I think that funding will come through once the numbers become clear

Yes I do think ford should have declared an emergency situation. I have heard that would have started the funding rolling. I also think that could gave brought in more help. For instance army personnel who could have quickly gone door to door in apartments to find the elderly and those who couldn't get out

Ford to "Fishing Buddy" Harper,

"WHAT SHOULD I DO? EVERYONE'S ALREADY PISSED WITH ME, BUT I CAN'T SEEM TO GET IT RIGHT. I DON'T WANT TO LOOK LIKE A TAX AND SPEND WIMP - SHOULD I CALL A STATE OF EMERGENCY?"

"Fishing Buddy" Harper to Ford,

"YOU DO THAT AND KISS ANY CAREER CHANCES FOR YOU OR YOUR BROTHER GOODBYE. MY PATIENCE IS WEARING THIN AND YOU ARE QUICKLY OUTLIVING YOUR USEFULNESS.  YOU ARE NOT TO COST ME ANOTHER PENNY - CAPICE? MAYBE GET YOUR BROTHER TO HAVE THE PROVINCE PAY."

I can;t understand what everyone is saying. A couple of weeks ago they stripped the mayor of all of his discision making. Right? I don;t think he had any power over the emergency thing. He just stood at the mike and read the notes. Maybe if they had given him his power back, he could have declared a state of emergency. People can't have it both ways.

Actually, Ford by provincial legislation is the ONLY person who actually had the power to declare a state of emergency. That was a power that City Council could not take away from him, because it's granted by provincial legislation. 

Now, I think Rob Ford is a buffoon who's an embarrassment to the City of Toronto and the the whole country since Toronto is Canada's largest city and has the biggest international profile. However ...

There are various theories going around as to why he didn't declare a state of emergency. The one he gave (and I've seen emergency management experts in the media who've agreed with him) is that the situation didn't fit a "state of emergency" definition - a state of emergency applies when the entire city is paralyzed and unable to respond to a situation, and as Ford and others have pointed out, even though 300000 people had no power that's hardly the entire city of Toronto (it's not even most of Toronto; not even close to most of Toronto) and the city of Toronto through Toronto Hydro began responding immediately. So the conditions didn't exist.

Others have suggested that Ford liked the perception of being in charge and that as the Mayor he was the public face of the city, but if a state of emergency had been declared, that's when he would have faded into the background and the Deputy Mayor would have taken over.

I'm not sure about federal funding, but from what I've read provincial funding isn't contingent on a state of emergency being declared and the Premier has said that the province will assist. I find it hard to believe that federal funding would depend on a municipal declaration of a state of emergency, since municipalities are creatures of the province and the rules by which a municipality could declare a state of emergency would therefore differ from one province to another, which would create a legislative inconsistency in how federal funds were made available from one community to another.

It could just be that the feds are more sympathetic to Alberta (where the Conservatives win a lot of seats) than they are to Toronto (where they don't win very many by comparison.)

Rev Steven Davis,

Thank you for your input.

I would like to clarify one point that you made:

300 000 customers were without hydro - that means a billable address.  It does not reflect the number of people living for days without heat, etc.  E.g. a customer may well be a house occupied by one to seven or eight people, it may also be a triplex that could have four people per apartment, etc.  Therefore, we do not know precisely how many went without power, but we can know that it was definitely more than 300k.

Excellent clarification, redhead. Thanks for it. 

I understand that a lot of people are going to be footing some of their own bills. What a hardship!!

It must have been difficult to live without power for several days - but not as difficult as it would be in colder parts of the country.   If more money is needed I suspect that it will be supplied from some fund or other.

Many in High River are footing their own bills despite having no earned income.  I doubt that many in Toronto suffered the loss of their home and business simultaneously.  I doubt that many of them will still be couch surfing with relatives and friends six months later.  

As time goes on  I expect we will hear more about the application process for  disaster funding and whether Toronto is eligible.  

redhead

CityPulse 24 said that each  highrise apt. building  counted as one hydro customer. ..if that's true.

In my highrise there are 16 floors , 195 apts..... 1-2-3 bedroom  apts. The general  area where I live in Toronto is loaded with highrises and condos.... so yes.... there sure was and still is  a large number of people affected. 300,000 isn't accurate IMO.

Luckily I was able to stay with my daughter in Barrie, my cat in tow. I lost about $150. worth of food from the fridge and freezer. I threw out everything. I did put frozen  food out on the balcony but it seemed soft, partly thawed maybe. It would have been a lot more costly for those people who had big freezers full.  I don't care  to stock up on frozen food.

I guess I was just happy that Rob Ford didn't act crazy and crack some stupid jokes. I was proud of him such as he is. He should have called an emergency or whoever had the power to do so

. Our building had no water along with no heat or lights. I also had no phone, Rogers.  That compounded the problem. Elderly people living alone perhaps without family  on the higher floors or  16 th. floor. Its  not funny. On one occasion the halls  and stairs emergency lights went out also,  it was  pitch black. Creepy.

Edit

The power went off again about 1:30 a.m. today in my bldg. I freaked out. I thought : "I can't do this anymore"....... I ran around with a flashlight filling up pots full of water  ( I had only  a few bottles to drink ) . I ran water in the bath tub to be able to flush the toilet. I  turned off and unplugged my TV's and computer, made a phone call to my daughter  while I still had the phone. Praise be.....it was only off about 15 min. and we were warned this could happen.

I was brought up in the country with no indoor plumbing or electricity  so I sure do appreciate it and give thanks every day of my life as this guy in the video says:

kaythecurler

Out my back door there's a little strip mall. The power was off from about 2 a.m. on Sun. until Thursday. I came home in the p.m. I wasn't here or out and about in the area to hear what people have to say.

We have a big Price Choppers grocery , a big Shoppers Drug, a TD  bank, a restaurant, pizza shop,dry cleaners, gas station, Country Donuts, a bakery,  2  hairdressers/barbers , Subway food shop , video store, fruit store, 2 clothing shops, shoe repair, variety store, fancy food  basket delivery shop, an  optometrist, and  med. clinics upstairs above the stores.

  Although its only a small plaza all of these people would have lost a fair amount of  revenue I'm assuming. We have a larger  plaza about a mile east of us also without power.

SAtardust, are they allowed to be open?  I realize that they wouldn't have the same revenue as if they had power, but they could still make some money and it might help out those who need to get things.  Many larger places also have generattors.  Before Christmas an area lost power for about an hour and I continued to shop.

chemgal

I don't know. I wasn't here. I was in Barrie at my daughter's place. My grandson was texting on his iphone  ( from Barrie) to  his friends living in the area here . They told him our mall was like a graveyard, pitch black and deserted.....?? We do have a seniors building and a lot of seniors living in the area who probably didn't venture outside on foot re the ice etc.? There were volunteers bringing water to those stranded in highrises I heard on the News.

( I saw on the News that  people were lined up at the Eaton Center  charging up  their iphones or wherever there was electricity, the younger set no doubt )

I've heard that $200k in grocery GCs will be handed out.  Not sure of the process though.

I am a bit confused by what governments decide to help with, and I said the same thing during the AB floods.  The AB government's disaster fund or whatever it's called says they will only give money for things that cannot be insured.  It is possible to get insurance for freezer contents.  Ditto for evucation orders.  Yet those who were evacuated got money for food/shelter.

I don't know what the guidelines in Ontario are.

I'm also confused by the # of 'customers'.  In the apartment we were customers for power.  Currently, we are both listed on the account.  Would hydro have our currently household as one?  In the apartment would the whole complex be one even though there are numerous accounts?

Yes, chemgal, Hydro would refer to the one residence without power, and not refer to the number of people at said residence.

Only yesterday did I see CP24 reporters start to clarify this point.

Did they explain why?  It just seems odd that in a complex that could easily have say 100 listed customers, and 70 separate accounts would be reported as one.

It is not odd.  It is a smoke and mirror attempt to minimalize what is happening. 

Weather related disasters are tough to get true facts on, it seems.  Likely no one wil ever know exactly how many individuals were living without power, how many were able to get to family or friends ellsewhere, what the overall losses were etc..

Stardust - it is amazing how easily homes and stores lose possesions eh.  I recall the mountains of stuff being hauled out of homes and businesses in High River.  The people I know lost EVERYTHING from their finished basement,  fridge and freezer contents from the main floor plus the food in cupboards.  They lost two family vehicles and three motor bikes,   In addition they lost ALL the inventory for their business plus the building plus the business trucks.  Their business is still not generating their usual income.  The parents and children lived in different places until the main floor of their home was declared fit for habitation.  The basement remains a empty shell.

Their experience is not unusual or extreme and is still devastating their lives and those of friends and neighbours.

Yes, losing power for a day or so is tough but isn't  (in my opinion) comparable.

There is a good article in the Post today that outlines at what point financially the provincial government starts to. Kick I only and when the federal government does.

At first glance it sounds like the costs will not be high enough for the federal government

The personal cost for people individually varies from nothing to food and hotels to repairs. A lot will be covered by insurance.

The cost of hydro repairs and whether they will be covered by the utilities, the city, the province or rate payers. Likely a combination I guess.

I remain surprised that so much food was lost in home. Stores , restaurants I get. But I wonder why food wasn't stored outside , where at my house it was colder than minus ten

I guess it depended where you lived.

Hi redhead,

I am doubtful I would have declared a state of emergency.  At least not at the outset. Having 300, 000 plus residents without power would be a concern.  The electrical grid being what it is I am sure that at times one repair restored power to hundreds if not thousands.  300, 000 plus residents are impacted by how many breaks in the system?  Impossible to tell at the outset.

In a Star article written by Cathy Crowe and Allison Kemper I find this comment interesting.

First, the qualifier of unknown (if it truly fits) makes declaring a state of emergency problematic.  If you do not know what the emergency is how can you tell if you are in a state of one?

As far as I am aware the ice storm is only being blamed for one TO death and that was to a homeless man with an alcohol addiction so I'm not even sure that is an accurate designation of cause.

As far as whether or not the Province and Feds will chip in I suspect we will have to wait until the extent of damage is known.  A power outage is not, in and of itself damaging to property in the same way a flood is. Most individual claims will be covered by insurance in the event of actual property damage.  I suspect food spoilage will not be covered and hotel expenses will probably be challenged to some degree.

So as severe and serious as things got for the residents of Toronto it doesn't look like declaring a state of emergency was warranted or would have had any beneficial outcome for the city.

Unfortunately Toronto city politics being the farce that it has allowed itself to become (not entirely the fault of the Mayor, others alleged adults populate the council chamber) means that many spend time posturing to cameras instead of actually getting around to doing their jobs.

Thankfully, emergency services and Toronto Hydro have clearly defined roles and they do not need Toronto City Council to make decisions on their behalf.  They had a plan of attack for restoring power.  The problems appear to have been greater than available personnel resources.  This is not solved by declaring a state of emergency it is solved by getting on a phone and asking neighbouring municipalities if they can pitch in.

As for the re-energizing of individual properties where damage had been done to electrical standpipes my understanding is that repairs needed to be inspected prior to the power being turned back on.  I expect that in events such as this there are not nearly enough inspectors available to check all work done promptly.  I suspect neighbouring municipalities willing to send crews over to assist might have had an inspector or two to spare to help speed things along.  By the time I heard of that problem users without power had gone from hundreds of thousands to maybe hundreds or thousands.

All things considered, while I am sure it was dicey for some I don't think a state of emergency was called for.

Grace and peace to you.

John

The billions of dollars for the west is logical, and I cannot imagine Toronto needing much funding.

The flooding wiped out:

infrastructure:  power, roads, train tracks, schools, sewage, bridges, etc, etc.  

homes:  destroyed....

businesses: destroyed

cars/trucks:  destroyed

farm crops: destroyed

The power loss

fridge and freezer contents compromised / destroyed

cars/buildings: some damage, but relatively small. If my car was old, I would have left it under the tree....but given I wasn't being a fool, I moved it from under the tree.

Both resulted in displaced people and inconvienced people.

no....there is no comparison and I would not anticipate the government forking over at on of money

Note: power workers came from all over Ontario and surrounding areas to work on the downed lines, replace parts, get power restored.  These additional costs will be born by someone, not sure where that funding will come from, as it would be the same as when workers went out west to do the same, or to quebec, ottawa, new yor, etc for power outages in the past.

There is a great comparison to be made: by population and tax dollars.  Also, survivng a flood in the summer is in no way similar to surviving in th winter without heat.

Again: 2.8 billion dollars to Alberta.  Ontario, 0.  And btw, Torontonians lived through a big ass flood this summer.

So yes, comparisons can and should be made.  Harper proved his point:  Cares about Alberta, Left Torotonto (and Ontario) behind a long time ago.

What the heck difference does surviving without heat have to do with the $$$ given.

The $$$ are to replace, rebuild infrastructure 

From: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/08/29/alberta-flood-relief-spending_n_3837066.html
 

Horner, who was giving the province's first-quarter budget update Thursday, confirmed Premier Alison Redford's earlier estimate that the final bill to be shared by insurers and three levels of government will be around $5 billion.

"This was an unprecedented disaster and it comes with a very high price tag," Horner told a news conference.

The ice storm does not compare, nor should it, in terms of cost.  

How many people died as a direct result of the flood, vs. as a direct result of the ice storm?

Hi redhead,

Each presents certain challenges.

Losing a home is in no way similar to losing the contents of one's fridge.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi chemgal,

4 dead attributed to the flooding in Alberta vs 1 (possible) death due to the ice-storm in Toronto.

At least as far as I can find.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Actually Pinga, you just want to fight with me.  And you you make very bad arguments in many threads.

1:  Well over a million tax paying people  lived in the cold for days throughout the icestorm that hit Toronto. 

2:The federal government responded immediately to Alberta.  No response,aid or help offered to Ontario.

3: Rationally, if one looks at population and tax paying, it makes sense that the federal governmenrt should step up and offer support, especially considering the help offeredv to Alberta.

4: Reality:  Harper is pissed off with the Fords, and has been trying his best to distance himsel from the Fords, and Harper knows that Toronto is pro-NDP and Ontario is Liberal and Harper does not give a fig about the fourth largest city in NA.

5:  I know you do not apologise for your povs, which are clearly conservative WASPY Xian.

I no longer will apologise for mine: liberal, tolerant and educated.  Irony: I still have to listen and think about whatever you write while knowing that you dismiss anything I write out of hand.

Hi Pinga,

Ummmmm.  Personally speaking if I think a tree might fall on my car due to the weight of ice I believe the same tree might fall on the car while I am in it or on me while I am approaching the car to move it.

Foolish risk to personal health in an effort to save personal property.

Your car might be salvaged if it takes a ice heavy branch to the hood.  I doubt you would fare as well should you take one to the noggin.

Just saying . . . .

Grace and peace to you.

John

Redhead, give it a rest, I am addressing your post.  You posted, I responded.  

Agreed, revjohn.....

Redhead , are you comparing hardship or cost.  You lead with teh dollar figures.  I know many people who lived without power.  None of them had extreme hardship, most went and stayed at friends or families houses.  Some didn't have power for hours, some for days.  None are looking for reimbursement.  None experienced massive costs.  

Of course, some folks had hardship, and some may have had large costs, especially if their plumbing froze or pipes burst; however, even the folks that I knowin the country who live on wells, and so didn't have pressure to keep water dripping didn't lose pipes.

What is the core of your argument ?  What assistance do you expect from the government that has not been received todate.

Why not?

Redhead, what specifically did the federal government cover for the floods in Alberta that you have an issue with?

What specifically do you think needs to be covered by the federal government now in Toronto?  Why is Ontario special?  From what I've heard it isn't just Ontario that was hit from this.

Due to questions of "households", "customers" and "people" impacted, thought the following from an article on Dec 23 might be helpful.  It  would imply that at one point, close to 50% of Toronto's customers were without power, but, within 1 day of outage, only 30% remained without power.

While electricity has been restored to around 100,000 customers in Toronto, around 195,000 still remain without power, Wynne said. Toronto Hydro has 719,000 customers in total, according to its website. As of Sunday, there were 500 power lines on the ground, but all have since been cleared out, Wynne added.

Outside the greater Toronto-Hamilton area, Hydro One has restored power to around 65,000 customers but about 80,000 are still without electricity. Hydro One serves 1.3 million customers in communities including Bolton, Bowmanville, Dundas, Guelph, Newmarket, Orangeville, Peterborough, Pickton and Walkerton.

What would a state of emergency have done?

Some of the things that a state of emergency would have done: Allowed for bypassing of beauracracy, designation of emergency routes, gives police greater powers.

None of those were necessary in this situation, as the city continued to work and crews were able to get in...

It may have made people feel they were being listed to, ie some "feel good" placebo affect

Will it impact funding which can be acquired from vari

ous levels of government?

Nope, it doesn't appear so at this time.

A quick check online suggested that the costs of the ice storm/power outage have been estimated at 75 million dollars.  Alberta flooding costs have been estimated in excess of 5 billion dollars.  Estimates of the costs of Mental Health services alone are over 50 million.

Very few Torontonians continue to be  living with significant inconvenience a few days later.      In High River 2,000 or more are living in temporary housing of  one kind or another seven months later.  Many still don't know whether they will ever get to live in their homes again.  Some people who have returned to the main floor of their damaged house have now found ice build up in the basements.  

From reading this thread I wonder if there is a tendency to compare apples and oranges going on.  The two events are very different in level of damage, trauma to residents, time required for clean-up and restoration of normal life.

I expect once the costs are totalled it will be known whether or not various governments will pitch in.

Today I heard that they expect $25.000.000 just to remove the downed trees over the next two months. That is 25 million, a lot of money and a lot of dead trees. And a total of $75,000,000

Seem areas are terribly damaged and it is estimated that 25% of the tree canopy is gone.

That is a lot of trees.

Redhead I think we just need to wait and see the tally. If it gets high enough then I figure the city government under the deputy mayor, will ask for relief but he city will be expected to pick up the first several million I have heard. I doubt that the federal government would be ignoring toronto due to issues with our bizaare mayor. Hey he launched his campaign today. Yikes and. Now that he has no duties a s mayor he has plenty of time to campaign.

.

I think how many people were affected will continue to be disputed. When I heard that one apartment building off the grid counted as one customer I was astonished. But I suppose hydro was assessing the lines that needed to be fixed. So attaching one apartment building back to the grid wAs in reality one customer. Yet one apartment building could have possibly 300 apartments? With perhaps 1000 residents?

I am not sure we will ever get an actual number of citizens that were without power. But at least now we are mainly back in business with massive clean up to do.

I was lucky, no power loss and even at our farm where we lose power a lot we were fine.

I think they fell down in the door to door assessment that was needed and that is an area that the armed forces could have been very helpful I think.

Hi chemgall,

It isn't a typical insurable loss and for most homes the deductible would surpass the amount of the actual claim.

That and the fact that if your fridge doesn't work in the winter you can put food stuffs outside.  Most foods do not spoil if they are kept cool.  Things in the freezer might defrost still, if it is below 0degrees that can be prevented.

Grace and peace to you.

John

RevJohn, You are correct.  we use our sunroom over Christmas.  Nothing spoiled, some things froze.   When I was younger and a student, our fridge broke in the dead of winter.  we just got the coolers out. It worked great.

Dear Redhead,

My humble opinion is that the 2 events are very different in terms of long term effects.

Food spoilage-a frezer-chest tye will last a few days without power if kept cold-and plan B is that food can go outside if it cold out. I imagine food spoilage would be minimal.

High River still has whole communities not back in their houses and the clean up continues.

Seems like Ontarios Power companies hsould do something to ensure storms don't result in power out tages. Do the lines need replaced?

Hi All,

Going back to Crowe and Kemper's "unknown distress" argument the most serious element is the mobility issue for folk with medical needs or who get in home assistance. 

I think this actually reveals a vulnerability amongst the citizenry in communities that are forced to build up rather than out.  I am aware that in the lobby of most high-rise tenements there is a call-box which is accessible by the Fire Department.  It contains a list of tenants and their contact information so that when responding to a fire on the 12th floor (the enunciator panel will show them where) they can then contact units on the 12th floor to see if those units are in immediate peril or not.  (it is taken as given that no response from any given unit means trouble and appropriate action is taken).

I am not aware if that call list also includes information of folk who may have mobility issues and cannot access the stairs in the even evacuation is necessary.  One should never use elevators in the event of fire because the call mechanism on the cars can fail and actually deliver you to the floor which is on fire.  The doors open, super heated gasses fill the elevator, you breathe it in and fry your lungs.  You will not have the time to push the door close button and send the car to another floor you will be disabled and death will follow painfully but shortly.  Fire fighters have a key which allows them to override the call mechanism and go to the floor they want and while my training is no longer current theyt never go directly to the floor of the fire.  Usually one below and take the stairs from there.

If the power is out does meals on wheels walk 12 floors up to deliver?  I have several retired parishioners who volunteer for Meals on Wheels.  I wouldn't expect them to climb  stairs to the 12th floor and not be in somekind of distress themselves.  So, who gets the meal where it ought to go?

That kind of crisis doesn't constitute a state of emergency.

It does represent an area of proaction that should be looked into.

Grace and peace to you.

John