Hunting.

Target shooting (pistol or trap/skeet).

Collecting rare weapons.

There's three valid reasons

Sarah Palin has one.

Aesthetics.

Empowerment.

Protection.

If we live in the city with public transit and taxis, why do we need cars?  If we could only own what we really need, we would have low debt and a very quiet economy, and I would be living in a much smaller home, and probably not spending time on Wondercafe.  I don't own a gun, have no interest in owning a gun, and feel uncomfortable about some of the people that I know own guns, but, if gun owners are responsible with their guns, I am not prepared to ban them, as long as they are registered.

Sorry, you will never convince me that anyone in cities and towns need to own guns for protection or otherwise.

I am afraid of guns.  Even if someone broke into my house and I had a gun, I would be afraid it would be used against me.

I didn't think this thread was aboot you needing to be convinced :3  After all, what do we tell a Christian who doesn't like homosexuality?  "That's alright, you don't have to marry or have sex with a member of the same sex.  But there are those who do and are."

You are absolutely right.  But, then again noboy needs to own cars, or cell phones, or designer clothes, or computers, or televisions, or blenders, or BBQ's, or......

What's your point?

My point is I don't think it is a right that we have written in the Constitution ( like the Americans)

My point is that there have been a couple of threads about guns lately and I wondered what every one thought.

My point is that if there were not guns carelessly placed, innocent people would not be killed.

My point is that if we did not have guns in our homes, there would be none to steal for those up to no good.

My point is that people who want to shoot skeet, belong to rifle clubs etc, lock your guns up there for your use.

My point is that I hate the amount of guns that seem to be everywhere in the community.

My point is that folk who live in the country and need guns to be safe from wild animals, should have them.

My personal point is that I thinks guns do more harm than good.

Years ago, I got in a bruhaha on the cafe because I said I thought everyone should wear seatbelts. I didn't win the argument I don't think but I survived. I will survive on this thread too .

I don't think they are a wise thing to have, as human temperments are short and hasty, and can easily result in hurt feelings (and dead bodies).

Like anything, there are pro's to having possession of a gun, such as protection from wildlife, protection in the police force, but these are qualified privileges. I feel, like crazyheart, they do more harm than good.

Are you calling for a prohibition of firearms?

alta, I am not calling for anything. I am just stating what i believe about guns.

I can accept that.

FWIW, while I could be described as "pro-gun", I am also extremely "pro-safety" and agree with many of your points.

I also agree with you on the seat belt thing, but that's for another day.

I choose not to own a gun.

The problem is that our culture has changed dramatically, and whatever we think, the solutions aren't easy.

I would never condone guns, and feel badly when I read in the Toronto Star almost daily that another young person has been shot or stabbed.

Gang and gun culture is overwhelming in a city like Toronto.  Many of the youth in gangs feel they need guns to protect them from other gang members.

If we could change the values of society, make penalties for illegal gun possession more severe, help troubled youth to find other means of expressing themselves rather than killing each other...that would be a positive.

Any ideas on how to achieve that?

Yeah, I do hope people here are avoiding WCDOGPILING on crazyheart :3

I don't own a gun, never have, but I can grok why people would have them.  I used to be afraid of guns, so, one day, I just decided to believe in guns.  To try adoring them.  To speak and write from the point of view of someone who really enjoyed guns.  I did this for a while.

That helped me grok.

To answer your question Gecko, it is a problem. There was an armed robbery in Saskatoon this morning. So what ever we are doing regarding guns and gun control, we are not doing right.

LOL Inanna....You sound like a character in A Clockwork Orange.

You've got a great imagination :3

(the movie was marvellous)

You should try it some time (like what I did with guns).  There are reasons why we find things to be 'disgusting' or 'hateful' or 'blasphemous' or 'sacred' or 'good', reasons that go beyond the 'It just IS, ok?'

It helps with the practice of agape, too (FIE!  Protestantism rears it's puritanical head even now).

And as for the term grok, if you haven't hoid it before, I got it from Robert Heinlein's fine book Stranger in a Strange Land.  It is a wonderful word, meaning, essentially, to really understand something, one must both EXPERIENCE it and UNDERSTAND it.

So, if you are a Liberal, it would serve you greatly to read Conservative publications once in a while.  If you are a Conservative, it would likewise be of benefit to read Liberal publications.  And so on.

CH -- are you referring to long guns (rifles) or short-guns (handguns)

You imply that people in the city or town do not need guns. 

Well, I know people from the city who go to the country to shoot deer, which they then eat as their meat.  I have sat at a table with a young man who rarely eats anything  at home but meat that is free range (aka wild) as that is the norm.  He works at McDonalds, but can't afford to eat there.  He eats deer, bear, fish, turkey, etc.

So, when you say, that no one in the city needs a gun...I would counter, that is an incorrect statement....as I know people for whom that source of meat is essential. 

Now, if you were to say, no one needs a handgun, I think I would agree. 

I do believe in registration of weapons.

I write the above, knowing that my sister was threatened, along with two coworkers, today....by an employee who said he was going to go get his gun and come back & kill them.

And why shouldn't we also be allowed to keep poisonous snakes as pets. Or even an elephant on out city lawn if we want to?

Certain types of guns should be banned because  their only purpose is killing people.like an assault rifle or submachine gun. I was in a gunshop in Arizona which ws selling a watercooled maxim machine gun (minimum age for buyer - 16, and a 20mm anti tank gun.)

Those sold to hunters should require not only training, but psychological testing. I have been shot at by a hunter who didn't know I was armed. It's not fun.

Target shooting? Forget it. I taught with a man who got anautomatic pistol permit for target practice. He used it to kill  of my friends at Concordia U.

I would be very careful about who gets a gun. Very careful about rules for possession and storage. And I would insist on registration. If I have to buy a licence for a puppy, I see not reason to consider registering a gun as an infringement on rights.

I say all the above as a person who has been a gun enthusiast all  his life - and who has met some very strange people at shooting ranges.

 There is a significant difference between outlawing totally ...with no conditions..and outlawing or controlling by type and individual.

I am in favour of a well thought out policy which recognizes that it won't be perfect, which addresses the needs of rural and city, which provides adequate recertification, and which also controls by type.   I think there would be some things that are really clear, and other parts which aren't...the guns that graham references are pretty clear as to what they are designed for...

I do not have to hunt for food, therefore I do not need a gun.

I am not threatened by wild beast, therefore I do not need a gun.

I do not think I have need to protect my house against invaders, so why do I need a gun.

And if you say you live in a rural arae and need a gun, why?  To go and kill defenseless deer?  To kill that coyote that is going after your sheep?  Guess who was there first.

Why do YOU need a gun???   Of ANY kind?

IT

Russ

 RussP, the individuals that I know rely on deer meat as part of their diet.   It has been a learning for me, as it very different from the people that I have grown upwith, or worked with..but it is a requirement for them.

ps..these defenceless deer destroy gardens, and are regularly the cause of accidents and result in damage to both personal property and individuals.   With hunts in the area that I am htinking of - driving is dangerous after dusk.  without hunts,..it would be worse.

Bear coming through kitchen window.  Did not respond like most bears to usual methods of getting bears out of kitchen window.  Silly dogs refused to ignore bear.  Silly old bear, refused to listen to dogs or reason.

And if silly city people didn't leave their garbage lying about our rural bears would do what rural bears do and not develop urban skills like housebreaking....

LB - its not all peace in the woods

If you go out in the woods today
You're sure of a big surprise.
If you go out in the woods today
You'd better go in disguise.

       Teddy Bear Picnic

In case a bear wanders too close to us.  Replace bear with any of the dangerous wildlife up here.

Also, the imminent threat of american/russian invasion ;)

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

When gun registration first came in I listened to my girl friend from the country tell me about how she had recently shot a big porcupine that was taking up residence under her porch.  She was concerned with it hurting her dog.  She was also concerned for her own safety, especially since she lived alone and could have gotten too close to it when entering or leaving her house in the dim light of early morning or dusk.  So she shot it.  I didn't want to argue but it seemed to me that she could have just as easily have shot it with a registered gun as an unregistered gun. 

Another friend was alone with a young child at a camp in the woods (her husband out hunting with the gun).  A bear stuck its head and shoulders through the camp window.  With her child up in the top bunk, she rushed the bear and sprayed it in the eyes with Raid.  It left.  I think she wished she had a gun handy.   Next time Raid might just make the bear angry.

Yes, I can see why country people might need a gun.

I grew up in the country.  My father had a rifle and shotgun in the house.  A partridge every few days was a nice break from balony - and a deer or two in the fall meant we would have meat for a good part of the winter. 

Mr. Seeler gave up hunting many years ago - his job kept him in the city and weekends just didn't give enough time for a successful hurt most years.  He got rid of his guns - to my relief.

No, I don't believe the average person needs a hand gun in the house, nor do many city people need a hunting rifle.  If they do it should be registered and accounted for.  And the police should be clamping down on gangs armed with illegal guns. 

 Crazyheart, I would argue that the police in the city sometimes need a gun.

respectfully, Pinga. This employee could have had a hand gun or a rifle. I wonder if no gun rule is better than injured or dead sister? The young fellow that hunts would fall under the registered hunting permit. I don't know this but I presume guns and ammunition is expensive - quite a few meals paid for.

It's not about need.

If we are going to simply use "need" to decide who is allowed to own what, a lot of are going to have to get used to living without a great many things.  You don't "need" to own a computer, you don't "need" to own a microwave....

This is the third thread about guns in the last year or so.  Why?  As many murders are committed by stabbing as shooting in Canada.  Where are the threads about knives?  Homicide by firearm is not the leading cause of death in Canada.  Not even in the top 5.  Not even in the top 10.  Doesn't even make the top 15.  Cars are far more dangerous than guns, and city people don't "need" them either.

So what is the real issue?

I think that is naive thinking.  Innocent people will be killed in many different ways and I doubt too many are killed by careless placement of guns.  Lawabiding gun owners store them properly and are very aware of the dangers.

Many people do keep guns for target shooting and it is a good sport.  Skiing and shooting, as you see in the Olympics is a fabulous and very difficult sport.  Hand guns, which are used often at clubs have very strict rules about storing and transporting.

Will they get stolen.  Likely but you aren't advocating for no cars and far more people are killed by cars, stolen or otherwise than guns.

Of course you can have your opinion.  I don't think there are guns everywhere ( although in hunting season you see them more often)  There are certainly gun crimes in the gang community but for the most part innocent people are not involved in those crimes.  Two notable exceptions recently in Toronto was the Yonge Street shooting of a young girl and a few years later, in a very similar area and father of two was shot by a stray bullet.  But those things are so rare and we remember them.

As a country place owner we do have a gun but it isn't for protection from wild animals.  I doubt many other than livestock farmers really have a need to shoot wolves.  WE have done target shooting and used it to scare off gulls mainly.

You should perhaps out of interest take a firearms licencing course.  I was surprised by the course, the content and the exam.

[/quote]

According to Statistics Canada data, November 30, 2010, cancer and heart disease are the leading causes of death for Canadians.

Gun-related deaths don't make it into the top ten.  

Accidents - non-specific - are listed as the 5th leading cause of deaths.

What is the real issue?  Good question.

Perhaps if we lobbied governments for shorter wait times for cancer patients, and stricter rules governing food additives which can be hazardous to our health, we would be making better use of our energy. 

Agreed, or a cross-bow...or an axe.

Crazyheart, you have no idea regarding cost? right?

The guns are handed down from generation...gosh, my Grandfather's deer rifle is still used.

A deer has a lot of meat. 

Those of us in urban areas who buy our meat in grocery stores, far removed from the rural life, especially the northern rural life, really don't get it, and when we make comments such as that..well, we truly don't get it.

#1.  These are not bambi.  they are food.  The only one who should be saying anything about it, is the person who is a vegan.

#2.   Kids are taught gun safety with rifles, just as they are taught car safety with driving and farmers with tractors.  Do accidents happen, yes.  Should they, no.  

#3.  the food is an important part of their survival. 

#4.  the food takes like food.  (as compared to the stuff we buy in grocery stores)

sorry,but, no ....i do not agree with a complete banning on rifles.

Interesting comments, pinga.

I was raised in a hunting family.  My mother's father and brothers hunted deer and moose and sometimes bear, for food, when there was nothing else to eat.

My father was an expert marksman and was very safety conscious with his guns.  He too, hunted a variety of creatures for food to provide for his family - deer, moose, partridge, rabbits...

When our father died, his gun collection was passed on to my eldest brother who hunted until his Parkinson's prevented further such activities.  He was a conscientious hunter.

My two nephews have since inherited most of this collection.  They leave their urban dwellings to travel to northern ON each year to hunt with a gang of cousins and friends.  

My brothers and I were taught gun safety at an early age, but the guns were still kept out of our reach until we grew older.

While I don't eat venison or moose because of a vegetarian diet, I know some family members enjoy this as a food item after their annual hunt, and it does taste better than some grocery store meat from factory farms.

Do I like guns.....NO....but I won't pass judgement on those who use registered firearms for legitimate purposes.

A good movie, that I recently watched was "Winter's Bone" ....closer to reality in some places than one would hope.

When we get this whole thing figured out about minimum wage, and ensuring everyone has access to adequate food, then, yes, we in our comfie urban setting can determine that guns should not be allowed.

until then, i will continue to learn what life is like in other areas, far removed from my norm

I was very fond of target shooting. And it was not my experience that gun owners were all law-abiding and stored their guns properly. As well, I knew a gun club member who got a pistol licence based on his club membership. I understand he did go to target practice a couple of times. Then he shot five of his colleagues at Concordia

I think some people should be allowed to drive guns. But it's not a right. Restrictions on it should be as tight as those for driving a car or a trailer truck or an airplane. And all for the same reason. I know not many people get killed per year in personal airplanes. But I still think it reasonable that any pilot should be required to meet minimal criteris.

If you don't hink it reasonable to licence and set standards for tun ownerfhip , then you must also be in favour of amateurs with no training piloting Boeing jets.

My Dad was a magician. He owned a gun.

I am also a bit leery of people owning guns, no matter the reason (aside from disabled collectors items).

It just seems too easy for someone a little unstable to get really, really upset, load up their rifle and start shooting people.

It is becoming more and more difficult to justify the need for people to be able to hunt their own wild game with a gun when there are just so many other options available.  People switched from hunting to domestication of animals thousands of years ago.  Sure there is no real "sport" in farming, but I personally find killing for "sport" to be deplorable.  If you truly want the "sport" of taking on a wild animal, perhaps a gun is not the best choice.  Why not consider a bow?

I agree that those who live in proximity of dangerous wild animals (wolves, bears, cougars, etc) may need to keep a gun to protect their family (and/or livestock), but again, there are other options.  Wild animals are usually scared off by the loud noise of a gun firing such that a kill shot is not required.  Likewise a wild animal can be scared off by noise alone, such as yelling, banging pots and pans, and air horns.

For those who claim they'd rather have a gun in their hand and live than risk the air horn not being sufficient and dying, I'd counter that you don't need to keep your air horn unloaded  in a locked gun-safe.  If you're a responsible gun owner, you keep you guns unloaded inside a locked gun-safe.  How long does it take to run to the gun-safe, unlock it and load you gun when you've got a bear digging in your garbage cans?

Rural residents also use guns for 'varmint' control.  I have heard of people shooting beavers.   Beaver dams flood roads, basements, crops.  Shooting the animals solves the problem I heard.  I believe other methods to discourage the beavers were tried first.

I have also heard of rural people shooting rabid skunks and raccoons.

I don't have any type of gun myself, I see no reason for individuals to have handguns for anything other than target practise in a controlled area.  At least rifles and shotguns have legitimate uses - like providing food for those who live in the more isolated parts of the country.  

How often are rifles used in crime compared to handguns and knives?

guns- it's a boys toy.

Why would you need a fast car  or an alterrain in the city, where you get stuck in traffic all the time. It's part of the man's psyche that is prehistoric and women can't understand.

How often are guns used for  criminal purposes? A lot more than jet airliners are used to crash into office towers.

graeme, i am fully in support of licensing, and also gun marking.

Derek:  Which is more humane and good for the environment.

1.  Having cattle or pigs or chickens in mega farms,  where the animals are crowded, and well, you have seen the images from slaughterhouess, right? which require mass transportation to get them to you, and the meat is blah at best.

2.  Shooting a deer that has lived it's life to that moment in harmony with nature, and is at a set size to be eaten, then taking it somewhere locally to be prepped. 

Of course, there are many different ways for meat to get to your table; however, this sense that killing a deer is inappropriate, well, I don't get it.

Then there is the whole part of the economy, let me think, I can pay a corporation for my meat , or I can pay a local farmer, or a butcher.  (In the area that I have family in, people barter, someone kills a bear, someone kills some deer, someone has chickens (roasters)  someone else has chickens (layers), or lamb or cattle, and people make less money but, they do have food.  They also fish and eat them...forget about throwing it back..shucks, it is dinner

In my area  small animals like beaver are controlled with traps.  We do not have an overpopulation of racoons and skunks btw because there is no large urban source of food.

Larger animals like deer and bear can only be controlled by gun.  Sad but true.  In our community there is an area that has been "no hunt" all my life, they have an over population that has to be culled every now and then.  The over population is exacerbated by those who think feeding wild animals is good.  It isn't.  Overpopulations lead to diseased and starving populations - that again have to be culled.

Personally I hate guns.  Never held one in my hand.  However, I am also not fond of cars and tractor trailers.  All three, in the hands of the unskilled or angry, are weapons of destruction and no amount of legislation will prevent someone hell bent on destroying.

I believe we have to stop looking at the inanimate instruments and begin looking at the intelligent creature in control.  Why?  Why are some people so convinced that killing another will solve their problems?  What are the warning signs that others should be looking for to prevent that person from arming themselves and walking out the door?

We could ban guns.  We could ban cars.  We could ban all sharp instruments.  Still some people will come up with some way to destroy another person.  What is needed is to cull that desire.

LB

Bullets cannot be recalled. They cannot be uninvented. But they can be taken out of the gun.

     Martin Amis

I am certainly not supporting factory farms, but contrary to your question, which is more humane and good for the environment:

1. Hand raising and breeding your own free-range chickens on your own property, with food, water, shelter and protection that you provide for them in exchange for eating a few.

2. Invading a deer's home territory, and shooting a deer that may be a caregiver to young fawns, and taking for yourself its meat for which you have done nothing to contribute to in return.

There is always more than one point of view.  I am also familiar with culls and animal population control.  You should know that these over-population problems are primarily due to human interference with predator species.  Killing the "dangerous" wolves and coyotes leads to having to kill the "over-populated" deer.

People who like to hunt with guns would have you believe that without the under-appreciated hunters patrolling the wilds, keeping the animals under control, that city-folk would be over-run not just with fierce and deadly wild animals, but also vast over-populations of prey animals.

What is more likely, is that a bunch of gun-toting hunters shooting off their rifles way back in the bush is helping to drive the animals into the suburbs where they're safe from being shot.

As for what is more humane and good for the environment, it would be to abstain from eating meat at all, become a vegetarian, follow the 100 mile diet, and perhaps even grow some of your own food at home.

Well, that would be good to grow, if the deer weren't overrunning the gardens.

umm, I am not writing from a s. ontario viewpoint.  There are no suburbs or urban areas near where I am speaking of... the closest town has a population of 780.  The closest city, 30min away is 4000, and the closest booming metropolis is an hour away and has a population of  just under 62,000

There are no lack of deers. Hunting is part of the life.

In terms of the "handraising" versus "living free", I can tell you, I would rather live free than in a prison....not sure if the chicken feels the same way.

Shift your mind from S. Ontario or other areas of high population, and let's discuss the topic fully.

We could do a thread on factory farms.....

Forest fires in Northern Alberta pushed moose into south-eastern Alberta about a decade or so ago.  The deer population in many rural areas is rapidly increasing --one of the top causes of accidents in Eastern Alberta are collisions with deer and moose.. The moose collisions often include the death of the driver.

Deer shot by skilled, careful hunters suffer less than most of the animals killed in commercial packing plants, often much less.  Most of the deer shot by my father were dead within a very few seconds of being shot, unlike many of the cattle and pigs killed in the packing plants.

However, there are a lot of dangerous, careless hunters who wound game and shoot other hunters, along with shooting up signs, camp shelters and power line insulators.

Our fundamental challenge is finding ways to raise the sense of personal responsibility by people growing up in our society while creating and revising systems to control acess to and use of tools which have the primary purpose of killing things.  Many good points expressed in other posts are directed to this issue.

Good one, Besh. I thought it was a safe, un-motorized equivalent to a guy's pick up truck.

Shopping carts were invented to encourage people to keep shopping and spending money. 

Store managers noticed that when people's baskets got nearly full and heavy on their arm they stopped shopping and went home.    By putting a support system and wheels on an instore basket they could encourage people to stay in the store longer, keep buying, and spending more money.

What does this have to do with gun or pickup trucks?

Both guns and pickup trucks are useful and have their place - but not in people's homes in the city.

Seeler that is an interesting 'history and meaning of shopping carts'.

I think it backfires when the shoppers are like me.  Big carts mean significantly less trips to the store.  Less trips =less impulse buying=less total money spent.  Basically I shop once a month except for replenishing milk and fresh fruit and veg. if needed.