You did fine posting the link on Global Affairs.......

All you had to do was   drag your mouse over the link -  it will turn blue- click  "copy"  on it  and come here and  post it -  right click again and click "paste".

( You can try it here again in a new post or try  it in an email to yourself. Paste it where you would write in the email)

http://www.themarknews.com/articles/cijas-clever-gamesmanship

P.S. I have to switch to plain text editor below to copy/paste the link on here.

I don't get a "paste" indicator when I'm on the Wondercafe page.

Try the above link again.....!!!

Drag your mouse, turn the link blue,

Right click on the link - see drop down file -

Click "copy"....go to a new post ( or to your own email to yourself to save it )

On your new post then.... right click -  see drop down file - click  "paste"....and voila...it should work.

Good luck!

Ah.... so that's how it's done. you have opened a new world to me.And old man's blessing on you.

By now, the actual motion we passed yesterday should be widely publicized.  There were two major changes.  A section 12 identifying violence and hatred against Israel was narrowly added.  I succeeded in having the court add a section 13 identifying violence and hatred by some settlers as the cause of a need for this action by the UCC and other churches in the first place.

Well done.

To add to the well done, google Haaretz for August 19. Haaretz is, for my money, the most honest and courageous newspaper to be found in the English language.

The Israel government is cutting off water too all Palesinians in the Jordan Valley.  There is plenty of water for crops of the Israeli settlers who have moved in and stolen  Palestinian land. But Palestinians who still cling to some land, in poverty, are not permitted access to it. The elderly, the sick, babies are being left to die of thirst. Water containers are being taken and destroyed. Nor is there water for the sheep these people depend on to live.

Just recently, a friend of mine, a Zionist,returned from Jerusalem. She said the levels of racism and violence in Jerusalem are appalling - and have the full support of the Israeli government.

Oh - and the same edition has a nod for the UC.

Our resolution may have little effect. But it would have been to our eternal shame had we not made it.

A good friend of mine who is Jewish and who has had respect for many of the social justice and equality stances of the UCC, including their stance on same sex marriage and the election of our new moderator who is gay, was rather upset the other night about the postion UCC has taken with respect to Israel Palestine and suggested boycott of settlement products.. She is several years my senior and has always been an advocate, one of the strongest I know, for local causes for those who are poor and marginalized. She has spent time in Israel, has friends there. That the church has taken this postion seemed to have struck a chord with her on a personal level, and I found myself not quite knowing what to say to her, feeling like I personally don't know enough and wondering if I even have the right to comment. It was awkward. I'm just speaking personally. I imagine people can expect more awkward relationships from this that they will need to know how to address and discuss with  knowledge, respect and compassion.

The UCC can expect heavy and bitter attack from the Israel lobby - notably from its organs like Canadian Jewish News. However, there are a great many Jews in Canada and the US who do not get paid by Netanyahu, and who do n ot support him. In the US it is Obama and not the bootlicking Romney who gets most Jewish Support.

My understanding, the feeling I was getting from my friend (but we didn't get into it much once it became uncomfortable, we changed the subject) that this wasn't about politics for her per say, but more about some deep feelings/ fears/ hurts it seems to have triggered.  I just wanted to vent that because I can talk about the politics in a limited way, to me it's a political and social justice issue--it's not personal for me because I am not Jewish and haven't been to Israel-- my perspective is an objective one in that it's definately not about trying to single out a religion or ethnicity, just simply the facts about what's happening in the region, as they are now, from what we know is happening...but I can only speak with limited understanding of the facts... when it becomes emotional for another person, and about things past that I cannot begin to understand, I don't know what to say. That's all I wanted to say. That we need to be mindful going forward that this statement is going to bring up more than just politics for people, but feelings also. I have already experienced an example of that.

I'm afraid that's true of most political issues. It's made worse because we usually use emotional words to describe what is happening - words that we usually don't understand in the first place.

Quebec separatists are fond of saying they're defending their culture. And that sounds like a good and honorable thing to do. but, if fact, the PQ did a good deal to destroy traditional Quebec culture.

In any case, you can't preserve a culture. Culture is the sum total of all the ways we react to the world around us. that world is always changing - so we are, too. I can get very sentimental about my ancestry. But the reality is that my culture is very different from that of my ancestors - and their ancestors more different, still.

It is a very painful issue for Jews. Even those who profoundly disagree with the Israeli government feel a personal hurt that this has happened to Judaism. And it's very hard to see any way out.

So they can't agree with Netanyahu; but they also  feel they cannot simply abandon Israel.

Nor should anyone abandon Israel just because they may disagree with what's happning. But I can see that it is a painful issue for some, for many.

Rick Salutin's column in the Toronto Star on the issue:

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/publiceditor/article/1246375--united-church-stands-up-nicely-on-settlements

Western policy has nothing to do with protecting Israel. American domestic policy, for example, has been cutting off lunches  for hungry, American school children. And, as a 100 million americans now depend on welfare, it is looking for ways to cut the welfrare budget so it can reduce taxes to the rich.

The American government doesn't give a damn about its own people. Can you seriously believe it cares about Israelis?

For that matter, Netanyahu is NOT supported by the Israeli people in his lust for war.

Both the west and Netanyahy have just one purpose in mind - to destroy any middle eastern states that pose a threat to western or Israeli power. Israel, with a nuclear arsenal, is in no danger whatever of any sort of attack. Indeed, it has been the prinicipal agressor in the region for decades.

There is no plan for Syrian democracy. The plan is to destroy Syria, replacing it with a group of small and impotent states. Ditto for Lebanon. Ditto for Iraq. Ditto for Iran.

Syria and Lebanon alone have some four and a half million Christians. If the 'rebels' in those countries win, those Christians are in great danger. Many have already been killed.

Notice that the rebel forces have NOT attracted local volunteers in their assault on Allepo? They admit it. Assad may well be a thorough bastard. But the Sytrians like the 'rebels' even less - and it's noticeable that very few Christians have joined them.

Netanyahu is planning aggression that will almost certainly destablizie the whole region -and quite possibly destabilize the whole world. The low end of the death toll will be hundreds of thousands. The high end could be tens and even hundreds of millions.

Netanyahu, who represents a nation with the population of a Toronto, leads us around by the nose. His aggressive policies are condemned by his own military command and by Israeli Intelligence.

Why is it okay, and even desirable, to destroy Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran,Libya, possibly Pakistan, Congo (already destroyed at millions of deaths)- but unthinkable to disappoint Netanyahu?

What is this highly focussed concern we have? I heard few objections when the US bombed, poisoned, and napalmed millions of Vietnamese - with bombing that was greater than for the whole of WW2 in both Europe and the pacific. Nor did I hear any sighs for the close to a million killed in peaceful and defenceless laos and Cambodia, for the million in Iraq - and not a peep about the ten million of so in  Congo since 1950.

How many Palestinians have Israelis killed? Have you ever even heard a figure?

Now, we are stirring up rebellions all over Africa and the middle east - with the purpose of breaking up those countries into powerless, tribal terroritories so that we can exploit them. Nobody seems to know how many have been killed. And nobody seems to care. Who has any idea of the killing (especially of civilians and children), the torture, and the abuse of Central america? Who cared when Haiti's elected government was overthrown by US troops with Canadian troops and police as window dressing - and the old, brutal gang restored to power?

Who knows or cares of the quarter million men, women and children slaughtered in Guatemala?

But, oh, we mustn't disappoint Mr. Netanyahu. 

note: On products from the Israeli settlements in Gaza, Sourth Africa has required that all such products should be identified with a label so customers will know which ones to avoid. I guess that makes south africa anti-semitic. (except that the Palestinians are the ones who are a semitic people.)

It's what paralyzed me for years, Kimmio.  The I/P conflict is an issue so personal and so complex that it's hard to feel like you're able to say anything definitive... especially if you haven't been directly affected by or involved with it. 

My church invited a couple of Overseas Personnel to speak about the development of the Ecumenical Accompaniment Programme (EAPPI) that the World Council of Churches set up about 10 years ago (they had helped with the development).  In their presentation, they shared a simple but informative overview of the region's history, the crux of the conflict, etc.

After the presentation, in speaking with a couple of my friends (including my sister), I heard this opinion repeated more than once:  "You know, I knew there was gross injustice going on over there - it's often in the news - but I just didn't know what to believe or where to start.  So I just didn't try to tackle it."  I felt the same way before I got very involved with the Ecumenical Accompaniers.  Now I at least feel like I see both sides far more clearly. 

I suppose my point is that I completely sympathize with the feeling of not knowing what to say, or feeling too ignorant to have a stance.  My advice is to learn from those with firsthand experience, and to try and paint a picture based on their perspectives and your analysis.  Part of the UCC's passed motion is for the General Council Office to create resources in an attempt to share some of this information.  The truth is, many already exist.  If you're interested, a good place to start is following the blogs of the UCC's EAs who are there - in person - witnessing with their own eyes.  (http://inahotandthinplace.wordpress.com is EA Jim Cairney's blog; he began in June and will be there until September.)

The quote credited to Bruce Gregerson, a United Church  general council officer "Maybe you need to think carefully about where Canadian society is on this." is an excellent statement.  Perhaps the United Church should also think carefully about where the members of the Church actually stand on this proposed Israeli- product boycott.

Yes, like the churches of Germany thought (most of them) before they were so unwise as to pick on Hitler.

another Jewish response

(i wish he had continued with sequels--maybe a Kickstarter campaign inna future?)

JEwish responses to teh final vote include:

http://ijvcanada.org/2012/jewish-human-rights-group-applauds-united-chur...

http://www.cjnews.com/index.php?q=node/93254&fb_source=message

http://www.cjnews.com/index.php?q=node/93114

And those are just 3 that have passed through my FB contacts this week....

Hardly a monolithic response are they?

yes. there are lots of unheard Jews in this country and the US.

Thanks GordW for the info; some very interesting "stuff."

I am not surprised that the CIJA has called for a boycott of the UCC. They have tunnel vision with regard to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and don't like it when someone disagrees with them.

I would be interested in knowing who and how this decision was reached. Was there, for example, any debate among the members or was the decision made unilaterally by the exec? Makes me wonder given a time frame of only about 10 days for such a decision to be made. And how was such a decision reached prior to the annual board of directors meeting Sept 20? I can't help but think (maybe it's wishful thinking on my part) that there are some fair minded individuals at the CIJA who disagree with Netanyahu's agressive settlement policy and would therefore not favor severing ties with the UCC. Are their voices being drowned out or are we in fact facing a monolithic group of people at the CIJA?

Educated people shouldn't carry guns, make guns, sell guns or kill people with guns.

Isreal and the world have an untennable position in the Middle East which makes all law and rule making archaic, obsolete; and at this point in the intellectual history of philosophy, simply absurdist.

I mean especially in relation to the Hebrew tradition. Here we have a group of people who intellectuallized themselves into existence ( a group of nomads calling themselves a "Nation") seemingly to dive headfirst into the anti-intellectual level of survival - war.

dadaist dahling

I can assure you the decision was not made easily or by the exec. It was made after some tough discussions. Some would argue that the discussions were not long enough. What would be long enough anyway? The proposal was modified and wordsmithed. There were strong arguments for each side. In the end, the folks at GC41 voted to pass the proposal which included a "boycott" of the products from the settlements. 

I noted that any time Israel is criticized in any manner, cries of anti-semitism start, and the discussion is shut down. When that happens, I think the UCC has made a good decision. The settlements are illegal and people are being oppressed. There should be discussion, not silence on this issue. 

I think the decision by exec comment was aimd at teh CIJA statement

Oops......long day? (I was to GP and back...)

I'm only sorry it didn't have a statement  accusing CIJA of being what it is - an agent of a foreign power.

Northwind,

You said,

"I noted that any time Israel is criticized in any manner, cries of anti-semitism start, and the discussion is shut down."

For clarity, I am not a fan of radical Jewish organizations any more than I am radical Christian organizations or radical LGBTQ organizations.... it has more to do with radical than anything else.

That said-

Would we understand cries of homophobia if the person speaking to me called me a q word?  Would we understand me shutting conversation down if I believed they were homophobic?

Would we understand cries of rasism if the person speaking to Barack Obama used the n word? Would we understand him shutting down conversation if he believed them to be racists?

We sometimes may not understand the other person, but we can strive to understand our own past.

It is warm and fuzzy to say Jesus was a Jew and that Christianity started as a sect out of Judaism. It does not speak much on the fact that the Christian church has been responsible for more atrocities against the Jewish people than all comers.

The Jews were called Christ-killers. The Jews were accused of stealing communion wafers and nailing them to kill Jesus anew. The Jews were accused of drainign the blood out of Christian babies. The Jews were arrested, convicted, executed, murdered by mobs of people working into a frenzy. The Jews were accused of all kinds of things. Martin Luther wrote a book called On the Jews and Their Lies. For eons, our Bibles said "the Jews" instead of "the Romans" or "some Jews". Think of hearing "His blood be on us and on our chiuldren", meaning "the Jews".

Can we understand how "the Jews" can be heard?

We made it a dirty word, an insult, a weapon....

If we cannot, will not, understand the way it can be heard then we cannot be too upset about communication shutting down... it never actually started.

We need an understanding of religions we may or may not have....the Orthodox Israeli-Jews claim that the separation between state and religion will contribute to the end of Israel's Jewish identity.

So, we cannot look with our form of government or beliefs. They believe separating Jews from Israel or Israel from the Jews, is not done, cannot be done.

It is why they have freedom of religion, but define themselves as  "Jewish state". It is why they give equal civil rights as it relates to religion and can have something like The Law of Return. (It gives Jews preferential treatment and they do not deny that)

People saying, "we mean Israel" does not make sense, does not compute, fit with their understanding, is inseperable, is not a step they are willing to take.

I am afraid there is little equality in the law in Israel and less so in terms of the occupied territories -- more like Canada when we denied people of Aboriginal or Chinese ancestry the right to vote along with many other restrictions on what they could and could not do.  Israel is marginally more like a democracy than China where members of the Communist Party choose the government.

Jim Kenney,

On much, we will not disagree. I have never been a Zionist and neither were my grandparents. My grandfather was a loud detractor of the nation of Israel, mainly because he felt it was unsafe and would result in what we see. He saw fear as a motivator in many atrocities, including the ones he survived.

I however acknowledge that WE the world over created the mess. Those with power, influence... Those who did not want a Jewish influx... Those who partitioned up land and drew maps... Those who said, "to the winner goes the spoils", until well, you win....

I see modern day ghettos and it is hard to imagine those it was done to doing it to another. Yet, is that not the way?

I certainly do not see people treated as equals, but I don't in many places (including those that call themselves democracy). We still do not have a balance between peoples in this nation.

I am simply not sure that our role, as a church, is saying that democracy is the way to be. We have made too many mistakes thinking we knew best for other people.

We should never act out of ignorance.

Many have no idea what a settlement is, what the Law of Return is, who divided the land, who are the Palestinians.....

I do not think calling the ignorant (not an insult) to take action does not result in much more than them not buying any settlement cosmetics (the rest are things they likely do not buy and have never heard of).

The informed try to change things, become the peace makers, volunteer, lobby....

I simply am not sure that this accomplishes anything other than taking it off the table for a few years....Then we will be creating another commitee and doing more research and then revisiting it.

There are large numbers of Jews who do not agree with what you say.  And they are not ignorant of the points you raise.

Nor can we afford to sit back for a few years. I'm afraid things are breaking too quickly for that.

graeme,

There are Jews all over who disagree about all kinds of things.

I think you are making me a Zionist or something else I am not and I have been fairly clear IMO that I am not.

I definitely align more with Jews Against the Occupation, Independent Jewish Voices, Not in Our Name.... I am actually a member of some organizations that make that clear.

Maybe you do so because you know my background and you think if I do not support A then I must be B.

Maybe you do so because I am more pragmatic about what this statement on boycott accomplishes. (I say statement because there is no boycott from GC, there is merely a statement endorsing it or encouraging it).

Maybe it is because I do not see the sense in saying "don't buy" what folks don't buy anyways. I do not know a bunch of UCCers eating kosher imported foods.

I do not know why you think what you do or why you have my position wrong in your own mind.

For clarity, I meant there are many UCCers who do not know those things. Thus,  they act out of following the leader or do not act thinking WTF and not out of much else.

I, personally, think we have run this race with other issues, important social justice issues, even, discerning and deciding at GC before educating people on what was being decided and why.

The fall out is still something we live with. So is the division.... I do not want to say the same 24 years from now on ANY issue.

I will always advocate transparency and education.

I understand  your position quite well. You don't want the church to have one.

I quite recognize the lack of monetary impact of this decision. But there really are things you have to say no to - whether your know has spectacular effect or not.

Israel has been pemitted to get away with unspeakable acts, and acts that pose enormous dangers for all of us.

"educating people" sounds warm and fuzzy. But i have seen very few churches that do that.

We live in one hell of a brutal, callous and greedy world. Either we attempt some response to it - or we just sit like the three monkeys.

SG said   "For clarity, I am not a fan of radical Jewish organizations any more than I am radical Christian organizations or radical LGBTQ organizations....

 I was quite happy with the  Jewish Lesbians for the Demiliatrization of Isreal flying their banner in the 1993 T.O. Gay Pride Parade. 

For me it is an intuitive logical motive and expression, that I only get to feel comfort with in a city the size of Toronto, yet I seldom even visity such places (thus, live my life in continual fear, angst and feeling I will be caught out in my next "extreme" personalilty trait - which is never extreme, only educated and socialist {which may seem parallel to Jewish} and bigtown urban - that has to do with generational history and not with my nuclear nurture) yet for many others in other parts of the country whose logic can only be fantasy and not realized, because of the conservatism that results out of a lack of statisticalization of intellectual population and property.  Though the existence of such groups seem pure fantasy, I have found that in my story-telling of their existence an appreciation for the evolution of human logic and the radicalization of democratic socialism.

Why dismiss radical organizations out of hand? Democracy was a radical idea. So was medicare - still is in the U.S. Public education was radical.  Lutherans and Presbyterians were radicals. As were methodists and Congregationalists. The ideas of Jesus were radical enough to get him executed.

SG you make some very fine nuanced arguements... if only we could get away from rhetoric, to do with them.   The problem i had with the report and the actions was the lack of empirical evidence and the mindreading.  Of course we should continue to push Israel toward peace, and out of the settlements, but it we also need the others to recognize the right of Israel to exist.  We should do all we can to continue the movement toward peace but is this a solution? 

I think it is more of a conversation starter, and attention getter, than a definitive solution to anything. It was a statement saying "we disagree with the settlement expansion", wasn't it? But disagreeing with it and not standing by the statement somehow, with some action (even though I don't think the settlement product boycott action itself will be as impactful as the conversation) might just be empty words.

However, I agree that people need to understand the nuances as much as possible before jumping to conclusions about what to do. I would hope that's been done, but it seems many don't feel it has. At what point can people say they understand well enough to make that call?

For me, I look at the tensions and conflicts in that part of the world, the Middle East in general, that affect so much around the world--and the settlement issue is a long drawn out issue that is a point of contention, and creates a lot of pain (needlessly, on both sides), in that part of the world--but that most people here don't give much thought to--but as long as it prolongs (or is perceived to prolong) violent conflict, it deserves our attenition. What happens in the middle east impacts the whole world--I can't see one side or the other completely right or completely wrong, but I can see that change needs to happen, compromises need to be made to restore peace-- so I  think, "Something needs to happen soon, we've been blissfully ignorant in our comfort zone here for a long time, we live on the same planet, and war and contunued militarization is not the answer."  So, I think the UCC response was a statement  of concern and a non-violent action. I don't think it's ultimate solution, just a gesture that gets people thinking and talking (and arguing too unfortunately), and hopefuly eventually making positive change. That's all anyone wants, is an end to violence and oppression.

Well stated and nuanced.  This does not mean I think our actions make sense ethically, but understandable - we want to do something.  Many will support the idea but see the boycott as not efficacious.  The products we are encouraged not to by are limited, and it is only encouraged.  This makes it easier to support the action or the report.

It was a start. How many people, UCC or otherwise, those of us going about our daily lives with blinders on, have been at least slightly shaken out of their indifferent slumber since it got into the news? Perhaps all it is is an opportunity for everyone, not just the voting parties, to honestly look at all the nuances, some even for the first time (and many might find their opinions change as they learn), discuss, and progress towards solutions?

I don't see any one thing/ one solution, and definately not war and militarization, that people can do that will solve everything immediately. Unless all of a sudden, miraculously, everyone woke up and agreed to put down their weapons and cooperate. That would be nice. Something to work on.

Actually, the product that is probably the most used and purchased is the soda fountain one under several names (Soda water + syrup = pop/soft drink).

I don't understand the comments about ignorance.  The United Church has been invvolved for decades; we have a series of people living on the ground in affected communities for months and years; we recognize the complex dynamics involved.  We cannot force the people in the surrounding nations to agree to accept the continued existence of Israel, though we can encourage them to do so.  We cannot force the extremists in Israel to quit promoting hating and violence against the people in areas desired by settlers.  We cannot force the Israeli government to move their wall or reduce their level of violence.  We can decide we will not contribute to the financial profitability of the settlements.  To do nothing is to deny our own humanity or power to make a difference.

Whatever action we take is taken with the awareness there are many other acts of violence and oppression happening in the world.  If I see a person being beaten by some thugs on the street in front of me, for me to claim that similar acts are happening all over the world, so I should do nothing would be a farcical claim.  We did not got looking for a cause for engagement.  Our partners came to us.

I have only been going to UCC for just over a year. Was it something that individual members were well aware of, was it discussed in depth in congregations? I ask because I think it took some in the public by surprise. I am not saying that's wrong, just is.  People pick their causes and may not be aware of all of the issues or things their church is involved in always.  Iwas months before, but maybe some people weren't.  It gets in the news, and people say,"Oh, good." or "Oh, not good." It's a new conversation. There were many things, I am still finding out about things the church supports or has done in the past as I am there. I get the sense from other UCCers out there that often the concerns are more local, congregational, and that this is an opportunity to look at the issue more deeply now that they are more aware. That's not  bad thing per say. That's not UCC' fault, but maybe just means that different people in different congregations spend their time in different ways and have different priorities, therefore weren't aware but now they are. That's all I was saying. If someone is focused on a community ministry, maybe they're not paying attention to things beyond that as much.

I'm surprised we are faulted for not making a big noise about the right of israel to exist. I must have missed all those church meetings in which people were screaming for the destruction of Israel. Yes, a nation that has only some 250 nuclear weapons to defend itself against nations that have none must be defended.

Look, let's get real. Israel, roughtly the size of greater Toronto get more aid, mostly weaponry, from the US and other western powers than any other  county in the world.  Countries with tens of millions starving to death get damn little food from us - and they also get attacked by drones that kill innocent and guilty alike.

Israel has not only consistenly opposed any freedom for the Palestinians; it has killed on a mass scale. Palestinian-Israelis are murdered and their lands taken as a routine matter - and the police and the IDF look on. . Those still in Israel have been threatened with mass deportation, are constantly harrassed by isralis including police and the IDF - not at all unlike the Pogroms that Jews historically have suffered.

Israel has made life as poor and and difficult as possible for those who live in Palestine. It has thwarted every move for a  peaceful settlement. Palestinians are forbidden to walk on the streets in many districts. They are routinely jailed and tortured in very large numbers.

Israel has become as racist as the Germany its people fled. And we are worrying about the opinion of what is really an Israeli funded lobby group.

Yes, the holocaust was terrible. But the Palestinians didn't do it. And few of those who now persecute the Palestinians suffered it, anyway. (Did I ever tell you what the Vikings did to my Scottish ancestors? Can I kill a Swede?)

The holocaust was made possible by us - byt our political, economic and soclial leaders who, to a far greater degree than we are told, applauded Hitler. It was also made possible by our common bigotry and distate for Jews. What the hell are we doing punishing Palestinians for it? What are we doing worrying about the people who have never suffered, but who enjoy inflicting suffering on others?

We also created israel, interfering in an area that was not ours to give away, and planting Israel there for our own purposes.  We then welcomed the new state, led by the terrorists who had been killing British and Palestinians for at least a generation.

I should love to know more about the "education programmes" we offer. They must be gems of self-righteousness. - talk about being "ineffective".

"A nation is a group of people united by a common mistake regarding its origin and a collective hostility towards its neighbours."

-- Professor Shlomo Sand

Here's an interesting book, for those who like sussing out stuff like what is a people?  what is a nation? and all that BS (belief system) stuff :3

Kimmio, this resolution came out of a resolution that came to the floor of the 40th General Council, held 3 years ago in Kelowna, regarding Israel & Palestion. This document describes the outcome of that, which, in turn, resulted in the resolution in the more recent 41st General Council. These have not been discussions or decisions made in haste or without significant investigation. 

It may not be the right thing to do but, for many, staying silent was not the right thing to do either.

I know they weren't made in haste. I think that some people weren't paying attention because maybe more local issues took priority in their congregations, or just as individuals.

you will always find that most people pay no attention to things that are important. If you wait for most people to get involved, nothing will ever happen.

Again, what is lost here in this ( and many related threads), is the history, and it is not the history that graeme re-presents.

Nor are we, in general, receiving accurate information about what is happening in Israel.  Media reports can be biased editorially and also by threat.

I encourage everyone to to reflect, very seriously, about action and consequence.  Because in a number of topics there has been a graeme - frenzy that blurrs and obfuscates the situation in Israel.  And once again, I stress that the citizens who self decare as "Palestinian" still hold all rights as Israeli citizens, and use them.  So, what is really going on?  These are questions we have to ask if we are going to stick our noses into the business of others.

And yes, I am completely guilty of mud-slinginging so as not to de-rail with the the counter-argument of informal fallacy.  I thought it should be called out, and so I took the risk.  Please do not de-rail for my one offensive comment

That's not really true redhead. My understanding, which  is not perfect, is that there are Arabs  living in Israel  proper, some of whom identify as being Palestinian nationality but can vote as Israeli citizens, but the Palestinians living in Palestine are not Israeli citizens, they have (correction) permanent resident status with in Israel, cannot vote in Israeli  Parliamentary elections and they have curfews and restrictions for crossing into Israel. This is not true of Israeli settlers living (illegally according to UN determinants) in the Palestinian territories. They can vote in Israel's Parliamentary elections and as far as I know have no curfews.

I edited this because I don't know enough about the current rules there pertaining to movemnt restrictions for Palestinians, but maybe someone knows more about it and if curfews are being enforced nowdays.

redhead - again, there are things in history - and in the present - which you obviously have NOT read.

Palestinians who are israeli citizens can be evicted from there homes at any time if the Jewish residents decide so. It has happened many times. Whole districts have been cleared of them. There are many residential districts in which they are not permitted even on the streets.

Those who own farms or live in villages are routinely attacked by Jewish "settlers", and either killed or forced off their land. The Israeil government also routinely confiscates their land.

I suggest you do some reading before you accuse others of ignorance or lying.