Thanks for the background for an e-mail I deleted.  Muslims are expected to pray at set times, and it is appropriate to make it possible for them to do so.  I wonder what kind of place will be provided for them to do this?  Maybe, upon request, space could be set aside for Christian students to pray as well, though I would not expect very many requests.

As a public school teacher, I can speak to some of the issues about this.

Public schools are not to promote one religion as right and others wrong. They are not to favour one over another. When I went to school in the 70's and 80's,  someone read the Lord's Prayer over the PA system. All students were expected to stand and observe the prayer. That stopped in the 1990's, because there was recognition that this was a Christian prayer, and not every student (or achool employee, for that matter) was Christian.

Students can form their own prayer groups and pray before school, after school, and at lunchtime. (In other words, on their own time.) Staff members may also get involved and lead prayer groups as a voluntary extra-curricular thing. (Just as a teacher may wish to lead an after-school drama club or a lunchtime fitness group.)

Parents have the right to take children out of school for religious reasons. So if a family observes an Easter week prayer vigil, those parents can take their child out of school to in order to participate in the vigil. The same with any other religion: parents may take children out of school for Muslim holy days, Jewish holy days, etc.

The issue got media attention when the Toronto District School Board (TDSB) broke those rules to allow Muslim students to be excused from classes to go and pray on school property (the cafeteria). So a religious group was allowed to use school property and class time for their religious observance, and no other religion was allowed to do it. It was a case of TDSB showing favouratism towards one religion. It was a case of TDSB giving privileges to one religion and not others. So, quite understandably, other religious groups were upset.

So I'm in favour of upholding the rules:

1. People of all religions are welcome in public schools.

2. People of all religions are welcome to practise their religion at school as long as it's not during class time, and as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone's else's right to practise their religion.

3. School staff members may participate in religious activities at school on their own time (not class time or job time,) on a voluntary basis, as is the case for any extra-curricular activity.

4. If the student needs to attend a religious activity during class time (eg. a temple service at 10:00 a.m.) then the parents are expected to remove the child from school to attend that service.

The main exception seems to be memorial services held at school. At my school, we've had a student death every year from tragic car crashes. We hold a memorial service at school especially for students and staff. (Not the offical funeral.)

In each case, the family was invited, and if the family was religious, their religious leader came to the service also and lead prayers. But no one seemed to mind. There was an understanding that this was a tragic death, and the right thing to do was be respectful, whether the religious leader was of your own religion or not. In my own experience, teens are far more tolerant of religious differences than most politicians.

My wife worked at a 24/7 call centre, if the employee was Muslim, they had to be able to do Salat (five time daily prayers- sunrise, midday, late afternoon, just after sunset, between sunset and midnight)

If an employee was Jewish, they had to be able to pray three times -morning ( shacharit), afternoon (mincha) and evening (maariv).

If a tenet of the religion is to not only pray during the day, but at a precise period of time in the day, then that should be accomodated.

All should be free to pray.

None should be forced to pray.

Schools force children to listen to the national anthem. Flags are placed in each classroom. All of them have to accept this (and I've never seen the slightest value in any of it.)

I'm sympathetic to special prayer times for various religious groups. After all, it's not as if our society were overflowing with religious people.

Actually, they aren't in most (all?) public schools.  There were students at schools I attended where it was against their religion to sing (and listen to?) the national anthem.  They were excused from all assemblies where it was sang.  In band, it was brought up before we started to learn it, so that if someone was opposed they could mention it to the teacher and then it wouldn't be learned, practices and performed.

The daily national anthem is something that was in the Ontario Education Act. (And still is.) There are lots of principals who are no longer playing the anthem daily in their schools.  They rarely get challenged by parents on that, because there are always so many more important issues to deal with: bullying, drugs, special ed., etc.

Students who have religious beliefs against observing a national anthem (like Jehovah's Witnesses) are encouraged to step out of the room while the anthem is playing. (Or if they are in an arena or stadium, to step into the washroom while the anthem is playing.)

Nationalism aside, most teachers will tell you that the great thing about the daily playing of the anthem is that it settles the class down right away. It's also a good for teaching kids to stand quietly at attention (a great skill for primary kids.)

The whole "prayer in schools" fallacy, in it's many ridiculous forms, is nothing more than a ploy of the religious right to pretend that they're being persecuted.

I agree completely that it's a great way to get the class settled down.  In my experience with Jehovah's Witnesses, they usually either stand in the hallway or remain seated during O Canada.

When I was in elementary school, some parties saw myself and the JW kids taken to the hallway. 

The other kids were having goodies and drinks and we sat in the hall. It seemed that almost every time goodies came out, we were in the hall. There was no Jewish holiday marked where we got goodies. They did not have a Thursday party that could include JW kids.

Kids can be mean.

They look for a reason to bully. If you are fat, skinny, have straight hair, curly hair, wear glasses, have braces, stutter, walk with a limp.... or sit in the hall.

After the party ended, I recall hearing taunts about being in the hall during one of their Easter parties. They said I was not JW but a Jew, then it started. They started saying I killed Jesus. They got me trapped under the... hey what is the proper name for the thing... the geometric looking thing you climbed and hung from, a half circle out of the ground?   So, there I was trapped and the kids on the bottom kept me stuck while the kids on the top kicked me in the head and shoulders.

I understand why the law has said that having kids leave draws attention to them and marginalizes them by having to ask to leave, many do not.

Any activity which requires some students to segregate themselves is a recipe for prejudice and bullying, not to mention the damage to the child who finds themselves singled out and separated from society.

Besides which rote patriotism is meaningless at best.

By jr. high it should be a non-issue.  If someone needs to be excused from class to pray, all they need is a note.  There are places like study hall, the library, etc to pray.

For elementary I see it being more of an issue, simply because at that age it's expected kids are supervised at all times.  That would be up to the parents to sort out though.  If they want to pull their child out of the school at certain times, they have that right.

As for the national athem, SG I appreciate your post.  I see a huge difference between an assembly and the classroom though.  There were always stragglers getting into the assembly, I don't think students would be majorly singled out for either not attending or showing up late.  The only classes where we ever sang it were at the protestant school I attended for less than 2 years, and band class (where I think it was handled well).  Do you think we should not teach it at all in schools?

Kids will always need certain allowances.  I couldn't always go outside due to asthma/allergies, I couldn't always participate in gym, I couldn't sit on the carpet and would sit at the back on a chair when it was time to gather on the floor in front of the teacher.  Should children not play outside at lunch and recess, have gym class, or ever sit on the carpet because I couldn't?

What's a Muslim and is there some kind of Muslim-detection Device? :3

http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/local/article/144877--groups-protest-muslim-prayers-at-toronto-public-school

This is the article that went with the email.  According to this article the school did not run or pay for the service but merely provided space.  In my experience any faith based group could have similiar requests granted.  We had Christian religious education people come into our schools as a lunch time activity that students were to have signed permission to attend.  There were always many more students who went in the winter time than on beautiful spring and fall days.

I agree completely that it is not the public schools' place to teach children a particular religion.  That is the prerogative and responsibility of the parents.

Similarly I don't think public funds should be used to support a faith based  school system but that's another topic! 

The article is from last year (copied and pasted from the article):

07/25/2011 

In the Toronto case, during the Friday Muslim prayers (In the cafeteria during class time) the girls are required to sit behind the boys, behind a partition. The menstruating girls are required to sit at the very back behind everyone and do not pray because they are considered unclean.

chemgal,

You and I will agree to disagree.

You see it as the same as sitting out for medical reasons.  I, however, do not.

For me, I tend to ask myself....Would we condone or simply allow saying, "you can just leave" if what was said is "the white kids..." or "the black kids" are now going to do something?

__________________________________________

Mely,
 

You and I tend to often disagree.

I see that ir or when one gathered "the Christians" for prayers, they would be diverse from conservative to liberal. The Lord's Prayer could even be a sticking point as it is recited differently. They likely should not dance to avoid offending the Baptists in the group.

I see that when one has Muslim prayers, those who gather will be conservative to liberal.

The same as if one gathered the Jews.

Religions are diverse.

Some separate the sexes as part of the tenets of their faith. It is often a subset of the larger set. They are though part of the larger set.

You see a one way view and I see many ways to look at it.

You see a religious tenet of separating the sexes as inherently about sexism, that women are less than men, and about nothing else.

 I do not.

http://judaism.about.com/cs/worship/f/mechitza.htm

You can also tend to make a big deal out of most things Muslim.

Well it must be the conservative Muslims who organize the prayers at Valley Park.  See picture.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/1042407--siddiqui-a-prayer-for-tolerance

Why am I not surprised that, in your blind and completely un-Christlike hatred for Muslims, that you would completely miss the point of that opionion piece?

The Principle provided a place for the students to pray, the same as he would have for Christian students had they asked, or for a student book club, for that matter.

Why do you hate Jesus, Mely?

How long and hard do you have to work to hate Jesus so much?

Mely,

If I went into a prayer circle at the flagpole with fellow Christians at a given school, I might be the only one who wanted to recite the Lord's Prayer ending with the doxology ( "the kingdom, the power and the glory....)
I might be the only one who uses "trespasses" instead of debts.

It depends on the Christians in the area.

Schools are not to judge the beliefs of a religion, but they are compelled by law to accommodate a students’ religious needs (whether it is a Jewish student’s need to stay home to observe high holidays, a Jehovah’s Witness’s objection to standing for the national anthem, or a Muslim student’s need to pray during a school day)

You, on the other hand, are judging.

Mely, women are dommonly segregated the in the mainstream synagogues - and far more so in the orhodox ones. There are great similarities between Judaism and Islam.

Here in NB, an elementary school principal who stopped playing O Canada caused a provincial uproar, emergency meetings of the cabinet, personal threats and, in the end, had to leave his job and the province.

SG, I just feel that O Canada is something that should be taught in public schools.  Many parents are unable to teach it easily, due to language barriers.  Is it something that you think should be taken out?

Mely, I have not been checking out many of your links due to lack of time.  After seeing your interpretation of the Star article, I suspect there is little point to checking your links.  Did you miss the part how this has been going on for years and only became an issue because of a group of Hindus who have an extreme hatred for Muslims?  From the picture it is hard to see if there is any boy/girl separation happening -- some of the children in the second row could have easily been female, and we don't have any clear view of the first row of students. 

I realize you feel very threatened by changes that are happening in Canada and in the world, and that you almost certainly have received some of the e-mails we have received from friends who are wonderful people except for their deep dislike for Moslems and some ethnic groups. I happen to believe in the enduring power associated with Jesus, so I do not worry about external threats to Christianity.  I am far more concerned about internal threats (complacency, fear leading to abandonment of principles set by Jesus, busy-ness, reluctance to make profound servanthood a mark of leadership, despair, and secular materialism).

it's worthwhile to look at Canadian writing of 1900 to the 1920s. You find writing by quite Christian, intelligent people that spews hatred and suspicion of Jews, Slavs, italians, the newcomers of those days. We're getting a repeat today.

I agree that the national anthem is played every morning. But a Canadian flag "in every classroom"? I don't ever remember seeing a Canadian flag in any of my classrooms when I was a child or a teenager, and I know there's never been a Canadian flag in any of my daughter's classrooms.

I taught in near ancient times, the 1960s. there was always a flag, the singing of O Canada, and a Protestant hymn. (Schools in Montreal were divided by religion.)

Are you living in a heathen province?

There were Jewish kids in the classes i taught. I remember the boy in grade seven who spoke to me after the hyman. "Dis Jesus - he was an okay guy, eh?" 

Curiously, a good half of the women teachers in montral Protestant schools were Jewish. I don't know how they handled the prayer and hymn.

We live in Canada.  Why should the children not sing O Canada?  Why should there not be a Canadian flag in every classroom?  The children are supposed to learn about the country in which they live.  Neither the flag nor the singing of O Canada is inappropriate in a public school. 

I don't sing the national anthem becuase there a portion of it is a prayer to the Christian God, so I can understand why some people would say lets not do it in public schools. Flags shouldn't be a problem, but then what would be the point? At some point if you force something on a kid they just tune it out anyways. Forced patriotism is meaning less. Not saying a flag in a classroom is forced patriotism in itself, but...

Quite so. In years of teaching, I have never known the singing of O Canada or the  pointing to the flag as breeding any patriotism at all.

Tell you what - anybody who things that singing O Canada and saluting the flag every morning will produce patriots should insist that this be done at his or her place of employment. Then we'll see how it works.