That's not an issue if there's no boss.

What?!

Chemgal- like in Germany where they cut people off welfare for not accepting jobs posted by brothels- it's legitimate work, right? The 'don't accept the work that's available, lose your benefits' attitude like they do for other legitimate work opportunities.

And no, they don't have to live with their sexual frustrations if they've at least one hand and/ or mail order sex toys. Oh...you mean if men caught buying street sex and tax money from these clinical practices would go into re-education instead, they would have to learn to live without the right to man-handle a stranger? It's not a human right. Fee or no fee, because he doesn't 'own' her? Boo hoo. You see, it's not a human right, because we have the ability to subdue our amygdalas, to talk sense into ourselves and find alternatives that do no harm, emotional or physical. Your Starbucks vs. brothel example is gut wrenching. So, if feel ups were on the menu next to mocha lattes, you'd see no problem with that basic concept? If we're going to open it up and regulate it as a mainstream service and regular job description with regular taxable income...then, hey! What if restaurants bought sex licences the same way they do liquor licences? Hmm, what if?... You know, not everything, just feel ups- like cafeteria style places only have beer and wine? No? Why not? Does the suggestion hit a nerve? Why? It would be a 'legitimate' service like any other then, right?... Yes? Then you want your daughter to work at a place like that to pay her way through university one day? No? Why- ever not? And if you don't want her to...then why is it okay for somebody else's daughter who comes from tougher circumstances already? It sounds to me more like a glorified consumer caste system in the making, actually in the completion because we're already half way there in our culture- women, especially poor women, are already a lower 'caste'- than a legitimate solution.

I'm sorry that I'm getting you so worked up over this. I know your heart is in the right place, but in terms of reducing exploitation, your ideas aren't workable. Eventually, we have to face the reality that this trade will happen, and that it isn't automatically exploitative (which you won't even acknowledge), and that our best chance to reduce the harm caused by the sex trade is to bring it out of the shadows.

Your example about adding "groping" to cafeteria menus is a red herring because that's the whole point of licences - they are distributed based on set criteria. Not to mention the sanitary concerns of sexual contact with cafeteria staff. Think of the extra hair nets they'd need.

And my daughter? I don't want her to work at a lot of places. But she will make that decision, not me. My job is to make sure she doesn't have to work at a place like that. If I fail, that option is open to her, whether it's legal or not. Making it illegal doesn't magically make the option go away.

I agree we need to bring it out of the shadows for safety- but I don't agree we need to glorify it and pretend it's more okay or more of a mainstream innocuous 'service' than it really is. I think it's going backwards with women's equality- with the facade of real progress- an alpha male driven con job.

umm, i am thinking that if brothels open with male & female sex workers than women & men will both become customers.  The reason that you primarily hear about men being "john"s" is primarily about availabiity and norms.  You start to open it up and things will change.  It won't make it right or wrong, it will just change with some positive and some negative consequences.

i am for legalization in licensed establishments.  That will make it safer for the majority of consumers & providers of service.  There will always be those who are not able to work in those places  due to their state of health or drug use, and they will  stay high risk on the streets (not sure how you protect them).  For them, we may require safe sex sites like we hae safe injection sites.

Chansen- If she finds herself laid off from her job and in the E.I. Line-up someday, and brothels are considered legitimate jobs with legitimate taxable income- unless you or someone else can fully financially support her, if that's the only type of job immediately available, she might have to take a job like that. I wouldn't put it past 'em, politicians and bureaucrats. They like to reduce social program costs and get income tax from working people, afterall - and put their labour market re-entry stats on the books- without prejudice regarding type of employment. Heterosexual men wouldn't likely face the same problem, because I can't see male brothels opening up for women to go to being very popular. If that sounds ridiculous to you, take a closer look at everything you feel about fully legalizing prostitution, because in times of high unemployment, they're sending other career professionals to 'customer service' jobs at convenience stores.

I talked to a bi-sexual guy many years ago- a friend of my old roommate- tho one who worked at the adult toy store- I think that's where she met him- he worked at a massage parlour when we were in our 20's. He made decent money massaging gay men and complained that he never saw any female clients. That was his way of trying to hit on me, actually. Creepy line, come to think of it. It didn't work.

We thought we were so cutting edge and sexually open minded in those days and that was the 90's - but the truth is I, and most women I have ever met wouldn't go to those places for a 'service' at a business, for a fee. Not in a million years. It just isn't done. Not by any women I have ever met. There's not much of a market for it and I can think of several other more worthwhile industries that could benefit society far more, than putting our minds to the task of trying to figure out how to buy and sell even more sex.

I've always had more respect and sympathy for those working in sex work than those paying for it- and my friends are the same. Perhaps because a couple of them have worked in 'jobs' that had much in common with prostitution, if it wasn't 'full on' prostitution. I wouldn't be surprised if every escort in town shopped at the adult costume/ sex toy stores, my roommate had interesting friends in those days, and my other good friend was a stripper.


Now, I am married- and to be honest, there are other expedient options, too, that don't involve others if his 'motivation' slows down before mine for any reason- that option's not even on my radar- like Rev John said, that's been the case since folk had hands- and my open mindedness has closed quite a bit seeing what a soul sapping waste of peoples' gifts, brains, and affront to their dignity those places are. We may have been cutting edge, my girlfriends and I, but i would say that deep down, integrity still trumped libido even for the most 'open' or vulnerable, or rejected, or lonely, or horny, of us- and most women I know wish the same dignity for other women, to be free from exploitation of themselves and others. For all people. With all but a few exceptions, most women don't want to purchase sex. Men want it. Men go. If women wanted it they'd be doing it already, in large numbers, the same way men do.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/aug/17/tanya-gold-stripping

A short article worth reading.

It is very difficult to discuss prostitution with out our personal baggage and with out thinking of all the women who are coerced.

But it isn't going anywhere and in reality i think think there is a place for it in our society.
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I agree that the fear of girls entering into prostitution because they have no options is a real one. But I think a regulated system would provide some protection there.

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If you think of say, a medical office conglomerate. Some times several doctors pool resources and use one space. Numerous docs, several rns, several support staff, X-ray facilities sub contract the space,, labs too....... Kind of a one stop shop

I can almost see that as a brothel type place. A share facility, licensed operators who each have a space, a "shingle” if you will. They pool resources to have perhaps cleaning staff, laundry staff, a space manager......... The same system that say a small plaza might use.

Women and men who choose to work there are safe, they are really independent business people who pay taxes, have legitimate business expenses......

There is a value in prostitution. It provides a needed service to lonely people. Both men and women, hetero and gay.

No I wouldn't want my daughter to do it. And I guess that is where my middle class morality clashes with my attempt to be logical.

I'm not familiar with Germany.  Is that what actually happens?  You also brought up EI.  I know people who used it.  I have never heard of a case where someone came out and said that they were denied because they refused to take a job as a stripper.  If that was the case, it would probably become public very fast.  I don't expect something like that would occur.  Do you honestly think it would?

I really don't have a solution, just some observations. Particularly the fact that we now seem to have become more accepting of various forms of prostitution. It is an industry that is now being sold on a more global basis. We now have more internet access and our entertainment industry continuously crosses the line with regards to using women more as a commondity to be exploited in order to sell something. We've been wooed into believing that resistance is futile, yet none of us wishes it for ourselves or our daughters. We can remove the shame, blame and remove some unsafe conditions from these women by making it legal but should that make it more acceptable? Can't we still work on preventing this choice from becoming a "career choice" in high school? Does this mean I'm a prude? Then so be it. I think we are being brainwashed into complacency. Slavery would have been so much better off if it had been legalized, right? (sarcasm)

I do not condemn these women for being in this line of work either by choice or by being forced, but often the hands of the law are tied. The pimps are back out on the street sometimes hours after being arrested, it's hard to monitor websites (which in this day and age astounds me), and there are extremely powerful people with money and influence involved with the perpetuation of this industry. 

To me prostitution shouldn't be so common as it is now, yes it will always be around, but surely we can continue to work at increasing the options for women and not let our guard down under the guise of legalization?

There are dangers to legalizing somethings also.

It could depending on how ruthless the case worker/ employment officer was.

The brothels posted their jobs in the employment office. It did happen in Germany which is a civilized modern country. I think they fixed the oversight after it was brought to enough attention. In the meantime, people were exploited by a social welfare agency.

I have a question...if it's not objectionable, if it's not exploitative, why would there be any problem posting brothel jobs in unemployment offices? It's because it is- deep down, everyone knows it is.

It's not a needed service, lastpointe. It's a desired one but not a needed one. Chocolate is not a needed product, it's a desired one. In this case, we're talking about human beings as the service and the product. I think we can be more humane than that.

I think if we created a brothel system, then job posting would be likely. However, EI doesn't require you to take any and all jobs so I can't see a scenario where someone would be required to take a job.

Job postings would likely include prostitutes, greeters, cleaners, kitchen help, restaurant help, laundry help, perhaps even drivers if an enterprising place offered pick up and drop off service .l. That would allow them to serve booze without issues.

The more I think about it the more I can see it. Kind of like a boutique hotel. Add in a casino and you would get a lot of business

Submissives, dominatrix, gay partners, s&m......

I worked in the employment counselling field -yes, people are expected to apply for jobs, by E.I. and welfare or risk being cut off. Noone was expected to apply at a stripper bar, no. Many people were expected to apply at Walmart- former engineers, university grads... The government, I believe, recently tightened those E.I. Eligibility rules, too. It's worse now, than it was then. People are expected to look for work they can do if jobs in their field aren't available.

Prostitution theme park. Yay. Our society is really going to hell in a hand basket- and I am not being religious just observant about how disgusting and uncaring we've become in the name of making a buck any which way possible.

Again, the scenario of a stripper is a good one (thanks chemgal).

Just because a stripper position is available, does not mean someone has to take it ot get EI, Kimmio.

Massage is a service. it is not necessary, some people use it, some don't. It is legal. It is also paid for through my benefits.  Again, poor argument Kimmio re the "needed"

Waterfall, please do not presume to indicate what I feel that I would want a relative to do for a job or not.   

Pinga- it happened in GERMANY in the last decade! A real example of what could go wrong. Again, I ask, if it's not objectionable why do you even disbelieve it could happen here? No, it is not a NEEDed service. It is a desired service! Yes, keep them safe- but don't sink into complacency or acceptance over the long term that this is legitimate non-exploitative work! The money hungry alpha male dominated world is chomping at the bit.For God's sake! We can do better than that- to help young girls and women's rights. Re-education and phasing out should be part of the long term vision.

If we allow open brothels, then no one has any right to complain about the role of Burquas in subjugating women. People complain about how oppressive they are- how they keep women down, reduce their place in society- which, if those choice to wear them is removed, I think it is. But some here think prostitution theme parks, more or less, would liberate women. Give me a break. Keep your sex life in your own bedroom and don't try to make it seem okay for women to publically be exploited- meat for sale in a shop window.

I don't really care who thinks they 'need' this service. That's a negation of responsibility to women's rights over the long term. The only good thing about legalizing is safety over the short term with a focus on re-education and work alternatives over the long term. There are options for sexual frustration. There are more worthy interests than sexual fantasy- while a quarter of the world is at war and our environment is deteriorating- we want more SEX! Give us more sex! Please...Buy a toy. That really is an object. There are toy stores full of interesting options. Sex is being way overvalued as a Need and a Right. Yes, it's nice to have, but not a right. Make a friend if what you want is companionship- you can have quality companionship. You don't have to be lonely without sex. People are happy the world over without it. Learn to meditate. Get a pet.

Alright. Would you be okay with your sons being prostitutes? I am not asking whether you would still love them, but rather would you be supportive and encourage them in their choice?

I doubt it's about companionship. More like fantasy without filters.

That's right- I think that's usually it. Lastepoint mentioned services for the severely disabled...I think that's minority market and I don't have a huge problem with that. That can be handled like a home care nurse- clinically but compassionately. I have a problem with young dejected women and men choosing jobs in brothels and greedy oversexed opportunists being all over the idea to serve their fantasies and/ or make money off of the enterprise and those with no intention of trying to move the culture away from it in the long term- because it's too much 'fun'. I don't think that's about freedom, but about power.

Kimmio

You are getting upset about my "suggestion". The opening post was about how did we see new laws working. You shouldn't get upset about my thoughts.

But I do disagree with you as to whether prostitution is necessary.

An unnecessary service doesn't survive long and prostituion has certainly been around in some form or other for centuries if not longer.

How can we determine what is necessary.

As a happily married person with a good sexlife , I have no use for the service. But how I can determine what the needs of others are.

Of course it is for pleasure. In some form or other.
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In my opinion, it is an impossible situation to stop the buying and selling of sexual favours.
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So if you can't stop it then a considered debate should evolve around what could work. To allow those who use the service to access it while caring for the workforce like any other work force.

I don't believe that we could degenerate to forced jobs. As that would go against the entire point of caring for the worker.

You have those fears and I understand that. I agree that we disagree on that EI aspect

Somehow I suspect that our government will not go with my thoughts but will be more on track with you in trying to Control/eliminate prostitution. I don't think it will be successful and I suspect another court challenge will occur.

That will take another decade or so and who knows what our culture will be like then

Lots of things that are unnecessary have been going on for a long time. We learn, we change. I think it has not changed- like I said- because the power of the alpha male in our world still rules. It doesn't have to rule humanity. I think you are confusing the functions of the primitive amygdala, preference and ignorance, with necessity.

I'm no more upset by your suggestion than I am about what I perceive to be ignorance on the subject generally. Not your fault. It's a popular opinion you hold. And sex holds powerful sway over lots of people. Doesn't have to have power to manipulate and oppress though. So does money.

Are you calling me ignorant?

Really. Cause I disagree with you?

I was unaware

Glad you told me.

Perhaps we could call your attitude prudish, stuck up, ultra conservative, red necked......

I had thought we and others were talking about what might work for an obvious problem.

But you, you have a lot of sexual hangups and an attitude that isn't going to advance the conversation at all

I am sure that our politicians , who are really all morally conservative , will agree with you. I too would prefer to see prostitution disappear but I prefer not to stick my head in the sand sand

Look lastpointe. I am not ultra conservative or a red neck. I have seen enough misery in my 40 years of life caused by poverty and exploitation than you have, I'd bet. I did point out that I think we humans are capable of over-riding our reptilian brains/ amygdalas- we all have them. Me included. We know how they function. And if that and favouring a long term vision of moving away from prostitution involving the use of other's bodies just because they're available for purchase, rather than moving towards accepting that it's underlying sexual oppression at the root of prostitution and moving to change that, makes me a red neck and a prude- because I am more anti-exploitation than I am pro-entertainment at all costs- even though I think sex is great but it's not an entitlement. So be it. Good to know.

Besides, IMO, it's the rednecks who favour those places- what are you talking about?

Interesting you called me a prude...beats the times men called me a whore. Thanks. That's an improvement. Lastpointe, I won't say you're ignorant but there's a side of this you're not looking at or not willing to aknowledge and I don't know why that is. I can't figure out for the life of me why people are against a long term vision of moving away from sex for sale the same way we moved away from slavery. I mean, I am sure back then people were moving away from slavery there were those who justified it by pointing out the friendly slave owners and all the money slavery brought in. They had a point, but it wasn't good enough.

Actually, slavery was defended by people who had a bible in hand, not a wad of cash.

Again, your solutions are unworkable. You aren't going to change men, you aren't going to change the marketplace, and you aren't going to reduce exploitation with your proposals. You can jump up and down all you want, and post your anecdotes, and note your disgust, but I'm glad you don't get to make public policy.

You're passionate about this. We get it. But you're not realistic about it.

Alpha male. Whatever.

I....just......wow.

Kimmio, seriously? Chansen speaks logically to you and your response is "alpha-male"?  my gosh, woman.

anyhow, waterfall, you asked, if my sons chose to choose sex for sale, I would want to ensure they were safe and it was a logical decision for them aware of the consequences.  That is no different than if they chose army, firefighting, oil worker, or boring office worker job.   I have a friend that had three jobs in university, one a stripper, one as an executive secretary, one as secretary for engineering society at university of waterloo. Do you want to guess which one was the most demeaning?  Which one paid the most?   Which one gave her the most power?

Kimmio, read the story of Sarah Devries....if you get through that and don't  consider legalized prostitution, well, i would be surprised.

Lastpointe, I understand.

I'm sorry. I am very passionate about this. For good reason and I've given out lots of personal examples, actually anonymous friend examples from my past that have given me pause to reflect- and because of some of the attitudes I also used to think were acceptable from men ("boys will be boys"), already, but no one cares to think about the angle I'm coming from. I don't care to get more personal here than I already have in order to prove anything to anyone. I feel like the more I protest the more you will be cemented in your point of view- a few of you here.

Consider this...if someone makes unwanted sexual advances on a person, touches them inappropriately, has unwanted sex with them- that's assault, and rape. A person's body is his/ her own and they have the right to say no, to stop at anytime they become uncomfortable. We understand this much. Now...if the only difference between an unwanted sexual act and a 'wanted' one is some money to pay the overdue bills- and there is absolutely no real 2 way physical attraction or friendship or anything else that makes the exchange pleasant for the person agreeing to share the intimate parts of her body and it's senses- in other words there's no way she'd do it otherwise and may even have to drink or drug herself up to go through with it- then can you not see the exploitation? If a person really cares enough about a woman such as her to want to give her an opportunity to get into a better place in life- if this is part of the argument for why to allow it- then, if you have enough money to pay for a hooker in the first place- just pay her damn hydro bill, pay for college...help her, and don't expect anything. But no. That's not how it works- it's about 'ooh look at that gimme"- and I find it very sad that people are more willing to advocate for the needs of the 'client'' in this scenario than advocate against exploiting the desperation of the prostitute- and I find it very selfish of those who can't see that. I'm very saddened by a society that thinks this way and that otherwise compassionate people are jumping all over the pro-prostitution band wagon. I think it's a step backwards for women's equality- and another point scored for men getting what they want by repackaging the idea to make it seem more palatable to compassionate people, so they can have their cake and eat it too. And I am the one who's not 'evolved' enough on the issue, am I?

Kimmio, you really are hung up on sex aren't you?  Have you ever enjoyed something? Can you imagine enjoying something and getting paid for it?  Now, can you imagine that was sex.  

Gosh, I can't believe how much you project your own understanding of sex on others.

Pinga- sexual hang ups? Well, if you think I have hang ups then imagine what kind of hang ups of all kinds, a runaway girl from an abusive home might be at risk for after she gets done having sex with 20 strangers a day for several years. I am thankful to be able to say I have never been through that. Your lack of compassion about this is showing. And this is not about what I enjoy. What is harmful here is more important than what anyone fantasizes about enjoying because these are vulnerable human lives we're talking about. This is about power, control, and sexual exploitation not 'hang ups'. Okay... Let's get real and get our heads out of the fantasy world...do you honestly think brothel prostitutes and street prostitutes really enjoy having sex with 20 strangers a day, really? Do you think you are projecting your fantasies about what you think it's really about onto others when it's not really about that at all? Nice fantasy- the happy hooker, who screws like a rabbit all day long and - whatever the client fancies (and pays for) and enjoys it- loves her (or his) job. Great theme for a Hollywood movie. That's exactly the scenario the people who buy it envision, and that's the fantasy world they'd try to sell to stay in business- and apparently it works. I'm willing to bet the farm it's not that way in reality in the majority of cases no matter how much the buyers dream it to be. I think the reality is darker, sadder than that, beneath the illusion.

Thankyou for your candor, but I am a bit stymied by your questions. How are you defining power? Are you also suggesting that the more one is paid that it equals more job satisfaction? Secretarial work is demeaning or just the particular job your friend held?

Statisically, most women in the sex trade industry have been abused sexually and have come from various unfortunate circumstances. There are exceptions of course. 

I worry that we put too much credence on the Scandinavian countries as our model for solutions. Most of these laws have only been in effect since 1999 and initially they appeared to be a success but as with most things it takes more time for evaluation to really determine the full impact of this approach.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2014/01/03/the-nordic-model-of-prostit...

I am also concerned that by choosing this model we become cohorts by aligning ourselves within a framework that perpetuates the abuse that began when most of these women were young.  Are we condoning and supporting the legalities because we want to believe this gives power back to these women? It just seems to me that psychologically these women have been cheated from even knowing there could be other choices by the fact that they were conditioned, groomed and almost predestined by their childhood abusers to fulfill the negative influence from the past, by continuing to not value themselves and to continue to have that reinforced by strangers that also don't value them.

Do we then become complicit? I don't know, just wondering. 

I think we do. I agree with this. It's the majority of cases. Pinga's friend is an exception. Thank you. You put it better than I can because I'm too worked up.

Escorts who set their own terms, have a few regular 'dates' that they have met and screened for themselves and like well enough, accompany on outings at a prepaid hourly rate, and sleep with and receive a 'gratuity on the night table" type scenario, I don't think should be illegal- even if sometimes they skip the outing and go straight to the gratuity. Not a choice I would make, but there's no reason to put anyone in jail for this sort of thing- 'kept women/ men' with married sugar daddies who pay their rent and give them an allowance and expect sex when they come to town on business- they don't really know each other, he keeps her at a distance, and it happens to be her only income and living support (this could be a guy also)- if that's their arrangement, I don't think it should be illegal- I don't think I do...hmmm. It is problematic for several reasons but I don't think anyone should be punished for it. Except if his wife finds out it's sure fire grounds divorce. I read in Huffpo that Vancouver is the most likely place to meet a sugar daddy in Canada- so there are probably quite a few women living under such an arrangement. I don't think it's very moral, and it puts her in quite a dependent predicament, but I don't think it should be illegal (and I don't actually know that it is, but it is a type of prostitution, technically- a paid for mistress of convenience). I knew someone several years ago who lived like this in a very nice apartment- and she was not able to date other men openly because her sugar daddy got jealous- my friend and I tried to talk her into leaving. She hoped to get a decent paying job, meet the right guy, sneak around, then get to a place where she could leave on her own- but her boyfriends also had problems with her arrangement and no one stayed with her long. It was not good. An unwise choice by a young woman who had a difficult time in her life. But the same thing could happen in a bad marriage- where a person feels stuck and dependent.

It's the Nevada Ranch type places that attract the young street prostitutes- take a percentage, pay her a percentage of the arranged rate- whatever the clients pays for off the service 'menu'- or maybe she gives the 'house' a cut- and it's all taxable and legal, but I worry about this scenario most. Those places- they prance the girls out like a pony show and every Tom, Dick and Harry gets to pick his favourite. This is what I think we're moving towards- and I think it should be made legal to be safe- but I also think we need to look at how to make this temporary- with a more long term vision about how to phase this out- change attitudes about it. This is the sort of scenario, although perhaps better than a street corner, is still exploitation- the sort of scenario that I am willing to bet most do not enjoy whatsoever, and their histories and vulnerabilities have been taken advantage of, big time. By the brothel owners, and by the clients who ought to know better that this is the situation- and ought to care but they don't. It is really awful. The sex worker needs to be in control of all the terms (money should not be a factor in whether or not s/he controls the terms), and the client needs to assume the risk of financial loss (right to refuse service at any point for any reason). It shouldn't be as easy as ordering a happy meal- that's unacceptable. It's exploitative. It's the sort of scenario whereby the only thing that differentiates it from sexual abuse is the cash she gets, and that's not good enough.

It was probably both, actually.

They waved the bible. The cash was in their pocket.

Kimmio,

You want to phase out the use of prostitution and you want to change attitudes about it.

I think it is highly unlikely that the use of prostitutes will phaseout.

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But attitudes have changed and that is what we are talking about. The change has been to acknowledge them and stop ignoring them. The change is that now there is a conversation that says "what should we do and what would be better"
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When I first came to toronto I worked at women's college hospital. For some unknown to me reason, it was the stroll for gay prostitutes. Day and night these young men, teens mainly, walked the sidewalk and got picked up in cars. Sometimes the car never even moved, they serviced the man right there. Sometimes they drove away and came back.
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They came into the hospital for bathrooms, coffee and they were always skinny, hungry looking and very young.
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Unsafe, dangerous work.
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When my daughter started dancing as a child, the studio was on the same street as the Parkdale Stroll. Old, tired looking, scantily dressed women walking the sidewalks. Those cars always drove away with them. Dangerous. For them and others.
I was approached more than once as I was walking to get my daughter. And of course it was a hard rule at the school, the students had to wait inside for parents to walk to the door. Never on the sidewalk.
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The discussion about what changes could work are related to those workers.

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Certainly recent history tells us that the existing system doesn't work. Enforcement won't stop it.

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No one is saying embrace it, join the ranks of working girls.
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But if people are going to do it, for whatever reason they may have, then keep it safe.
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And I think if it is licenced and controlled then perhaps it is safer.

The risk I see actually , is that we get a second tier of prostitutes anyway. That the street walker will still be there. Perhaps because they don't qualify for a licence due to health issues. Perhaps age. So they continue and offer cheaper service and end up still getting the johns who look for a bargain.

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To me, if we moved towards a brothel style of business that is the risk. Because that will always be dangerous

I am all for legalization - for safety, health and social aspects.

I would love to know your definition of a brothel - many business people who travel (male dominated but it happens for all sexual orientation) will tell you that many higher end "business targeted hotels" will provide these services.  I kind of get the impression from some that the brothel style is stereotyped as dirty.....it has many forms.

Lastepoint: I was thinking that too. What about the women (or men) who "don't make the cut"? And what about the 'clients' who can't afford the brothel? It would drive it even further underground, even more seedy and dangerous.

.........
Back to an earlier point- I know it sounds stupid to many of you- but I still think that providing 'virtual' alternatives just might be at least part of a solution. At least some kinky people might find that to be an intriguing novelty and it has the least potential for harm. I think automated grocery check outs are more stupid- they don't help anyone except maybe Safeway. Fewer available jobs, and the damn things are always jamming up or it takes forever to find the freaking right kind of apples in the produce menu and an employee who's already over-worked has to come over and fix it. ;)

Jobam: when I say brothels, I am thinking Hotel California or Amsterdam style brothels, strip clubs with 'enhanced' services, or the Nevada Ranch type places. Not call girls/ guys who come to hotel rooms. That's more like an escort service.

Prostitution {C} Search {C} Select Language​▼ HOME ABOUT US METRICS FAQS TRAFFIC CONTACT US DONORS & SPONSORS SUPPORT / DONATE TEACHERS' CORNER Prostitution Home   Featured Resources 1. Should Prostitution Be Legal? 2. Top 10 Pros and Cons 3. Did You Know? 4. Historical Timeline 5. Comments -Pros & Cons by Category CORE QUESTION Defining Terms Key Concepts and Demographics Brothels Crime Decriminalization vs. Legalization Demean Women? Economics Health Human Trafficking Marriage and Prostitution Morality Personal Freedom and Liberty Pornography Red-Light Districts Viewpoints from Involved Parties Projects 6. 100 Countries and Their Prostitution Policies 7. US Federal and State Prostitution Laws and Related Punishments 8. US and State Prostitution Arrests, 2001-2010 9. Opinion Polls/Surveys 10. Percentage of Men (by Country) Who Paid for Sex at Least Once: The Johns Chart Learn More 11. Source Biographies 12. Glossary 13. Notices Archive 14. Site Map + Additional Resources Rhode Island Outlaws Indoor Prostitution, Closing Legal Loophole Thanks! Get free email updates: Last updated on: 2/15/2008 8:54:00 AM PST   Prostitution Home Page > Viewpoints from Involved Parties > Do Prostitutes Want Prostitution Legalized? >   Do Prostitutes Want Prostitution Legalized?   PRO (yes) CON (no) Margo St. James, Founder of Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics (COYOTE) and former prostitute, was quoted in the Mar. 5-11, 1998 article "Margo St. James on the Power of Sex and Dangerous Beauty" in the Sonoma County Independent, as having said: "There's such a stigma about the money!... Well, that's the big taboo: sleeping with men for money. It's perfectly legal--in this state anyway--for a woman to have sex with anyone she chooses, at any time. But the minute five cents changes hands--then boom! She's a whore, and she goes to jail. It's ludicrous." Mar. 5-11, 1998 - Margo St. James  Carol Leigh, Founder of Bay Area Sex Workers Advocacy Network (BAYSWAN) and former prostitute, said on "Justice Talking" on National Public Radio (NPR) on Mar. 4, 2002 that: "Decriminalization is not at all a solution to every injustice that exists in the sex industry; it is a starting point. If prostitution were not an underground activity it would allow us to much more effectively address the serious problems of forced prostitution and juvenile prostitution and the other abuses which are part of an industry that operates completely in the shadows. ...[T]here are many who... want other options and they should be given alternatives and assistance. And then there are also those who organize for their rights and are not quitting at the moment and they should be afforded options, their rights, and self-determination as well. Whatever ills are attendant to prostitution, criminalization of prostitutes exacerbates the abuse." Mar. 4, 2002 - Carol Leigh  Tracy Quan, author and former prostitute, in the Feb. 25, 2003 Philadelphia Inquirer editorial "U.S. Lags on Sex Laws," wrote: "Acknowledging that prostitutes have basic rights — that we are an important part of every society — is no longer radical. Those who refuse to do so, those who continue to defend the persecution and arrest of sex workers, are increasingly seen as extremists. America's prostitution policies are so backward in comparison to those of most advanced countries — and a number of developing ones — that we provoke sarcastic comparisons with Islamic theocracies. Given our self-image as a secular democracy, this is more than embarrassing. It's bizarre." Feb. 23, 2003 - Tracy Quan  Norma Jean Almodovar, Executive Director of Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics (COYOTE) LA and Southern California and former prostitute, wrote in a Jan. 2, 2007 e-mail to ProCon.org: "As a long time sex worker rights activist, I believe that a system of decriminalization of all private, consenting adult commercial sex would be of greatest benefit to those in the sex industry....   Treat adult women who become prostitutes as adults who are capable of making choices for their own lives. Stop trying to impose moral or social values on us and then tell us 'it's for our own good!!!!'" Jan. 2, 2007 - Norma Jean Almodovar  Andrea Dworkin, author and former prostitute, in an Oct. 21, 1992 speech at University of Michigan Law School's symposium "Prostitution: From Academia to Activism," said: "I ask you to think about your own bodies--if you can do so outside the world that the pornographers have created in your minds, the flat, dead, floating mouths and vaginas and anuses of women. I ask you to think concretely about your own bodies used that way. How sexy is it? Is it fun? The people who defend prostitution and pornography want you to feel a kinky little thrill every time you think of something being stuck in a woman. I want you to feel the delicate tissues in her body that are being misused. I want you to feel what it feels like when it happens over and over and over and over and over and over and over again: because that is what prostitution is." Oct. 31, 1992 - Andrea Dworkin  Norma Hotaling, Executive Director of the Standing Against Global Exploitation (SAGE) Project and former prostitute, said in her Apr. 28, 2005 testimony to the U.S. House Financial Services Subcommittee on Domestic and International Monetary Policy, Trade and Technology that: "As long as we point the finger away from ourselves, away from the institutions that blame and criminalize women and children for their own rape, sexual abuse, trafficking and slavery, away from the men who we normalize as ‘Johns,’ and as long as we disconnect adult prostitution and the exploitation of children and disconnect prostitution and trafficking in human beings for the purposes of rape and sex slavery; then we are to blame and we have assisted in creating well-funded transnational criminal networks – dollar by dollar." Apr. 28, 2005 - Norma Hotaling  Christine Stark, author and former prostitute, said on "Justice Talking" on National Public Radio (NPR) on Mar. 4, 2002 that: "[Y]ou don't legalize organized rape. You just don't do that. What we have found is that legalization has caused an increase in the trafficking into the area where the legalization exists. The state then becomes the pimp… Legalizing prostitution creates more demand and mainstreams abuse of women and children..." Mar. 4, 2002 - Christine Stark, MFA  Anne Bissell, Founder of Sex Industry Survivors Anonymous and former prostitute, was quoted in the Sep. 23, 2004 story "Sex Industry Comes To Toledo" on WTOL-TV in Toledo, Ohio, as having said: "...[T]hey don't understand if you legalize prostitution it's actually going to increase trafficking. So there's a lot of things people don't understand because of the glamour around this business." Sep. 23, 2004 - Anne Bissell

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