well, it goes back to a huge mistake made after WW2, the creation of the state of Israel, taking away other people's land to do it.
We can forget all the biblical chatter about promised lands. Even if one believes that and forgets all the in and outs and controversies of it, the European Jews who flooded into Israel were almost certainly not the descendents of ancient Israel. They were Ashkenaze, converts to judaism from southern russia and neighbouring regions. (The descendants of bibilcal Israel are the sephardic Jews, some of whom lived in Palestine - and quite likely palestinians descemded from converts to Islam, that is, the people who are now being bombed.) There is no biblical or moral justification for the creation of Israel. And no practical justification, either. For western powers to plant a Jewish state which displaced arab peoples was pure idiocy bound to lead to eternal trouble, rather like making arab moslems pay the price for the long history of anti-semiitism in the Christian west.
It has in the process made huge changes in Judaism, developing a strain of it that resembles the most brutal aggressive features of American evangelical fundamentalism. Suitably enough, this element of judaism has developed a powerful north american lobby, powerful enough to hold all leading Ameican political figures hostage. In montreal, I could see the effects of the lobby taking hold on the Jewish community, one by one getting control of virtually all major elements of Jewish community organization. It has seriously split Jewish communities in both Canada and the US, but is very, very powerful. One of its nuttier leaders, incidentally, is a trusted advisor to Stephen Harper.
Within Israel, the memory of the holocaust combined with the wars to establish Israel have given dominance to the most aggressive elements of Israeli society. They think only in terms of military solutions through the destruction of all enemies. We are now watching that destruction in Gaza.
I spent much of my life in the Ashkenze community in Montreal. These are people I love dearly. I always was aware that the smaller palestinian (sephardic) Jewish community disliked the Ashkenze, but I was always sure it must be something wrong with the sephardics. It has disappointed me terribly to realize the sephardics were right, that the Askenazes, in particular, of Israel have done something terrible to Judaism.
There will be no end to the fighting without the virtual destruction of one side or the other. The logic of Israel's position is that conventional and limited wars can nver fully protect it because it can never establish full military control over its neighbours. The neighbours are too many and too large. So Israel can win a hundred wars and win only delay.
Its enemies, however, need to win only once, and it is all over as a tiny Israel could be speedily overrun and dismantled.
The obvious answer for Israel is more wars to expand the terrority and increase the population of Israel so it cannot be easily overrun - and it can do that largely because it has in the background the threat of the only nuclear arsenal in the region. (Iran, for all the hysteria, is nowhere even close to having comparable power.)
Thus the treatment of Palestine which has been going on for years. And the US will continue to support Israel in whatever it does - supplying the aircaft and the bombs and the tanks and the rockets that make Israel such a powerful military force.
And don't expect Bush and Obama to be as much as an inch apart on this one.
graeme
crazyheart
Posted on: 12/27/2008 21:59
thank you graeme for taking the time to post this.
ninjafaery
Posted on: 12/28/2008 12:21
...and now that the egg is cracked, it can't be unbroken......
That's what we're left with. Israel is a fact, like it or not. No one can just pack up and leave with everthing reverting back to the way it was. Any problem-solving needs to accept this.
Thanks Graeme, for a clear synopsis.
graeme
Posted on: 12/28/2008 12:36
you're right, ninja. In fact, the egg is double broken. Once the western powers - and it was largely the western powers - decided to plant an Israeli state there, they had an obligation to ensure that the displaced Palestinians were looked after and that Israel could be secure without the need to become the world's most militaristic state. They didn't do either.
When the US finally did decide to take action, its decision favoured the creation of Israel as a highly militaristic state. In the long run, that does no favour to either Israel or Judaism.
At this point, any answer has to address a way to cut down on Israeli military power while pledging israelii security. At the same time, the world has a pretty massive job in stimulating enormous changes in the economy and security of Paliestinians. Nobody has shown much enthusiasm for either of those. And hanging over it all is the question of what to do with that Israeli arsenal of some 250 nuclear armed missiles.
As always, it's much easier to create problems than to solve them.
graeme
trishcuit
Posted on: 12/29/2008 03:15
Kind of like Ireland with the Protestants and the Catholics and the IRA and such.:
If you're not confused then you don't know what's going on.
ShamanWolf
Posted on: 12/29/2008 10:54
Just because the Ashkenazes of Israel, propelled by various historical factors, screwed a lot of stuff up doesn't make it OK to be prejudiced against Canadian Ashkenazes. It doesn't make the Palestinian community right. There is no reason to 'dislike' an entire ethnic group. That'll just get them more defensive anyway.
There are crazies in Israel, though, for sure. Apparently, some of them think Bush is too easy on the Arabs - BUSH - and "the only possible reason is anti-Semitism".
GadZooks
Posted on: 12/29/2008 14:01
Is this the Burning Bush of old?
Though it was consumed by fire it did not burn.
GadZooks
Posted on: 12/29/2008 14:08
As I understand it, there was a 6 month cease-fire which came to an end. Hamas launched a couple rockets across the border, and then all hell broke loose once again.
Yesterday, much to Israel's (and the world's) confusion, the Palastinian rockets slowed. Does anyone know why?
I find the whole ordeal a mixture of sickening/frightening/fascinating. In the Western world, we tend to sympathise with Israel. But I can understand the Palastinian side, too - I would be pretty ticked if I was told I had to move and I would not be compensated.
Where I get really confused is - I can't tell which side is more right. I don't like the war tactics used by the Palastinians, but I also don't like the seeming continuously expanding borders and the diplomatic bullying of Israel.
I think its going to get worse before it gets better.
GadZooks
Posted on: 12/29/2008 14:26
One more comment - does anyone else find the fact that the Western media are being kept out of Gaza a little unnerving?
graeme
Posted on: 12/29/2008 14:44
I'm not prejudiced against Canadian ashkenazis. Nor did I say I was. Indeed, the Canadian Jewish community itself is very split. But those with power advance the pretence it is not split, and all Jews are united in support of Israel. They are not, and the critics of Israel are to be found among both sephardics and ashkenazis. However, the critical ones are finding it difficult to get a voice in the Jewish media or in insitutions.
The US has used its veto to protect Israel from UN criticsm. It's been doing that consistently for 40 years as Israel has consistently ignored international law and UN resolutions in its treatment of Palestinians.
graeme
The_Omnissiah
Posted on: 12/30/2008 19:01
Thank you graeme for you replies, they are insightful and I know you have much knowledge in this subject. For anyone who wants to know my opinion...see my rant in "Oh sure, now it's news" thread in the Global Issues section.
As-Salaamu Alaikum
-Omni
trishcuit
Posted on: 12/31/2008 14:32
Ah yes, the "Oh sure now it's news" thread. You get to meet the TROLL. (The Inkeeper.)
graeme
Posted on: 12/31/2008 15:38
We should be careful not to pile all the blame on Israel and Palestine. Remember how this started.
It began with the movement for zionism, an understandable but wrong-headed movement to re create an Israel where ancient Israel had been, something like a movement of my French ancestors to re-establish themselves on the russian steppes where they (perhaps) had originated. Following the Israeli model, my French ancestors would have begun random killing of russians in a terrorist movement, then flooded in to displace the local people.
At that point, most of the western world, operating through the UN, would formally recognize the new state, neatly ignoring the million or so refugees thus created who would now spend the rest of their lives effectively in a prison camp.
Yes, that was us who did that moronic thing - recognizing a state built on stolen land, creating cities of refugees in a poor and tiny area. Having done that, we left Israel to defend itself - a choice which created a militarism which has no connection with Judaism, and creating a state which has bullied the largely helpless Palestinians for generations. What on earth did we think was going to happen when we did that?
When you look at the history of it all, and you look for first causes that began all this, the Palestinians are the least guilty, if guilty at all. There is guilt on the zionist side, going back to the terrorism of the 40s and the willingness to displace other people. But, looking at t he horror of the holocaust, the zionist attitude is at least understandable.
What is not understandable is the real creation of this problem by giving official sanction t o what zionists wanted. We are the ones who did that. And, instead of working on a solution to the problem, the US has led the way to far bigger problems with "foreign aid" that has made Israel a major military power - even with nuclear weapons.
As was said many years ago in Pogo, we have met the enemy, and he is us.
graeme
stoneeyeball
Posted on: 12/31/2008 18:42
Maybe I can go to France and reclaim the land taken from my ancestors during the Reformation (Huguenots) for the 'religious' twist and the Revolution. So they have to take someone else's land, big deal!!! They could also throw in an apology and compensation from the Vatican. I'll form my own country, have "Mon Pays" by Gilles Vigneault as the national anthem, and apply for foreign assistance. And, if France gives me too much trouble, I'll separate! After WW2, they should have said to Israel, "Get over it, people, and over whatever trip you're on." (I'm not anti-Israel, I'm anti-bandwagon).
BornFree
Posted on: 01/02/2009 21:10
I find this very interesting!!
Son of Hamas Leader Gives Glimpse Into Terror Organization
I haven't heard of the stern gang but any story from Fox News is suspect right off the bat. Given that this young man is now an evangelical christian, of course he's going to hold this view. What's newsworthy here?
graeme
Posted on: 01/02/2009 23:03
terrorism in the middle east began with zionist terrorism in the 1940s. It was directed against moslems, and also against the British. One of the leading terrorist orgamnizations was the Stern Gang. Indeed, many of Israel's politicians for over a decade came from the ranks of zionist terrorists.
More broadly, many nations use terrorism and have done so for a very long time. It's surely no secret that the US has been training latin american terrorists for decades. It also, and knowingly, supplied Saddam for much of his deeds. The French used terrorism on a wide scale in both Algeria and Vietnam. The bombingcampaigns, on both sides, in the second world war were terrorism and were meant to be terrorism. But we only call it terrorism when the other side does it.
graeme
BornFree
Posted on: 01/03/2009 10:48
Motheroffive wrote:
I haven't heard of the stern gang but any story from Fox News is suspect right off the bat. Given that this young man is now an evangelical christian, of course he's going to hold this view. What's newsworthy here?
MOF, I'm not really surprised by your bias but did you know that Foxnews has more viewers than CNN, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, ABC combined. Doesn't that say something for their credibilty even though they may not report what you want to hear?
Many that claim they are a right wing news station are only seeing the parts that are right wing. If you are judging their news by the talk shows such as O'Reilly then you are missing out on a well balanced reporting network.
The other thing is, why would you blow this guy off because he became a Christian. Can't you see the irony here? This guy was a terrorist and God rescued him from that. He is thankful and you are diminishing this thing we should all be rejoicing over.
Did you not have a super new transition when you became a Christian?
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 01/03/2009 12:48
December 28, 2008
Jewish Voice for Peace joins millions around the world, including the 1,000 Israelis who protested in the streets of Tel Aviv this weekend, in condemning ongoing Israeli attacks on Gaza. We call for an immediate end to attacks on all civilians, whether Palestinian or Israeli.
Israel's slow strangulation of Gaza through blockade has caused widespread suffering to the 1.5 million people of Gaza due to lack of food, electricity, water treatment supplies and medical equipment. It is a violation of humanitarian law and has been widely condemned around the world.
In resisting this strangulation, Hamas resumed launching rockets and mortars from Gaza into southern Israel, directly targeting civilians, which is also a war crime. Over the years, these poorly made rockets have been responsible for the deaths of 15 Israelis since 2004.
Every country, Israel included, has the right and obligation to protect its citizens. The recent ceasefire between Israel and Hamas in Gaza shows that diplomatic agreements are the best protection for civilian life.
Moreover, massive Israeli air strikes have proven an indiscriminate and brutal weapon. In just two days, the known death toll is close to 300, and the attacks are continuing. By targeting the infrastructure of a poor and densely populated area, Israel has ensured widespread civilian casualties among this already suffering and vulnerable population.
This massive destruction of Palestinian life will not protect the citizens of Israel. It is illegal and immoral and should be condemned in the strongest possible terms. And it threatens to ignite the West Bank and add flames to the other fires burning in the Middle East and beyond for years to come.
The timing of this attack, during the waning days of a US administration that has undertaken a catastrophic policy toward the Middle East and during the run-up to an Israeli election, suggests an opportunistic agenda for short-term political gain at an immense cost in Palestinian lives. In the long run this policy will benefit no-one except those who always profit from war and exploitation. Only a just and lasting peace, achieved through a negotiated agreement, can provide both Palestinians and Israelis the security they want and deserve.
Gee, born free. if more people watch fox news than any other, that must mean fox news is the best. and if more people drink coke than organge juice, that must prove coke is healthier than orange juice.
And Christianity saved a man from being a terrorist? Gee whiz, bornfree, the terrorist who blew up a Cuban airliner is a Christian, and he is now being protected by a Christian government. The soldiers who murdered 200,000 mayan civilians in Guatemala over the past forty years were Christians. The Naziis who murdered millions of Jews were Christians. The Americans who carpet bombed southeast asian cities and murdered over two millions vietnamese cities were christian. So I would never have thought that becoming Christian saves you from being a terrorist.
Gee. I wish I was smart like you.
graeme
BornFree
Posted on: 01/03/2009 16:52
graeme wrote:
Gee, born free. if more people watch fox news than any other, that must mean fox news is the best. and if more people drink coke than organge juice, that must prove coke is healthier than orange juice.
I never said it was the best, I just said that it is slurred by radical left wingers, like you, but is watched by more people than the ones you watch.
It doesn't surprise me that you don't agree with anything that doesn't think exactly like you because you are so educated.
As to the orange juice analogy you have a warped way of looking at statistics. That just means that more people prefer coke than orange juice and according to this analogy it must mean that more people like Foxnews.
graeme wrote:
And Christianity saved a man from being a terrorist? Gee whiz, bornfree, the terrorist who blew up a Cuban airliner is a Christian, and he is now being protected by a Christian government.
My goodness greybee,
You are so cynical. What makes you think this man is a Christian? Because he claims it?
And where in society do we have a Christian government except through Jesus Christ himself?
We do have governments that are controlled by other religions in the world though. Have you ever criticised them?
graeme wrote:
The soldiers who murdered 200,000 mayan civilians in Guatemala over the past forty years were Christians.
They were?? Where are their claims about that? And you claim to be a man with historical background. I would say it is more "hysterical" background.
graeme wrote:
The Naziis who murdered millions of Jews were Christians.
Oh sure! There you go again stirring up trouble.
Did all those Naziis claim a Christ indwelled heart or did a couple of them use the term Christian as an excuse for their hellbent actions. If you knew your bible you would know that they were not following the actions of Christ.
Obviously you have not given your heart to Jesus Christ or you would know the difference.
graeme wrote:
The Americans who carpet bombed southeast asian cities and murdered over two millions vietnamese cities were christian.
Again and again with your wide brush. Give me a quote from just one of those soldiers who claimed to be Christian and were acting in the name of God.
C'mon big history professor. Show me your evidence.
graeme wrote:
So I would never have thought that becoming Christian saves you from being a terrorist.
I didn't think that you would think that way!
graeme wrote:
Gee. I wish I was smart like you.
graeme
I have to say that you are showing your brilliance by your childlike responses.
I have to admit that I am not smart like you and I'm very glad about it!
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 01/03/2009 17:11
BornFree wrote:
Again and again with your wide brush. Give me a quote from just one of those soldiers who claimed to be Christian and were acting in the name of God.
'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did.
George W Bush, Commander in Chief US Forces
crazyheart
Posted on: 01/03/2009 17:21
lb. did the make you do it?
BornFree
Posted on: 01/03/2009 18:05
LBmuskoka wrote:
BornFree wrote:
Again and again with your wide brush. Give me a quote from just one of those soldiers who claimed to be Christian and were acting in the name of God.
'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did.
George W Bush, Commander in Chief US Forces
You know LB, I have admired some of your responses over time but I have to say that when you quote something third-hand from Nabil Shaath, who was a Palestinian foreign minister, and attribute it to George Bush, I have to call you on just about everything you have posted on this site.
I realize that you want to believe this so bad that you would want to do this but to actually do it just put you in the toilet with our petty little Leftwinger graeme.
Mahmoud Abbas' Press wrote:
Abbas denies Bush's 'mission from God' remark
October 8, 2005 - 12:23PM
Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas has denied an account by another Palestinian official of a meeting with US President George Bush in which Bush is cited as saying he believed that God told him to go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq.
A statement in Abbas's name released by his office said an excerpt from an interview with Palestinian Information Minister Nabil Shaath due to be broadcast by the BBC in which Shaath described a meeting with Bush in June 2003 gave a "completely false" account.
In the interview for the series, Israel and the Arabs, Shaath described the meeting, at which he said Abbas was present.
"President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did. And then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq.' And I did,'" Shaath said.
"This report is not true," the Abbas statement said today. "I have never heard President Bush talking about religion as a reason behind the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. President Bush has never mentioned that in front of me on any occasion and specifically not during my visit in 2003."
Shaath could not be reached for comment.
Apologies accepted but not anticipated!
Bjorne
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 01/03/2009 19:52
You are right Bornfree the quote is in dispute. It was stated on a BBC documentary about the Iraq war and subsequently denied by the White House. source The BBC Press Office
As was this quote from the Mennonite Weekly Review columnist Jack Brubaker, "I trust God speaks through me. Without that I couldn't do my job."
The actual words may be in dispute but few would deny that Bush is deeply convicted that God works through him and who are we to deny his belief that God directs his actions.
Not disputed is the following...
Because of this, the president’s argument for the war has come to rest primarily on the spread of democracy and freedom in the Middle East. And he has repeatedly linked this justification to God’s plans for the world. “Freedom is not America’s gift to the world,” he is fond of saying. “It is God’s gift to humanity.” He reiterated this in the last presidential debate, when Bob Schieffer asked him about his statement that he had “checked with a higher authority” than his own father before the invasion of Iraq. The president responded, “I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That’s what I believe. And that’s been a part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. And I can’t tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march.”
I wondered myself whether this was George Bush or whether it was the speechwriter. Mike Gerson is a skillful speechwriter, a graduate of Wheaton College, an evangelical himself. So one has to always wonder, how much is it the speechwriter, and how much is it the president? We'll never know. …
Because of this, the president’s argument for the war has come to rest primarily on the spread of democracy and freedom in the Middle East. And he has repeatedly linked this justification to God’s plans for the world. “Freedom is not America’s gift to the world,” he is fond of saying. “It is God’s gift to humanity.” He reiterated this in the last presidential debate, when Bob Schieffer asked him about his statement that he had “checked with a higher authority” than his own father before the invasion of Iraq. The president responded, “I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That’s what I believe. And that’s been a part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. And I can’t tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march.”
You do not allow God to rule your heart if you don't believe that God has designed us all to be free.
We should all be striving for this from our immediate families, our neighbourhoods, our cities, our provinces, our country and the world.
Admit it. You have a hate on for G Bush because he represents the Right and nothing will sway you.
It's an "us against them" philosophy that you follow and your heart will never be right until you give it completely to God.
Motheroffive
Posted on: 01/03/2009 21:22
Here are some videos about what's happening in Gaza and the other Occupied Territories in Israel from a source that I have been informed is reliable. They are long but worth-while if one wants to understand what's happening.
crazyheart
Posted on: 01/03/2009 22:15
The news out of Gaza right now is not good. Israel has launched a ground attack. Hamas is responding. Innocent children and citizens are being killed. Violence does not work. they have to get back to a cease fire and find a way to establish peace through diplomacy, imo.
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 01/03/2009 22:38
BornFree wrote:
It's an "us against them" philosophy that you follow and your heart will never be right until you give it completely to God.
Not at all Bornfree, it is a "no war is justified" philosophy that I follow and this philosophy comes from my heartfelt experiences that God created a world of beauty and that we desecrate Creation by destroying it.
LB
We have an extraordinary God. God is a mighty God, but this God needs you. When someone is hungry, bread doesn't come down from heaven. When God wants to feed the hungry, you and I must feed the hungry. And now God wants peace in the world.
Archbishop Desmond Tutu
The_Omnissiah
Posted on: 01/04/2009 01:44
BornFree wrote:
I never said it was the best, I just said that it is slurred by radical left wingers, like you, but is watched by more people than the ones you watch.
So it's watched by more people than other news stations eh...? Please back this up with some stats. Also, does that really mean anything? More people voted for George W. than anyone else...does that make ol' george a keeper?
BornFree wrote:
It doesn't surprise me that you don't agree with anything that doesn't think exactly like you because you are so educated.
Funny, you seem to be like that sometimes as well...
BornFree wrote:
As to the orange juice analogy you have a warped way of looking at statistics. That just means that more people prefer coke than orange juice and according to this analogy it must mean that more people like Foxnews.
Ok, I've read this through several times....what? Are you agreeing with him? Are you saying it's a dumb analogy? Are you assuming some signifigant difference between the meanings of "perfer" and "like" ?
BornFree wrote:
My goodness greybee,
You are so cynical. What makes you think this man is a Christian? Because he claims it?
Umm...yes? Your a Christian because you claim it. I do expect you'll start to defend yourself by saying "well if you look at scripture..." or "...Jesus has shown me the way...".
Honestly, if it was up to that, then everyone who wanted to call themselves a christian could be one because it's all about your interpretation no? Oh wait, thats how it is.
I'm a Muslim because I claim it. He's a Christians because he claims it.
Now I see where your coming from, and that some people obviously aren't christian, but i'm just playing the devil's advocate and throwing that out there. It's an experiment in perception-reality.
BornFree wrote:
And where in society do we have a Christian government except through Jesus Christ himself?
Again it's all about what people claim.
BornFree wrote:
We do have governments that are controlled by other religions in the world though. Have you ever criticised them?
Are you sure they are controlled by "other religions"? Take Saudi Arabia...a country inhabitted by a shitload of Muslims... even though it may claim to be a "Muslim country", I can prove otherwise. So please, name some of these countries controlled by other religions please.
What graeme was trying to get at I think was that these countries and people were christians in the majority, just as Muslims are the majority in Saudi Arabia...
BornFree wrote:
They were?? Where are their claims about that? And you claim to be a man with historical background. I would say it is more "hysterical" background.
Where are your claims for being a christian from? Sounds rediculous eh? Well i'm sure a lot of those people would be flabberghasted by people questioning their christianity as well...
BornFree wrote:
Oh sure! There you go again stirring up trouble.
Did all those Naziis claim a Christ indwelled heart or did a couple of them use the term Christian as an excuse for their hellbent actions.
Well, all the members of the Wehrmarcht swore this oath:
Nazi Oath wrote:
I swear by God this sacred oath that I shall render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich and people, supreme commander of the armed forces, and that I shall at all times be ready, as a brave soldier, to give my life for this oath.
Seeing as christianity was not only the prevelent religion in germany at the time, but only state authorized one....which "god" do you think they were pledging this oath to hmm? Whilst declaring this oath, they would take hold of a lowered german flag with their left hand, and hold their right hand up, the thumb and first two fingers outstretched. This had the dual meaning of representing both the trinity before which they swore the oath, and the third reich to which they swore it.
Nevermind the "Gott mitt uns" inscribed on all their belts.
You may not see them as christians, but i'm sure a lot of them felt the "Christian God" was on their side.
BornFree wrote:
If you knew your bible you would know that they were not following the actions of Christ.
Don't you see!!! That's just it!!! If you knew your Qur'an you'd know that neither the Hamas, or this person who claimed to be a muslim, were following God's message conveyed through his prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
He himself mentioned 72 virgins. Any self-respecting Muslim knows that there is NO MENTION WHATSOEVER of 72 virgins to you can bang in the afterlife...the ONLY REFERENCE of virgins in the afterlife in the Holy Qur'an, is that your companions will be virgin-pure, as in Chaste, Pure, Uncorrupted, et cetera...
This just shows that he was following some twisted, heretical, evil, and hateful bastard offshoot of Islam the media sometime's labels "Islamism". So if he was not a true Muslim...then how can he claim to say Islam is evil? And that we should all go "study" to learn the errors of our ways?
He's one to talk...
BornFree wrote:
Obviously you have not given your heart to Jesus Christ or you would know the difference.
Well, I actually have...I was confirmed at age 12...but I realized my personal mistake and took my heart back from the slave, and gave it to the Master.
I cannot speak for graeme, but I think he has come to know God through his messanger Jesus (peace be upon him) and you really have no right, nor authority to judge that relationship.
BornFree wrote:
Again and again with your wide brush. Give me a quote from just one of those soldiers who claimed to be Christian and were acting in the name of God.
Speaking of wide brush, have you seen what the media has done to Muslims recently?
Anne Frank wrote in her diary "When a christian does something wrong, it's his fault...when a Jew does something wrong, it's every Jew's fault...". That sad reality has now dawned on Islam...
So I would never have thought that becoming Christian saves you from being a terrorist.
BornFree wrote:
It's an "us against them" philosophy that you follow and your heart will never be right until you give it completely to God.
No, it's not. People who say "Israel is innocent, we have to unite against the evils of the incrouching Muslism!!" follow a "Us-versus-them" philosophy.
graeme is quite the opposite, he has seen through the media's distortion, and sought the truth, and understands that not everything is as it seems, something you ahve yet to realize apparently.
As-Salaamu Alaikum BornFree, and graeme.
-Omni
Motheroffive
Posted on: 01/04/2009 02:15
BornFree wrote:
MOF, I'm not really surprised by your bias but did you know that Foxnews has more viewers than CNN, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, ABC combined. Doesn't that say something for their credibilty even though they may not report what you want to hear?
Bornfree, I do not watch TV at all (one exception - I get CBC TV on rabbit ears and watch "Little Mosque on the Prairie" when I'm not busy) mainly because of the corporate bias that permeates it.
BornFree wrote:
The other thing is, why would you blow this guy off because he became a Christian. Can't you see the irony here? This guy was a terrorist and God rescued him from that. He is thankful and you are diminishing this thing we should all be rejoicing over.
I am not blowing him off because he became a Christian - I am skeptical about this story because it is set up to marginalize those who are Muslim. It is sanctimonious in tone, as well. I also personally doubt that this man has changed much -- my thought is that he has put on another religious form. There are those who embrace the spirit of the law and others who embrace the letter, regardless of how it's framed in the religious context. This leopard doesn't appear to have changed its spots.
BornFree wrote:
Did you not have a super new transition when you became a Christian?
Yes, I did and it was a beginning of learning how vast and mysterious love really is -- all embracing and unconditionally inclusive. I am grateful for that. However, I don't think that experiences of this nature are reserved for Christians -- Tom Harper's book, "For Christ's Sake" has an excellent story about a well (symbolic of Love) and what humanity did with that well. The story was called "The Spring of Living Waters" - have you read it?
After what happened today in Gaza, this article is all the more relevant.
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 01/04/2009 09:02
Excellent article MotherofFive. This was the part that stood out for me....
In a 2006 election that everyone agrees was fair, Palestinians chose a Hamas government. “We” immediately withheld aid to show disapproval.
Israel illegally withheld revenues like customs. The U.S. built up anti-Hamas forces. A virtual Palestinian civil war ensued, and Hamas took over Gaza, not exactly first prize. Israel tightened its existing Gaza blockade on most goods and all exports with the explicit purpose, repeated this week by its Prime Minister to explain the bombing, of pressuring Gazans to turn on Hamas. This amounts to punishing innocent people for political ends, which is pretty close to the conventional definition of terrorism.
For democractic countries, particularly countries that start wars to "protect democracy", such actions are the height of hypocrisy.
The Palestinians state they used the rocket attacks to bring attention to the blockade. It has been argued they could have done so in a peaceful manner - like protest marches - they did and no one paid any attention. We have governments that claim they want non-violent solutions and yet systematically create the environments that will lead to violence.
LB
Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.
Aristotle (384-322 BC)
ShamanWolf
Posted on: 01/04/2009 10:16
BornFree: I for one am not blowing your guy off, although I hate Fox News. I don't doubt for a second that Hamas is every bit as awful as this guy says it is. The question is, does that justify violence? Is the violence going to have ANY effect at all, aside from making Hamas MORE popular? If you look at it from a historical perspective, it's never worked before. Why should it work now?
If you say that Christian terrorists aren't Christians because they're terrorists, you can also say that Muslim terrorists aren't Muslims because they're terrorists. Both religions have passages prohibiting violence, and passages advocating it.
ShamanWolf
Posted on: 01/04/2009 10:16
G. Bush's wars had nothing to do with religion. Just oil.
crazyheart
Posted on: 01/04/2009 11:00
A complex problem - no simplistic resolution.
Gaza was given to Palestinians
Hamas ( terrorists) took over Gaza
Starting sending missiles into Israel
Israel and Hamas both broke the peace with missiles
Hamas are Palestinian but not all Palestinians are Hamas
Israel is now retaliating
All out war on Hamas (but Palestinians children and citizens are being used as human shields and are being killed)
There is a humantaian disaster in Gaza
Israel is not backing down
The world is speaking out again Israeli actions
There must be a cease fire and a peace will have to be negotiated by diplomacy not weapons.
This is a simple break down as i see it. Please feel free to correct me.
TentMaker
Posted on: 01/04/2009 11:27
ShamanWolf wrote:
BornFree: I for one am not blowing your guy off, although I hate Fox News. I don't doubt for a second that Hamas is every bit as awful as this guy says it is. The question is, does that justify violence? Is the violence going to have ANY effect at all, aside from making Hamas MORE popular? If you look at it from a historical perspective, it's never worked before. Why should it work now?
I'm not answering for Bornfree but my response is what do you do when someone wants to eliminate you and continually sends rockets into innocent neighbourhoods rather than targeting the military?
Do you just sit there and try to reason with them forever or do you finally defend yourself?
If you are looking at history then you will see that many defensive attacks have stopped a war. Who wants war? Nobody in their right mind.
ShamanWolf wrote:
If you say that Christian terrorists aren't Christians because they're terrorists, you can also say that Muslim terrorists aren't Muslims because they're terrorists. Both religions have passages prohibiting violence, and passages advocating it.
Again speaking for myself, I would say that the Muslim terrorists are not true Muslims either. One thing, though, the Koran does say to kill those who will not convert to Islam and it also says to kill any Muslim who converts to another religion. I don't believe most Muslims take this literally but I do think the terrorists do.
Now before you jump all over me stating that the Old Testament has many similar verses, I must remind you that for the last 2000 years the words of Jesus says to love your enemies.
The Koran came from a vision of one man over 600 years after Jesus spoke those words.
As I read the Koran, I find that much of it seems to be plagerized from the Old Testament with some editing to suit the writers desires.
Paul
TentMaker
Posted on: 01/04/2009 11:30
crazyheart wrote:
The world is speaking out again Israeli actions
Crazyheart,
I agree with your list but I wonder why we have never had an outcry about the Hamas rockets. There have been over 6000 of them into innocent gatherings over the last year.
BornFree
Posted on: 01/04/2009 12:21
ShamanWolf wrote:
BornFree: I for one am not blowing your guy off, although I hate Fox News. I don't doubt for a second that Hamas is every bit as awful as this guy says it is. The question is, does that justify violence? Is the violence going to have ANY effect at all, aside from making Hamas MORE popular? If you look at it from a historical perspective, it's never worked before. Why should it work now?
I guess the definition of "violence" is at stake here. Does that eliminate self-defense. I would say that if Israel could put up some kind of a defense shield, that would block any rockets or suicide bombers, they would do it in a minute.
One thing you have to realize is that there are many Palestinians living within the Israel border and live in peace and harmony with their Jewish neighbours. Some of them live on the same streets and work for the same employers.
ShamanWolf wrote:
If you say that Christian terrorists aren't Christians because they're terrorists, you can also say that Muslim terrorists aren't Muslims because they're terrorists. Both religions have passages prohibiting violence, and passages advocating it.
I would say "affimative" to Tent's answer on that.
I would add one thing to that and I have said it many times before. There are many people who claim the title Christian but what I am saying is that a Christian who believes that Jesus died for them and rose, that type of Christian could not be a terrorist with the Lord actually living in his heart.
Motheroffive
Posted on: 01/04/2009 12:38
It is normal, especially given the poor coverage of this issue by the mainstream media (MSM) in the US, to think of the two parties involved as equally bad. However, if you watch the videos I've posted above and read from sources other than Fox News, ABC, etc, you will find a whole other view of the story.
The properties that are occupied by Israel are being illegally taken over by that country. The Israeli government has stopped at nothing to claim these properties and the Palestinians in them have been subjected to destruction of their homes, their livelihoods and their freedom. They do not have adequate food, shelter or water -- in other words, their access to the necessities of life have been cut off or severely constricted to the point where the Palestinians living on the land that they have inhabited for centuries are being eliminated, through one means or another.
Imagine if you were a woman in labour in an ambulance that was being held up at a check-point and your baby died as a result -- imagine if you were the father of children who have no place to live or who you are watching suffering from malnutrition -- imagine, you are an elder of the community who has watched land that is yours (the UN has named these as illegal occupations by Israel) being bull-dozed so that condos for Israelis can be constructed.
Imagine being involved in peaceful protest to get world attention about this situation but, in spite of the UN passing resolutions about the illegality of this action, nothing is done to stop the occupation and loss of human rights of Palestinians. The Palestinians have rockets? That's like a sling-shot in comparison to the military might of the Israel, back by the US - it's rather a reversal of the David and Goliath story. What do you do, watching your community be destroyed and your family and friends suffer and die?
I hope that others here on the Wcafe will stop considering the MSM in the US as a reasonable source of information on this subject and find better sources than this. From the Independent, a UK paper:
Quote:
The plight of the 1.5 million Palestinians crammed into the Gaza Strip was growing more desperate. People have taken shelter in their homes for days and humanitarian agencies warned that water, food and medical supplies were running short.
2) Another voice from that part of Israel belongs to Julia Chaitin, who opposes this war supposedly being fought for her protection. In her simple, beautiful prose, she outlines how this war is "unnecessary, cruel and cynical," and will not bring quiet or "normal" life to the people in the Negev. She says "We will know peace only when we accept the fact that the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have every right to lives of dignity. We will know peace only when we recognize that we must negotiate with Hamas, our enemy, even if we are devastated that the Palestinians did not elect a more moderate party to lead them. We will know peace only when our leaders stop considering our lives cheap and expendable..." In an encouraging development, this essay was published in the Washington Post.
The US is not unbiased in this conflict. They are pro-Israeli and the government positions, and the media, reflect this bias. Please watch the videos I posted above for an analyis from several sources, including Robert Fisk, well-known journalist fro the UK, of the propaganda surrounding the coverage, as well as information on the conflict itself.
graeme
Posted on: 01/05/2009 00:50
bornfree, do you have any knowledge of the history of this conflict over the past seventy years. yes. Palestinians have been firing rockets into Israel. Israel has not been doing that. It has, with far greater effect, been cutting off essential supplies, building walls, bombing, invading, occupying and killing Palestinians for over fifty years. Haven't you noticed that? In fact, if you will trouble to tot up the numbers of dead, you will note the rather larger numbers on the Palestinian side.
Or do you hold the simple minded view that palestinians fire rockets just because they's arabs and them arabs is evil. I suspect you do.
As to the comment that palestinians and jews live in harmony in Israel, like hell they do. Palestinians are subject to discriminatory laws. they have also been subject to frequent personal attack.
The did live in harmony at one time - but that was before the creation of Israel.
graeme
The_Omnissiah
Posted on: 01/05/2009 01:23
TentMaker wrote:
I'm not answering for Bornfree but my response is what do you do when someone wants to eliminate you and continually sends rockets into innocent neighbourhoods rather than targeting the military?
Figure out something that will stop them by solving the problem, not antagonizing them...
TentMaker wrote:
Do you just sit there and try to reason with them forever or do you finally defend yourself?
No...you don't try to reason with them forever...but trying to reason in the first place would be a good idea, seeing as how the Israeli government doesn't tend to negotiate with anyone...
TentMaker wrote:
If you are looking at history then you will see that many defensive attacks have stopped a war. Who wants war? Nobody in their right mind.
If you were looking at history, you would see that negotiation is always preferable to violence. And by "defensive attacks" (an oxymoron) I assume you mean pre-emptive strikes? How many have stopped wars? Please, give me some examples. From my knowledge of history pre-emptive strikes tend to stir up a hornets nest of people who now not only are going to war with you...but are going to war with you pissed off.
War is bad, but prolonged war is worse. Have you ever read Sun Tzu's "The Art of War"? Or watched the history channel? Or heard anything about war?
Operation Desert Storm...fast, decisive, few casualties and relative cost.
World War One...long...drawn out...dug in...enormous casualties, incredible expense.
A fast, straight up fight is always preferablt to a guerilla war, or long drawn out campaign if your a government.
TentMaker wrote:
Again speaking for myself, I would say that the Muslim terrorists are not true Muslims either.
They most certainly are not Muslims.
TentMaker wrote:
One thing, though, the Koran does say to kill those who will not convert to Islam
Umm...where does it say this? Please quote the Sura.
TentMaker wrote:
and it also says to kill any Muslim who converts to another religion. I don't believe most Muslims take this literally but I do think the terrorists do.
Again, please quote this.
TentMaker wrote:
Now before you jump all over me stating that the Old Testament has many similar verses, I must remind you that for the last 2000 years the words of Jesus says to love your enemies.
So...why do you have the Old testament in the bible then if you obviously think that it's teachings are contrary to Jesus'? (peace be upon him).
TentMaker wrote:
The Koran came from a vision of one man over 600 years after Jesus spoke those words.
So...? Are you saying that because the Qur'an also has egalitarian teachings like Jesus (pbuh)? Not suprising considering Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet just like Muhammad (pbuh) was...
The Bible includes the old testament, which was around for 2000 years before Jesus (pbuh)...Does that make the Bible...wrong?
TentMaker wrote:
As I read the Koran, I find that much of it seems to be plagerized from the Old Testament with some editing to suit the writers desires.
The same with the bible...
As-Salaamu Alaikum
-Omni
Birthstone
Posted on: 01/05/2009 10:04
I have opinions on a lot of things, and generally, I'm happy to share. This just baffles me and makes me feel sad.
I am also very worried about the protest marches around the world. They are very dangerous right now, I think.
crazyheart
Posted on: 01/05/2009 10:21
Birthstone, I agree with you. As I watch the news, it seems like a powder keg getting ready to explode.
graeme
Posted on: 01/05/2009 12:29
The protest marches are dangerous? Well, they can be. I've seen protest that became very bad news.
But surely no protests at all would be even more dangerous.
Interesting to see Canada following bush to lay the whole blame on Hamas, as though this all started with Hamas firing rockets. And as if Israel has never, never, in anyway done anything to harm Palestinians.
graeme
Motheroffive
Posted on: 01/05/2009 12:32
What worries you about people around the world protesting the poor treatment of those who are trapped in Gaza with no way out, when the Israeli army is moving into that land, which is illegally occupied?
graeme
Posted on: 01/05/2009 15:46
not sure whether you meant me or birthstone. Anyway, I certainly support the protests. There are dangers in them. There always are when you turn people into the streets. But it's a lot more dangerous when people do not protest such behaviour.
graeme
The_Omnissiah
Posted on: 01/05/2009 22:47
Yes, I was happy to see the palestinian-canadians protesting on the news today. A Protest is always better than bombings ><
Comments
graeme
Posted on: 12/27/2008 21:45
well, it goes back to a huge mistake made after WW2, the creation of the state of Israel, taking away other people's land to do it.
We can forget all the biblical chatter about promised lands. Even if one believes that and forgets all the in and outs and controversies of it, the European Jews who flooded into Israel were almost certainly not the descendents of ancient Israel. They were Ashkenaze, converts to judaism from southern russia and neighbouring regions. (The descendants of bibilcal Israel are the sephardic Jews, some of whom lived in Palestine - and quite likely palestinians descemded from converts to Islam, that is, the people who are now being bombed.) There is no biblical or moral justification for the creation of Israel. And no practical justification, either. For western powers to plant a Jewish state which displaced arab peoples was pure idiocy bound to lead to eternal trouble, rather like making arab moslems pay the price for the long history of anti-semiitism in the Christian west.
It has in the process made huge changes in Judaism, developing a strain of it that resembles the most brutal aggressive features of American evangelical fundamentalism. Suitably enough, this element of judaism has developed a powerful north american lobby, powerful enough to hold all leading Ameican political figures hostage. In montreal, I could see the effects of the lobby taking hold on the Jewish community, one by one getting control of virtually all major elements of Jewish community organization. It has seriously split Jewish communities in both Canada and the US, but is very, very powerful. One of its nuttier leaders, incidentally, is a trusted advisor to Stephen Harper.
Within Israel, the memory of the holocaust combined with the wars to establish Israel have given dominance to the most aggressive elements of Israeli society. They think only in terms of military solutions through the destruction of all enemies. We are now watching that destruction in Gaza.
I spent much of my life in the Ashkenze community in Montreal. These are people I love dearly. I always was aware that the smaller palestinian (sephardic) Jewish community disliked the Ashkenze, but I was always sure it must be something wrong with the sephardics. It has disappointed me terribly to realize the sephardics were right, that the Askenazes, in particular, of Israel have done something terrible to Judaism.
There will be no end to the fighting without the virtual destruction of one side or the other. The logic of Israel's position is that conventional and limited wars can nver fully protect it because it can never establish full military control over its neighbours. The neighbours are too many and too large. So Israel can win a hundred wars and win only delay.
Its enemies, however, need to win only once, and it is all over as a tiny Israel could be speedily overrun and dismantled.
The obvious answer for Israel is more wars to expand the terrority and increase the population of Israel so it cannot be easily overrun - and it can do that largely because it has in the background the threat of the only nuclear arsenal in the region. (Iran, for all the hysteria, is nowhere even close to having comparable power.)
Thus the treatment of Palestine which has been going on for years. And the US will continue to support Israel in whatever it does - supplying the aircaft and the bombs and the tanks and the rockets that make Israel such a powerful military force.
And don't expect Bush and Obama to be as much as an inch apart on this one.
graeme
crazyheart
Posted on: 12/27/2008 21:59
thank you graeme for taking the time to post this.
ninjafaery
Posted on: 12/28/2008 12:21
...and now that the egg is cracked, it can't be unbroken......
That's what we're left with. Israel is a fact, like it or not. No one can just pack up and leave with everthing reverting back to the way it was. Any problem-solving needs to accept this.
Thanks Graeme, for a clear synopsis.
graeme
Posted on: 12/28/2008 12:36
you're right, ninja. In fact, the egg is double broken. Once the western powers - and it was largely the western powers - decided to plant an Israeli state there, they had an obligation to ensure that the displaced Palestinians were looked after and that Israel could be secure without the need to become the world's most militaristic state. They didn't do either.
When the US finally did decide to take action, its decision favoured the creation of Israel as a highly militaristic state. In the long run, that does no favour to either Israel or Judaism.
At this point, any answer has to address a way to cut down on Israeli military power while pledging israelii security. At the same time, the world has a pretty massive job in stimulating enormous changes in the economy and security of Paliestinians. Nobody has shown much enthusiasm for either of those. And hanging over it all is the question of what to do with that Israeli arsenal of some 250 nuclear armed missiles.
As always, it's much easier to create problems than to solve them.
graeme
trishcuit
Posted on: 12/29/2008 03:15
Kind of like Ireland with the Protestants and the Catholics and the IRA and such.:
If you're not confused then you don't know what's going on.
ShamanWolf
Posted on: 12/29/2008 10:54
Just because the Ashkenazes of Israel, propelled by various historical factors, screwed a lot of stuff up doesn't make it OK to be prejudiced against Canadian Ashkenazes. It doesn't make the Palestinian community right. There is no reason to 'dislike' an entire ethnic group. That'll just get them more defensive anyway.
There are crazies in Israel, though, for sure. Apparently, some of them think Bush is too easy on the Arabs - BUSH - and "the only possible reason is anti-Semitism".
GadZooks
Posted on: 12/29/2008 14:01
Is this the Burning Bush of old?
Though it was consumed by fire it did not burn.
GadZooks
Posted on: 12/29/2008 14:08
As I understand it, there was a 6 month cease-fire which came to an end. Hamas launched a couple rockets across the border, and then all hell broke loose once again.
Yesterday, much to Israel's (and the world's) confusion, the Palastinian rockets slowed. Does anyone know why?
I find the whole ordeal a mixture of sickening/frightening/fascinating. In the Western world, we tend to sympathise with Israel. But I can understand the Palastinian side, too - I would be pretty ticked if I was told I had to move and I would not be compensated.
Where I get really confused is - I can't tell which side is more right. I don't like the war tactics used by the Palastinians, but I also don't like the seeming continuously expanding borders and the diplomatic bullying of Israel.
I think its going to get worse before it gets better.
GadZooks
Posted on: 12/29/2008 14:26
One more comment - does anyone else find the fact that the Western media are being kept out of Gaza a little unnerving?
graeme
Posted on: 12/29/2008 14:44
I'm not prejudiced against Canadian ashkenazis. Nor did I say I was. Indeed, the Canadian Jewish community itself is very split. But those with power advance the pretence it is not split, and all Jews are united in support of Israel. They are not, and the critics of Israel are to be found among both sephardics and ashkenazis. However, the critical ones are finding it difficult to get a voice in the Jewish media or in insitutions.
The US has used its veto to protect Israel from UN criticsm. It's been doing that consistently for 40 years as Israel has consistently ignored international law and UN resolutions in its treatment of Palestinians.
graeme
The_Omnissiah
Posted on: 12/30/2008 19:01
Thank you graeme for you replies, they are insightful and I know you have much knowledge in this subject. For anyone who wants to know my opinion...see my rant in "Oh sure, now it's news" thread in the Global Issues section.
As-Salaamu Alaikum
-Omni
trishcuit
Posted on: 12/31/2008 14:32
Ah yes, the "Oh sure now it's news" thread. You get to meet the TROLL. (The Inkeeper.)
graeme
Posted on: 12/31/2008 15:38
We should be careful not to pile all the blame on Israel and Palestine. Remember how this started.
It began with the movement for zionism, an understandable but wrong-headed movement to re create an Israel where ancient Israel had been, something like a movement of my French ancestors to re-establish themselves on the russian steppes where they (perhaps) had originated. Following the Israeli model, my French ancestors would have begun random killing of russians in a terrorist movement, then flooded in to displace the local people.
At that point, most of the western world, operating through the UN, would formally recognize the new state, neatly ignoring the million or so refugees thus created who would now spend the rest of their lives effectively in a prison camp.
Yes, that was us who did that moronic thing - recognizing a state built on stolen land, creating cities of refugees in a poor and tiny area. Having done that, we left Israel to defend itself - a choice which created a militarism which has no connection with Judaism, and creating a state which has bullied the largely helpless Palestinians for generations. What on earth did we think was going to happen when we did that?
When you look at the history of it all, and you look for first causes that began all this, the Palestinians are the least guilty, if guilty at all. There is guilt on the zionist side, going back to the terrorism of the 40s and the willingness to displace other people. But, looking at t he horror of the holocaust, the zionist attitude is at least understandable.
What is not understandable is the real creation of this problem by giving official sanction t o what zionists wanted. We are the ones who did that. And, instead of working on a solution to the problem, the US has led the way to far bigger problems with "foreign aid" that has made Israel a major military power - even with nuclear weapons.
As was said many years ago in Pogo, we have met the enemy, and he is us.
graeme
stoneeyeball
Posted on: 12/31/2008 18:42
Maybe I can go to France and reclaim the land taken from my ancestors during the Reformation (Huguenots) for the 'religious' twist and the Revolution. So they have to take someone else's land, big deal!!! They could also throw in an apology and compensation from the Vatican. I'll form my own country, have "Mon Pays" by Gilles Vigneault as the national anthem, and apply for foreign assistance. And, if France gives me too much trouble, I'll separate! After WW2, they should have said to Israel, "Get over it, people, and over whatever trip you're on." (I'm not anti-Israel, I'm anti-bandwagon).
BornFree
Posted on: 01/02/2009 21:10
I find this very interesting!!
Son of Hamas Leader Gives Glimpse Into Terror Organization
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,475226,00.html
trishcuit
Posted on: 01/02/2009 22:07
wow what a great scoop! Irrefutable proof.
graeme
Posted on: 01/02/2009 22:10
ever hear of the stern gang?
graeme
Motheroffive
Posted on: 01/02/2009 22:50
I haven't heard of the stern gang but any story from Fox News is suspect right off the bat. Given that this young man is now an evangelical christian, of course he's going to hold this view. What's newsworthy here?
graeme
Posted on: 01/02/2009 23:03
terrorism in the middle east began with zionist terrorism in the 1940s. It was directed against moslems, and also against the British. One of the leading terrorist orgamnizations was the Stern Gang. Indeed, many of Israel's politicians for over a decade came from the ranks of zionist terrorists.
More broadly, many nations use terrorism and have done so for a very long time. It's surely no secret that the US has been training latin american terrorists for decades. It also, and knowingly, supplied Saddam for much of his deeds. The French used terrorism on a wide scale in both Algeria and Vietnam. The bombingcampaigns, on both sides, in the second world war were terrorism and were meant to be terrorism. But we only call it terrorism when the other side does it.
graeme
BornFree
Posted on: 01/03/2009 10:48
I haven't heard of the stern gang but any story from Fox News is suspect right off the bat. Given that this young man is now an evangelical christian, of course he's going to hold this view. What's newsworthy here?
MOF, I'm not really surprised by your bias but did you know that Foxnews has more viewers than CNN, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, ABC combined. Doesn't that say something for their credibilty even though they may not report what you want to hear?
Many that claim they are a right wing news station are only seeing the parts that are right wing. If you are judging their news by the talk shows such as O'Reilly then you are missing out on a well balanced reporting network.
The other thing is, why would you blow this guy off because he became a Christian. Can't you see the irony here? This guy was a terrorist and God rescued him from that. He is thankful and you are diminishing this thing we should all be rejoicing over.
Did you not have a super new transition when you became a Christian?
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 01/03/2009 12:48
December 28, 2008
Jewish Voice for Peace joins millions around the world, including the 1,000 Israelis who protested in the streets of Tel Aviv this weekend, in condemning ongoing Israeli attacks on Gaza. We call for an immediate end to attacks on all civilians, whether Palestinian or Israeli.
Israel's slow strangulation of Gaza through blockade has caused widespread suffering to the 1.5 million people of Gaza due to lack of food, electricity, water treatment supplies and medical equipment. It is a violation of humanitarian law and has been widely condemned around the world.
In resisting this strangulation, Hamas resumed launching rockets and mortars from Gaza into southern Israel, directly targeting civilians, which is also a war crime. Over the years, these poorly made rockets have been responsible for the deaths of 15 Israelis since 2004.
Every country, Israel included, has the right and obligation to protect its citizens. The recent ceasefire between Israel and Hamas in Gaza shows that diplomatic agreements are the best protection for civilian life.
Moreover, massive Israeli air strikes have proven an indiscriminate and brutal weapon. In just two days, the known death toll is close to 300, and the attacks are continuing. By targeting the infrastructure of a poor and densely populated area, Israel has ensured widespread civilian casualties among this already suffering and vulnerable population.
This massive destruction of Palestinian life will not protect the citizens of Israel. It is illegal and immoral and should be condemned in the strongest possible terms. And it threatens to ignite the West Bank and add flames to the other fires burning in the Middle East and beyond for years to come.
The timing of this attack, during the waning days of a US administration that has undertaken a catastrophic policy toward the Middle East and during the run-up to an Israeli election, suggests an opportunistic agenda for short-term political gain at an immense cost in Palestinian lives. In the long run this policy will benefit no-one except those who always profit from war and exploitation. Only a just and lasting peace, achieved through a negotiated agreement, can provide both Palestinians and Israelis the security they want and deserve.
quoted directly from Jewish Voice for Peace
graeme
Posted on: 01/03/2009 13:41
Gee, born free. if more people watch fox news than any other, that must mean fox news is the best. and if more people drink coke than organge juice, that must prove coke is healthier than orange juice.
And Christianity saved a man from being a terrorist? Gee whiz, bornfree, the terrorist who blew up a Cuban airliner is a Christian, and he is now being protected by a Christian government. The soldiers who murdered 200,000 mayan civilians in Guatemala over the past forty years were Christians. The Naziis who murdered millions of Jews were Christians. The Americans who carpet bombed southeast asian cities and murdered over two millions vietnamese cities were christian. So I would never have thought that becoming Christian saves you from being a terrorist.
Gee. I wish I was smart like you.
graeme
BornFree
Posted on: 01/03/2009 16:52
Gee, born free. if more people watch fox news than any other, that must mean fox news is the best. and if more people drink coke than organge juice, that must prove coke is healthier than orange juice.
I never said it was the best, I just said that it is slurred by radical left wingers, like you, but is watched by more people than the ones you watch.
It doesn't surprise me that you don't agree with anything that doesn't think exactly like you because you are so educated.
As to the orange juice analogy you have a warped way of looking at statistics. That just means that more people prefer coke than orange juice and according to this analogy it must mean that more people like Foxnews.
And Christianity saved a man from being a terrorist? Gee whiz, bornfree, the terrorist who blew up a Cuban airliner is a Christian, and he is now being protected by a Christian government.
My goodness greybee,
You are so cynical. What makes you think this man is a Christian? Because he claims it?
And where in society do we have a Christian government except through Jesus Christ himself?
We do have governments that are controlled by other religions in the world though. Have you ever criticised them?
The soldiers who murdered 200,000 mayan civilians in Guatemala over the past forty years were Christians.
They were?? Where are their claims about that? And you claim to be a man with historical background. I would say it is more "hysterical" background.
The Naziis who murdered millions of Jews were Christians.
Oh sure! There you go again stirring up trouble.
Did all those Naziis claim a Christ indwelled heart or did a couple of them use the term Christian as an excuse for their hellbent actions. If you knew your bible you would know that they were not following the actions of Christ.
Obviously you have not given your heart to Jesus Christ or you would know the difference.
The Americans who carpet bombed southeast asian cities and murdered over two millions vietnamese cities were christian.
Again and again with your wide brush. Give me a quote from just one of those soldiers who claimed to be Christian and were acting in the name of God.
C'mon big history professor. Show me your evidence.
So I would never have thought that becoming Christian saves you from being a terrorist.
I didn't think that you would think that way!
Gee. I wish I was smart like you.
graeme
I have to say that you are showing your brilliance by your childlike responses.
I have to admit that I am not smart like you and I'm very glad about it!
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 01/03/2009 17:11
Again and again with your wide brush. Give me a quote from just one of those soldiers who claimed to be Christian and were acting in the name of God.
'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did.
George W Bush, Commander in Chief US Forces
crazyheart
Posted on: 01/03/2009 17:21
lb. did the
make you do it?
BornFree
Posted on: 01/03/2009 18:05
Again and again with your wide brush. Give me a quote from just one of those soldiers who claimed to be Christian and were acting in the name of God.
'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did.
George W Bush, Commander in Chief US Forces
You know LB, I have admired some of your responses over time but I have to say that when you quote something third-hand from Nabil Shaath, who was a Palestinian foreign minister, and attribute it to George Bush, I have to call you on just about everything you have posted on this site.
I realize that you want to believe this so bad that you would want to do this but to actually do it just put you in the toilet with our petty little Leftwinger graeme.
Abbas denies Bush's 'mission from God' remark
A statement in Abbas's name released by his office said an excerpt from an interview with Palestinian Information Minister Nabil Shaath due to be broadcast by the BBC in which Shaath described a meeting with Bush in June 2003 gave a "completely false" account.
In the interview for the series, Israel and the Arabs, Shaath described the meeting, at which he said Abbas was present.
"President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did. And then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq.' And I did,'" Shaath said.
"This report is not true," the Abbas statement said today. "I have never heard President Bush talking about religion as a reason behind the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. President Bush has never mentioned that in front of me on any occasion and specifically not during my visit in 2003."
Shaath could not be reached for comment.
Apologies accepted but not anticipated!
Bjorne
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 01/03/2009 19:52
You are right Bornfree the quote is in dispute. It was stated on a BBC documentary about the Iraq war and subsequently denied by the White House. source The BBC Press Office
As was this quote from the Mennonite Weekly Review columnist Jack Brubaker, "I trust God speaks through me. Without that I couldn't do my job."
source Washington Post George W. Bush and the G-Word
The actual words may be in dispute but few would deny that Bush is deeply convicted that God works through him and who are we to deny his belief that God directs his actions.
Not disputed is the following...
Because of this, the president’s argument for the war has come to rest primarily on the spread of democracy and freedom in the Middle East. And he has repeatedly linked this justification to God’s plans for the world. “Freedom is not America’s gift to the world,” he is fond of saying. “It is God’s gift to humanity.” He reiterated this in the last presidential debate, when Bob Schieffer asked him about his statement that he had “checked with a higher authority” than his own father before the invasion of Iraq. The president responded, “I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That’s what I believe. And that’s been a part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. And I can’t tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march.”
source The National Catholic Reporter Does God support democracy?
or there is also this theory....
I wondered myself whether this was George Bush or whether it was the speechwriter. Mike Gerson is a skillful speechwriter, a graduate of Wheaton College, an evangelical himself. So one has to always wonder, how much is it the speechwriter, and how much is it the president? We'll never know. …
PBS Frontline The Jesus Factor
BornFree
Posted on: 01/03/2009 20:52
Because of this, the president’s argument for the war has come to rest primarily on the spread of democracy and freedom in the Middle East. And he has repeatedly linked this justification to God’s plans for the world. “Freedom is not America’s gift to the world,” he is fond of saying. “It is God’s gift to humanity.” He reiterated this in the last presidential debate, when Bob Schieffer asked him about his statement that he had “checked with a higher authority” than his own father before the invasion of Iraq. The president responded, “I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That’s what I believe. And that’s been a part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. And I can’t tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march.”
source The National Catholic Reporter Does God support democracy?
You do not allow God to rule your heart if you don't believe that God has designed us all to be free.
We should all be striving for this from our immediate families, our neighbourhoods, our cities, our provinces, our country and the world.
Admit it. You have a hate on for G Bush because he represents the Right and nothing will sway you.
It's an "us against them" philosophy that you follow and your heart will never be right until you give it completely to God.
Motheroffive
Posted on: 01/03/2009 21:22
Here are some videos about what's happening in Gaza and the other Occupied Territories in Israel from a source that I have been informed is reliable. They are long but worth-while if one wants to understand what's happening.
crazyheart
Posted on: 01/03/2009 22:15
The news out of Gaza right now is not good. Israel has launched a ground attack. Hamas is responding. Innocent children and citizens are being killed. Violence does not work. they have to get back to a cease fire and find a way to establish peace through diplomacy, imo.
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 01/03/2009 22:38
It's an "us against them" philosophy that you follow and your heart will never be right until you give it completely to God.
Not at all Bornfree, it is a "no war is justified" philosophy that I follow and this philosophy comes from my heartfelt experiences that God created a world of beauty and that we desecrate Creation by destroying it.
LB
We have an extraordinary God. God is a mighty God, but this God needs you. When someone is hungry, bread doesn't come down from heaven. When God wants to feed the hungry, you and I must feed the hungry. And now God wants peace in the world.
Archbishop Desmond Tutu
The_Omnissiah
Posted on: 01/04/2009 01:44
I never said it was the best, I just said that it is slurred by radical left wingers, like you, but is watched by more people than the ones you watch.
So it's watched by more people than other news stations eh...? Please back this up with some stats. Also, does that really mean anything? More people voted for George W. than anyone else...does that make ol' george a keeper?
Funny, you seem to be like that sometimes as well...
Ok, I've read this through several times....what? Are you agreeing with him? Are you saying it's a dumb analogy? Are you assuming some signifigant difference between the meanings of "perfer" and "like" ?
You are so cynical. What makes you think this man is a Christian? Because he claims it?
Umm...yes? Your a Christian because you claim it. I do expect you'll start to defend yourself by saying "well if you look at scripture..." or "...Jesus has shown me the way...".
Honestly, if it was up to that, then everyone who wanted to call themselves a christian could be one because it's all about your interpretation no? Oh wait, thats how it is.
I'm a Muslim because I claim it. He's a Christians because he claims it.
Now I see where your coming from, and that some people obviously aren't christian, but i'm just playing the devil's advocate and throwing that out there. It's an experiment in perception-reality.
Again it's all about what people claim.
Are you sure they are controlled by "other religions"? Take Saudi Arabia...a country inhabitted by a shitload of Muslims... even though it may claim to be a "Muslim country", I can prove otherwise. So please, name some of these countries controlled by other religions please.
What graeme was trying to get at I think was that these countries and people were christians in the majority, just as Muslims are the majority in Saudi Arabia...
Where are your claims for being a christian from? Sounds rediculous eh? Well i'm sure a lot of those people would be flabberghasted by people questioning their christianity as well...
Did all those Naziis claim a Christ indwelled heart or did a couple of them use the term Christian as an excuse for their hellbent actions.
Well, all the members of the Wehrmarcht swore this oath:
Seeing as christianity was not only the prevelent religion in germany at the time, but only state authorized one....which "god" do you think they were pledging this oath to hmm? Whilst declaring this oath, they would take hold of a lowered german flag with their left hand, and hold their right hand up, the thumb and first two fingers outstretched. This had the dual meaning of representing both the trinity before which they swore the oath, and the third reich to which they swore it.
Nevermind the "Gott mitt uns" inscribed on all their belts.
You may not see them as christians, but i'm sure a lot of them felt the "Christian God" was on their side.
Don't you see!!! That's just it!!! If you knew your Qur'an you'd know that neither the Hamas, or this person who claimed to be a muslim, were following God's message conveyed through his prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
He himself mentioned 72 virgins. Any self-respecting Muslim knows that there is NO MENTION WHATSOEVER of 72 virgins to you can bang in the afterlife...the ONLY REFERENCE of virgins in the afterlife in the Holy Qur'an, is that your companions will be virgin-pure, as in Chaste, Pure, Uncorrupted, et cetera...
This just shows that he was following some twisted, heretical, evil, and hateful bastard offshoot of Islam the media sometime's labels "Islamism". So if he was not a true Muslim...then how can he claim to say Islam is evil? And that we should all go "study" to learn the errors of our ways?
He's one to talk...
Well, I actually have...I was confirmed at age 12...but I realized my personal mistake and took my heart back from the slave, and gave it to the Master.
I cannot speak for graeme, but I think he has come to know God through his messanger Jesus (peace be upon him) and you really have no right, nor authority to judge that relationship.
Speaking of wide brush, have you seen what the media has done to Muslims recently?
Anne Frank wrote in her diary "When a christian does something wrong, it's his fault...when a Jew does something wrong, it's every Jew's fault...". That sad reality has now dawned on Islam...
So I would never have thought that becoming Christian saves you from being a terrorist.
It's an "us against them" philosophy that you follow and your heart will never be right until you give it completely to God.
No, it's not. People who say "Israel is innocent, we have to unite against the evils of the incrouching Muslism!!" follow a "Us-versus-them" philosophy.
graeme is quite the opposite, he has seen through the media's distortion, and sought the truth, and understands that not everything is as it seems, something you ahve yet to realize apparently.
As-Salaamu Alaikum BornFree, and graeme.
-Omni
Motheroffive
Posted on: 01/04/2009 02:15
MOF, I'm not really surprised by your bias but did you know that Foxnews has more viewers than CNN, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, ABC combined. Doesn't that say something for their credibilty even though they may not report what you want to hear?
Bornfree, I do not watch TV at all (one exception - I get CBC TV on rabbit ears and watch "Little Mosque on the Prairie" when I'm not busy) mainly because of the corporate bias that permeates it.
The other thing is, why would you blow this guy off because he became a Christian. Can't you see the irony here? This guy was a terrorist and God rescued him from that. He is thankful and you are diminishing this thing we should all be rejoicing over.
I am not blowing him off because he became a Christian - I am skeptical about this story because it is set up to marginalize those who are Muslim. It is sanctimonious in tone, as well. I also personally doubt that this man has changed much -- my thought is that he has put on another religious form. There are those who embrace the spirit of the law and others who embrace the letter, regardless of how it's framed in the religious context. This leopard doesn't appear to have changed its spots.
Did you not have a super new transition when you became a Christian?
Yes, I did and it was a beginning of learning how vast and mysterious love really is -- all embracing and unconditionally inclusive. I am grateful for that. However, I don't think that experiences of this nature are reserved for Christians -- Tom Harper's book, "For Christ's Sake" has an excellent story about a well (symbolic of Love) and what humanity did with that well. The story was called "The Spring of Living Waters" - have you read it?
Motheroffive
Posted on: 01/04/2009 02:25
I was asked to post this article here as it's related to the discussion - They hate us for our bombs.
After what happened today in Gaza, this article is all the more relevant.
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 01/04/2009 09:02
Excellent article MotherofFive. This was the part that stood out for me....
In a 2006 election that everyone agrees was fair, Palestinians chose a Hamas government. “We” immediately withheld aid to show disapproval.
Israel illegally withheld revenues like customs. The U.S. built up anti-Hamas forces. A virtual Palestinian civil war ensued, and Hamas took over Gaza, not exactly first prize. Israel tightened its existing Gaza blockade on most goods and all exports with the explicit purpose, repeated this week by its Prime Minister to explain the bombing, of pressuring Gazans to turn on Hamas. This amounts to punishing innocent people for political ends, which is pretty close to the conventional definition of terrorism.
For democractic countries, particularly countries that start wars to "protect democracy", such actions are the height of hypocrisy.
The Palestinians state they used the rocket attacks to bring attention to the blockade. It has been argued they could have done so in a peaceful manner - like protest marches - they did and no one paid any attention. We have governments that claim they want non-violent solutions and yet systematically create the environments that will lead to violence.
LB
Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.
Aristotle (384-322 BC)
ShamanWolf
Posted on: 01/04/2009 10:16
BornFree: I for one am not blowing your guy off, although I hate Fox News. I don't doubt for a second that Hamas is every bit as awful as this guy says it is. The question is, does that justify violence? Is the violence going to have ANY effect at all, aside from making Hamas MORE popular? If you look at it from a historical perspective, it's never worked before. Why should it work now?
If you say that Christian terrorists aren't Christians because they're terrorists, you can also say that Muslim terrorists aren't Muslims because they're terrorists. Both religions have passages prohibiting violence, and passages advocating it.
ShamanWolf
Posted on: 01/04/2009 10:16
G. Bush's wars had nothing to do with religion. Just oil.
crazyheart
Posted on: 01/04/2009 11:00
A complex problem - no simplistic resolution.
This is a simple break down as i see it. Please feel free to correct me.
TentMaker
Posted on: 01/04/2009 11:27
BornFree: I for one am not blowing your guy off, although I hate Fox News. I don't doubt for a second that Hamas is every bit as awful as this guy says it is. The question is, does that justify violence? Is the violence going to have ANY effect at all, aside from making Hamas MORE popular? If you look at it from a historical perspective, it's never worked before. Why should it work now?
I'm not answering for Bornfree but my response is what do you do when someone wants to eliminate you and continually sends rockets into innocent neighbourhoods rather than targeting the military?
Do you just sit there and try to reason with them forever or do you finally defend yourself?
If you are looking at history then you will see that many defensive attacks have stopped a war. Who wants war? Nobody in their right mind.
If you say that Christian terrorists aren't Christians because they're terrorists, you can also say that Muslim terrorists aren't Muslims because they're terrorists. Both religions have passages prohibiting violence, and passages advocating it.
Again speaking for myself, I would say that the Muslim terrorists are not true Muslims either. One thing, though, the Koran does say to kill those who will not convert to Islam and it also says to kill any Muslim who converts to another religion. I don't believe most Muslims take this literally but I do think the terrorists do.
Now before you jump all over me stating that the Old Testament has many similar verses, I must remind you that for the last 2000 years the words of Jesus says to love your enemies.
The Koran came from a vision of one man over 600 years after Jesus spoke those words.
As I read the Koran, I find that much of it seems to be plagerized from the Old Testament with some editing to suit the writers desires.
Paul
TentMaker
Posted on: 01/04/2009 11:30
The world is speaking out again Israeli actions
Crazyheart,
I agree with your list but I wonder why we have never had an outcry about the Hamas rockets. There have been over 6000 of them into innocent gatherings over the last year.
BornFree
Posted on: 01/04/2009 12:21
BornFree: I for one am not blowing your guy off, although I hate Fox News. I don't doubt for a second that Hamas is every bit as awful as this guy says it is. The question is, does that justify violence? Is the violence going to have ANY effect at all, aside from making Hamas MORE popular? If you look at it from a historical perspective, it's never worked before. Why should it work now?
I guess the definition of "violence" is at stake here. Does that eliminate self-defense. I would say that if Israel could put up some kind of a defense shield, that would block any rockets or suicide bombers, they would do it in a minute.
One thing you have to realize is that there are many Palestinians living within the Israel border and live in peace and harmony with their Jewish neighbours. Some of them live on the same streets and work for the same employers.
If you say that Christian terrorists aren't Christians because they're terrorists, you can also say that Muslim terrorists aren't Muslims because they're terrorists. Both religions have passages prohibiting violence, and passages advocating it.
I would say "affimative" to Tent's answer on that.
I would add one thing to that and I have said it many times before. There are many people who claim the title Christian but what I am saying is that a Christian who believes that Jesus died for them and rose, that type of Christian could not be a terrorist with the Lord actually living in his heart.
Motheroffive
Posted on: 01/04/2009 12:38
It is normal, especially given the poor coverage of this issue by the mainstream media (MSM) in the US, to think of the two parties involved as equally bad. However, if you watch the videos I've posted above and read from sources other than Fox News, ABC, etc, you will find a whole other view of the story.
The properties that are occupied by Israel are being illegally taken over by that country. The Israeli government has stopped at nothing to claim these properties and the Palestinians in them have been subjected to destruction of their homes, their livelihoods and their freedom. They do not have adequate food, shelter or water -- in other words, their access to the necessities of life have been cut off or severely constricted to the point where the Palestinians living on the land that they have inhabited for centuries are being eliminated, through one means or another.
Imagine if you were a woman in labour in an ambulance that was being held up at a check-point and your baby died as a result -- imagine if you were the father of children who have no place to live or who you are watching suffering from malnutrition -- imagine, you are an elder of the community who has watched land that is yours (the UN has named these as illegal occupations by Israel) being bull-dozed so that condos for Israelis can be constructed.
Imagine being involved in peaceful protest to get world attention about this situation but, in spite of the UN passing resolutions about the illegality of this action, nothing is done to stop the occupation and loss of human rights of Palestinians. The Palestinians have rockets? That's like a sling-shot in comparison to the military might of the Israel, back by the US - it's rather a reversal of the David and Goliath story. What do you do, watching your community be destroyed and your family and friends suffer and die?
I hope that others here on the Wcafe will stop considering the MSM in the US as a reasonable source of information on this subject and find better sources than this. From the Independent, a UK paper:
The plight of the 1.5 million Palestinians crammed into the Gaza Strip was growing more desperate. People have taken shelter in their homes for days and humanitarian agencies warned that water, food and medical supplies were running short.
From Jewish Peace News:
2) Another voice from that part of Israel belongs to Julia Chaitin, who opposes this war supposedly being fought for her protection. In her simple, beautiful prose, she outlines how this war is "unnecessary, cruel and cynical," and will not bring quiet or "normal" life to the people in the Negev. She says "We will know peace only when we accept the fact that the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have every right to lives of dignity. We will know peace only when we recognize that we must negotiate with Hamas, our enemy, even if we are devastated that the Palestinians did not elect a more moderate party to lead them. We will know peace only when our leaders stop considering our lives cheap and expendable..." In an encouraging development, this essay was published in the Washington Post.
The US is not unbiased in this conflict. They are pro-Israeli and the government positions, and the media, reflect this bias. Please watch the videos I posted above for an analyis from several sources, including Robert Fisk, well-known journalist fro the UK, of the propaganda surrounding the coverage, as well as information on the conflict itself.
graeme
Posted on: 01/05/2009 00:50
bornfree, do you have any knowledge of the history of this conflict over the past seventy years. yes. Palestinians have been firing rockets into Israel. Israel has not been doing that. It has, with far greater effect, been cutting off essential supplies, building walls, bombing, invading, occupying and killing Palestinians for over fifty years. Haven't you noticed that? In fact, if you will trouble to tot up the numbers of dead, you will note the rather larger numbers on the Palestinian side.
Or do you hold the simple minded view that palestinians fire rockets just because they's arabs and them arabs is evil. I suspect you do.
As to the comment that palestinians and jews live in harmony in Israel, like hell they do. Palestinians are subject to discriminatory laws. they have also been subject to frequent personal attack.
The did live in harmony at one time - but that was before the creation of Israel.
graeme
The_Omnissiah
Posted on: 01/05/2009 01:23
I'm not answering for Bornfree but my response is what do you do when someone wants to eliminate you and continually sends rockets into innocent neighbourhoods rather than targeting the military?
Figure out something that will stop them by solving the problem, not antagonizing them...
No...you don't try to reason with them forever...but trying to reason in the first place would be a good idea, seeing as how the Israeli government doesn't tend to negotiate with anyone...
If you were looking at history, you would see that negotiation is always preferable to violence. And by "defensive attacks" (an oxymoron) I assume you mean pre-emptive strikes? How many have stopped wars? Please, give me some examples. From my knowledge of history pre-emptive strikes tend to stir up a hornets nest of people who now not only are going to war with you...but are going to war with you pissed off.
War is bad, but prolonged war is worse. Have you ever read Sun Tzu's "The Art of War"? Or watched the history channel? Or heard anything about war?
Operation Desert Storm...fast, decisive, few casualties and relative cost.
World War One...long...drawn out...dug in...enormous casualties, incredible expense.
A fast, straight up fight is always preferablt to a guerilla war, or long drawn out campaign if your a government.
They most certainly are not Muslims.
Umm...where does it say this? Please quote the Sura.
Again, please quote this.
So...why do you have the Old testament in the bible then if you obviously think that it's teachings are contrary to Jesus'? (peace be upon him).
So...? Are you saying that because the Qur'an also has egalitarian teachings like Jesus (pbuh)? Not suprising considering Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet just like Muhammad (pbuh) was...
The Bible includes the old testament, which was around for 2000 years before Jesus (pbuh)...Does that make the Bible...wrong?
The same with the bible...
As-Salaamu Alaikum
-Omni
Birthstone
Posted on: 01/05/2009 10:04
I have opinions on a lot of things, and generally, I'm happy to share. This just baffles me and makes me feel sad.
I am also very worried about the protest marches around the world. They are very dangerous right now, I think.
crazyheart
Posted on: 01/05/2009 10:21
Birthstone, I agree with you. As I watch the news, it seems like a powder keg getting ready to explode.
graeme
Posted on: 01/05/2009 12:29
The protest marches are dangerous? Well, they can be. I've seen protest that became very bad news.
But surely no protests at all would be even more dangerous.
Interesting to see Canada following bush to lay the whole blame on Hamas, as though this all started with Hamas firing rockets. And as if Israel has never, never, in anyway done anything to harm Palestinians.
graeme
Motheroffive
Posted on: 01/05/2009 12:32
What worries you about people around the world protesting the poor treatment of those who are trapped in Gaza with no way out, when the Israeli army is moving into that land, which is illegally occupied?
graeme
Posted on: 01/05/2009 15:46
not sure whether you meant me or birthstone. Anyway, I certainly support the protests. There are dangers in them. There always are when you turn people into the streets. But it's a lot more dangerous when people do not protest such behaviour.
graeme
The_Omnissiah
Posted on: 01/05/2009 22:47
Yes, I was happy to see the palestinian-canadians protesting on the news today. A Protest is always better than bombings ><
As-Salaamu Alaikum
-Omni