From what I've read, they aren't making use of experts.  Help has been offered by those wih experience in similiar situations and declined.  Interestingly, the article I read this morning with that information is no longer available, parts of it have been deleted.  It still shows up on google for the searched words, but when I open the aricle it's not there.

I'm pretty sure this is the same person I had read about in the initial article:

http://www.thesudburystar.com/2012/06/27/mall-vigil-continues

It had mentioned that there was a decision to work through the night, but lighting wasn't requested until much later, at 9pm.

They shouldn't be accepting help from everyone and anyone, that creates chaos.  I haven't heard anything that suggests they have accepted or requested help from people who have experience though.  This is different than what a typical search and rescue team deals with.

Maybe it's just the reporting that's being done, but that's the information that I'm getting out here.