"He has a steady stream of visitors, including college students writing papers about him, said Theresa Cisneros, spokeswoman for Corcoran state prison."

When we were teenagers in the early 70's we met two girls whose last name was Manson.  They told us, and everyone else, that this man was their uncle.  They even had teachers who encouraged them to write to him in prison. They lied.  At the time though I believed them, but not for long LOL!

Did you notice the tattoo on his forehead?

The Norwegian shooter . . . makes my blood boil when I see him on the news . . .

what I am wondering is how much it costs taxpayers to keep them in prison for life. bullets are cheaper.

Manson was dangerous mainly because he was charismatic enouigh to get people to follow him and do his bidding - keep in mind he never actually killed anyone with hiis own hands.

This norwegian fellow is a totally differnt story.  I don't know if he is legally insane but he is cetianly not 'normal'

He is totally given over to evil.

Maybe we could send him to our island.   Him and that Norweigen guy.

I'm with you Trish. It might take a silver bullet though! Can't believe that man is still alive. ANy serial killer.

Interesting Rowan, I hadn't known that. But he's still a mass murderer. Whoa, goes to show, the power one can have just using the minds of others. Individuality people! Nurture it, cling to it!

Just looked at the picture. Good god. He shouldn't be around still, all old and grey, kept alive all this time. (shakes head)

Seeler

How about a Hunger Games type scenario?  But no sponsors or glamour.  Just a fight to the death with added booby traps.

like death and taxes...

A good book trying to understand Serial Killers (which Manson doesn't fit the concept) is The Serial Killers:  Study in the Psychology of Violence by Colin Wilson.  You'll find out some interesting things, like there hasn't always been serial killers and where they come from and their incidence.

sounds like the perfect coffee table book for when the mother in law comes to visit. 

right next to the Necronomicon, of course

I've never watched the Hunger Games - but somehow I imagine this island, with nobody but Canada's worst psychopaths and mass murders (plus one American) would soon turn into a survival of the fittest, and I don't think we would need to add the booby traps - between nature and the other prisoners there would be enough booby traps.   Survival, from the time they are dropped off might be between a few days and a few years - tough and brutal.  

Actually, try Richard Bachman's (Stephen King pseudonym) "The Running Man". There's a movie version starring the Governator. Basically, convicts can get their freedom by appearing on a game show that's a fight to the death. Spoiler info below my name. Read at own peril if you plan to read/watch it.

Mendalla

SPOILER - It's rigged. No one survives until the protagonist (played by Schwarzeneggar) comes along.

I thought the "bullets are cheaper" comments were rough.... I had seen nothing yet.

Has anyone pondered the thoughts they are having around this? So you think someone deserves to die. Didn't some of the criminals you look at?

I can handle those who support capital punishment and want it to be swift, as humane as possible...

This, this is something else.

IMO It is also rather sick.

What is it when someone likes the idea another fight for their life and suffer because of the belief that for some reason they deserve it. Didn't the criminal you now distinguish yourself from think just that?

Many of the people in prison were not even that sick to want death and suffering.... It was, for some, a robbery gone wrong or one terribly awry moment in their life... My father's murderer it was one moment gone wrong in a very loving and regular life and wishing what you now wish would have made made me far sicker and violent than he was IMO.

The difference between the people and the animals may be the bars, but sometimes which is which is harder to spot.

I suspect many of us are speaking satirically. Certainly, "The Running Man" is intended as a satire on celebrity and game show culture rather than as a serious suggestion. Like The Hunger Games, it exaggerates and stretches currrent trends in reality to achieve that satire.

Mendalla

Mendalla,

What is satire and what is serious depends on the person and I do not necessarily mean the awareness of the person reading. What some write as satire, others write as serious political or religiuous stance and that is why the satire of others is so compelling. Who is who can be clear or unclear.

You have went on record as being the Colbert or Stewart type. I hear that.

Colbert or Stewart? I'm not in that league. If I am, time for a career change .

Point taken, though.

Mendalla

Mendalla,

I admit that where perhaps it is less common to hear such things in Canada, I do know what it is to hear religious people very seriously say "fry 'em"  or "just set the whole joint ablaze with the doors locked, they are headed to hell anyways".

I recall listening to very distinguished elderly congregants talking about visiting the prison museum at Hunstville, Texas and thinking the vials on display were too humane and so was Old Sparky. They thought hanging was best.

One night in Ohio clergy and congregants were working themselves into a killing frenzy talking about how it sucked the lights would not dim (meaning the switch had been flipped) and how lethal injection was what you did to pets not monsters. [Ohio resuming their executions last night with Mark Wiles has11 executions scheduled in the next 20 months.] 

I once heard about not wasting drugs and you just just quit feeding them and there was no joking and no satire. So, again, what is some people satire is another's political and religious stance.

SG yes I guess we are having a bit of satirical time with this but the individuals we are referring to are people like of the Norway Shooter, Charles Manson and the like. Truly evil individuals.  

*****

As Seeler said: but somehow I imagine this island, with nobody but Canada's worst psychopaths and mass murders 

*****

And I think that in the event of formal capital punishment, the most humane method should be used. Those politicians were pretty sick talking about being disappointed that the lights didn't dim and some of the other comments.  They  COULD keept those thoughts to themselves.

SG - I sat reading this thread last night, thinking very similar thoughts to you but not knowing how to express them. I figured I would come up with a better response in the morning but you have said I would have said in a far more eloquent way.

In my opinion, killing is wrong - no matter who is doing it.

Agreed. I've long been an opponent of capital punishment on principle even if the Paul Bernardos and Terri-lyn McClintocks (to name two cases closer to home) of the world make that hard sometimes. It would amount to letting their brutality change us to be more like them and I can't stomach that thought.

Mendalla

It would have been easy for me to demonize the man who killed my biological father, call him evil. Instead, I saw a husband and father who made a mistake. It was not meant to be the way it turned out.

My mother also had times due to mental illness she was paranoid and hallucinating and she could have at any moment hurt anyone. She did hurt and torment people, we all lived though some of us barely. Some would call my mother evil.

Because of our upbringing and lack of parenting or unresolved pain or whatever my sister has from addiction done what some would call evil.  

Could people have fun with that? Sure. It is however not satire and not because I do not have a sense of humour or understand satire. I do....

You cannot call it satire unless you do not support such. You see satire is using your writing to expose the folly of an idea or to show how ridiculous it is or how wrong it is.... it is being sarcastic.

I do not see that here, at least not from all engaged. I am sure some do support the death penalty and some who have o problems with an island... they are just carrying their thoughts a little farther and poking fun...

If my brother is pro-gay and says "sure let's send them all to an island" it is sarcasm and satire. If he is anti-gay, it is not. The same applies if someone is anti-death penalty and trying to make it and those who support it look silly, that is satire. In this case, I do not think it is.

For me, toss out any name, they are human beings. Someone's child, parent, sibling.... and what we call evil may be something they call something else. Anti-social personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, sociopath, psychopaths... all terms related to mental illness.

Is mental illness evil? A man in a psychotic state eats someone on a bus, a woman kills her children... evil or sad?

Evil lets us off the hook. We do not have to look at a lack of services and understanding, our own stigma... our own evils.

Let's just say it is evil. Do we make them more evil than they are? Take Charles Manson, we toss about that he is a serial killer, but he was never found to have killed anyone. His crime was conspiracy (subject to the same punishment as the actual murderer) and we have that he cut off Gary Hinman's ear. That is pretty far from a serial killer. So, is he pure evil? 

Manson has some superpowerful demonic cult status. He was a petty criminal who then had 9 people murdered. John Wayne Gacy killed 33 kids. How many people did John Gotti conspire to have killed? Where is the pure evil line and what does it look like? Is it lying and sending troops, it is to greame.

In the end, they are no matter how heinous their crimes, to me, human being, whether they are Manson, Gacy, Saddam....

Do I think they all have medical troubles or sad stories or are a product of our society? Not really, some can just be twisted and mean and evil. In the end, I still do not believe it is my place or the government's place to kill them.

I believe we deal with darkness with light not more darkness, but that is my opinion.

So, since Mendalla opposes capital punishment his comments can be called satire.
I do not think that everyone else posting on these thread opposes the death penalty.
So, it is not satire.

I hoped that by making the 'island' (from another thread) dark humor and suspense, I could satirize it and nobody would take it seriously.  No, I don't think Charles Manson, or the Norwegian guy, or Allan Leger, or Paul Bernardo, or any of Canada's worst mass murderers should be tortured or executed.  If it is deemed that it is not possible to rehabilitate them, I think a civilized society has no choice but to maintain them as comfortably and humanely as possible in a secure facility for the rest of their natural lives.

This comment is the closest I've come on Wondercafe to flagging as offensive.

(The fact that I've heard similar views expressed many times saddens me.)

Perhaps it might be more productive if society paid more attention to what caused these tragic outcomes?

My response to Trishcuit's comment is that bullets may be cheaper financially but what about the costs to our soul as a society and as individuals in that society? And who's going to pull the trigger? Bullets don't fire themselves. Would you volunteer, Trishcuit?

Mendalla

I can imagine Lloyd's of London making a mint off of this.

Or howabout something like CBC's excellent show Dragon's Den, but where convicts come in to beg for their lives?

Yuppers, and one can manipulate people easily if they know how people work...

Just watch this with Derren Brown, as he convinces strangers to give him their wallets...and then the one guy, who he does it to twice...

*chuckle*  Then you'd run into EPA standards with lead toxicity levels

There was once a demonstration on a TV show.  Someone with a bent coathanger was standing on a busy sidewalk trying to thread this through a slightly opened window to catch the lock and break into a car.  Not only did nobody try to stop him, or report him, he was able to pursuade several people to try to help him, and even without his asking, others stopped to offer advice.

And another thing that I found upsetting was how easily everyone went along with a comment like that.

Then along comes SG (who arguably has experienced more suffering situations than most) and says words to the effect "this is not right" and, like little ducks following their mother, everyone abruptly either changes their position, justifies what they really meant, or admits to keeping silent even when they disagreed.

I can't help thinking there is a connection here with how so many Germans went along with Hitler.

From small seeds big things grow...........

(Just for the record - far too often in life I've kept silent, for the sake of avoiding conflict and risking "not being liked" - when I know I should have spoken up).

I just about flagged the bullet comment offensive, but then it is just erased and what do we learn?
 

I am all about awareness. I acknowledged some were using satire. Did they think everyone was, because they were?

One look at "Capital Punishment" thread and you can see where people stand... (I gotta say one person made me take a look at the thread because I went WTF)

If you cannot recall where they stand have you minsconstrued? Do others misconstrue you? Are you having shits and giggles with folks who are not joking or are you helping to fuel them? Are they having fun with you or just getting it out of their system how they really feel in a way it is acceptable to say it? What about those who are reading? Do they know how to take it, take you...

PilgrimsProgress it does remind you of many a group experiment....

Reminds me of a sermon on how people are like sheep....

Pilgrims Progress,

and that is a mechanism that can be used for good and ill -- in fact, someone has found out that for an idea to become adopted by the majority only a small percentage has to believe in it.  Before that critical # happens, nothing, but when that critical # is reached BLAMMO!  It spreads and becomes adopted as a belief.

There is also some data to suggest that the more different povs one encounters, the more polarized beliefs become.

So what to do?

(I'm glad you and SG recognized that your potential offense was your and your responsibility and not anyone else's...shows an enlightened mind...)

Yes, this is true.

As a child, I just accepted (as do most kids) my parent's point of view. There seemed to be a lot of "this is right", or conversely, "this is wrong".

As an adult, I saw how there was a lot of black and white thinking - but wanted to understand more grey........

At this stage of my life I'm more interested in why folks think as they do, rather than what they think.

That said, we all have our button pushing issues -and the death penalty is one such issue for me..........

The Island concept was satiric. But for my belief in Capitlal Punishment is for real.  Here you will see I am not changing my  view on the core issue out of a need to 'get along'. I hope that counts for something.  I do believe that when it is administered as a part of justice, it should be clean, quick and humane so as not to incite blood lust.

If SG* were an animal (as opposed to a naked beach ape), I'd see him as a horse.

Hey, maybe that'd be a neat thread in SOCIAL?

* S*** & Giggles, Steadfastly Gentle/Gentile, Seriously Gentlemanly?

trishquit,

I tell those who use Leviticus for their own beliefs on homosexuality they can talk when they do not eat pork, don't wear polyseter and sleep in separate beds and all that jazz near menses.

I will say the same thing I say to anyone who uses the Bible to prop up their belief in the death penalty, when you start killing the non-virgins and the unruly children then talk to me about how you are following the Bible when it comes to capital punishment.

I am very sorry about your father, SG, for his untimely death. I cannot imagine the grief you suffered and the strength it took.  

The coming of Christ ended the Mosaic law, which was listed in Leviticus and other parts of the Old Testament.  We are required to keep the Ten Commandments as they reveal our sin.  Call it a Moral Compass if you will.  The Ten Commandments condemn murder, not killing, as a form of justice meted out.

However even in the New Testament Capital Punishment is given support.

God through Paul specifically commands earthly governments to execute criminals with the sword:

• For [the governing authority] is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Rom. 13:4

If you seriously feel that capital punishment is wrong, I respect that. I just want people to also recognize that the Bible's New Testament does give allowance it for certain situations.

Gotta say, it really pisses me off when folks justify their own beliefs in judgement, retribution, capital punishment -and all manner of cruelty - by the "it's in the Bible" line.

What doesn't the Bible include? It's literally full of mayhem and murder.

It's also about love and compassion.

Anything can be justified by the literal translation of the Bible and the Koran - so isn't it high time folks were honest and just said "this is what I believe -and I'll take personal responsibility for my beliefs".

Jesus wept concerning Lazarus - I can find far more to weep about in the Bible than just Lazarus..........

Pilgrims, I think one of the wonderful things about the internet is that you don't necessarily have to respond immediately. Taking time to respond can prevent a lot of "foot in mouth" disease. When I read what was being said in this thread, I honestly felt flustered (this was also partly due to the fact that I was tired). I knew I wanted to say something, but I was tripping over my words. I believed that I would do a better job in getting my point across if I took some time to think about what I wanted to say. If this had been an in-person conversation, I would have likely taken a moment to think about my words and then spoken up.

For once in my life I was actually not attempting to avoid conflict, I was simply preparing myself for it.

Well ok then, that is what I believe.  That with  HEINOUS criminals (serial killers and mass murderers et al) Captial Punishment should not be ruled out.   With our without the Bible (tho it helps to find it IN the Bible) that is how I honestly feel.

There is a lot of truth in this........

I guess if it's a "button pressing topic" we move - through our strong feelings - past the point of worrying about being "right" or appearing biased.

This is definately one such issue for me -and I suspect it is forTrishcuit.

I don't agree with your point of view, but I respect your honesty.

Perhaps our opposing viewpoints come from the same place - our personal history, environment, and genetic make-up?

It seems to me so much of what we believe is just the tip of the iceberg - and yet in discussions either in "real" life or on the internet we seldom see what lies below the surface where our belief foundations exist.

To mix my metaphors, it's a bit like reading the end of a story without reading  what led to that conclusion............

I wasn't going to do this, it being a button pressing issue that I really didn't want to get into, and have done so before on another forum, but because Pilgrim asked...

First of all, I was providing friendly support for Trishcuit's unpopular view, which I also share. The "silver" part was sarcasm. I would not support an island. I think that would be barbaric, and also leave too much room for possible escape.

I think you Pilgrim gave an excellent post upthread, as have you SG. Both standing up for your views, being honest, and individual, and looking at the big picture. Holding up a mirror, and providing very good points. SG you are very articulate and literate, and true to yourself. I respect that greatly. And Pilgrim, you pointed out what was going on in this thread with remarkable clarity. Though Somegal has later explained her own situation, which I might add, was also well done. We are only human.

I also wanted to say, that critical numer is 5 in 100, Inanna. That's all it takes to lead a movement.

To me, I think it does a service to humanity, to painlessly, swifty, cleanly, quietly, calmly and revengelessly execute only the most heinous and dangerous of our criminals. I do not see them as souls to be saved. I do not believe in souls. I see them as sadly malignant humans gone wrong. And I do not attatch the same value to their lives.

Where do I get this view from? Not out of anger, or desire for revenge. It just makes sence to me. Someone that dangerous, I feel should not be kept around. Someone like that can not be re-habilitated. These are very rare individuals, very dangerous, very sick / irrepareably psychotic. If they could re-habilitate, they could never live with themselves. Therefore, there, to me, is an element of compassion in it as well.

In my mind, I do compare these to rabid or otherwise dangerous animals or diseased trees. It is sad, but sometimes necesary they be killed.

I didn't want to offend you my friends, or invoke angry or emotional retorts, or disapointment, with my opposing view. But there it is, for the sake of honesty.

Well I must say  that for being such a hot topic, we conducted ourselves very well. We expressed our thoughts and opinions respectfully and without it becoming a flame war. Thank you all.

In particular, Pilgrim, SG, and Elanor, you expressed yourselves beautifully.  

I'm interested - just how many people are we talking about here who have committed heineous crimes and are beyond rehibilitation.   Whether its a penal colony, or execution, or life without parole - how many would it be in Canada?   Average.   Would it be one a year?   or more likely one every five to ten years?   or maybe only one in a quarter century or so?  

My take on the death penalty in a few bullets:

• It de-humanizes our society by satisfying our urge for vengeance and for "an eye for an eye". IOW, it fulfills negative, rather than positive, desires.

• In our imperfect justice system, it opens the door to society committing murder if there is a wrongful conviction (think of Guy Paul Morin, for instance).

• In our imperfect justice system, can we even set a fair, just standard for who should die and who should not? Is the standard based on quantity (killing lots of people gets you executed)? On quality (are some kinds of murder worse than others)? On simply being convicted of first degree murder? Does Paul Bernardo die and Karla Homolka live simply because one was convicted of first degree murder and the other manslaughter by virtue of one cutting a deal with the prosecution to help convict the other?

There are simply too many questions of justice, ethics, and law that are not answered by a simple cry of "kill the bastard" which is, to be frank, what I'm hearing here.

A justice system based on knee-jerk reactions to a few cases is not a just system.

Mendalla

I know it is just a movie, but . . .

I watched a rerun on television of the old movie "Dead Man Walking" with Susan Sarandon and Sean Penn.  Sister Helen Prejean (Sarandon) is the spiritual mentor to Matthew Poncelet (Penn) in the final days prior to his execution by the state.  Up until the last minutes of his life Poncelet hangs on to his innocence but eventually confesses to the nun his guilt of murder and rape.  Throughout their time together Sister Prejean is trying to get him to admit to what he has done, to take responsibility for what he has done . . . "the truth shall set you free".

As Poncelet speaks to those who have gathered to watch him die part of what he says is . . .

"l just want to say...

...l think killing is wrong...

...no matter who does it.

Whether it's me or y'all or your government. "

From where I sit today I agree with these words . . . from where I am right now I do not believe in capital punishment.

Part of my faith holds out the hope of mercy and grace, and the abililty to receive it and change.  While I'm sure there are some for whom change is almost impossible and downright unlikely, my faith reminds me that it is in God's power for change to take place.

Here is the very essence of the debate.

For me, it is the last word................

See I think that is a black and white view, and that there are times when killing is the preferable of two awful options.

And sometimes I think the animals are smarter than us. They are not encumbered wth spiritual thought or philosophical rights and wrongs. They just get on with whatever needs doing.

I am speaking in principle here, if the justice system could work as it should, fairly, and justly. And not taking into account that these execution trials are said to cost more than life imprisonment.

I have gone over the capital punishment thread, and am comforted to find there that Trish and I are not alone. My husband also sees the reason and room for each case to be treated individually, with execution as an option, as does my mother.

I could also add the following considderations to the view that killing is always wrong:

What about vegetarianism?

a horse with a broken leg?

a tiger thats developed a taste for human blood and won't stop hunting vilagers til it gets it?

euthenasia?

abortion?

Self defence? Defence of others? What if you saw a manman on a shooting rampage and you had the ability stop them?

What about the person who kills in self defense, or to defend others, who is then convicted of murder?

What about Hitler? He killed himself, yet you would have him in prison for life?

Not believing in god who does nature's executions, I believe that we and nature are god collectively, therefore it is our responsibility to manage our community using our justice system, and our reasoning minds. More harm can come of not doing so.

I also believe that life in prison is a sorry existence, and that death may be preferable. Looking at Manson, age 77, I strangely feel almost pity, I think he should have been granted death decades ago.

I think individual lives are Gaia's breath, ever fluctuating, ever changing form, dying and being born. And we have too much fear for spiritual retribution over the taking of a piece of it for the right reasons. However, I also believe in democracy, and if more people in Canada are against the death penalty, then we shouldn't have it.

I think that the story of Jesus and the adultress is not an apt story for the case of psychopathic killers. It is also only one story, and we should draw our decisions from more than one source or example.