Gee, that's just like americans danced in the streets when bin Laden was killed.

Have you checked any counts of the dead? I believe it stands at some 150 Gazans and 5 Israelis. Of course, Israelis won't celebrate that. They'll be sorrowful at what they had to do, and conduct drives to raise money for Gaza children, the surviving ones.

Mely. Have what judgements you like. but please open both eyes.

what was your take on how isrealies handled the death of the hamas leaders whose car they firebombed a few days earlier, mely?

"sighsnootles, OMG NOOOOOOOO!"

Are you suggesting that killing bin Laden is morally equivalent to bombing a bus-load of civilians?

Israel tried to avoid killing civilians by dropping fliers warning them to stay away from certain areas. They wouldn't have killed any civilians if Hamas hadn't  fired hundreds of rockets into Israel while using women and children as human shields.  

It depends on the skin colour of those civilians, doesn't it, Mely?

Of course. Israelis have never killed civilians. Never.

In today's news, Obama will go to congress for additional aid (money and weapons) for Israel. Of course. And I believe Ii said this would happen. In interntional negotiations, money is usually a big factor. And Netanyahu has his price.

The bigger danger Israel faces is that it is no longer the asset to the US that it was. You will notice that in the last year or so, the CIA has been backing mercenaries drawn from jihadists - as in Syria and Libya.

for all your illusions, Mely, nations do not  work on moral principles. Israel could be dropped tomorrow if it suited US priorities. In fact, that is becoming a distinct possibillity. General Petraeus, as you many have noted was a strong advocate of making friends with Jihadists. Remember, it was the CIA that created the Taliban fighters and bin Laden. They seem to be going that route again.

Is killing a person you don't like the moral equivalent of killing one you do like? Yes. I think think it is. I really do.

By the way, remember who made bin Laden such a force, who trained him and supplied him. That was the CIA.

YOu may be in for a terrible shock when and if the US decides that Israel is no longer useful to it. The world of international relations is not a sentimental one.

http://homebrewedtheology.com/i-do-not-stand-with-israel-i-do-not-stand-with-hamas.php

There is more to the link, I have only quoted the first part....

I am tired of the one sided reporting. Having said that, I am not saying Hamas is good. I am also not saying that Israel is innocent. Learning more about the illegal settlements has given me a different perspective.

Oh, and I did not look at the clip

northwind, that article you posted is how i feel as well.

i think the time for refereeing these two is over.  i think we need to treat them like children...

everyone out of the disputed area.  out.

when you have figured out how to get along in there without killing each other, THEN you can go back in. 

until then, NOBODY gets to live there.

Still sucking up the racism and religious hatemongering of blazing cat shit, I see, Eh Mely?

Too bad you spend soo much time trying to destroy Christianity by claiming to be a Christian while doing the opposite of anything Christ ever taught.

Why do you feel that it is your mission to destroy the works and words of Christ in that way?

That's really the problem in pretty much all of these conflicts. These people have been killing each otehr for 5000 years. No one even remembers why it started, outside of what they teach thier kids in religious mythology.

If you ask the people on the ground carrying the rifles how it all started you either get a blank stare, or a shrug and "they started it"

“We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.”

G. Bernard Shaw

i hear ya, sighsnootles, i read ya

(this conflict is a very good reason to invent a practical time machine...or airborne GMOs...)

time to get a global force together of warrior monks who owe allegance to humanity and who actually are given the power to interfere with soverignity

"...a good story is not the same thing as a well-told story..."

from here

Apparently, the US is sending troops to Egypt - something that Nethanyahu demanded as part of a deal. The US has also established bases surrounding Iran - this despite the fact that the UN has consistently said it has no evidence that iran is developing a nuclear bomb.

I'm afraid we live in interesting times.

Graeme,

 How much more evidence do you require to see that Hamas, Egypt and Iran are joined in an effort to attack Israel?

Your bizarre "alliegance and association" with Jewish communities does not work.

And your posts over the past few years on many threads has always been pro-Arab/anti-Isaraeli.

It is difficult in on-line writing to discern skepticism or sarcasm, although occassionianlly you make it clear-ish.

The government of Israel has shown restraint.  International media has not reported on the daily attacks accurately that have lead to this conflict; this has been evolving not only for decades, but escalating in the last four years.

If anyone believes that 25  Gaza dwelling men were harmlessly farming at the border of Gaza/Israel during the tentative truce fire, then those people are mis-informed.

Morsy failed at trying to be a key member in negotiating peace, while also being a key leader in Islamic affiliations.  And he made his dicision clear when he declared a dictatorship yesterday.

He tried to sit on the fence for only a few days, before re-creating exactly the same governance that Egyptian citizens rallied against during the Arab Spring.

There is no doubt that conflict is wrong.

There is, however, an ability to understand that when people have no regard for lives lost, using civilians in their own communities as shields and targeting ènemy`civilians as targets as well, this is a very difficult situation. 

And I state it boldly; Israel has more restraint right now than the Hamas in Gaza.

And has done so for years. 

redhead, what is your opinion about the illegal settlements? How should we respond to those?

Hi Northwind,

After watching news reports from varioius sources, e.g. CBC, BBC, CNN (truthfully I avoid Fox but I have even taken a peek), after reading the Globe and Mail and Toronto Star NY Times and Washington Post daily, and listening to news radio when I am in transit, one of the common ground stories I hear most, and this is no surprise:  people living on both sides of the fence just want peace.

Me too.

I have no answer for how òthers should respond.

I suggest that if people are surprised at what has happened, and thought that over the years the state of Israel was the primary aggressor in this situation, then consider why Israel has such a sophisticated siren and drone system.  That kind of effort (and money spent) would only exist if there is consistent threat of attack and real attack.  So for all the times that people talk about refugees living in squalor/lacking freedom and Israel`s lack of sympathy or assistance, consider this discussion:  why is it that Hamas members receive weapons of all kinds (notWMD) from other Arab countries, but not any real support to improve living conditions and/or economy.  If there is money for rockets, then there is money that could be spent on building better, peaceful living conditions.  Radical, violent  Hamas members use its own civilians in the same way that rockets are launched at "enemy" civilians - with blatant disregard for life.

The problem is forty five years old, but it started because of attacks on Israel.  Fast forward to 2006, when the blockade started re Gaza, it started because of escalating Hamas attacks. 

The West Bank situation is slightly different, and there is possibly a much greater chance at negotiating a more peaceful existence now. 

This second attempt at truce is shaky at best, and I do not expect it to last.  Especially with what is currently happening in Egypt.  I would be pleasantly surprised and grateful if the truce lasted into  late next week.

The UN does not recognize Hamas.  Until the violence stops, I really doubt that the UN position will change.  So, right now, I side with the UN.

Of course, everyone  is free to think, say and do whatever he or she feels is right.  But maybe that is one of the stumbling blocks to truce as well.  ;)

you're right, redhead. All my zionist friends are anti-semites.

People like you and Mely would be irrelevant - and that would be okay - except that you are not irrelevant. Your are contributing to the destruction of Israel.

I know there is not the slightest possibility you will see that or that you will ever see anything you don't want to see.

Incidentally, thank you for your inspirational notes showing that you have grasped the full meaning of "love thy neighbour".

The flyers were dropped  to warn people to stay away from certain areas--but the thing is, Gazans couldn't flee anywhere else because of the blockades,they were sequestered in and they had no sophisticated warning systems or reinforced bomb shelters--so they were damned if they do, damned if they don't. Nowhere to go. And nothing they could do about it. Seeing the photos of the kids broke my heart, and Idon't care what nationalitythey are. Kids are kids. I realize that Israeli kids got killed too and that is equally sad--not as many--but that doesn't make the situation okay from either side. This should not be happening, and how anyone thinks that a military solution is just everyday par for the course is beyond me. It is not a solution--time and time again, they go at it, tit-for-tat, killing people--and it just gets worse. It's a small area, they need to find a way to share and to stop this madness.

I am with those who stand with the everyday citizens--and the children-- who are not at fault for any of this, on either side, who want peace for all.

If today's New York Times editors were in charge in 1943:

http://mediacdn.disqus.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/390/4233/original.jpg

You are a disgusting piece of racist garbage Mely. Every breath you use to voice your scabbrous shit filled mouth of vomitous excreta is wasted air.

Can I be any clearer?

Do you have something to say EO? Do you think it's OK for someone like Mely to abuse the memory of the death of millions of people to promote a racist agenda?

Or do you oppose that kind of filth?

At least I have the guts to stand up and be counted. Do you?

Palestinian is a race, and Islam in this context is primarily a race based religion, so that little weasselling won't apply.

Did you see the image Mely p[osted where wh makes a joke about the holocaust to promote her racist agenda against Palestinians?

I don't care if you find it offensive. I'm offended that you support her racism and try to water down her filth in order to make that same filth nlook like it's just a disagreemnet.

I've put up with her blatant hatemongering for some time, and treated her far better than she deservved, but when you make a joke of the histories most heinous racist crime in order to support racism, that's stepping over the line that I draw in the sand.

If you're too much of a racist to see that, then so be it.

If you're too much of a coward to draw a line, then so be it.

There comes a time when you have to stand up and call a spade a spade. I'll pay whatever price I have to, with head held high and a clear conscience before God, but I won't sugarcoat that kind of filth, especially from someone who claims to be a Christian.

graeme,

do you believe the many non-Israeli tribes of Gaza are being mistreated/treated immorally/unfairly?  Got any sources?

Inanna...are you serious? Can you ask? Can you seriously believe I am going to spend hours digging out sixty years of evidence of abuse, all the UN condemnations of Israeli behaiour that were blocked by the US veto, the use of Palestine as a giant concentration camp? the theft of Palesitinian land even within present day borders? the streets in Israeli cities where Palestinians are not permitted to walk? the Israeli Palestinians who have been evicted to create Jewish only areas?

You might want to check out a site called Canadian for Justice and Peace in the Middle East. I know many of the organizers of it. They are devout and observant Jews and, most of them, Zionists.

The Israeli lobby, which Mely which Mely takes to like a hog to mud, calls the CJPME a terrorist organization. Unnlike Mely, I know many of them quite well. There's nothing terrorist about them.  Unlike Israel, they do not have assassination squads roaming the world.

Mely is not racist. She is eager to know, but is extraordinarily naive.

Seroiusly, Graeme

Whenever you are asked to back up your opinion with fact, you deflect and attack.  If you are the historian you purport to be, then bring on the evidence that backs your arguments.

If she is not, then the word has no meaning whatsoever.

Hey Witch!  That drawer knob avatar is a bore.  Shouldn't you have something that looks more "wicked"?

HISS!  SNARL!

Why? Because he is a member of the Wicca faith and therefore must be evil? Or is it because he is sticking up for those who are not here to defend themselves? 

I don't think I've ever seen Mely post anything that wasn't anti-Islam.

I suppose slagging my religion in return for my opposing racism is about the best I could have expected from you.

Gotta love it when Christians double down on the bigotry of other Christians.

Ever wonder why your faith is seen as a joke by young people, even from your own families? It's partly because you have a ridiculous and often hateful faith, that is no better than the faiths you put down. Stuff like the above just cements this position.

redhead -1. There is no such thing as fact. the word you are searching for is evidence.

                 2. The evidence you suggest would take me days to put together. And there is not the slightest chance that people like you and Mely would pay the slightest attention to it.

                 3. When I write for serious scholars, I add footnotes, etc.

                  4. I have not been overawed by the evidence (proof) I see coming from either you or Mely.

Hi graeme,

I, for one, promise to pay a great deal of attention to it.  Take as many days as you need.  Thank you in advance for your effort.

No, Lookin Up.  See his point #3.  You're not worth his effort.  No-one on here is.

The only religions it is permissible to criticize around here are conservative Christianity and Judaism.   Everything else gets a pass no matter how bad they are.  

Not permissible?  Is an admin deleting your posts?

Translation:

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!! You're being bad for not praising my racism and religious bigotry.  WAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

Funny that 50 years ago your ilk was telling us how Satanic and evil those filthy Jews were.... now you're acting like their your God. Your hypocrisey and duplicity is underwhelming.

I really, Really, REALLY hope God gives you the damnation you so richly deserve

I note the bias as well (and I'm sure others do as well).  This place was *never* a free speech board where any speech is allowed -- there are other places on the net that are like that (and even some of the most free speechy like the Well have their social norms).  As always, the Sysops are the Ultimate Arbiters and I have run into their biases and wishes (and am still learning them...), some of which seem contradictory to me (for that is what social norms can seem to someone on the outside...)

In the admins' favour they never have edited some of my posts without talking to me first or showing what has been edited like BCF (the Sysop of that Islam Blog Carnival) has done.

Cheer up -- the 'net is huge and WC is a tiny, tiny "market" -- there are better and less stressful places for you to release your dragonpugTM -- that is, unless you enjoy the stress (which is a possibility) :3

Hi Inna, thanks for a rational reply.  I rarely come here, and don't plan to change that.  I would say that this forum has completely put me off Christianity.  It is not just that someone like witch  spews vile crap about me , but that no one here tries to stop him or even sees anything wrong with what he is doing that I find rather stunning.  

This place is a snake pit for anyone who doesn't tow the party line.   

much of understanding the news is using just a little bit of common sense.

For example, in the Petraeus case, we are asked to believe:

1. a clerk of some sort had the power to decide what could be told to the president, and what should be hidden from him

2. The chief of the CIA, therefore, was forced to send the president a report which he knew to be false - and to sign it.

3.The chief of the CIA was forced to resign because of an affair.

4. His biographer was assigned to him by coldly impartial literary agents. She just happened to be gorgeous, have a great body, and a considerable measure of availability.

Get serious. No government I have ever heard of has ever given a damn about the infidelities of its higher officers. It was public knowledge that Roosevelt, through all his years as president, was having an affair with his secretary. It was well known that  Eisenhower had a very public affair. Ditto for Patton.

And common sense should tell us that the idea of somebody - anybody, and especially some anonymous clerk- having the authority to tell the chief of the CIA to lie to the president is absurd.

Petraeus was fired for some political reason. It had nothing to do with Paula, though she may have been the agent of a setup.

Also common sense - no government gives a damn about protecting any other country unless it benefits its own country. You don't need footnotes to figure that out, either. Why is the US giving more money and weapons to Israel than to any other country in the world? It has nothijng to do with sentiment. Israel is useful to the US, and to the control of oil supplies in the middle east.    BUT...

The US has just discovered huge oil resources of its own. Saudi Arabia is running out of oil. The cost of maintaining control in the region is killing the US financially. It also now must devote money and forces to contain China.

In the 1990s, US neo cons launched their blue print for the New American Century. It''s been on the web for years and the purpose is clear. World conquest. read it some day. They were the ones who began the current round of wars under Bush.

Now, the US is broke, so broke that if things get worse the US runs a serious risk of public disorder (to put it mildly). It can't afford to conquer Africa and the middle east. That's why Britain and France are sniffing around the edges, through NATO, to resume their imperial days. Guess who used to control Syria?

But Turkey has its own ambitions. So does Netanyahu.

But the US can't afford to cater to those people any more. Nor does it really need the middle east any more. It wants out so it can concentrate on China.

However, the neo cons are stilll strong in the Republican pary - and they still want The New American Century.

Petraeus was well known as a v ery right wing republican and a warhawk and highly thought of by the neo-cons. They still believe the US can conquer the world.

Obama has decided it can't. Israel no longer has its old value to the US.

If I have to draw a picture, I think we will be watching a US retreat from Afghanistan and from Africa and the middle east. Britain, France, possibly Germany and Russia will be looking for ways to replace American dominance in those regions - just as the US used the second world war to replace their imperial dominance.

Powerful and ruthless people in the US are deeply split on this issue. I think Obama is going to play hardball. The firing of generals too fond of war is just strike one.

The stakes are huge. An assassination or two, even of a president, is not impossible.

2013 is going to be one hell of a dangerous year. And if I were a president of Israel, I would forget dreams of a "Greater Israel", and concentrate on getting peace dealsas soon as possible.

If you have common sense, you can figure that if you lie down to sleep on a railway track your chances being killed are high. You don't need need footnotes. I've seen lots of lies told with footnotes. You need common sense, and a realistic idea of how people and nations act.

Somegal, chanson & all the rest of you (excluding redhead, Inna)
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My unpleasant response to Witch was based on his disgusting, disgraceful insult to my sister (yes, biological sister) Mely. Why doesn't someone call him out on that, can you tell me?
.
Chanson, I don't give a damn about what religion Witch is. It was his rude statement to my sister which infuriated me. And none of you called him on it.
.
Truly, this is a snake pit.

Hi Mely,

In all fairness, this is not a Christian forum and should not be used as a barometer for Christianity. If you are interested in a Christian forum that is not anti-Israel, I know of a very good one. Please send me a WonderMail if you would like the address.

Finding sites that are not anti-Israel is not a weakness of Mely's.

I'm terribly sorry if calling a spade a spade upsets you.

If you don't like having your vile racism pointed out plainly, perhaps you shouldn't bring it here.

If my sister had used the holocaust as a joke to promote racism and bigotry, I'd be kicking her ass down the street, not defending it for her.

But I guess that's the difference between you and me. I fight racism and bigotry.... you defend it. I won't appologise for calling what came out of her mouth the filth that it is.

Mely is not a Christian by even the most liberal interpretation of any measure of Christianity by either the Bible, or by Christ's example. Christ had a lot of things to say about people like her, and none of it very nice.

So, Mely posts comments and links, Witch calls her on it - and somehow Witch and anyone who agrees with him are the bad guys? 

Prove us wrong Mely. Post something that will surprise us. Post something that is positive about Islam for once.

What sort of god does a witch involk to damn someone?
You keep saying I am a Christian but in fact this site has turned me off Christianity and I have gone back to being an athiest. So you can spare me the sanctimonious crap about how I am a terrible Christian.

I took a screen shot of your damnation (in the remote case that someone at this Christian site decides it is inappropriate). Being damned to hell by a witch will be my keepsake of the years I tried to belong to UCC. I love the irony.