its obviously a regional thing, because when i lived in saskatchewan, it was a provincial holiday... no school etc.  i still remember as a child waiting for that 11:11 moment when i could hear the guns fire off the 21 gun salute from my front door.

i was amazed when i move to ontario, and today is a day pretty much like any other, except the stores don't open until about 12:30.  my kids go to school, but they have a remembrance day service which is actually quite well done.  my husband has the day off, but thats only because he is a federal gov't worker... everyone else headed off to work today the same as any other day.

this is OTTAWA... its amazing to me how glossed over remembrance day is here.

just as a note:   today it looks like the sun will be out, so the sun will shine on the headstone of the unknown soldier today at 11:11 in the national war museum.  i may just have to go and see that, it only happens once a year.

It is one of those iffy holidays in Sask. Kids have no school; busses don't run, no newspaper. and Government offices are down. On the other hand, most stores are open and it is always on the 11th, be it a Monday or a Sunday.

the snowbirds just flew over my house... its 10:52.  they are a little early.

just came from the ceremony f or the community. It was held in the school. The gymn was packed, with many there as community groups - firemen, RCMP, ambulance drivers, brownies, emergency measures, clergy, cadets and, of course, veterans. That community element was powerful. One would have needed a heart of densest granite not to be moved.

graeme

Hmm, your all ahead of me. It's only 9:28 here...

We take pride in rememberance day here.  We have a lot of families who were personally connected to war.  It's not so much of a regional thing as a "I know someone who's uncle fought in korea and that is good enough for me.".  If you'll allow me to brag, it's one thing i'm proud of up here.  We are such a tight-knit family of people in our northern communities, that even when we have no knowledge of war, or of family tragity we still honour and respect the fallen.

Prayer for the fallen:

Glory be to You Oh Allah, and praise be to You, and blessed is Your name, and exalted is Your Majesty, and there is none to be served besides You.

O Allah! shower Your mercy upon Muhammad and the followers of Muhammad , as You showered Your mercy upon Ibrahim and the followers of Ibrahim. Behold, Your are Praiseworthy, Glorious.

Oh Allah! Shower Your blessing upon Muhammad , and the followers of Muhammad as You showered Your blessings upon Ibrahim and the followers of Ibrahim. Behold, You are Praiseworthy, Glorious.

Oh Allah! Forgive those of us that are alive and those of us that are dead; those of us that are present and those of us who are absent; those of us who are young and those of us who are adults; our males and our females. Oh Allah! Whomsoever You keep alive, let him live as a follower of Islam and whomsoever You cause to die, let him die a Believer.

Oh Allah, let all those who strive with might and main in the cause of a peaceful world, be in your hands.

Ameen.

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

The Recruiting Sergeant

Two recruiting sergeants came to the CLB,
For the sons of the merchants to join the Blue Puttees;
So all hands enlisted, five hundred young men,
Enlist, you Newfoundlanders, and come follow me.

They crossed the broad Atlantic in the brave Florizel,
On the sands of Suvla, they entered into hell;
And on those bloody beaches, the first of them fell,
Enlist, you Newfoundlanders, and come follow me.

And it's over the mountains and over the sea,
Come, brave Newfoundlanders, and join The Blue Puttees;
You'll fight the Hun in Flanders, and at Galipoli,
Enlist, you Newfoundlanders, and come follow me.

The call came from London for the last July drive,
"To the trenches with the Regiment, prepare yourselves to die."
The roll call next morning, just a handful survived,
Enlist, you Newfoundlanders, and come follow me.

And it's over the mountains and over the sea,
Come, brave Newfoundlanders, and join The Blue Puttees;
You'll fight the Hun in Flanders, and at Galipoli,
Enlist, you Newfoundlanders, and come follow me.

The store men on Water Street still cry for the day,
When the pride of their city, went marching away;
A thousand men slaughtered, to hear the King say,
Enlist, you Newfoundlanders, and come follow me.

So it's over the mountains and over the sea,
Come, brave Newfoundlanders, and join The Blue Puttees;
You'll fight the Hun in Flanders, and at Galipoli,
Enlist, you Newfoundlanders, and come follow me.

So it's over the mountains and over the sea,
Come, brave Newfoundlanders, and join The Blue Puttees;
You'll fight the Hun in Flanders, and at Galipoli,
Enlist, you Newfoundlanders, and come follow me.
Enlist, you Newfoundlanders, and come follow me.

####.... Bob Hallett of Great Big Sea ....####

Like The_Ominissiah, I was struck by the connection of remembrance with community down here.

I had not before seen that poem (song?) about the Newfoundland Regiment. It reminded me, though, of my one brush with greatness in my life. As a grade 8 boy in north end montreal, My Geography teacher was a big man named Art Scammell. When in a good mood, he would sing to us a song he wrote as a fourteen year old in Newfoundland. It was called "The Squid Jiggin' Ground". And if you have to ask who Art Scammell was and what "The Squid Jiggin' Ground" is, I can only hang my head in sorrow.

graeme

Well, the service is well over, it was well.  I got to lay a wreath (on the fly because my school didn't organize anyone to lay it so I jumped up and did it :s).

Again, no pipes this year...

Hopefully i'll be able to remedy that myself next year ;)

Scotland the Brave just isn't the same on the piano...:(

Peace be to the fallen, assalaam alaiykum

-Omni

For the last two years I have been the poppy chairman of the Legion in this Ontario town of 15,000. I have noticed a very real resurgence of awareness and 'remembrance' especially over the last half dozen years. One of the factors involved, and likely the most important one, is the presence of our soldiers in a combat role in Afghanistan. The public is shocked and sympathetic when our young men and women come home in steel caskets or wounded in body or in mind or in both. The media has done a wonderful job in covering these events. The second factor is the public realization that our old vets are rapidly disappearing. We have only one left from WWI and those of WWII are well into their eighties. Our local schools and media have done a wonderful job of telling their stories. Coupled with this has been the public celebration of many historic anniversaries like D-Day, VE-Day and the WWI Armistice.

oops - that raises my other brush with greatness.

about 26 years ago, I was the speaker at a Robert Burns Dinner. One of the guests was a wee, scottish journalist, and he was the man who wrote the words for Scotland the Brave.

After the dinner, I went to the washroom. He followed me in, and said, "I watched you across the room. I thought, I must meet this man...."

Now, these are not really words one wants to hear from a man who has followed you into the washroom. But his motives were pure - in a way.

This idol of Scotland, the author of its hugely popular and patriotic song, was desperate to emigrate to Canada. And he wanted me to help him find a job in journalism.

graeme

I find I am not really able to talk about how I feel about these issues at this point in history.  But I am glad that so many were able to have an experience that was so moving for them.

There were 5000+ gathered at an arena in Moncton. That would be the equivalent of over a hundred thousand in toronto.

But i confess to a feeling of unease at these ceremonies. They make the soldiers into something they were not, and in the process come close to glorifying war. I don't think, for example, the national flag should be in the church.

At all the ceremonies, there were people wearing support our troops badges, a code term for - support them in Afghanistan, whereas i think we should have supported them by not sending them in the first place.

Then you get the image of them going out willingly to defend our freedom. Come on. The average education of a Canadian soldier in WW2 was grade 9, and  you reach that average only by lumping in the officers. The age that I saw so often on the crosses in Europe and Hong Kong was in the teens. They had very little understanding of what they were going to fight for. You also find that recruitment was popular at the start of the war when there were no other jobs. it drops off sharply as the war industries get going. Today, military enlistment is highest among the relatively poor, and highest in those parts of Canada which, like the maritimes, have had the fewest work opportunities.

I heard one speaker rhapsodizing about how we had to go to war to help the Jews of Europe. bullshit. At the time, Canada was almost as anti-semitic as Germany. In fact, mackenzie king consistently refused to allow German Jews into Canada as refugees in the 1930s and 40s. He even, at the height of the war, refused to let in 200 Jewish refugee children, though he knew what would happen to them when he turned them back. And he did it for purely political reasons - he knew how strong anti-semitims in Canada was. 

And despite the political bilge, soldiers in Afghanistan today are not defending our freedom, not in any sense.

We owe the veterans a lot for what many of them went through. We do not pay that debt by glorifying war and encouraging more of our children to go through the same experience.

graeme

graeme

You are quite right in what you have said about age level and educational level. However given the sort of culture from which they emerged it is not hard to understand what they are today. I have never met a combat vet who was anything other than a good citizen, a gentleman and anti-war.

We need more combat vets to speak up.  When people hear form people who have been there that war=not smart idea.  Maybe people will take it to heart, as opposed to some hippie on the streets.

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

in picking up on JRT's pont, and excellent one, I think, I remember a man I met at a senante hearing. This was t he one about the film series, the valour and the horror. it infuriated leading figures in the legion who had the muscles to get a senate hearing set up into the matter. I went to the hearinig to testify that it was idiocy to set up a senate committee to get at the truth of history - particularly when the committee was picked to ensure that all would criticize the films.

There i met a veteran who had just about the worst possible war. He had been captured at Hong Kong to spend years of captivity in the most dreadful conditions one could endure, and still live.

He certainly had a story to tell, and he had appeared in the film to tell it. It was the only chance he had ever had to relieve some of the burden of those years. I spoke to him just after he testified to the senate committee. He was angry, and close to tears. They had minimized everything he said, and brushed him off. They didn't care about him or the part of the film that dealt with him. All they cared about was the witch hunt they had been set up to carry out.

graeme 

graeme, i am interested why you say that the flag should not be in the church.  church and state cannot be separated - what we profess to believe and how to apply the gospel message during our Sunday worship services must surely be consistent.

i do not believe that the remembrance day services are designed to glorify war, the only glory is what happens when you take the "l" out of glory and the men and women who went to and still go to war know it.  they want us to know the devistation that happens in peoples lives and want us to strive for peace, preferably by means other than armed conflict.

i remember as a boy in small town NS having to attend the Remembrance Day service in our official scout uniform - short pants and sleeves rolled up - some days it was bloody cold (for us.)  the comments from our leaders (who were all x servicemen) was - tough, you can do it for 20 minutes or so, they did it for 4 years and it was hell.  i never forgot message.

4chun8 not to have been in an active war torn area.

I'll begin with a warning. I have just received a wondermail that is an obvious scam. you know, beautiful young girl, foreign country, ten million dollars, can I put it in bank for her, she will come over later, etc... So watch for it.

4chun8, your image of boy scouts keeping a stiff upper lip on a church parade brought back many a memory.

I agree that one should act politically in a way consistent with one's religious beliefs. But that does not make either the church or the state an associate of one with the other. For the same reason, I would object to religious symbols in state building - as they used to be in, say, Quebec courts. Indeed, the crucifix was a standard fixture in every Quebec government office.

The presence of the flag in church suggests an alliance between church and state, with the church encouraging allegiance to the flag. And what is wrong with that? Well, Hitler's Germany had churches that encouraged allegiance to the flag. Cardinal Spellman blessed bombs that were dropped on cuba.

YOu cannot have absolute allegiance to both god and man. When it comes to man and man's institutions, the allegiance always has to be critical and conditional on man's institution acting in a way we feel consisten with our faith.

I lik e the scouts, the legion and other community groups being in the church. It greatly enriches it for everybody. But I get very nervous about the church being in any way an agent of the state.

graeme

Graeme:  You are right to separate church and state in this way - the two are most often at different ends of the specrtum.  My conceren is that we often profess one lifestyle during the worship service but then walk out of the service leaving it all behind.  Perhaps the presence flag can remind us that what we say in church must be carried out into the wider world. 

In that regard, the church must always be part of the state in so far as to be a very loyal and critical opposition to that which goes against the norms of love, respect, and caring for our fellow citizens and the environment. 

Regarding the likes of Cardinal Spellman, I am not so sure that his actions follow the Gospel message that I learned from Jesus' teachings - perhaps he has a different translation than I do.

again, 4chun8 to be in a country where such conversations can take place.

I read The Bible as a very practical body of the development of our wisdom. For that reason, I don't see the commandment warning us against "other" gods as simply the pettishness of an excessively jealous God.

We can have, as a very practical matter, only one god to whom we devote our loyalty. Once you put in another god, that necessarily takes some loyalty away from the other. We cannot, therefore, ascribe godlike qualities to man made creations - whether a state or an economic system or a secular organization.

There is another, practical reason why we cannot. Man made systems invariably will be fallible, and if we put our trust in anything fallible we will not see its failures until it is so advanced it fails us absolutely. It is possible that some people who put their faith in the golden calf of the free market my be beginning to see that.

I worry about the idea of being loyal to the state. It sounds good. But Christians have done some terrible things out of being loyal to the state as well as to the church. Hitler's Germany was a largely Christian state. The United States or presidents Kenney to Bush 1 that killed 200,000 indigenous people in Guatemala, whole families tortured and butchered, was a Christian state.

We are loyal to the state only when its behaviour is consistent in our view with our faith. To bring the paraphernalia of the state into the sanctuary runs a severe risk of blurring that line.

I suspect we largely agree on this, so our debate becomes a worrying over the precise meaning of words.

graeme

On that we can agree, extracting the precise meaning of a word will forever keep a conversation going and the loss of many trees in the printing of justification of those definitions - witness the millions of texts simply trying to define Jesus' message, which most probably was interpreted and written by others at least 20 (Paul) to 70 (John) years after jesus' death.

such discussion has clearly opened the connection between state and church.  I believe that some of what you are saying is the difficulty of mixing state and church comes from proof-texting, taking a part/sentence/phrase from a text and using it for your interpretation without regard to the meaning of the whole document.  This is done all the time and it drives me batty.  When the Gospels are read in totality and understood in that light then any "state" that claims to be Christian must abide in that total understanding - that we call ourselves a Christian state is a falicy because we do not put into practice what we profess.  Therein lies the rub - we really are not a Christian state in our living!!!!

You make a good argument!

We agree. And I must the quoters of isolated passages drive me batty, too.

graeme

excellent use of the term "the rub"

+10 to your vocabulary.

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni