Wow, this is a good topic. I know I will have to think on it. I may need to look up that book too.

My grandmother was Irish Protestant. She was raised in Dublin and experienced the Easter Uprising in 1916. I know this profoundly affected her and her siblings and parents. They moved to Canada in the early 1920's . She had some very powerful beliefs that were a mixture of learning or trauma, and some that seemed to be right in the core of her being. The core stuff I think came from generations of the Irish struggle. This made me very interested in this issue.

I currently do some work for a First Nations' community in this area. It is a community which is marked by division and hatred. There are two main families, and it is a mixture of Beaver (Dene Zaa) and Cree. People in the community will cite recent events as a cause of their hatred. Never-the-less, this hatred goes back generations. I believe it is rather like the Irish. Something happened before anyone living now was alive, and they have been taught to hate. The community is in turmoil right now because of decisions the leadership are making today and because of past issues.

Colonialism comes into play in both of my scenarios. I also suspect a version of colonialism is a factor in the Middle East, but I do not know enough about that to be sure. I do think power and control are big factors. This would be the power to rule and determine the direction of the community, nation, whatever. It would also be power to control the resources which are perceived as limted. Greed plays a part. Oppression is a factor, in that there are oppressors and the oppressed. The oppressor becomes the oppressed. The oppressed become the oppressor.

Because of the turmoil in the FN community, I have been thinking a lot about this lately. I wonder how people can move beyond conflict to peace. I wonder if it is even possible. A certain amount of healing must happen. I think that does mean comprimise on both sides. I think it means forgiveness on both sides, also forgiveness of self and other. Beyond that, I think it will happen in small steps. Ireland seems to have moved forward in many ways. What did they do? I think both sides had to lay down their weapons and figure out how to trust the other. It certainly was not easy.

I will be interested to see what others say on this.

What are my thoughts?

In 1939, Hitler signed a peace treaty and then a month after signing, started WW2. 

graeme mentioned on the "am I ready to be converted" thread, that a treaty of sorts was made with Russia to destroy nuclear stockpiles.  Russia went through the proceess only to discover that Bush changed the rules to allow the US to store some of its stockpiles rather than destroy them. 

How can we trust treaties, or the people who make them?

Theodore Roosevelt  said " I should welcome almost any war, for I think this country needs one..."  and the american people LOVED him.  He is one of the 4 presidents on Mount Rushmore. 

Peace cannot be brought by force nor is peace the result of war.

The statement " to have peace, we must first prepare for war " is a paradox, but sadley is one we seem to uphold and live by. 

War always profits.  The organizations that make weapons of war, sell weapons (or parts for weapons) to both sides and profit from both sides.  This inturn would make the war last longer...equals out the playing feild more, and in turn, war lasts longer, making it even more profitable for those organizations while "the people" of the nations suffer and die.  The most profitable war is one that drags out as long as possible. 

There was a time when citizens were drafted into war.  Prison or fight in war.  What appealing options, it didn't matter what their stand was on the war, let alone violence in general, fight to kill in the war or prision.  What freedom. 

There are no winners in war, just predators and prey. 

With that said, I admire and respect you for wanting to be a part of the solution. 

What needs to happen before peace can happen?

As long as greed exists, REAL peace cannot exist for everyone within a nation and between nations.  And in order to have peace, everyone must be equally treated and respected.  No classes of rich and poor and working class, every single human is given equal oppurtunities in education and lifestyle. 

What prerequisites need to be in place before the long process of peacemaking can begin?

Everyone needs to see each other as human beings, brothers and sisters.  How can this process begin?  Not with war. 

How does the peace process need to change?

The process of war needs to change.  The process of peace will then reveal itself. 

How important are citizen-run community-building peacemaking programs versus political agreements?

The ones run by citizens and communites are probably more genuine because they don't have as many hidden agendas as the political peacemaking programs.  (money. power).

Thanks for posting this thread.  I look forward to reading other peoples opinions as they understand war and peace. 

Best wishes to you on your journey.  I hope that your efforts have a lasting impact. 

Thanks,

Bishop B.

I also just wanted to mention that I personally know people that are against world peace.  The reason (ludicrous reason, in my opinion) being that they see it as a threat.  The first steps of the coming "anti-christ" and the "end times" based on biblical prophecies. 

What should have happened back in 1948 is that the UN,in creating Israel, should have guaranteed fair treatment for Palestinians and safety for Israelis. It didn't to either.  Instead, it simply allowed the abuse of Palestinians, and forced Israel to look to itself for defence.  Thus the situtation we have today.

The solution hasn't much changed. So long as Israel depends on its own military power, depend on it to be abusive. So long as Palestinians are abused, depend on the hatred to continue.

The solution is that major powers  have to commit themselves to peace. They never have. They have to commit themselves to Israeli security. They never have. The US has committed itself to making Israel a substantial military power to defend itself - but that has only created greater fears on both sides, and more bloodshed.

This is a situation in which the people involved have no power to bring about peace. That power lies in the hands of major powers, notably the US (but with a nod to Britain and France), who created the problem in the first place.

graeme

The process of peace needs to begin with a mindset.  One of cooperation and mutual respect.  Both parties need to understand and accept that they will need to give in on some issues in order to gain on others, and to be committed to the full resolution of the base issues causing the tension.

I say base issues, because they are the birthing arena for all the others that spring from them.  For instance, the Muslim world purports to believe that Israel has no right to exist and that they should be destroyed and disbanded.  Israel, obviously, feels rather different on that particular topic.  That is the base issue, and from it springs the violence against Israel and their interests.

It is unlikely that Arab nations are going to change that train of thought, but if they can be convinced not to act upon it, then it becomes a non-issue.  It's ok if your neighbor dislikes or even hates you, just so long as no action is taken along those lines that would cause you harm. 

For two nations to reach a peace agreement, they need the mindset that peace is preferable to war, and that they can each trust the other to uphold their end of the agreement.  Therein lies the rub, trust.  If the two sides can reach a state of trust, then peace can happen, if they cannot reach that state, peace will never be.  There will always be the underlying tension with war just over the horizon.

You mentioned that the people involved in war should not be leading the peace process, I think that is only partially true.  No sane warrior who has ever seen a battlefield yearns to see another.  Often they are the people who strive the hardest to bring an end to the violence because they are the ones on the sharp end if conflict comes. 

Perhaps they should not necessarily lead the process, but they do need to be a part of it.  People who have never been invovled in war seldom have any realistic understanding of how awful it can truly be.  They have not necessarily paid the price of battle and may well hold their ideals closer than reality.

The involvement of citizens willing to stop the fighting is crucial to the resolution of conflict.  No leader who wishes to remain so can ignore a public bent on violence.  Similarly, no leader will retain his office if the people are truly after peace and he keeps getting in the way.

The reasons for war are varied, reaching from simple larceny to idealistic suicide. 

This is a great topic, easily involving much more than what I or anyone can say in this forum.  It is definately deserving of the worlds full attention.  I have only said a small piece, but I hope others respond to your string and that you find at least some of the answers you seek.

By the way, I wish you safety and success on your journey.

I'm going to argue that the people in the middle east cannot, on their own, come to a settlement. This is not like Ireland, simply a matter of hatred. It is also a matter of fear.

Israel fears the arab states. In that fear, it wants homogeneity in Israel; it wants a bigger Israel; and it wants a militarily unchallengeable Israel. So long as Israel is afraid then, paradoxically, it is not going to be interested in peace. And it is certainly not going to foster another arab state right next door to it.

So long as Israel is in that thinking mode, the neighbouring arab states, in their fear, will respond in exactly the same terms.

The issue is not hatred so much as fear.

So the west, in leaving Israel to defend itself (while supplying the arms to do so) has made war more likely, not less. And in a long period of wars, Israel probably loses in the end.

I think this is a case in which those who want peace will find they cannot get it with just the directly involved parties. First, the fear has to be eased. And that can be done only with major power guarantees - (Though this is something that should have been done 60 years ago, so it may well be too late.)

graeme

YouthWorker, you say "Israel wants to expand its borders and overtake regions held by Palestinians.  Palestine wants to keep its land, expand its borders, and be allowed to live their lives on their land."

Actually, this isn't true. Israel has withdrawn from Gaza and has offered - more than once - to withdraw from up to 98% of the West Bank, swapping land in Israel itself to make up the difference. If you look at a map of the region, you will see that Israel is actually a tiny speck (you'll appreciate just how small it is when you get there), in a huge swathe of Arab lands. So is it really about land?

The Palestinians in Gaza can look towards Egypt, and those in the West Bank could look to Jordan, if all they really wanted was land. Both countries have more than enough room to accommodate them.

Unfortunately, as evidenced by the remarks of Mahmoud Abbas just this week - "The 'Jewish state.' What is a 'Jewish state?' We call it, the 'State of Israel'. You can call yourselves whatever you want. But I will not accept it." - the Arab world has yet to come to terms with having Israel exist at all.

That said, I wish you the very best of luck on your travels. I only hope that you will spend time examining both sides of the argument and that you will keep an open mind. I can assure you that you will find Israel to be the most fascinating, intriguing and exciting place on the planet.

Hi StanleyT --

Thanks for correcting me on that.  I do realise that possession of land is not what the whole conflict is about, but I do think it is a part of the conflict.  Like I said way above, I will find out more when I get there.

And don't worry -- I agree with you 100% that I need to go with an open mind.  I am trying to go with no biases and no misinformation.  I want to learn as much as I can, to soak up as much as I can.  I want to listen.

There's a minister in the area who recently went to Israel and Palestine.  I asked him for advice, and he said something along the lines of "Listen.  Just listen.  When you open your mouth to speak, ask yourself if you want to speak for yourself or to clarify information.  If it's to speak for yourself, close your mouth and keep listening."  I think the plan is to visit destinations in both Israel and Palestine and talk to as many people on both sides as we can.

When I was in Bosnia last fall, I learned the power of listening.  I walked with a friend and a local Bosnian through the Srebrenica Genocide Memorial and Cemetery.  His quiet words spoke to the horror and the tragedy of Srebrenica.  His speaking brought an unbelievably devastating situation straight to me.  It was a day I don't think I'll ever forget, and it's all because I chose to listen instead of talk.

How the community managed to return to peace after that, I still don't know.

YouthWorker, with your attitude, I'm sure you're going to learn a lot and have a truly wonderful experience. I hope you'll keep us up to date on your travels and I look forward to hearing your news.