Your viewpoint will get little sympathy in some parts of the world, and quite possibly, some parts of Toronto.

Female member of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,754250,00.html

Good luck on your walk - I'd join you if I weren't several thousand kilometres away.

Who decides what "dressing  like a slut" means? If a woman's lower legs can be seen, is she a slut? If you can see her nose" If she wears a bathing suit?

Women of the highest social class in Canada in the late nineteenth century commonly wore falsies and bustles. Were they all sluts?

Once a man defines a woman as a slut, is he entitled to attack her?

Are there rules for men who wear their pants low? Who wear thongs at the beach with great bellies hanging over them?

Does any society require men to cover their faces? Is a man who wears shorts just begging to be sexually assaulted?

Actually, I agree with the first part of the officer's statement. Women should not be dressing "like sluts." I would also include of course that men also should be dressing with modesty.

At any rate, I'm with you in spirit. In reality I'll be home writing a History paper.

 I suppose the same police also think that people should wear bullet proof vests to avoid dying from being shot.

My first instinct to ridicule the Toronto cop.   But then part of me wonders, is is wrong to try to protect our daughters from predatory men?

Predatory men are a fact of life.  I was born in 1951, well before the current wave of anxiety over child-molesters and what-not developed.  But my mother was a reader of true crime (a lawyer in fact) and she was warned me vey young about never, never letting a man lure me away with promises like candy.    That is standard now, but it was not in the early 1950's.

During the sixties and seventies there was fad for hitch-hiking.  I once hitch-hiked alone and got a ride with a man who did not seem to want to let me out.  I jumped out at a red light.  I was lucky, I escaped. How foolish I (and many other girls) were to have hitch-hiked!

I have also come to realize that many of the men guarding their daughters and covering them up in Muslim are countries are trying to protect their daughters.  Society would consider them negligent fathers not to do so.

There is such a thing as engaging in high risk behavior. Dressing like a 'slut' would probably qualify. Doing so doesn't mean you deserve to be attacked and in an ideal world it would not increase the likelyhood of being attacked. But this is not an ideal world.

Oh, this slutwalk is a NEAT IDEA -- it is a good example of proper behaviour when people in our countries are offended, instead of giving in to our animal natures and mobbing and hurting and killing people.  Or getting someone fired or reprimanded.

Exactly.  Know thyself, know the environment one is in, know that any statement that anyone else says aboot oneself is not aboot oneself but aboot the person's experience with you and know that one's experience doesn't mean that it will automatically must be someone else's experience.

As well as whites should avoid walking in certain areas at certain times to avoid being mugged or killed?

I wish that I had gone, or had been able to go, especially reading some of the comments.

When do women quit being blamed for being the victims, in fact, when does anyone quit being blamed for being a victim.

hmm...let me think.

one shouldn't live alone

one shouldn't go out at night

one shouldn't drive your car alone

one shouldn't drink in a bar alone

one shouldn't go out on a date with a guy alone

one shouldn't camp on one's own

one shouldn't go on a hike alone

one shouldn't walk alone at night

one shouldn't...

one shouldn't...

all of the above are things that I have been told at sometime about being alone.  I could go on for many pages of what I shouldn't do.....all of which were based on a very random probability of hurt....a lot of paranoia...and a lack of understanding re people who hurt others.

I am sure the 80yr woman who is assualted and raped was dressing like a slut...sigh

fear of the unknown stops us from doing things....there is such a low probability and in most cases the assault occur based on random factors.

I am thankful to those who recognize it and marched.

If every woman dressed neck to ankles in 5 layers, a predator would look for the one missing a button.

If every woman walked around naked, a predator would look for the one with a tattoo on her thigh.

It's got nothing to do with how a woman dresses, but those who would like to have us go back to a male dominated society would like to have you think so.

I have heard that curfews for women to prevent them from being out alone after dark would protect them from sexual assault by men.  Wouldn't it make more sense to have curfews for the men who are the ones committing the assaults?  

Namaste.

I like sincerely like your empathy here :3

Looks like a great turnout -

but I've lost my video embedding skills (although it shows on preview!)   here's a link ...

I suppose on one hand, we can thank this (ignorant) cop for mobilizing people (again!) on this issue and creating lots of discussion!

Yeah, the internet is SO NEAT -- from a small room of 20 students hearing 1 police officer to something BIGGER :3

I'm glad all those sluts turned out (so many SIGNS...from rape is sex to rape is hate...good thing Tony the Rapist Tiger wasn't there...)

If this were the US, there'd be talk aboot conceal & carry permits :3

Inanawhimsey, I think you are hinting this was overblown.

Reading upon it, it does indicate the police officer was disciplined, etc...however, here's the question.

This is an officer who is trained to do safety training at a university....and he is thinking that it has to do with what you are wearing, ie dressing like a slut.

That tells us a few things.

1.  there is an underlying issue which is not isolated to one guy.

2.  the reaction within society and on this thread even, indicates we haven't come that far since the 70's. 

Women and men can dress however the hell they want, and thankfully, very few care what you think about the matter.

Some interesting comments on this link:

So are you blaming the woman in this case for dressing like a slut???

chansen,

Women and men can dress however the hell they want, and thankfully, very few care what you think about the matter.

somegalfromcanada,

Women and men can dress however the hell they want, and thankfully, very few care what you think about the matter.

I'm confused as to why you said that - I never actually posted my opinion on the subject. I was simply asking for clarification from Beshpin.

So, is the officer saying that:

1. Women should dress conservatively in order to increase the likelihood that predatory men will target someone else instead of them.

2. Women should dress conservatively to reduce the likelihood that an otherwise non-predatory man will decide to commit rape (against them).

If it is #1, then why is a police officer bothering to say it?  Crime will not be reduced in this case.

If it is #2, then our men are not learning even the rudiments of self-control, and need to be kept under surveilance.

This is no different from the Arab-Islamic rationale for keeping all female skin under cover - basically, that men are weak.  Are we, really?

 I have so many problems with how the statement was said beyond the implications of the statement (assuming the quote is correct).  

I have a problem with 'dressing like a slut'.  What does a slut wear?  There are some women who could be consider sluts by some (for example, prostitutes) who wear your average jeans and shirt, nothing super revealing.  A better phrase would be 'dressing in a slutty manner'.

The statement is also made in a manner to imply a certain amount of blame or at least responsibility.  Rather than saying if you do A, then you are more likely to be a victim, a better way of saying it is if you do B you are less likely to be victimized.  Similar meanings, but very different tones.  I would have much less of a problem if the office said something like "You may be able to reduce your chances of being attacked if you dress in a conservative manner".  Yes, it's a similar meaning but I think it's less insulting, and doesn't have the same connotation of blaming the victim.  Rather than blame, why not make the statement more about empowering someone.

Finally, I really don't know how much clothing affects the probability that someone would be attacked.  I heard about someone who looked into it (I think it might have even been inspired by the comment) and he couldn't find any information.  He did get blasted by a bunch of people just for asking the question even though he wasn't even suggesting that women should or should not dress in a certain way.

I doubt that how someone dresses makes a big difference, especially for a random attack.  *If* it does make a difference, my best guess is it would be more for date rape.  I could also guess it might make a difference in the amount of help a victim might be able to get during an attack, as well as support afterwards (especially by people such as the police who made the statement).

 To the point someone raise about are there any cultures that make men cover their faces.

Yes, the Tuareag Muslims in North Africa have their men cover their faces.  And women are allowed a large amount of sexual freedom.

I agree with the people who have been saying that a woman can dress however she wants.  If she dresses down, there still would be those people who would seek to attack her.  It's the attackers who should be blamed and punished, not the victims.

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

Many times, police have failed to acknowledge the times that prostitutes go missing. I wonder if that is because there really is an underlying reasoning that "these women were asking for it?" and therefore they're expendable and unworthy of protection.

I've always heard that it's not the way a woman dresses that causes a rapist (etc....) to target someone, but that they are more likely to "choose" someone that appears vulnerable, isolated and often it's at random and coincides with the perpetrators rage.

As a mother of a 20 year old university student i am torn on this.

Yes I agree whole heartedly that people can dress as they choose.  Dressing is an expression of your personality.  We  change our mode of dress for the occasion.  GOing to a club to party and dance?  that is different that going to class or to the gym or to work in the garden.

And what we wear is intended to send a message.  If i dress in what i consider my "sexy" dress, with my cool electric blue shoes, i know that i am sending a "look at me, i feel sexy" message.

And that is where I feel torn.  I know that a rapist will attack anyone and that it isn't sex, it is power.  and yet i also know that there are situations to avoid.  Dark alleys, being alone.  Men avoid these places too. 

 i  also caution my daughter to be aware of the message her clothes send.  And I know that when she leaves a club at 3 am after drinking and dancing she is in a group and is cautious.  As are her male friends.  Only last summer  we saw two men gunned down on a street late at night by who knows who.

and that is the dilemma. 

Yes she or I can dress as i wish.  But it sends a mesage and there are dangerous areas of all cities.

So if you are in a dnagerous area and attacked, while it isn't your fault were you perhaps not being sensible???

exactly, rape is about power.  one in three women are raped or sexually assaulted worldwide.  i'm sure they are not all "sluts just asking for it".  a woman should be allowed to wear whatever they chose without worry about harm.  it's like a police officer should not expect to be shot or hurt because the occupation they chose has them "just asking for it".  i think men have a hard time understanding the act of sex and the VIOLATION of rape.  the fact that this officer, who should be serving and protecting, has such bias is scary, but sadly, not alarming.  women still have a long way to go to lose their "eve" image.

once again, power, not dress.  men and women alike can be unsensible in the decisions we make and "asking for it".  it happens all the time.  we don't tend to empower victims for whatever reason(s).    what was he thinking carrying all that money in his wallet?  what were they thinking allowing their child to go to the bathroom alone?  what was she thinking jogging through the park at that hour?  the thing that bothers me the most is that a police officer should be serving and protecting and this bias could very well be to the victims dismay a real road block in seeing justice served. 

i can't even watch the whole piece of video i posted.  it makes me want to vomit!

No, he's bleaming her for ovulating.

Seriously though. I read the same study. It's possible there might be a correlation, although I would tend to have my doubts. The woman would have to be in close proximity to her attacker for a considerable length of time. Plus it's generally accepted that rape is rarely about sex.

However, it should be easy enough to test the idea by finding out how many victims of rape were ovulating at the time.

i wonder how many men are ovulating in jails at this moment.  or maybe it's the orange jumpsuits that makes them look mighty purdy!

i wonder if i would get the same slap on the wrist if those "chemicals" caused me to castrate him on the spot. 

You're an exquisite troll sometimes, Beshpin.

Nor will good sense enter into the arguement when some people reduce a complex issue to the ludicrous idea that "it hurts my feelings" is the point.

But it's far easier to resort to slinging ridiculous one-liners, when all you're really interested in is getting attention by being contrary.

Really? You think he's an exquisite troll?

I don't think there's any question he's an attention seeking troll, but my take is that he's actually a very poor one, with no real trolling skills to speak of.

An accomplished troll is one who managed to disrupt conversation without it being obvious he's trollling. With Beshpin, it's painfully obvious.

what about the little boy who lives next door whose parents may have trusted the wrong adult?

what about the woman who was jogging through the park in her sweat pants and sweat shirt?

what about the woman in intensive care in a vegetative state?

what about the "modestly" dressed girl who is slipped the date rape pill in her drink?

what about the woman in rawanda who was just minding her own business in her hut?

I judge a troll by its success, Witch.

sadly, troll or not, many hold his opinion.

Sad indeed.

 I was three years old and probably wearing fuzzy pyjamas. Was it my fault? Should I have dressed differently?

Eastern orthodox: you suggest trying to protect our daughters from sexual assault. You think my Mom didn't try to protect me? My Dad? They did.  Sure in some cultures they "cover up their daughters" in order to help protect them, but do you honestly think that Islamic women never get raped? It's just not true. And it's not about dressing like sluts. statistics show that the most common piece of clothing rapists look for are girls in overalls, why? because they are the fastest thing to undo.

We live in a culture that teaches women what they should be wearing/doing/saying in order to avoid being victimised. How about instead WE TEACH MEN NOT TO RAPE?

Like was said yesterday at the march, in our culture, the majority of men do not rape. However, the majority of men do stay silent. They don't call out their friends for saying innapropriate things towards women, they post idiotic things in online forums about how women shouldn't dress like sluts, and they don't come out and march in solidarity with events like slutwalk. If you're male-identified, WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO STOP RAPE?

96% of women won't report a sexual assault. Why? Because no one will believe them. An extended family member of mine was raped repeatedly by her boss. When  it went to court he was found not-guilty because they didn't believe her. The reasoning was that if she was being raped she wouldn't keep working there. As women we are often forced to stay in violent relationship professional and personal for a number of reasons including but not limited to financial concerns, immigration status, child custody, the list goes on and on.

Waterfall, I can assure you, as a former sex worker, that even if a woman (or man) is exchanging sex for money, they still aren't "asking for it".  Bank tellers don't go to work asking to be shot and killed in a hold up robbery, and sex workers don't go to work asking to be raped and dismembered. We have to stop victim-blaming and start treating the rape culture we live in.

As a community of faith, I believe we are called to stand in solidarity with victims of violence (and remember, men are also the victims of sexual assault). I mean, not only was Jesus friends with those who are often labelled "sluts", but women like Mary Magdalene FUNDED Jesus's ministry (Luke 8). Women, whether we are talking about Mary Magdalene or the UCW have always been the backbone of the United Church. 

I was proud to march yesterday with a fellow seminary student. I can't begin to count the number of women who came up to us and thanked us for being there and for standing in solidarity. Not just as Christian women, but also as women who have been victims of violence aimed at females, queer women, Mothers, and  sex workers.

If you want to stop rape, its simple. STOP RAPING!

A pic of us at the march yesterday:

yfrog.com/h765rctj

i agree with your points femmemomma :)

i brought up the other examples because it doesn't happen to "sluts".  how someone is dressed is just an excuse for the act.  it justifies it somehow.  it gives the offender and excuse and shames the victim.  it's wrong.   we have this perception that it's scantilly clad women out there falling victim.  it happens to 1 in 3 women worldwide.  those are the statistics.  it isn't 1 in 3 scantilly dressed women.

it's discrimination.  it's our shame, not theirs.

femmmomma, I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post, but I was actually pointing out that (or trying to) that this kind of crime is often ignored by police forces when it comes to sex workers. I was NOT claiming they "asked for it", but rather it is more than likely a myth that is perpetuated d/t ignorance.

I am not suggesting the the victim is to blame!  But there are creeps out there and we have to careful, yes, going out at night and driving at night in certain areas.  It is not a case of whose fault it is if something happened, but to try to reduce the odds of being a victim of a creepy guy (who is always the one at fault).   

In this case, the officer's use of the word "slut" was inappropriate, as it does suggest a blame-the-victim.  He should have worded it differently.

 thank you moms fruit cake, waterfall, and eastern orthodox for the clarifications.

Why should he have worded it differently?  Do we know that he meant to communicate something different from the bolded?

How about just eliminating the word "slut" from our vocabulary (including the officer).  It's a word which was created for the sole purpose of demeaning women.  I believe in speaking about women (all women) with respect.  As such the word "slut" has no meaning to me.

TL

The officer may well have been meaning to demean women.  If so, then the problem isn't that a word exists to accurately express that sentiment - the problem is that someone wants to express it in the first place.