Does this help regarding an emerging position here? (Cut and pasted
from another thread)

EZ Proposal: What follows is my contribution to the discussion. I have edited StephenGordon's excellent post into point form, arranged according to legality and (non) acceptability.

I offer this in the spirit of helping to further define the norms of behaviour in the WonderCafe community. I offer this as one who wants the WonderCafe project to succeed in its intended purpose.

The following is offered as a proposal, and critical comments and revisions are invited.

.........Proposed WonderCafe Criteria for Removing Posts.......

Whereas the purpose of WonderCafe is to allow open-minded discussion of issues of interest to participants, including the discussion of spirituality;

And whereas discussion of spirituality, religion, faith, and scriptures will involve sharply differing opinions, which may lead to hurt, offence, and sometimes hate speech;

And whereas the maintenance of a safe environment is a priority for discussion to flourish;

Therefore, Violence and Hate Speech will not be tolerated, and posts that include such language may be deleted and the user banned from the site.

Violence and Hate Speech includes hateful language that could be seen as meaning to inflict hatred or violence against other"”including racist, sexist and homophobic attacks. In determining what constitutes Violence and Hate Speech, the laws of Canada will serve as guidelines.

The following examples, relating to the subject of homosexuality and homosexuals, are considered unacceptable and subject to deletion:

"¢ to advocate, condone or make it acceptable to incarcerate, detain, abuse, torture, maim and/or kill in general or by genocide based on sexual orientation specifically;

"¢ to argue that rape or other forced sexual acts may "cure" someone of sexual orientation;

"¢ to defend or advocate Nazi Holocaust action for the control or limiting of non-heterosexual activity.

The following examples are considered unacceptable as defamation and/or slander:

"¢ to define entire groups of people based on their sexual orientation, as child molesters, rapists, or sexual predators;

"¢ to claim that an individual based on his or her sexual orientation is inclined to molest, rape, or sexual abuse.

Even where some speech is exempt by law because of religious exclusions, participants are strongly encouraged to consider the impact certain statements may have on participants of differing sexual orientations.

Examples include:

"¢ to quote scripture verses and the interpretation of those verses to condemn people to hell based on sexual orientation;

"¢ to deny homosexuals are born that way or created by God that way, given that scientific evidence is either not conclusive or not accepted universally to the exclusion of other thought;

"¢ to state that, based on sexual orientation, people should be denied ordination or sacraments of the church, ceremonies, membership;

"¢ to use arguments about homosexual indoctrination, being predatory, improperly influencing religion or government;

"¢ to judge, condemn, insist on changes to sexual orientation, refer to treatments or cures for sexual orientation, such as sex with the opposite sex;

Again, although these examples may not rise to the level of Violence or Hate Speech as defined by Canadian law, they have the potential for creating an unwelcoming, even poisoned environment for participants of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered orientations.

And welcome if you are new here.

wow, you sound like you've been through a SH*(&%^*^Y ordeal, cabinack... i don't blame you for deciding to just get the hell out.

i'm a firm believer that you can worship god beautifully without having to attend a church, so you won't hear any problems from my end.

and besides, according to your profile, it sounds like you like hanging out at the cottage and drinking beer... a more noble and relaxing canadian passtime would be hard to find, methinks.

Holy crap!

Alucard is like the squirrel!

*he writes in a familiar way too, so I wonder if he has long been among us with a new user name...hmmmm*

As for Cabinack:

You experienced an injustice. (I don't use that word lightly.)

We throw the word "justice" around a lot, even though it is not a reality. If I were you, I would research gay friendly churches and re-introduce yourselves to the UCC - you may be surprised.

I'm all for the beer drinking, too

I'd agree with Mad Monk - keep looking -
the UCC at the top level is full of people that are open and welcoming, and have created a structure to be open and welcoming. That filters down.
But congregations are made of individuals, so of course this is where the rubber hits the road. Some churches are full of people who are not welcoming yet, some are not sure what to do with "them", some are wide open, welcoming, and ready. Some congregations are full of both - interesting discussions there!
You might find in the other threads that some churches are welcoming to children and some are not, some make space for young couples, & some can't bridge the culture gap.

Keep looking, and know that there are many who are caring about you right now.

cabinack, this may be an issue with a particular church, and not the UCC in general. I think you should be a member of a church because the Christian faith is based on religious community, on relationships, not individuals.

I think we all hear a lot of pain, frustration, anger, and sadness in your post. If you live anywhere near Ottawa, and if you are ready, I can direct you to any number of churches (UCC) that would welcome you open arms. I bet that there are people across Canada who can make the same offer. God bless.

Cabinack, I think you are pissed. I understand that. I know all to well the pains of being "out" at church. Yet, making statements like this are no different than "all gays__".

I can mention one church, that not only is being gay accepted, it is almost the norm. We both know it exists. I could not attend there because I did not want to be segregated. I do not support it and I felt I was. I could attend with dignity, but would have had to compromise me.

There are places out there. You answered yes to the quesion, "Do you wish to attend church and fellowship with other Christians?" Then, find somewhere.

Is it hard in rural areas, even in the UCCan? Yes.
Even in Ontario? Yes. It has been .
Has it been overwhelmingly bad? There have been moments.
Has it been great beyond measure? Yep, many times.

When your answer goes from yes to no, then you quit looking ;)

Peace
SG

Cabnack:

I am sorry that you have had this experience. I know of a congregation with a same-sex oriented minister, a same-sex oriented treasurer, and several same-sex oriented people active in different committees. There is hope.

My younger brother was gay. He died of AIDS in 1994. He sang in the choir at Timothy Eaton United Church in Toronto. A major "establishment" church -- established by a huge donation from the Eaton family way back in the whenever. His funeral was well attended. He was respected by the church family and by friends in the community.

There are places where you belong. I hope and pray you will be able to find one. Everybody deserves a loving community.

dear Cabinack-
thanks for your post. At our Presbytery meeting this week, it was suggested the UCC needs to apologize to the GLBT community for how we have mistreated you. I don't know if the proposal will ever get the proper level. The first step is actually building healthy communities where situations like yours don't happen again, and there is a real welcome. It takes time for real justice to happen. It hurts me when I hear stories like yours, because I know we've failed to be the church once again. I hope someday you will find a welcoming home.

I know that there are welcoming and affirming congregations (not necessarily formally registered as such) throughout the interior of B.C.--not just in the big cities. Even in the so-called "Bible belt" areas such as the Okanagan and Fraser Valley you can find welcoming, progressive United church congregations. So if you have bad luck and go to a more conservative congregation first, please keep looking.

Cabinack;
I know full well your pain.
Just a fortnight ago my Minister asked me how I was able to stick with the church all these years. Even though it was hell at times and very discouraging I have also seen progress over the years at all levels of the church and especially in my congregation. That is why I stuck with it and also because so many 'straights' fought so hard to help bring about 'gay' liberation and acceptance in the church. I could not abondon them.
Peace and love to you and your spouse. Please don't give up finding a loving and welcoming Christian community in which you can fully participate. There are more of them out there then perhaps you can inmagine.

Yes, Birth Control is a sin, I believe the Catholic Church agrees as well.
If you are blocking the act of having a Child, again you are doing nothing more than taking pleasure an desire of the flesh.
Christ taught us that by doing this you will die.

Romans 8:6
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace

Romans 8:13
for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

Galatians 5:24
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Ephesians 2:3
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

God Bless
Amen

Door57,

I think you are hateful. But you excite me. Catch me if you can!

As I read your thread, it made me kick myself.

You see, it reminded me of a great couple that started coming to our church, not every Sunday, but, many. They were nice, and wow, had so much to offer. We were afraid to overwhelm them, coz, they were so nice...(if that makes sense..you know, don't want to smother the new guys with everyone inviting them to be on comittees or help with stuff or attend groups, etc)

At the same time, the church was going through difficulties, (understatement).

One of the fellows proposed a great project, and it was fabulous, but, at the time, the same activity was already being done by someone else, and so, well, with everything else going on, the transition never happened.

At some point, I realized they weren't there any more.
At some point, i bet they were dropped from the active registry. (Bad habit of our church is to move people to the "historical rolls". (that's a separate post, but trust me, it is not because of anything other than lack of attendance and caution on presbytery dues)

So now, I wonder, how did this series of events appear to them? It could be, in the same way that Cabinack mentions.

Thanks Cabinack for your post. For the record, you would be quite welcome at our church.

This is a technical point, but it has pastoral implications. In many parts of the church, the assessment each congregation must pay to the regional governing body, which for us is the Presbytery & Conference, is based upon the number of active members. It's a head tax. So if a congregation is struggling, one way to cut costs is to reduce the number of names on the rolls. As a result, it is financially advantageous to drop fringe names.

Here in Montreal, the assessment is based on a percentage of your total revenue as a congregation. So it is an income tax. As a result, we have no pressure to 'purge the rolls'. Purging the rolls means lots of cases like this one are easily dropped through a very large crack.

Cabinack, FYI, I've just e-mailed Wondercafe regarding deleting the previous post by Door57 as I believe it fulfills the "Proposed Wondercafe criteria for removing posts" as noted in Alucard's post.

Door 57 has more spam than a Monty Python sketch......can you do the equivalent of a sort of computational castration on him?

I'm truly sorry about the way you were treated.
The small United church in Ont. that I was confirmed in does its own thing and the minister wrote several letters to the local paper opposing equal marriage. It's in cottage country and I know you wouldn't be welcomed there. The church still uses the old anglican/United hymnbook. That's how out of date they are.
My current church in Alberta would welcome you and your entire family, as we should.
So please keep looking, perhaps try the next community, You would benefit from a connection with a body of believers and they would benefit from you!

Yes Atheisto,

Perhaps a castration might ease his torment. But that would
not be as much fun as his chasing me around with his stakes
and crosses! I am sure with the right treatment my insatiable
children of night could ease his mind in another way as well
if they found him to their taste.

Answer: Best suggestion I have heard all day . Nothing more appropriate than helping someone who has been hurt by homophobes then by castrating a few of them! That makes everyone feel better!

Next Question...

If you can't find a church fellowship that fits, and it's important enough to you (and it sounds like it is), then start something new yourself. It doesn't have to be big and churchy, but if a fellowship of like-minded believers is what you're looking for, I'm sure there are others out there looking for the same thing. I can't imagine how difficult church shopping must be for the gay community, but at some point if you can't find what you're looking for it's indicative of a need that ought to be filled by something new. Maybe this is where you find out how important it actually is to you.

Seri, the remedy for free speech you don't like is not less free speech, but more of it. There are many good answers to his claims, and to the way he uses scripture. From what I have seen so far in this forum, many people are aware of these other arguments. I don't want to go over his whole post, but I will say two things. First, using scripture simply as a lawbook is exactly the kind of thing that Jesus (and Paul for that matter) spoke against. This makes it tough to know how to live, day by day, but that is the danger of being Christian. As we said in another thread, you always have questions that you try to answer, not answers that exclude all questioning. Second, many modern Christians have argued that the relationships which Paul condemned were not the same as what we find among many contemporary gay and lesbian couples. Thirdly (I know I said "two things", but I am on a roll), while Paul was, without doubt, the most important figure in our faith after the death of Jesus, he was a man of his time and times change. The commandment to love does not change.

I too am ashamed that any church in today's world would look down on gays or lesbians. My part-time church (Presbyterian) has several gay couples and they are well received.
But, just so you know we aren't totally loving we ("we" didn't include "me") kicked a person, with high qualifications, off the group of elders (Session) because they were "living in sin".
And then we wonder why attendance is falling.