I think there are better ways of communicating than violent protests.  I also don't think post secondary education should be free (maybe not as expensive as it is), and Quebec isn't the highest priced.  I think that the majority of the protesters are immature.  It's similar to when I was in high school and there was a transit strike.  Some students protested.  Some of them were actually interested in getting their point across, but most just wanted to skip classes.

There is no Freedom, but the search for Freedom. And the search is what makes us free.

~ Carlos Fuentes (1928-2012)

the Global Human Spring continues...

G20 report slams police.

never forget WTO 1999...

and so it goes

(the Social Marxist in me is cackling)

EDIT:  Charges expected against some G20 police

It is interesting there are three seperate narratives to this. The one in the ROC, the one in the traditional media and the one online.

I find what the students are saying online to be different than what is reported, except occasionally in the French language press. 

People still think it is about 300 dollars in tutition fees. But you have to ask yourself why would a strike like this continue for so long if it was only about that.

It is clearly is not about 300 dollars if you listen to the students. The strike is part of a broader movement call Printemps d'erable. Or maple spring, which in french rymes es with arab spring.

Intersting but overlooked  in the corporate Press is  the fact that they choose a Canadian symbol, for reasons other than the ryhme

There are five basic goals of the Maple Spring movement.  The first is a free education system. And the student strike is about as much drawing a line in the sand than it is anything else. When asked  in interview the students leaders are saying two things,. One low costs or free education (CEGEP) are part of the social contract. And yes while they spend less than elsewhere in North America, they pay more than in Europe. THe aslo will say look education use to be free or cheap in the rest of Canda, and in some US states. If you do not take a stand now the fees will continue to grow.

What is very interesting for federalist and anglophones, and allophones, is that this movement is concerned with federal affairs, as oppose to withdrawing for the federation. It is in my opinion a reconceptualisation of the Quebec social contract, and project without independence.  And to be defines around values and social democracy. 

The other 4 demands or goals of the maple spring involve the Federal governemnt. . 2 of them are exclusively in the federal.  In the past left wing movements and other popular movements would say something to the effect to be achieve with independence.    This time not a wisper.  

I have long said that people my age and young are lukewarm towards independence.  or indifferent. This is becasue like all youth today they have an international outlook. As well no one remembrs the bad old days before the sixities.  The speratist genration has died of. Peopel have fail to notice that the PQ is still runn by people who were in Levesque governemnt. The young by an larde have stayed out of the movement, and like youth elsewhere are combatting instead for the enviornomnet, sociual justice, peace, etc.

Below are the other 4 demands. I have nevr seen such a set of goals come from the left before, with a high priotity on First Nations, and INternational affairs, . If they were mention in past movements,  it was to be done only after independence.  

 This is another sign that the independence movement has run out of steam.  Of course the old seperatist are trying to hijack this movement, just as anarchists, and others. But what has been remarable beside the length of the strike is the way the student leaders have keep denouncing these side movements as a part from them.

The right to education for everyone

The right to a healthy environment

The rights of the indigenous peoples to their aboriginal lands, 

The right to enjoy a responsible and democratic government, 

The right to pacifism and international solidarity,

The right to a local, sustainable, mutually supportive social economy

Alex,

have you ever written for a paper?  You're a good journalist.

TCharest actions this week are going to make the movement last longer. He has already delayed an election this Spring, and it is unlikely he will win one in the Fall after the corruption inguiries have influenced public opion. This plus the problem with the PQ, and two other parites means we are looking at a period of minority governments.

The PQ is trying to hitch themselves to the student movement.. But the students point out that the last time fees were raised if was done by the now leader Pauline Marois,

Also after many people were asking how a multimillionaire (Pauline Marois) could represent them and not Quebecois, she sold her mansion for x millions of dollars. Now students and other are asking how she ammased a fortune when she was in government and her husband ran a labour funds. Fonds Solidarite was a pension fund run by the FTQ Unions, and he was the one who ran it. He used that and Pauline;s position in the governemnt to get hired to work for the 1%.   She is the most disliked of all the party leaders on the left. 

The Liberals are facing a huge scandal in the construction industry, Meanwhile the new conservative party has landed flat on it's face, and the socilaist party is growing slowly,  but not at the rate you would expect.. (The have one seat. now.) 

 Also sevral important Liberal cabinet minister have quit, and left politics behind.

BY taking a hardline with the students the LIberals will be splitting the conservative party support, which had been leading in the pollls. So with three and four way races, in many ridings the Fall election will be close.

My brain is does not function well evryday, so I would need an editor.  But writing a blog on polics and religion is an idea I have had. I am not sure I can be clear enough on a regular basis.  All my plans on  on hold, until I have recovered from a health issue that makes it painfully to sit., and meant that I have not worked or taken classe for almost 18 months now. Howevr I started a recent treatment after finaly having a diagnoses. So i am thing about what to do if and when I get better.

Graeme, What do you mean by " cutting their own throats" and "the mess they're now in"?

Are you referring to Quebec universities or universities all across Canada?

Asking

chemgal - you're so right about violent protest being a bad idea. The British should have taken a tougher stand aagainst their colonies in 1775. And King Louis of France was far too soft on those spoiled brats who rebelled.

Notice you never see billionaires protesting in the streets? That's became they have respect for democracy and the law.

asking - I mean universities across Canada and the US.-and in some other countries.

They live on snobbery and perpetual status seeking. It's, for most professors, what being a professor is all about. It's not about teaching. It's about reciting largely useless and soon forgotten information - and doing as little even of that as possible so they can have lots of free time to do the research their prestige is based on. - no matter how much of that research is irrelevant to anything.

In consequence, whole areas, notably in the arts, are suffering - with more to come - as students realize these are money spent with no return. The drift is to become high level trade schools - as in producing senior staff for companies. But even this leans heavily on research for prestige - and not at all on any understanding of education.

It's an extremely expensive way to run a university and, in terms of intellectual development, close to useless. And it's all made worse by the Maclean's ratings which are absurd, but which are the real forces driving university planning. True. Our universities are effectively controlled by magazine editors.

It's expensive, and doubly so because the results are so poor. In consequence, the universities are narrowing their potential student body to their traditional enrolments of rich kids who want three years to have a good time.

Alex - good stuff. I've just been writing my blog on that subject - and may very well steal some of your ideas.

Graeme,

Thanks for explaining what you meant by universities cutting their own throats and what the mess is that they find themselves in. 

You write that “...the drift is to become high level trade schools – as in producing senior staff for companies.   But even this leans heavily on research for prestige – and not at all on any understanding of education. ...”  

 One of the CLASSE proposals for compromise was to have universities reduce spending on research by $42million thus freeing up money so that tuition fees could be frozen.  It has long been my understanding that research is one of the reasons for a university’s existence so, I wondered, how loopy could this CLASSE leader be!

Could your comment be taken to indicate that there is value to the CLASSE proposal? 

I am getting the feeling that this is becoming a movement, with support from some teachers and even out-of-province unions, rather than just a protest. 

The universities were founded essentially for research - with students permitted to attend as apprentices to the masters - just as in shoe-making or pottery, etc. Like masters in the trades, professors didn't have to know how to teach. Students simply copied them to become their clones.

The kind of intimacy that style requires ceased to exist long ago - and universities learned they could raise funding by attracting the sons of the rich for several years of drinking and partying. still no need to know  how to teach.

All that changed after World War Two - well, actually, it didn't change, though it was vital that it should as university became a normal extenstion of public schooling.

For those who stick it out, and become professors, most of what they have learned is how to be clones of the ones who taught them. Certainly, my experience of graduate schools was that they amounted largely to learning how to think in the currently correct academic ways.

Learning to teach down't mean just learning methodology of teaching. It also means to know what to teach. For example, to teach Canadian history as a matter of names and dates in largely a waste of time. To teach it as memorizing is entirely a waste of time - even if what the students are memorizing is patterns of hisotrical thought. But that's the way almost all of it is done.

Free university is necessary if we are to develop our full potential. As it is, most of the poor simply cannot afford to go. That's as true in Quebec as in all the other provinces. Other countries have been able to provide free university education. Finland does - and Canada is certainly as rich as Finland.

We have the money. But for the past thirty years, we have been devoting more of it each year into the pockets of the very rich. That's why we're short.

The rules are simple:

1; Most g overnments in Canada are bought by the very rich. (it's even worse in the US). They act, therefore, in the interests of the very rich.

2. people who protest against this get their names put on lists.

3. If they don't protest publicly, then nothing will happen. If they go public, there is the risk of  disorder.

4. Once public protest becomes a problem, the government and the news media blame it on the protesters. completely ignoring how the failure of the media to tell the truth, and the failure of government to act in the public interest are the real problems.

5. Billionaires don't hold public protests. They don't have to.

6. So the issue ceases to be the corruption of government and its failure to deal with issues, it becomes maintaining the law. Bring in the riot police - then perhaps the army. The US already has a full brigade of combat troops permanently based in the US.

We're seeing lots of signs of where this is going in Canada. Harper has officially referred to environmentalists as terrorists, for example.

Most government have ceased to represent us. Thus the collapse of interest in voting. The very wealthy are on course to bleed us dry. that's not hyperbole. Look at the distribution of wealth over the last thirty years. If you vote, the politicians ignore what you want. If you publicly protest, they call out the police.

All that does is to bottle up the anger - until the bottle explodes.

That's what has happened with the students in Quebec. That is what is going to happen a lot more across north America. And the answer, as always, will be to uphold the law. It will also be to pass ever more repressive law - like forbidding the wearing of masks during a protest - as if our social problems were caused by people wearing masks.

The very wealthy have been making their big play to end democracy and to impose their own rule for some fifty years. They almost have it wrapped up. And if you oppose them, you're the threat to law and order.

One of the things that I find very interesting with this strike is seeing how different types of people opinions are shaped.

I am not aware of many protests or stikes, that were based on the understanding of a common good.    In the sixities,  a large part of the whole student protests against the Vietnam war and the general attitudes about freedom from repressions, were largely based on an idea held by many youths of How dare anyone tell me what to do, let alone send me to war against my will. 

One  thing that survived the protests was the eventual end of the draft, because the powers to be realised that that is what drove a large number (not all) of the "peace" movement. The USA howevr remained a warrior nations, albeit one that waged war in different ways.

Howevr the issue that changed the world and lead to progress was the civil rights movements. African americans were fighting such a large battle that they knew that their goals would not be met in one genration, so many were involved not just for themselves, but for their children and for their neighbours childrens.  White allies were also involved not for themselves but for their neighbours.

The example the African American community and their tactics and determiniation  against a persuavive racist culture made the whole idea of equality  imaginable, it allowed others to start to dream and become empowered. It lead to the rapid growth in the sevenities of the women, Queer rights and Disabled rights movements of the sevenities, and is a continuing agent of change.

Meanwhile many of those who were demonstarting aginst the war because "no one tells me what to do" are now the backbone of the Tea Party. "No one tells me what I need to do with my money (taxes)  No collective rights, no welfare, unless its about what I want, ie social security. and for those I know.

Since this is Wondercafe, it would be amiss of me to not point out that civil rights movement of the sixties, was largely church and mosque led.  I believ this is so, because the example of the OLD Testament profits, and the Gospels, provided the inspiration necessary for an oppressed people to believ that things could change. Rather than act as a "conservative" force to maintain as so many churches do, the African American churches were driven by the ideas of justice and the message of change, both individual and short term change, but also long term and collective change.

Now back to Quebec, The idea that this is only about 300 dollars in tuition is absurb. A long strike like this for 300 dollars is not in their self interest.  Hiowevr if you actually listen to the students you will see that they are talking about and asking others "What kind of Society do we want" We need to draw a line in the sand, and now is as good of a time as ever.  No more shall we scapegoat the "other"(anglos and allos). We must move together to build a better world for all. Accessible,  education is just one issue, but it is just the start.

Grame made an interesting point about education today, and this is reflected in a split in the students and Quebec society. The strike is being lead by students in the arts. History, philosophy and theology students understand  the long term and collective reasoning, and it is that which motivates them to strike, vote and it gives this movment lasting power. 

Conversly the governement and businesss, and engineering students are saying  it's only about 300 dollars, and the strike this is not in my best interest. They beleive education is only about producing trained workers for the economy so that we can continue to make money and maintain the current system.  Afterall they say, we can not change society so why try.

Now if I were to bet between a group using long term and globally based reasoning againts a group using short term and individual reasoning, I would bet on the first group winning.  We shall see, but it will likely become readily apparent to future historians about who had more influence and power.  

It also demonstarts the strength of a liberal arts education.

That is one of the reason why I highly admire historians like Graeme and the many Theologically minded people here.

Regardless if the students win or lose in the short term they will will win out in the long term. As Martin Luthor King said "Let us realize the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice"  Much as Jesus "lost" in the short term when he was killed for speaking and acting out, but won in the long term, becasue his ideas and example is still remember 200 years later, when those who stood against him (religious and political authorities) are forgotten, or only remeber becasue of there connection to Jesus.

Expect severe repression first.

I see Classe's leader Gabriel Nadeau Dubois  as the most interesting and one of the most talented and abled person involved in Canadian politics, today. He is very reasonable, well spoken, and feared by the two the main parties in Quebec.  Yet He is only 21 years old. 

A couple of weeks ago he was the main guest on Toutes Le Monde Parle, (TMEP) a Quebec show that is the most watched and influential TV programs in Canada. It was immediately after Jack Layton being a guest that the NDP started rapidly rising in the polls. Many credit this apperance and J the leadership debate as largely being responsible for the Orange Crush. 

While on the show Nadeau was remarkable, he efectively tore apart Charest and exposed his lies and the lies (and 1/2 truths) being repeated in the Canadian Press. The students also speak against those  involved inthe  violence, calling it wrong and a stupid tactic. The hosts and other guests were gushing over him,  calling him a future Prime Minister and the most inspirational and capable leader to appear in Quebec since Levesque..  

Here is a video of  Gabriel and the leaders of the other two Student groups onTMEP. Note that not only do the hosts ask questions, but other guests do as well. Making it more of a round table discussion. The other guests are movie stars, philosophers, Journalists, and other people that are in the news. 

Most of the news media have completely missed the point and the importance of what is going on in Quebec. Big business has effectively taken over government. Alas! It is quite incompetent of governing. But it rules with a brutality equal to the worst dictators we have known.

We have been fighting wars ever since 1945 to serve the interests of big business. (We like to call it global strategy - the purpose of it is to serve business.) I don't know how many wars are being fought now. I'm not sure anybody knows. So many of them are fought without announcement or news. And their are many more to come - each of them capable of raising the stakes to nuclear level.

Big business has shown imcompetent,  disastrous and often illegal social and political leadership - not to mention an unlimited enthusiasm for envitronmental destruction. The Arctic is already on their plate.

Lucky for us most of them belong to Christian churches, and are made to feel comfortable there.

Alex

That was a good sentence to pick out of my post to comment on.

Last night, I was preparing a response to Graeme’s response to an earlier post of mine.  I admit that I often process by impressions rather than fact and logic and I did not feel that that would be a good way to continue this “conversation”.  So instead of posting, I looked up the history of some of this story.  One item I discovered was a 20-minute-or-so video of Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois delivering a speech last fall and inviting his audience to join in a protest rally last November 10.   I agree with you that he is an excellent speaker and presented a very reasoned argument for his views.  I was impressed – favourably.

 I also looked up a bit of detail about the education reform in the 1960’s.  The “social contract” or the “social project”, common vocabulary then and now in Quebec, promoted the notion of education as a right that everyone should be able to benefit from and if free university education was not promised, at least the facilitation of financial access to it was.  (Education was to be and is free through to the end of cégep.) 

Until I did that research last night, I was going on impressions fed from two sources.  One is that my son has just graduated this month with a B. Comm.  from Concordia.  If he had been prevented from attending classes, writing his exams, and completing his studies on schedule, I, along with him and most of his classmates, would have been royally ticked.  More on this below.  The other source is the prominent CJAD radio station that spends much of its talk time on the student protest and unless I missed a significant message, their almost total focus is on the inconvenience, dangers, immaturity, unreasonableness of the students, opinion largely supported by people calling in, and interviews with lawyers, negotiation consultants and other pundits.  More on this below, too.

Now, back to explaining why I would have been royally ticked:  probably it has something to do with not being a native Quebecer.  I went to school, including university, in Ontario.  The only “social project” (not that it was ever called that), was that you need a good education in today’s world, you pay for it, costs go up year after year, it is an investment.  And the universities need the money for various reasons, one being to attract and keep qualified professors.  In my research last night, I learned that before the Quebec educational reforms of the 60’s, relatively few French Quebecers went to university while the English universities had significantly higher enrolments.  Our (French/English)  backgrounds and expectations were different then and it seems our approaches to at least this educational situation are still different today.  My Anglophone background is reflected in my “loopy” comment.  Note, too, that the English cégeps and universities have mainly stayed open and functioning so their students will graduate on schedule and their students and/or students’ families are more accepting of the fee hikes over the next five (or seven) years. 

Now more on the “loopy” comment.  I have already explained how my main radio station presents the coverage of the protests.  In addition, the student reps who are interviewed on an almost daily basis, have presented some eye-popping views from time to time.  In particular, after the rock-throwing onto one of the major expressways and again after the smoke bombs in the metro, they stuck to the line that they did not have a mandate to condemn violence, much less tell their constituents how to behave  (They later decided to condemn violence.)  Their mandate was to demand a tuition freeze from the government.  The leader of CLASSE, which is considered the most radical of the three main student unions, told his radio interviewer that the students who obtained injunctions to be able to return to class were not following the democratic process.  He also opined that a judge who ordered an injunction maybe did not have the right to do so.  He and the other leaders also claimed that the government did not negotiate in good faith.  The government made concessions (although not on tuition fees), the student unions gave nothing at first, then made suggestions such as to reduce research budgets (universities are about research!), and then warned that if the students protesting in the streets, on the bridges, on the expressways get hurt, the premier and his minister(s) are the ones responsible. I was impressed –  but not favourably.   Hence, my term “loopy”.

As the saying goes, there are two sides to a coin.  It was interesting doing my little bit of research last night.  I will make an effort to follow more French opinion on the French radio talk shows and newspapers to have a fuller coverage of reaction to events because you have described an image of Nadeau-Dubois that is new to me.

On another note, these student leaders will surely have jobs waiting for them when they finally do graduate because they have matured a lot and become more professional in their presentations from their earliest interviews to the ones they give now.

While I may understand their perspective better today than I did yesterday, I have not been converted.

Asky you raise some good points.

As an ex anglo from Quebec City and West Quebec, who went to High School in French and participated in a now defunct provincial NDP political party in the eighties and ninties, and who faught the PQ on their anti anglo, antti welfare policies.  I am excited to see these changes  and that long negeteted issues  are being raised.   I have longed for a debate in Quebec based on economics and social welfare as opposed to one based between French and english speaking etc.

The old nationalist debate dominated the news and public affairs for a long time in Quebec . In Anglophone Montreal and the rest of Canada it was almost the only story that concerned the press. 

One of the benefits of the shift from the national debate to one based on the left and right is that it will bring anglos, allos, and francophones together. This on on the left at least. There is a growing voice on the right, that is nationalist. Some on the right  have denounced the student for recieving funding from a foriegn source (CUPE) LOL. (a small donation, which unions traditional given to other on strike) 

Howevr what the change in politics will do,  is  enable anglophones and francophones to learn what they have in common, istead of just their differences. Believe me when I say we have more in common than we have differences. The people in youth movement I was involved in the eighties used to say that I was not an anglo, because I di not fit their steriotypes. The only anglos they knew were great hockey oplayers and Liberal politicians. Most anglos are also not great hockey players or Liberal politicans. They did not think about other anglos, let alone queer radical bricklayers

Anglos have been sidelined from Quebec society by the nationalist and the federalist. As they did to West Quebec because they would vote liberal no matter what, so why would they do anything for us.  

One thing we all need to learn is the new left in Quebce is heavily influenced by the world, and the same forces behind the occupy movement. That is likely why they did not clearly denounce the violence at the begining. As explain by Nadeau, the students are hyper democratic, and the leaders hesitate to take any position until it has been debated and adopted.  Clearly in the above video from two weeks ago they denounce violnece. It was not a shift from not caring, but of having to go through this new hyoer democratic model of consulktation and inclusion of all of the mebership. This is one way this new left is different from the past. The leadership is much more involved in being servant leaders.  I can imagine someone proposing that we should drive on the left side of the road, and phasing it in by having trucks do it for two months first. I imagine if uyou ask the leadership what there psotion was they would again say, well there are two sides to the debate and we will have to debate it. Thats not because they believe that it is a good idea, but because they are committed to this hyper democracy that respects the right of all memebrs to have the oportunity to be heards and be included in their decisions.  

Also the students against the strike in affected Universities in Cegep did not respect the democratic process, when they obtained an injunction. If you benefit from what an orgainsation does for you, and particpate in it, you need to respect the voting process. Those against the strike could have voted against it, they had many chance to do so, in cluding two weeks ago when the goverment made an offer. If they are against the Student group representing them, they can vote to abolish it.   It's analogous to a Union signing a collective agreement, and a minority decided to accept the pay raise and benfits the Union obtains, but do not think they have to pay dues or respect picket lines during strikes.  Collective bargaining rights are seen as a key aspects of all democracies, (except the USA) and have been key to the devolpment of Canada.   So I understand why Nadeau said what he did.

As to cutting research, I am not sure that is what they meant. Likely the debate usually revolves around who pays for it. Alot of university research ends up making a lot of money for private corporation. The antiviral drug 3TC was developed at McGill, This is one of the most popular HIV drugs in the world, and one professor and two corporations have made   millions of dolars through sales globally. Why shouldn't the two drug compagnies who made money from research also give back some of their profits from research done at Universities.

In your message you reminded me that the student are not actually redefining the social project, but returning to it's origin during the time of the early sixties, before the nationalist.

In fact the nationalist completely rewrote parts of Quebec history, to blame the anglos and Canada for their problems while leaving out or changing other parts. Like saying that Jean Lesage's long term goal was independence. Thus the social contract became linked with independence.  It is now being unlinked from independence.

Wow! Two Montrealers in a row - and now me. (As well, I was twice daily on CJAD for a dozen years. CJAD is not strong on deep thinking.- or on t hinking at all.)

What has happened in Quebec as all over north america (and much of the western world) is that big business has taken over government. voting means nothing. That power of big money has always been there. But it's so confident and arrogant now that it's right out in the open.

Jean Charest is a typical politican of no principles whatever, i remember covering him at the conwervative leadership meeting where he was a candidate for "liberal prnciples" Very shortly after, he was leader of the quebec liberal party.

In practice, business governs. And business is incompetent as government. Democracy has become largely a fiction, and we are all being dragged into generations of wars that are purely for business benefit. Yes, students used smoke bombs and should not have.

We bombed Libya and killed people, and should not have.

Students are breakinig the law? No doubt. - though scarcely on the scale of killing and torture and pillage of Bush and Obama and, very soon, us.

And if students don't protest, what will happen? Will big business give a green flag to Charest to seriously discuss the issue? Will Charest suddenly become honest?

Here, in New Brunswick, the big issue is fracking for natural gas. There has been a tidal wave of rejection because of the dangers of fracking. But that has not the slightest impact on the determination of the government or of the gas companies.

We will have a big demonstration in Moncton quite soon. I know it will have no effect on the politicians or on corporate bosses. The government doesn't answer to us. It answers to the Irvins and their cricle. And the Irvings don't answer to anybody.

So who is it that is creating the violence?

Alex,

Thanks for the link to the Tout le monde en parle video with the FEUQ, the FECQ and the CLASSE.

You are right that this does not seem to be a French/English, them/us issue.  It is an issue regarding education and the recognition or non-recognition of the social contract set up in the 60’s.  There is a divide, however, on how “they” and “we” view university education and its costs.  The on-line article by Josh Freed in today’s Gazette “Freed: Strike highlights linguistic divide” is interesting.

A big deal has been made on radio of the reference to a student strike as opposed to a student protest or boycott.  The student unions are not unions in the sense of labour unions, the students are not employed, they are not governed by labour legislation so technically and legally, they are not on strike.  This was also an important consideration in yesterday’s Bill 78: the government cannot order the students back to class in the way that they can order striking employees back to work.   So the law orders them not to block access to educational buildings and classrooms.  And from what I understand, the students are not bound, at least legally and maybe not even morally, by decisions resulting from voting within their student union – this from a university professor who is a former student union president at McGill (sorry, can’t remember his name).  Therefore, they were operating within the democratic process when they filed for injunctions.  Some of the reports of the voting process, especially at Concordia, did not sound very democratic to me and not just because of the pressure applied by peers in the open voting.  I do not know whether the hyper democratic CLASSE ensured that all their members had the opportunity to vote.  More research needed.

Other headlines on the internet tonight indicate that this rebellion against tuition fees is spreading to Ontario and as you said, is part of the occupy movement elsewhere.

Well, you are the one who said that Graeme!  But truth be told, I do switch to the CBC from time to time for a different quality of talk and reporting.  I find that the general opinion of these student events is however very similar to that expressed on CJAD.  Or maybe I just hear what I want to hear.

Good points, Graeme.  

On a violence scale, what we have experienced here so far barely registers when compared to the world scene you mention.  Nevertheless, it is not just another calm day at the office.

My best high school history teacher said that it was always students who started revolutions.

It does take a big shakeup sometimes to change course.  I have worked closely enough to decision makers to see that outright rebellion, handled the right way by the right people, can change minds.  It seems that the right people and a cause may be coming together for a major challenge in the next few days and weeks to the powers that be.  Since the tuition fees have not been a personal cause of mine, I have been surprised by the student reactions and have not recognized in them a larger social action. 

You and Alex are good teachers.

Generally when people  discuss rights, human rights, gay rights, collective bargaining rights, we do not base the principle of what are or not rights on what the laws are, but usually on ideas that come from either theology or philosophy.  

So whether or not you believ in those rights, it should at least help you understand that people do not just pull them out of the asses. In particular collective rights are more widely accepted among francophones. In fact part of the independence argument would use those rights to hurt anglophones. However like the rights of free speech, and free elections, we should not judge rights on what people do with them.  Free speech can be used to promote hate, and free elections allow people to vote the worst kind of people and ideas.

Do some research on the Asbestos Strike in the 50s. It was one of the most viloent strikes in Canadian histroy.   It was key to the Quiet Revolution and involved such greats as Jean Marchand, Pierre Trudeau, and  Gerard Pelltier. Not only did it lead to  Quebec's quiet revolution, but the ideas that would shape Canada into much of what it was today. (along the Winnipeg General Strike in English - speaking Canada)    The reforms it triggered eventualy lead to Canada's Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms.

I didn't see Josh's article - but I expect he's partly right. It's not the same sort of issue to the English. This French generation was born our of the turmoil of a nationalism that made all sorts of promises - and delivered on few.

The English, of course,were promised nothing. There was no disillusionment. Indeed, so far as education was conocerned, the nationalist movement was largely designed to bring the French system up to the Enlgish one.

It's the  French, especially the French working class, who are disillusioned Weatlh and privilege are still powerful factors in French education. That Victorian and rigid class structure still remains in place.

If the students had not demonstrated, if they had simply written reasonble letters to the to the government, that sort of thing - what would have happened? nothing.

we are facing a similar situation in NB. A large proprotion of us are very concerned about the dangers of fracking for shale gas. they're also concerned that the contracts with private corporations are ripping us off.

Neither the gas companies nor the government give a damn what we think. We'll have a demonstration of a t housand or more, probablymore, in a week or so. (That would be equivalent to about 30,000 in Montreal.) I know it will have no effect whatever.

Generally, the people who start revolutions are the government. It Tsarisn had not been so incompetent and unyielding, t he world would never even have heard of Lenin.

(An exception was the American revolution which was started largely by the very wealthy - to benefit themselves. George Washington was the largest slave owner, a nd probably the wealthiest man, in the North American colonies.

The student strike isn't a fire. It's a spark - and in one hell of an explosive atmosphere.

Here is an interesting article from Chantel Hebert of the Star

Quebec’s stormy spring

Well, i think Hebert is living in the neverland of journalism.

1. voters,as a group, don't think in the orderly ways she assumes they do.

2. I should be surprised if the students get seduced by the PQ. The nationalist movement long ago sold out to the moneyed French. It represents the old, class-structured Quebec as much as the Liberals do.

3, She hopes people will return to the democratic process? What democratic process? Never as strong as it was claimed to be, democracy has been a dying horse for generations. It's much more obvious in the US -and living in New Brunswick has been a real eye-opener for me.

Big business controls the news media,electoral campaign funding, pleasant jobs for politicians who have been useful to it. And Charest, after all, learned politics at the feet of Brian Mulroney.

No. There is a profound disillusionment with democracy across Canada. It is, as Wilde might have said, the disillusinment that dare not say its name. You can see in the declining voter turnout. It's fashionalbe to blame that on laziness. But should people have started getting lazy forty years ago, and increase in laziness ever since.

No. they aren't lazy. they've lost faith in democracy. And it's not their fault. It's the fault of politicians who sold them out to the highest bidder.

I've learned alot reading these comments. I didn't realize how biased the reports here have been -- even from the cbc. It's always about the "rioters".  Images of burning pylons. I wonder if at least some of that is optics engineered by "agents provocateurs".  (I'm growing increasingly paranoid because of this "regime")

It's not paranoia. That sort of thing really happens. I would not be at all surprised at "terrorist outrage" in the US - orgnized by the government or by major players close to the government who want to push Obama, or by Israeli intelligence....all things are possible.

What Hebrt did get was the casting off of the nationalist-federalist struggle.  One of the things that she is mistaken on (an I believ it is not due to being a journalist, but by living a very comfortable life) Is that democracy is not just mainatained at the ballot box. Democratic values have always had to be fought for in various ways. On the strreet, at the work place, in the courts,,

Voting comes as a rsult of democracy, but it does not maintain it. AFter all at the point olf the election our choices are limited. 

There will always be people who believ the rules do not apply to them, who want more than others, and who want to decide for opthers. They will always chip away or prevent the people from trying to run things.  One of the main tatics these people do, in order to prevent the people from running things is to divide the people and they use fear to do so. Racism, religious interolerence (fear the muslim,) homophobia, anti-immigrant, in genral fear the other they say, they want to kill you or destroy you, your familiy and your culture. 

In Quebec the traditional groups that have been scapegoat by those against democracy are anglos, immigrants, and First Nations.  What the election of NDP MPs last year, the Occupy movement and the Student strike, QUebecers have shown that they will not be fooled by people who want to blame anglos or the rest of Canada for holding them done.  This is a huge developement that the 1% fear.

Street demonstrations and strikes are tools used to promote democracy. To work  and to be substained they need to be focused, and not diverted from things such as racism and fear of the other.  I believ that Canada duie to many issues is the western copuntry least likely to be dragged done by anti immigrant and homophobia. What has dragged us down is the linguistic divide and that it  has been used to tear apart evryday regular people, who have a lot more in common with each other than they do with people who have hundreds of millons of dollars.

This weekend's events indicate that the crisis will continue.  Sixty-nine protesters were arrested Saturday night and 300 Sunday night.  Today, the CLASSE has announced that it will not respect Bill 78 calling it a threat to democracy.

This time I agree with them. 

The right to free assembly is being constricted for the next year.  That is a threat to democracy that, for me, calls for protests.  While I disagreed strongly with the students' defiance of the law when they started their protests, I see the situation as being much changed with Bill 78.  I'm just not sure of the best way now.  A lot of letter writing and squawking to let the government know what the people want?  But that is what helped the government (Charest in Quebec with Bill 78 and Tremblay in Montreal with his by-law against wearing masks in illegal assemblies) to pass their laws of last week: the people wanted the student nuisance stopped.  Civil disobedience?  Violence? No, I hope not. Wait for the next election to be called before the end of 2013?  Maybe the Estates General that the students called for at one point?

well, we're all singing from the same hymnbook.

Does either of you know what de souza is doing? About the time I retired, he had become a powerful figure at Montreal city hall, then becamse mayor of St. Laurent. I knew him very well for some years before he broke into politics. But i've lost touch with him. And I have a suspicion we now think in different worlds.

Bll 78 has been a real mistake.    It has turned the strike into something much bigger. This weekend on Saturday Night LIver a Montreal band was on, and they were wearing the REd Square of the stuent strikers.

ALos at the Cannes Film Festival, most of the Quebec movies stars are  wearing the red squares.

PLus if the trade unions or other groups pay for lawyers, which I expect them to do so, an injunction will put the law on hold. This will show others tht Charest is vunerable. WHich will provoke more axctions against the government.

Bill 78 is, like all of the Bills lately, very poorly researched and knee-jerk. This is going to cost a fortune. You will have to let the police know if you are having more than 50 wedding guests leaving the venue at the same time now.

I am not so sure if it is just poorly researched, it displays a basic lack of understanding or caring  of how a democracy works. Originally the limit on public gatherings was lifted from 10 to 50. Howevr I guess if your boy scout troop, or your church wants to have a picnic this JUne than you are out of luck.

I expect this law to be struck down by the courts or we will see even bigger demonstartion and more violence.   Expect the tourism industry to go into a crisis.

A freiend  in the gay Village in MOntral are telling me that tourism has collapsed. Usually Victorria Day weekend is the first big weekend of the summer,   This year it did not happen, with people staying away from Montreal, due to what my friend called exargerated accounts of the violence.

This new law targets demonstrations ("manifestations, in French").  Unless wedding parties, boy scouts, church picnickers are demonstrating, in a place accessible to the public, then I do not believe that they come under the scope of this law.  

Not sure how the Fête nationale parade and the Canada Day parade will be classified, maybe the behaviour of the participants will be the deciding factor.  I haven't heard legal experts discuss these issues yet.  I only have a draft of the bill to look at - haven't found the final text yet.

Alex, you're right about business suffering.  People are being advised not to take their cars downtown during the demonstration today and especially during the evening demonstration.  So, often they don't go if they have any choice.  If you work downtown, though, you still go downtown.

From my understanding it is up to the descretion of the police if the law is being obeyed. However in other countries that curtail public demonstration, things like funerals, weddings etc turn into an opporutunity to demonstrate.  

Anyways I believ this law will be struck down. Hazve you heard of anyone going to the courts to ask for an injunction aagaints the law being implemented before the courts can have a full hearing into it's legality.

I would expect that if it is not stuck down, than people will use the fete national, and Canada as an excuse to demostrate against the law.

DOes anyone know if CJAD or any other english language media going to be covering the demonstration this after noon.  The Gazette says they are expecting 10,00 of people to march in open defiance of the law.   If tens of thousands do show up, I wonder how the police are going to be abale to arrest evrybody.   

IIf there is violnece today, I also wonder how the rest of the city will react, if they call in the army to help out for the rest of the week and months to come.

It is a good thing that the hockey season is over. If one wants to see a lot of violence, hockey fans are in a class of their own.  Ironically this law would exclude them, as they are not demonstrating. 

It's that "discretionary" component that I have the most concern about. Looks like a pretty slippery slope. At whose discretion? On whose orders?

It is always the police person decision.

Howevr last night someone from higher up in the force must have told them to lay off, becasue they arrested no one at an illegal demonstration.  

I think the polic must be making all sorts of calculations, because technically everyone at the demonstations is breaking the law, and they do not have the ability, or the jails to arrest thousands. (Unless the army gets involved) 

Here is a link to the Radio Canada feed of the demonstration this afternoon in MOntreal, I am not aware of any english language life coverage.

http://www.radio-canada.ca/nouvelles/societe/2012/05/22/003-manifestation-jour-100.shtml

 The second video is the link to the raw and live feed, no commentary.

CJAD has sent at least a couple of reporters out to cover this afternoon's two demonstrations but their regular programming continues so only breaking news and regular newscasts be will be broadcast.

The student unions are looking for ways to fight in the courts and may have a deposition ready for this Friday.  They are still figuring out what they can do and what they can afford.

Two of the unions say they plan to operate within the law.  CLASSE says it will not respect the law and has not filed an itinerary for its demonstration.

Alex, with your connections, do you have a copy of the law as enacted with regulations if applicable, preferably in both languages (just a small request!) ?    I wonder how the riots that accompany the hockey playoffs would not fall under this law, yet I cannot see that a wedding would except that a wedding pretty much stays in an area that the public does not have access to e.g. "by invitation only" and the hockey riots are out on the streets.  This is where the law and common sense do not always coincide.  There must have been some analyses made and guidelines issued.

I do not have a copy of the law, but it is likely on the net.

The way I see it a celebration after a hockey game is not a demononstration.  The point being that I do not know how a police person sees as  the difference between a celebration, or a demonstartion.   From my point of the view, a demo is politcial in nature and  has demands.  

Howevr the hockey riot analogy also points out that we already have laws that govern violent behaviour and other illegal activities. It does not mater if they take place in a political demonstration or in a celebration such as a hockey game victory.    Thus the only thing this new law does in my opinion is to make political action, free speech, and the right to peaceful assembly illegal.

Evrything else the governement says this law is meant to stop, is already illegal, and the student groups have already said that they are against these other activities., violense and vandelism.

Photos from the demo.

Here is the ENglsih language version of Bill 78.. It is a PDF File.'

http://www.assnat.qc.ca/Media/Process.aspx?MediaId=ANQ.Vigie.Bll.Documen...

Two different photos of demonstartors in masks. Of course one is using a tummy to hide it's idenity. ( Besides Bill 78 the Montreal City council made demonstarting in masks illegal, as well the Federal tories want to do the same.

They both look scary to me 

If the police say it's a demonstration, then it's a demonstration even if it's a sunday school picnic. Once you start passing laws like that, you're heading into the police state.

I've been arguing for some time that this demonstration is far more important than we can realize and, certainly,  press comment on it has been abysmal.

This is a mass rising against a long history of corruption in govenment, against control by big business. the government's only response is repressionl Of course. The politicians can't do what the demonstrators want. They don't answer to the demonstators. They answer only to the corporations which, at this point, seem quite intertwined with conventional organized crime.

Montreal is just part of a reaction to a collapse of capitalism. it has collapsed And the people who caused it to collapse were not the poor or the lazy. It was the major capitalists who effectively seized political power when they had no right to take - and no ability to use it with intelligence.

Historically, the west got rich by robbing the rest ofo the world. that's een the story of the last 500 years. But it's over. We don't win wars the old easy way. Even Harper has figured that out. The West is trying to keep the old way alive with force. It's not working.

Meanwhile, capitalists pushed for free trade to escape regulation, and have better access to cheap labour. That was stupid, too, because they destroyed their home markets.

The Montreal demonstrations are not a solution. What they are is a reognition by far too few people and far too late of what our economic leadership has done.

At this point, the only possible response of the state is repression. That's why the US has effectively become a police state. Its police forces have been militarized, and its army permanently maintains combat troops within the US.

The bubble has yet to burst. The corruption in the Quebec government is going to destroy Charest -and it may take a good deal out of Harper. We have ignored stunning examples of greed corruption, neglect, short sightedness in Canada, the US, and Britain. And our taxes have fed corruption in most of the world.

Now, all the pigeons come home to roost the quebec inquirty  into the construction business (which will almost certainly discover mafia connections), the recession,, the wage gap, the demonstrations and the repression, and all at the same time. 

I am shocked at how often people including myself forget that democracy is always something that people have to fight for.

No matter what party or system you have, there will always be people who corrupt it for there own purposes, to raise themselves up.  They are always the same types, only good at working the system to better themselves. 

Everything from the Proetstant Reformation to the Quiet Revolution gets corrupted. (Charest heads the same party that Lesage did in 1962) 

All reforms movements end up corrupted in a generation or two, and it takes outsiders to fight back.

Actually the Harpers Conservatives have even betrayed both conservative and Reform priniples and have gone straight to corruption.

Reports say that between 100,000 to 250,000 people particpated in the student march today. Credit is being given to Jean Charest.

Usually it takes weeks to organise a demo pf this size. this one was done in response to a Bill 78 being adopted, just last friday. And the subsequent arrest of over 500 people this weekend. We shall see what comes next.

What will come next, I expect, will be more repression.

Meanwhile, the fat might well be in the fire. There is a profound cause of this. Capitalists, the big time ones, have destroyed capitalism, itself, and in the process have destroyed democracy. That's why this has spread so far to the US and Europe.

It's not revolutionaries who cause revolutions. it's greedy and corrupt politicians and big business.

News of the Quebec "riots" has reached the Australian press.......

It seems to me that we're so wedded to the idea of a democratic government, we still aren't really getting it that governments don't govern,  - big corporations and their obscenely wealthy owners and top executives are now so powerful that "the government" works for their interests.

Thus, the real power is in the hands of the wealthy and the big corporations - so appealing to change through the government is ineffective, IMO.

That's why what we're looking at is no longer a protest. this is a revolution. Charest knows that, and his bosses know it. Expect much more violent repression

This is not a language or a nationalist issue. This is about fundamental human rights. I can see the distinction quite clearly. during the separatist years, I was on the provincial anglo rights provincial executive for over a dozen years, including stints as vice-president and as chairman. This is not a revival of any of that - though the language warriors will surely try to crash the party.

Charest cannot come to a compromise discussion. The protest is for humean rights and for democracy. He cannot allow either of those to happen.

This is not, I suppose, a revolution yet. But what it wants can only be achieved by revolution because those in power will not allow it to happen in any other way.

This goes way beyond Quebec. We are at a turning point in world history, one forced on us by the recession.

Mind you, I would prefer not to live during a turning point in world history.

It's anybody's guess how this will turn out.

Somebody will bleat churchill's comment that a flawed democracy is still the better form of government. Trouble is we don't have a democracy of any kind. It's not just flawed. It's been destroyed.

Over 660 people arrested last night, yet tonight's demonstration is not any smaller. In fact more non students are comng out to support the students. With people tuning out to demonstrate in dozens of cities and town throughout Quebec.  This is just continuing to grow.

Video http://www.radio-canada.ca/nouvelles/societe/2012/05/24/004-etudiants-manifestation-nocturne.shtml

Charest is between a rock and a hard place.  His new law has backfired and has increased support for the students.  New talks have started, but he says evrything is on the table except tuition fees. However the only thing the students believ that they can deal with are the tuition fees. 

If Charest backs down, than it is sure his business backers or his party will revolt and force him out of office. If he does not back down than nothing will be resolved and the strike will continue intil AUgust.  At that point this years Secondary 5 students   and there parents will be knocking on the doors to attend their first year of CEGEP. Does Charest than refuse them admittance, or does he enrage the students by expelling one year of students to make room for the Secondary 5 students. If he does that than who does he expell, which year 1st or 2 or 3rd year CEGEP students.