Some reader comments,
.
By "NorwegianBear"
.
Greece is bankrupt. Loaning more money to Greece at best will delay the inevitable but not by much. This is a lesson Americans need to take to heart. America is every bit as broke as is Greece, but with the difference that the Feds are printing money to keep the gears running. We all know that is also a solution that just delays the inevitable. What seems nearly impossible for the left to comprehend is that government can actually run out of money, and that America, like Greece in fact has been out of money for a long time--that we are now in an artificial bubble that can only be reversed by some very aggressive measures to revive our economy. Obama is promising investment, but he has no money to invest. He is promoting shared sacrifice, but there are not enough resources to share.

"rimmini2",
.
So let me get this straight. Greece was headed for a default before the bailouts. It needed 157 Billion in loans just to meet its creditors. Now it has those loans but because the money goes to its creditors Greece has no money. The joke is that Greece took this money to avoid going bankrupt... and yet it is just that. So tell me who did the bailout help? No one but the bankers and bond holders. It certainly did not help the Greeks themselves.

you are such a trooper; thanks for giving us this info :3

 

i guess if we had an International Police Force (ie. angels of G_d) before this reached this time the problem would have been 'dealt with'

 

maybe that is what will end up happening when humanity gets through this crisis?

"Greek Taxpayer"'
.
Joshua, you really need to look below the surface in all these cases. Just what is a company such as Medical Service Limited? Why are there so many similar tiny companies in the Greek medical sector? Who is in its management structure, beyond Mr Stamos? Why are there so many tiny, tiny Greek companies with no transparent management structure beyond the owner/boss? How can a company such as this have only 8 employees? Has it ever had a growth or expansion strategy? Why don't these tiny, tiny Greek companies, especially the ones replicating exactly the same tasks, ever merge so we can have larger, dynamic companies with stronger assets and more interesting career potentials for their employees? Why do their single owners-bosses never want to merge with each other or expand?
.
Also, why are there so many tiny, tiny companies in sectors that are essentially "parastic" to the Greek state (i.e. their main or even sole purpose is to sell to the Greek state)? How do they get their contracts? Why do such companies almost always have a single owner/boss, especially when it would be so much more viable to have larger companies with more complex and productive management structures? Would such tiny companies have been able to survive for so long in any other country? If not, how is it that they have proliferated and become such a strong model for "business" in Greece?
.
Is this an impressive company website? Can you imagine such a company website in any country other than Greece? http://www.medical...ICALSERVICELTD.htm
.
The main question to ask is: how viable are these companies? Were they actually making a profit/reasonable turnover before 2010 and thus paying employees and making procurements through their profit? Or were salaries being paid and purchases being made through bank loans? Would banks in any other country have given loans to such companies even prior to 2010? Moreover, let's not forget the black market, which is rife in the medical sector in Greece. Take a look at that please, Joshua!
.
And, it again needs to be asked, why is the government of a bankrupt country with a population of under 11 million, such as Greece, still paying 8 billion euros a year on brand medicines, despite all the efforts for a greater push to generics? Why is the medical profession blocking this move?

" J_R",
.
@Greek taxpayer you make excellent points but to summarize the Greek government is dysfunctional. The recent election has not changed this.
.
Greece must solve its own as the Eurozone is dead.

"Costas R."
.
@Greek taxpayer: You are absolutely right about the unclear nature of these companies, particularly in the health sector. However even huge touristic investments are suffocating because the government is refusing to return millions in VAT exemptions they have already paid.
.
To stop small personal business from leaching on public money, we need clear rules. Not suspension of payments by the government. Isn't it so?
-----------------

"Greek taxpayer"
.
Certainly Costas R., I wasn't suggesting suspension of payments by the government, only outlining the bacground situation. I would, however, ask why the state needs to procure medical equipment from these kinds of companies. Also,, much of the tourist industry is comprised of very small, tiny enterprises that do not bring out the full potential of what the country can offer.

Another article on the Euro crisis (does not require subscription)
.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/9337911/Dithering-Europe-is-heading-f...

Inanna,
Please don't post large pictures in this thread. It causes the iPad to resize the display, making the print unreadable. If you have a relevant picture, please start another thread. Thanks.
.
This is serious. Please keep comments on topic.

so it is done :3

EasternOrthodox, not much time to post this morning but I want so say that I believe what's happening in Greece is about to happen in the rest of world very soon. But in the long run I don't think this'll be be a bad thing. In fact, I believe this'll be a necessary pain to experience before we can start the new age of peace. Yes, there will be tragic stories and a lot of finanicial loss, what we are witnessing is the fall of a modern Roman Empire. One can't, however, put new wine in old bottles, and the fall of current monetary system is the fall of an already corrupt system that feeds the rich and does very little for the poor. The stock market is nothing but a gambling house where one person's gain is another's loss. Our current system of exploitation of 3rd world countries has to be brought down in order for a newer and more just system to replace it. And it has to be replaced with a system where the spirit of sharing and justice is king. There is no other way.


According to the current world teacher, "without sharing there can be no justice; without justice there can be no peace; without peace, there can be no future."


Our current economic model is not based on sharing or justice.

Let's hope for everyone's sake we don't get a "fall of Rome". That would take the whole world economy down, cause immense suffering, probably starvation, sickness, death.
.
We need to work with what we've got -- change it, yes. The stock market is not just for gambling. That is untrue. However, it is true that much gambling-like behaviour is going on next to legitimate business. It is especially bad in an area called derivatives, where the majority of transactions have no business function and are effectively gambling.
.
It is really complex. I've been reading a lot about it and there is a huge amount to learn.
.
But calls to dismiss the entire system are wrong. That would be a disaster, IMO.

I should add more comments on what is happening, but it hard for me to type. I'll try.
.
The EZ (Eurozone) is a currency union of 17 countries. The UK is not part of it. The largest members are Germany and France.
.
It is now clear to everyone that currency union was badly flawed. The financial cultures of Germany and Greece could hardly be more different. Germany is doing quite well, but is resisting calls to transfer funds directly to Greece (Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ireland are also in bad shape, but not as bad as Greece).
.
I just have to stop typing now.

EO, 

 

It is my understanding that Greece has been in trouble financially for a long time and that it wsa going to get worse due to social policies such as retirement.

 

When put under the microscope, it is seen that they are overvaluing themselves.   

 

in other words, when looked at, it was seen that the neighbour with the flashy house, car, clothes, holidays was mortgaged to the hilt and every credit card was at its max.

 

There were bound to be corrections when this kind of magnifying glass is put on a country. 

 

The question is, will they be better or worse for it.   If a country is overextended, then would they have been likely to start a war or have a civil war when it could no longer be hid?

 

 

 

 

 

Pinga,
You are right. In fact the Greek government lied about the state of its economy to get into the EZ. Once they were in, suddenly they could borrow money at the same rate as Germany (ie, the govt could sell bonds at the same low interest rate as Germany).
.
So the govt went on a huge spending binge. Now they are broke and seriously in debt.
.
But many banks across Europe have purchased Greek govt bonds. This is the reason why the EZ leaders don't want Greece to default on its debt (there has already been a partial default, part has been written off).
.
The EU is paralyzed with indecision. They don't know what to do. The fact that it is made up of 17 different countries just adds to the paralysis.
.
And now Spain is having trouble floating bonds.
.
It's just a disaster. Part of the EZ rules forbid capital controls, so huge amounts of capital have fled Greece for places like Switzerland and the UK.
.
Also, not paying taxes is endemic in Greece. The wealthy are leaving, buying expensive places in London, etc, stable countries outside the EZ.
.
Bizarre extremist parties are forming. There are neo-Nazi's (over 7% of the vote) plus extreme leftists, old time communists (not as popular as the Nazi's).
.
Retirement Age
.
Pinga mentioned this and it is currently a hot topic in the EZ. Germany has increased their retirement age to 67 just recently.
.
For years, France allowed people to retire at 60 provided they had 40 years of work in. The former French president Sarkozy increased it to 62. This caused a huge uproar, and was partly responsible for Sarkozy losing the election to socialist Hollande, who immediately returned it to 60.
.
This type of discrepancy between countries creates ill will should there be a request for the higher age country (Germany) to transfer funds to a struggling lower age country. The German citizens are of course, dead set against it. So far, this is not an issue although France itself is getting a little shaky these days.
.
The situation in Greece is a joke. Certain professions deemed to be hazardous permit retirement at 55. But in the usual Greek manner, this now includes such dangerous professions as hair-dressers and radio announcers.
.
For some time now many Europeans have been begging Germany to cough up the cash: they want "Eurobonds". In other words, the whole EZ would stand behind the bond. This would allow Greece to again borrow at a lower rate. Thus far, Germany has refused. Stalemate.

you know, it is like a family, you have someone who is nice, but messes up and may actually fib a bit.  they take advantage.  there are kids involved.

 

who puts down the hammer and how it is put down is not easy, especially as there are many factors (other kids).

 

 

You see the family metaphor quite a bit. Here's a recent example,
.
"Even if Greece stays in the European Union, relations with fellow EU members will never be the same – sort of like the spendthrift brother-in-law who welches on family loans and at tense holiday dinners sulks off by himself."
.
-Victor Davis Hanson, link,
.
http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/greeks-359839-greece-european.html

yup, well, because I think it is a good analogy.

 

The spendthrift brother doesn't describe himself in that way.  He feels that life is for the living.  One must enjoy each other, and care for the less able to care for themselves.

EO,

My experience of Greece is largely anecdotal.

 

Back in the 50's and 60's Australia received a lot of Greek immigrants. They came mainly from the islands - and came to escape poverty and seek a more affluent lifestyle. (So much so, that Melbourne was the third biggest Greek city in the world - after Athens and Thessalonika).

 

When Greece first went into the EU things began to change. Greece appeared wealthy -helped along by credit card debt, and many returned to their homeland.

 

Western capitalism is based on consumerism - and credit cards are a means the world over to increase consumerism.

If folks "consume' more than they can afford sooner or later they go broke.

The same holds true for countries.......

 

Greece is just the beginning........

 

Canada and Australia are doing comparatively better because we are both resource rich countries. That said, we are consuming far more than we need, and depending on credit card debt as a nation rather than going without.

 

 

 

 

Pilgrim,
Yes, Greece is just the beginning and that is the problem. Greece is pretty small and if it were Greece alone the rest of the EZ would just bail them out.
.
But it is far worse than that, as you know. Ireland went bust four years ago as a result of a wild real estate bubble. The country is now littered with housing projects that are only partly occupied or totally empty. The buildings are decaying and eventually will have to be bulldozed. Ireland has had four years of strict austerity as the price of getting outside help. But the Irish are being stoic, there is none of the wild rioting you see in Greece.
.
Now Spain is up next--also a real estate bubble. The market will not buy their bonds except at a high rate of interest. Right now, Spain wants money to go directly into their banks from the EZ bailout fund. If it goes to the banks--choking on mortgages that will never be repaid--then it does not appear as Spanish govt debt. An accounting kludge.
.
Germany is resisting. They are being harassed by various parties to cough up the money: including the International Monetary Fund (IMF).
.
Portugal is also in bad shape although there was no real estate bubble or wild spending. Rather, they have fallen into debt as one factory after another left for China.
.
Then there's Italy. It is on the edge too.
.
So you can see that Germany is just not big enough to bail all these countries out.
.
Germany is also being harassed to accept Eurobonds--backed effectively by Germany. Angela Merkel won't agree to Eurobonds without an fiscal union, in which the debtor countries cede control of their economies to the EZ. That is a huge step that could take years to implement.
.
Stalemate.
.
Others recommend the EZ just print money. Germany says no.
.
Canada and Oz have indeed been sheltered by our resources. But even we are not safe: we have been selling to China. China was roaring ahead, but China cannot prosper without being able to sell its manufactures. With the US still struggling and Europe going down, China too is starting to falter.
.
That means Canada and Oz will be hit.
.
Very depressing, isn't it?
.
Schools of Thought
.
1. Print money. This causes inflation, but will ease the situation. The US has been through two money-printing jobs, but is starting to falter again because of Europe.
.
2. Austerity. Govt cutbacks on a massive scale as the govt tries to whittle down their debt.
.
Whole libraries have been written on how to manage this type of situation (now becoming akin to the Great Depression of the 1930's for the indebted nations). Arguments rage about what to do. There is a third alternative,
.
3. Let the failing banks go bankrupt, with only deposits insured. This would cascade across the world as the banks hold much of the govt debt.
.
I don't mean to paint Germany as a nasty. They are just very fiscally conservative as a nation. They went through hyper-inflation caused by printing money in the 1920's. That was finally brought under control with very strict austerity.[1]
.
Under austerity, there are massive govt cutbacks and high unemployment. We are somewhat better off than the 1930's due to social safety nets (but those get eroded by govt cutbacks), but mostly because the world is collectively smarter and is trying desperately not to fall into that situation again.
.
Unemployment is running at 25% in Greece, Spain, Ireland, Portugal and it's not good in Italy either.
.
I should mention how the EZ is exacerbating the problem. If Greece had its own currency, it's value would fall relative to places like Germany. So its exports would get cheaper, although it doesn't have much to export. It relies a lot on tourism. If it had its own devalued currency, it would become a bargain destination for Germans and they would visit in large numbers. But they trapped by the common currency.
.
At present, Greece is trashing its reputation as a place to vacation with endless strikes and riots. It doesn't help that some irresponsible newspapers are printing cartoons of Merkel dressed with a swastika and complaining about WW II. Germans are not going there for vacations so much these days.

[1]. This needs to be said. The combination of austerity, an (unfounded) belief that Germany only lost WW I because it was "stabbed in the back" by traitors as home plus the need to pay war reparations led to Hitler and the Nazi's getting in power.
.
Now I don't want to suggest this is likely to happen in Europe again--the youth there are not much into the military.
.
But the strikes and riots could escalate to terrorism.

The collapse of the world economy would probably cause more panic than hardhship. People would definately lose millions and millions of dollars, mostly on paper, but I suspect it would be a huge wake up call. And waking up is exactly what this world needs right now. Millions and millions of people are living abject poverty today, 1 in 7 people, it's estimated, are going hungry every day. How can a world live like this? An economic crash may just be what the doctor ordered for our ailing society. Maybe if the playing field was levelled we would begin to act on the poverty in the world and begin to share the world's resources a little more. Heaven knows that it ain't happening now while 20% of the world use 80% of the worlds wealth.

Neo,

 

have you ever heard of the Great Leap Forward?

 

And that was only China

I'm not suggesting a communistic, unthinking and uncaring reform where the government makes takes control over the people. The people have to take care of the people with full awareness, compassion and sincerity.


I don't know how a new system of world economics could replace our current system, but I do know that there has to be a better way. Any global system where the wealth parade before the poor and the interests of the banks and huge corporations take precedent over the welfare of the people is doomed to failure. That time of failure is now. The ones in poverty would love to see this house of cards come down, they have nothing to lose and for many it simply couldn't get any worse.

double post

Any economic system can break down. Any economic system can produce terror and brutality. All of them already have. The horrors of Mao's China went on under capitalism in central america, congo, and many other countries. They are still going on.

For capitalism, the standard method of dealing with economic disorder has been to blame the poor. make them pay, encourage racism, encourage fascism. Fascism was an eminently capitalist system. That's why the US did NOT go to war against it. (it was Germany that declared war on the US three weeks after Pearl Harbour.)

Count on racism, severe government repression and, quite possibly, fascism in Greece, Spain - maybe Britain. (The collapse economically and morally of Britain has been little noticed for some reason.)

In practical terms, the US is already fascist (and I'm using the dictionary to say that.) Canada is close behind.

 

So there is no part of you, even if only a little, that is getting a hard on from the notion that such sinful people as yourself (not among the poverty-stricken, living the high life, how dare we have fresh running water, tv, freedom to associate, ability to eat at McDs, etc) are alive?

 

I know I have that part that is delighting at the concept of the breakdown...

An interesting topic is developing here, introduced by Neo, that the economic slowdown might be good for us.
.
However, I'm more pessimistic, although not quite as pessimistic as Graeme. People are not happy with what the economists call "austerity".
.
Part of the unhappiness is that it is not uniform. The unemployed are the ones being forced into a more modest lifestyle.
.
Still, I am pondering it. Maybe a separate thread.
.
For example, consumption went way down during the Great Depression. No doubt it delayed global warming. But on other measures -- like helping bring Hitler to power-- it was a disaster.
.
Re: Graeme's contention that we blame the poor. I've not noticed this, perhaps you have an example?

Are you suggesting that there is part of me that somehow "gets off" on the fact that I'm not "among the poverty-stricken, living the high life.." (which I don't, btw)? This is an very strange question to me and one that I must be misunderstanding. Please explain.


Fresh water, food, safety and education should not be reserved for the middle to upper class. These are the basic necessities of life that everyone, everywhere should enjoy. Nobody is meant to starve. The fact that this is happening today and in our midsts is an atrocity, a grave sin against nature. We will look back at this time one day and be amazed that our society and our economic culture let this happen.

Neo,

 

no, that you feel guilty for having the life you have right now?

 

I write this from the pov that I have these feelings too

I do feel guilty and very, very grateful that I live in a country like Canada where nobody starves to death - we do have social safety nets that provide housing and food for our most poor. When I read, however, about the appalling conditions in the poorest countries of the world I feel guilty that have what I have. This is they way we should all feel.

 

So you're determining in a way how these other people, of 'poor' status, should be feeling and interpreting their state, that it is absolutely horrific and they are that way because we, in a way, made them that way?

Whole libraries also exist on the problem of the poorer countries, why they are poor and how --if possible -- this can be changed.
.
The problem is more complex than you might realize, Neo. The last famine, in Somalia, was caused by dry weather, a local war that made it hard to get supplies in, and a relentlessly increasing population.
.
I wouldn't say it was the fault of the more prosperous world.
.
We're getting off topic. No one in Greece is starving, but the situation isn't good and this is a prosperous world problem.

again, forgive me EO :3

I agree, I don't think the western has caused all these problem directly as there are many complex forces at play from many sides. And I know we're getting off topic here but let me just say that while it's very complex as to answer why these countries slide into poverty, the answer is very, very simple.

So what's the simple answer?

More K-Y?

To share the resources of the world among everyone. This is why, I believe, that Jesus gave us one single commandment and that was to "love one another".

That's easy to say, not so simple to execute (sharing).
.
With Somalia, it was not possible for aid organizations to enter the area (they would have been killed). Only those Somalis who could make it to the Kenyan border could be given food.
.
And the problem in recession-struck countries of Europe is even more difficult to sort out (although no one is actually starving). There is no simple answer. The goal is to get the economies of these troubled countries running again. That's a lot harder than just delivering food aid.
.
I had intended this thread to discuss economics.

Oh yea, I didn't say that the simple solution was easy to implement. As you say, currently the corruption within those countries make it near impossible to get the aid in there.


But nevertheless the simple solution stands, it's the only way to solve our problems. In fact I believe that when we do start share (safely) then we're going to see many of our problems begin to disappear.


So how do we rid the world of corruption first? I personally believe that the human race is standing on the very edge of a great awakening, a revelation that'll stir the vast majority of us to the very soul. So many in fact that our voices will demand peace and we will have it. The Arab Spring movements and the Occupy movements that begun in 2011 are the beginning of the end of corruption in our world, (so I believe anyway). Once the world begins to speak with one voice then anything is possible.


Now I know you wanted to discuss economics but this is very much related. The current world of economics is run by corruption. The soulless corporations and banks of the world are reaching the end of their reign and the voice of the people are on verge of making a real difference in world decisions, including world economics. Demanding that the poor and destitute are safe, fed and housed should be our first order of business.


Karma/cause & effect is a very real thing in our lives: we simply cannot live in peace while half of the world lives in poverty.

OK, we're on different planets. I don't agree but my arm too sore to type much.
.
I expect next to nothing from Occupy and Arab Spring is not looking very promising either, but I will leave that to the Arabs to sort out--it's their revolution.
.
So I can't really discuss the various ways one might end this recession, I guess there is really no one on the site interested in economics. Like you, most see it as in league with evil corporations. No problem. There are other sites.

Fair enough EO, you'll probably never convince me either that the banks and corrporations of the world have our best interest in mind.


Cheers.

We do blame the poor. The US bailed the banks out, cut social spending to do it - which hurt the poor, gave no help whatever to those who lost their homes due to the mishandling of the banks. Not a single banker faced charges for some pretty obvious lawbreaking. Everybody is harping on austerity as the cure. And who pays for austerity?

The US and Europe should have done what  Iceland did - not give a cent to the banks and, as iceland did just today arrest and charge the leading bankers.

They should also have taken over the banks. And please don't tell me that government wouldn't know how to run banks. It knows quite well - and obviously better than private bankers do.

What has happened is the biggest theft in world history, and the most massive redistribution of wealth from everybody else to the rich in just a generation. Capitalism (or that travesty of corruption and greed that we call capitalism) has pretty clearly demonostrated that it cannot handle an economy. If you don't start from that obvious fact, you will get nowhere. If left alone, what you, wrongly, call capitalism will protect itself with force, and probably complete its tranisition to fasciism.

That's if we're lucky.

If we aren't lucky, the powers of our capitalism will push us into more idiot wars that have so far helped to break the western economies without accomplishing anything. And, inevitably, that will force a nuclear showdown.

Any change in the pattern will almost certainly involve violence - with who knows what result. There is no way that the giants of capitalism will permit a democratic solution.

And economics cannot be separated from political and power realities.

Actually Graeme, I agree with you. The bankers who unleashed this whole thing got off scot-free. They should have let more of them go bankrupt.
.
Europe is especially bad--worse the US.
.
Who benefits? The bond holders. Who loses? The tax-payers. What lesson have the bad bankers learned? Nothing.
.
It's not capitalism when you can run a bank into the ground and walk away with your years of huge salaries and bonuses.
.
But the vested interests are too strong.
.
And the US should have fired a few civil servants who let this happen. But no one got fired. Bernanke is still running the Fed. The failure of the regulators in the US is mind-boggling.
.
I've seen this conversation many times in the comment sections of the financial papers.
.
Quite a few smaller banks in the US went bankrupt. The Europeans are worse than the US the way they won't let them go bankrupt.

When it comes to Greece or any other country it's far too simplistic to just "blame" one area of society.

 

 

Democracy is dying -if not already dead. Clearly, in practice one vote doesn't equal another.

 

 

The media is more pervasive than ever - and who owns and controls the media - has the ability to bombard the public to think what suits the owners of media and large corporations.

Put simply, we are not "there" -thus we rely on the various arms of the media to inform us.

(Think of how the British PM was recently quizzed about the role of Rupert Murdoch's media on his government).

 

 

I think the working man plays his/her part also.

To maintain decent working conditions folks once heavily supported unionism. This is not the case today - even though then, as now, the collective right to withdraw labour is the only real power the worker has.

To add to the problem, globalisation means that labour can be outsourced -and that "guest workers" can be brought in.......... 

 

In recent times the worker has acquired a strange sense of entitlement - regardless of income, when it comes to "stuff".

 

I accept that the media, through advertising, and the banks, through credit cards, encourage this attitude. At the same time, there has to be a measure of personal responsibility that says, "no, we can't afford it".

 

 

Like Graeme and others, I'm pessimistic about where the world's heading. European countries have unemployment as high as one in four -and there is thus a predictable growth in both far left and right movements.

 

 

But, what depresses me most, is the realisation that self-interest is the prime motivator for all.

Yes, it's obvious when it comes to the big corporations and the wealthy, but it's also true for the rest of us.

Australia is a comparatively wealthy country, and yet the way we on a government level treat refugees (often fleeing countries where we ourselves are at war and involved in killing innocent people) is simply appalling. 

One reason I often hear is that "they'll take our jobs" or "they'll lower our living standards".

In other words - self-interest........

 

 

And, I'm even more cynical.....

 

Who protests the most about the plight of the world's poor and disadvantaged? Those that are enjoying a good standard of living in wealthy countries, that's who.

 

I am one of those people.

Now retired on a comfortable pension, not for me the worry of losing my job. The same goes for intelligent, well-educated professional folks. They're in a position to consider morals and ethics........

 

Deep, deep down I have a question that I can't answer - not because it's hypothetical, but because I might not like the answer.

What if I personally lost all my advantages - would I still say,  believe, and act what is ethically right?

 

Much to think about, Pilgrims, but my arm is too sore now.
.
One thing to note-we are not just restricted to the standard media anymore. For one thing, there are comment sections in the papers, I've learned all sorts of things there. Not as good as being there, but much better than the standard media alone.
.
The comment section of a paper like the Financial Times is surprisingly good.
.
There are also blogs and forums. Gotta quit for now.

hah! there's your problem. You've been thinking with your arm.

There are some very good comment sections. But here, in New Brunswick, well - one of the comments columns is always by a staff writer/commentator for the day who tells little stories about how hard it is to raise a canary or some great new guitar that's just come out. (Seriously).

The major function of most newspapers is to keep people uninformed - and to propagandize them. And that's especially true in New Brunswick.

(I'm not sure whether they have newspapers in Australia.)

We're saturated with Murdoch media here - but at least he himself is now an American citizen.

 

Religion might once have been the opiate of the masses - but methinks in Oz it's our newspapers, t.v., and talk-back radio now..........

Oh, talk radio provides employment for the real bozos. I was on air daily for a dozen years, and at least once a day I'd be on with the station's talk show host. never met one who had a brain.

For several years, I was air with a woman who, last I heard, was on radio in Australia - and finding it very much a man's world. I can't remember her name. But you Australians must all know each other - and there can't be many women on radio down there.

Graeme,
I didn't mean the op-ed section of the paper (although I read it) I meant the reader comments (on-line only). Most of my reading is on-line, the papers themselves would be hard if impossible to find in a small city like Victoria.
.
If a paper is free to read, I don't do more than glance at the reader comments. But the Financial Times reader comments are often very informative. They are from all over, mostly Europe and the US. It is interesting to get their perspective on their home countries. You do get cranks, but not many if it's not free.
.
The readers will suggest links or books sometimes too.
.
I don't listen to talk radio much, now and then when I'm driving.