My wife and I are wearing red squares… and will be in church on Sunday.
You may like to do likewise.
Dcn. Jae
Posted on: 05/26/2012 15:42
Okay... I'll bite... what is Bill 78? Is it against noise pollution? What does wearing red squares have to do with it?
Rich blessings.
---
MC jae
Pilgrims Progress
Posted on: 05/26/2012 17:03
I'm convinced that in today's climate - where the government is acting more and more like an instrument of big corporations and the mega-wealthy - this peaceful demonstration is the way forward for the "average" citizen in so-called democratic countries.........
To avoid giving the police the chance to use their powers to end the demonstration (to prevent "violence") discipline has to be maintained from those protesting.
Howzabout nuns, clergy of all faiths wearing clerical garb, women pushing prams, old ladies wearing purple - all leading the demonstrations and carrying powerful signs?
Once people lose faith in the ability of their governments to govern for all, they demonstrate in the streets.
Peaceful demonstrations are far, far better than the alternative riots and violence.
But if they're not successful in bringing about change peacefully, then violence may well be the only option left.
Let's hope that it will not come to that. Give peace a chance.
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 05/27/2012 10:34
MC jae wrote:
Okay... I'll bite... what is Bill 78? Is it against noise pollution? What does wearing red squares have to do with it?
Rich blessings.
---
MC jae
The Red Square ... from wikipedia ...
The symbol of support for the boycott of classes was a small square of red cloth worn upon clothing as a kind of ribbon. The Parti Québécois MNAs, then in opposition, wore the red square to to demonstrate their support for the boycotting students.
On March 30, a group of students hoisted the symbol opposed to students' # poverty on Mount Royal cross. It took a full day before authorities were able to remove it. On its lower panel, it was written: "Arrêtons de sacrifier nos enfants", which means: "Let's stop sacrificing our children."
16. A person, a body or a group that is the organizer of a demonstration involving 50 people or more to take place in a venue accessible to the public must, not less than eight hours before the beginning of the demonstration, provide the following information in writing to the police force serving the territory where the demonstration is to take place:
[....]
26. Anyone who contravenes section 3, the first paragraph of section 10, section 11, the second paragraph of section 12 or section 13, 14, 15, 16 or 17 is guilty of an offence and is liable, for each day or part of a day during which the contravention continues, to a fine of $1,000 to $5,000.
However, the fine is
(1) $7,000 to $35,000 if the offence is committed by a senior officer, an employee or a representative, including a spokesperson, of a student association, a federation of associations or an association of employees, by a senior officer or a representative of an institution, or by a natural person who is the organizer of a demonstration; and
(2) $25,000 to $125,000 if the offence is committed by a student association, a federation of associations, an association of employees or an institution, or by a legal person, a body or a group that is the organizer of a demonstration.
The fines prescribed by this section are doubled for a second or subsequent offence.
******
According to Bill 78, the people in the above video were breaking the law and, due to the ambiguity of Section 16, so would a church picnic.
But human beings are not machines, and however powerful the pressure to conform, they sometimes are so moved by what they see as injustice that they dare to declare their independence.
In that historical possibility lies hope.
Howard Zinn, You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train:
A Personal History of Our Times
graeme
Posted on: 05/27/2012 12:57
I'm sorry I'm not there. But we'll have what should be a pretty big protest against shale gas here in Moncton on June 2. And I shall certainly be there.
The presence of clergy, in clerical dress and at the head of the procession would be nice but, from what I've seen of the Moncton clergy, not likely. A substantial number of them pubicly participate only in stoning gays.
Dcn. Jae
Posted on: 05/27/2012 14:58
Thank you LBMuskoka for the explanation.
I must say -- I won't be participating in the whole red square thing. I don't feel especially sorry for the Quebec students whining over a proposed tuition hike that would still make the cost of their attending school significantly less than my own.
As to Bill 78, it just sounds like the government wants protests to be limited to those that are organized and legal -- what's wrong with that?
Rich blessings.
---
MC jae
Asking
Posted on: 05/27/2012 14:29
MC jae
Just looking at the issues of tuition fees and Bill 78 separately and with a very narrow focus, I can easily feel the same way.
But there are consequences (questions of constitutionality and democratic rights) and growing ground swell opposition to the new law; and the students' protest against tuition hikes has blossomed into a review of what the general Quebec society wants. See the thread on "Quebec Student Stike".
If you don't want to wear a red square, you can choose a green square, or a white square, and I think now that someone is trying to organize another colour as well, maybe black, although I am not up to date on how that is progresssing. Each colour has a meaning.
Nothing is as simple as it appears at first glance and especially this Quebec student movement. It seems that it may even be moving into Toronto and elsewhere.
Dcn. Jae
Posted on: 05/27/2012 15:05
Asking wrote:
If you don't want to wear a red square, you can choose a green square, or a white square, and I think now that someone is trying to organize another colour as well, maybe black, although I am not up to date on how that is progresssing. Each colour has a meaning.
Thanks for the tip Asking. I am going to wear a yellow circle.
It means "I want more lemon pie!"
Rich blessings.
---
MC jae
Pilgrims Progress
Posted on: 05/27/2012 16:34
graeme wrote:
The presence of clergy, in clerical dress and at the head of the procession would be nice but, from what I've seen of the Moncton clergy, not likely. A substantial number of them pubicly participate only in stoning gays.
********** Tangent alert *****************
Graeme,
That last sentence of yours wins the Wondercafe all-time award for the best typo error..............
revjohn
Posted on: 05/28/2012 07:50
Hi Pilgrims Progress,
Pilgrims Progress wrote:
That last sentence of yours wins the Wondercafe all-time award for the best typo error..............
Unless, of course, it is not a typo.
Then it wins the TMI award.
Grace and peace to you.
John
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 05/29/2012 08:21
MC jae wrote:
As to Bill 78, it just sounds like the government wants protests to be limited to those that are organized and legal -- what's wrong with that?
What is wrong is, it is badly written and badly written laws impact even those people who support the concept of the law. For any law, ask yourself: If *my* group was the target would *I* support this law? As written, Bill 78 has the authority to deny any group the right to assemble in a number greater than 50.
It also violates a founding principle of democratic nations - the right for people to peacefully assemble. The amendment in the US Constitution regarding the right to assemble was written to counter a similar law devised by the British authority that restricted the number of people who could "lawfully" assemble in one place.
From the Magna Carta of 1215, to US Constitution of 1776, to the United Nations 1948 Human Rights Declaration and our own Canadian Constitution, the right to assembly has been viewed as the keystone to foster democracy and counter totalitarianism.
Totalitarian regimes rely on the inability of the people to join together to speak out, to prevent the spread of information that poses a threat to their control. They rely on silence and ignorance and, equally important, totalitarians rely on the law - as they write it.
As for the Quebec Students ... no one will ever be able to convince me that the desire to obtain the highest education possible is that of the spoiled brat nor will anyone convince me that that desire should be attainable only to those who had the good fortune of being born into wealthier circumstances than another.
Education, the higher the better, is another keystone in preventing totalitarians. Perhaps that is why governments, even in democratic nations, seek to control its accessibility because in doing so it keeps the people ignorant of the rights and responsibilities of both.
We must not believe the many, who say that only free people ought to be educated, but we should rather believe the philosophers who say that only the educated are free.
Epictetus (AD 55 – AD 135))
chemgal
Posted on: 05/29/2012 09:55
LBmuskoka wrote:
As for the Quebec Students ... no one will ever be able to convince me that the desire to obtain the highest education possible is that of the spoiled brat nor will anyone convince me that that desire should be attainable only to those who had the good fortune of being born into wealthier circumstances than another.
Education can be obtained quite cheaply. It's the degree/diploma/certificate that goes along with the education that costs. Even then, it isn't only for the wealthy. Wealth is not a consideration for acceptance into a school. There are scholarships, bursaries and loans available. There are also grants that work along with RESPs. I do think that tuition is high, and that some students do need to take out too large of a loan.
Comments
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 05/26/2012 07:33
Here is the background article ...
Montreal Pots And Pans Video Of Protest Against Bill 78 Goes Viral
Huffington Post, May 25, 2012
MikePaterson
Posted on: 05/26/2012 14:50
My wife and I are wearing red squares… and will be in church on Sunday.
You may like to do likewise.
Dcn. Jae
Posted on: 05/26/2012 15:42
Okay... I'll bite... what is Bill 78? Is it against noise pollution? What does wearing red squares have to do with it?
Rich blessings.
---
MC jae
Pilgrims Progress
Posted on: 05/26/2012 17:03
I'm convinced that in today's climate - where the government is acting more and more like an instrument of big corporations and the mega-wealthy - this peaceful demonstration is the way forward for the "average" citizen in so-called democratic countries.........
To avoid giving the police the chance to use their powers to end the demonstration (to prevent "violence") discipline has to be maintained from those protesting.
Howzabout nuns, clergy of all faiths wearing clerical garb, women pushing prams, old ladies wearing purple - all leading the demonstrations and carrying powerful signs?
Once people lose faith in the ability of their governments to govern for all, they demonstrate in the streets.
Peaceful demonstrations are far, far better than the alternative riots and violence.
But if they're not successful in bringing about change peacefully, then violence may well be the only option left.
Let's hope that it will not come to that. Give peace a chance.
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 05/27/2012 10:34
Okay... I'll bite... what is Bill 78? Is it against noise pollution? What does wearing red squares have to do with it?
Rich blessings.
---
MC jae
The Red Square ... from wikipedia ...
The symbol of support for the boycott of classes was a small square of red cloth worn upon clothing as a kind of ribbon. The Parti Québécois MNAs, then in opposition, wore the red square to to demonstrate their support for the boycotting students.
On March 30, a group of students hoisted the symbol opposed to students' # poverty on Mount Royal cross. It took a full day before authorities were able to remove it. On its lower panel, it was written: "Arrêtons de sacrifier nos enfants", which means: "Let's stop sacrificing our children."
Bill 78
16. A person, a body or a group that is the organizer of a demonstration involving 50 people or more to take place in a venue accessible to the public must, not less than eight hours before the beginning of the demonstration, provide the following information in writing to the police force serving the territory where the demonstration is to take place:
[....]
26. Anyone who contravenes section 3, the first paragraph of section 10, section 11, the second paragraph of section 12 or section 13, 14, 15, 16 or 17 is guilty of an offence and is liable, for each day or part of a day during which the contravention continues, to a fine of $1,000 to $5,000.
However, the fine is
(1) $7,000 to $35,000 if the offence is committed by a senior officer, an employee or a representative, including a spokesperson, of a student association, a federation of associations or an association of employees, by a senior officer or a representative of an institution, or by a natural person who is the organizer of a demonstration; and
(2) $25,000 to $125,000 if the offence is committed by a student association, a federation of associations, an association of employees or an institution, or by a legal person, a body or a group that is the organizer of a demonstration.
The fines prescribed by this section are doubled for a second or subsequent offence.
******
According to Bill 78, the people in the above video were breaking the law and, due to the ambiguity of Section 16, so would a church picnic.
But human beings are not machines, and however powerful the pressure to conform, they sometimes are so moved by what they see as injustice that they dare to declare their independence.
In that historical possibility lies hope.
Howard Zinn, You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train:
A Personal History of Our Times
graeme
Posted on: 05/27/2012 12:57
I'm sorry I'm not there. But we'll have what should be a pretty big protest against shale gas here in Moncton on June 2. And I shall certainly be there.
The presence of clergy, in clerical dress and at the head of the procession would be nice but, from what I've seen of the Moncton clergy, not likely. A substantial number of them pubicly participate only in stoning gays.
Dcn. Jae
Posted on: 05/27/2012 14:58
Thank you LBMuskoka for the explanation.
I must say -- I won't be participating in the whole red square thing. I don't feel especially sorry for the Quebec students whining over a proposed tuition hike that would still make the cost of their attending school significantly less than my own.
As to Bill 78, it just sounds like the government wants protests to be limited to those that are organized and legal -- what's wrong with that?
Rich blessings.
---
MC jae
Asking
Posted on: 05/27/2012 14:29
MC jae
Just looking at the issues of tuition fees and Bill 78 separately and with a very narrow focus, I can easily feel the same way.
But there are consequences (questions of constitutionality and democratic rights) and growing ground swell opposition to the new law; and the students' protest against tuition hikes has blossomed into a review of what the general Quebec society wants. See the thread on "Quebec Student Stike".
If you don't want to wear a red square, you can choose a green square, or a white square, and I think now that someone is trying to organize another colour as well, maybe black, although I am not up to date on how that is progresssing. Each colour has a meaning.
Nothing is as simple as it appears at first glance and especially this Quebec student movement. It seems that it may even be moving into Toronto and elsewhere.
Dcn. Jae
Posted on: 05/27/2012 15:05
Thanks for the tip Asking. I am going to wear a yellow circle.
It means "I want more lemon pie!"
Rich blessings.
---
MC jae
Pilgrims Progress
Posted on: 05/27/2012 16:34
The presence of clergy, in clerical dress and at the head of the procession would be nice but, from what I've seen of the Moncton clergy, not likely. A substantial number of them pubicly participate only in stoning gays.
********** Tangent alert *****************
Graeme,
That last sentence of yours wins the Wondercafe all-time award for the best typo error..............
revjohn
Posted on: 05/28/2012 07:50
Hi Pilgrims Progress,
That last sentence of yours wins the Wondercafe all-time award for the best typo error..............
Unless, of course, it is not a typo.
Then it wins the TMI award.
Grace and peace to you.
John
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 05/29/2012 08:21
As to Bill 78, it just sounds like the government wants protests to be limited to those that are organized and legal -- what's wrong with that?
What is wrong is, it is badly written and badly written laws impact even those people who support the concept of the law. For any law, ask yourself: If *my* group was the target would *I* support this law? As written, Bill 78 has the authority to deny any group the right to assemble in a number greater than 50.
It also violates a founding principle of democratic nations - the right for people to peacefully assemble. The amendment in the US Constitution regarding the right to assemble was written to counter a similar law devised by the British authority that restricted the number of people who could "lawfully" assemble in one place.
From the Magna Carta of 1215, to US Constitution of 1776, to the United Nations 1948 Human Rights Declaration and our own Canadian Constitution, the right to assembly has been viewed as the keystone to foster democracy and counter totalitarianism.
Totalitarian regimes rely on the inability of the people to join together to speak out, to prevent the spread of information that poses a threat to their control. They rely on silence and ignorance and, equally important, totalitarians rely on the law - as they write it.
As for the Quebec Students ... no one will ever be able to convince me that the desire to obtain the highest education possible is that of the spoiled brat nor will anyone convince me that that desire should be attainable only to those who had the good fortune of being born into wealthier circumstances than another.
Education, the higher the better, is another keystone in preventing totalitarians. Perhaps that is why governments, even in democratic nations, seek to control its accessibility because in doing so it keeps the people ignorant of the rights and responsibilities of both.
We must not believe the many, who say that only free people ought to be educated, but we should rather believe the philosophers who say that only the educated are free.
Epictetus (AD 55 – AD 135))
chemgal
Posted on: 05/29/2012 09:55
As for the Quebec Students ... no one will ever be able to convince me that the desire to obtain the highest education possible is that of the spoiled brat nor will anyone convince me that that desire should be attainable only to those who had the good fortune of being born into wealthier circumstances than another.
Education can be obtained quite cheaply. It's the degree/diploma/certificate that goes along with the education that costs. Even then, it isn't only for the wealthy. Wealth is not a consideration for acceptance into a school. There are scholarships, bursaries and loans available. There are also grants that work along with RESPs. I do think that tuition is high, and that some students do need to take out too large of a loan.
I don't agree with Bill 78.