You want to be careful spelling the United Church as it could easily be the UNTIED CHURCH.

It could also be spelled "Hi, nude crutch!"

So what?

UNTIED rather than United CHURCH.

Other anagrams on "United Church". (Some I came up with used words I just won't repeat!)

HECTIC? DUH... RUN!

IT NUDE CHURCH.

DUET IN CHURCH!

UH... DIET CRUNCH?

UNHITCHED CUR.

INCHED CUR HUT.
UH...CHURNED TIC?
ICED HUTCH URN.
ICED HUTCH RUN.
ICED CHURN HUT.

INDUCER HUTCH!

CIDER HUTCH... NU?
CRIED "HUTCH"... NU?

UNCURED HITCH!
CRUDE UNHITCH?
CURED UNHITCH!

IN CRUDE HUTCH...

CRUDE CHI HUNT.

NICER DUCT, HUH?
UH, ENRICH DUCT?
HE DUCT URCHIN!
DUCT URCHIN, EH?

CUD ENRICH HUT.

THE CUD URCHIN.

DUH!!! CURT NICHE!

RUNIC TECH. DUH!!!
DUH. TECH INCUR!

DUH... RUNIC ETCH!

ICE CHURN... THUD!

DUH! CUTER CHIN!

CRUET CHIN. DUH?!?

INCH? DUH!!! TRUCE.

CURE HUTCH DIN!!!
CHIN THUD? CURE!

HUNCH... TIC RUED!
HUNCH - RUDE TIC!

HUNCH - CUR TIED!

HUNCH - DIRE CUT.

RUNIC ED HUTCH.

CUR DINE HUTCH.

UH - CHIN CUT. RED!

UH, END? RICH CUT.

HE RICH CUT DUN.
RICH CUT DUN, EH?

CHURN CHIT - DUE.

CHURN CUT HIDE!

CHURN CUT ID, EH?

CUR CUT HIND, EH?

ok, ok... so I'm bored! *LOL*

It is true that you guys are not united. There is such a wide span of beliefs. The Bible refers to the Church as Jesus' bride.

Many UCC members do not believe in the Bible or Jesus so how can they be the bride of someone they don't believe in?

Then I guess Madmonk is right. The United Church is neither United nor is it a Church.

We are both... united and a church, When it works.

Take the congregation I'm part of.

As I've said before, we have people in the pews who would say, "The Bible. The inerrent word of God." - and we've got people in the pews who would say, "The Bible... interest set of books." - and we've got everything in between.

We've got people in the pews would would say, "Jesus Christ, my personal Lord and Saviour." We've also got people who would say, "Jesus. Son of Mary. Rabbi. Prophet. Teacher." We've also got people who would say, "Jesus. Nice guy." We've even got people who would say. "Jesus of Nazareth? Literary construct... but a lot to learn from that mythopoeic reality!". And we've got everything in between.

Sometimes, our differences cause conflict. When facilitated well, that conflict has allowed us to learn more about ourselves, more about each other, and more about God.

When it works well, people from a variety of streams of Christianity are able to offer leadership and worship through their understanding... and it is accepted (even if not fully agreed with... or even fully understood) by others at the table.

When it works well, each of us translates what the other is saying into our own version of 'Christian-eeze" or "Faith-eeze" or lingo, or argot, or jargon. When one person says "Saviour" another translates that as "guide to the Divine".

When it doesn't work well... well.. then its a lot of work for the leadership, because trying to find the balance points can be painfully difficult.

That's the reality that General Council - layfolk and ministry personnel from across the UCCan, gathering to try and help us find direction in certain parts of our life as children of God and/or disciples of the Christ and/or people of faith.

Its not easy. In the big picture - Presbytery, Conference, National... we sometimes look at each other and (usually, in our own minds... and in our own idiom) say, "WTF?!?!!? Hey, God?! What is up with them?"

When that works well, we can sit down afterwards and really try to understand what the other is saying, living and believing.

When it doesn't work well... well... we fight. We get entrenched in the idea that "I'VE GOT THE RIGHT WAY!" And we hurt each other.
Sometimes, we find paths of reconciliation and forgiveness and hope.
Sometimes, we watch people leaving and going other places - other Christian denominations or other faith traditions.

And, many of us, quietly, say, "Go with God, sister/brother/friend."0

I guess its kind of hard to see from the outside.

Serena,

I like your new look!

And I always thought you were a Fox.

Be Blessed,
IB

Well Rev Ribott,

From your description it sounds more like a divided church than united. You see it's Jesus that unites us, so if everyone is worshipping a different Jesus then you will have unholy conflict.

Even your remark ""WTF?!?!!? Hey, God?! What is up with them?"

I'm guessing at your letters WTF and am not foreign to foul language, so if it is what I think it is, it doesn't matter that it is not said in full. God knows the heart.

What matters to me is that a church minister would use that kind of reference and claim to be a Christian minister of the Word.

God is not pleased with that and I would think the number one priority would be to please and glorify Him.

Psalm 109:17-18 (NKJV)
As he loved cursing, so let it come to him;
As he did not delight in blessing, so let it be far from him.
As he clothed himself with cursing as with his garment,
So let it enter his body like water,
And like oil into his bones.

Just an outside observation.

Be Blessed

Remove Post
I don't claim, IBelieve.

I am.

I am a minister of Word, Sacrament and Pastoral Care, called by God and the Christ to ordered (and ordained) ministry in the United Church of Canada.

Quite fortunate for me, for the Church and for God, that you don't have the ability to take that reality away.

As goes 'foul language'... well, you obviously haven't spent much time with the variety of folks that I have. *wry smile* Being Padre to the Legion has inured my ears to it.... as has spending time with skads of teens in the park across the street and at Timmy's.

I stand by my statement... sometimes, in the heat of passionate discourse, when my frustration and anger get past the point of rationality, that's exactly what I think.

Usually after a quick walk around the block (physically or mentally) I'm ready to sit down and say, "Ok... if you're willing, try again. Maybe this time I'll get it."

Shock of shocks, to many people, the United Church of Canada, in many places, is working, just the way I described it. Some would say by the grace of God. Others would say God's helping us grow in faith in spite of ourselves.

Fortunately, there are also other places that God speaks to people - both within and outsdie of the Christian faith - in which people who look at the UCCan and go, "No way!" can find place to worship that makes sense to them.

For that - and for the United Church of Canada, I say, "Alleluia!"

Well, if you see the word 'united' in front of the word church standing for unified, well I doubt that any church of any description would be 100% unified. Even a cult probably has a cult leader thinking a little differently than his followers/sheep. United means a blending of Presbyterianism, Methodism and Congregationalism to name a few ism's. More like a cookie dough with raisins and chocolate chips than a fruit smoothie. I like the Australian version of our church - they also combined P & M as well (don't know about C) but called themselves the UnitING Church of Australia, not UnitED. And we're still working on adding more if others are interested. It makes for a great debate and lively faith.

Serena,

Hi,

You wrote:

It is true that you guys are not united.

It is not true.

That assertion is either laziness or ignorance.

To be united is to stand together. That is what we do.

United is not Uniform.

Uniform speaks to sameness.

United speaks to differences ignored for common purpose.

When we speak of Canadian unity we do not mean that there is no difference between Newfoundland and Labrador and Quebec and Alberta and Nunavut. Those regions are quite disparate.

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are Canadians

Quebeckers are Canadians

Albertans are Canadians

Nunavutians are Canadians.

That is because being Canadian means 'standing with' not 'the same as'

Do we constantly agree with each other?

By no means.

Does that destroy our unity?

By no means.

Again, we invited any and all to come. And the invitation isn't enough for some they still feel the need to insult and criticize their hosts. If the party isn't to your liking go find someplace you are more comfortable.

If this is what makes you feel better, beating up on people you consider to be less faithful than yourself by all means keep it up.

I hope it strengthens your faith to belittle others.

Grace and peace to you

John

IBelieve,

Hi,

You wrote:

What matters to me is that a church minister would use that kind of reference and claim to be a Christian minister of the Word.

God forbid that we his servants would be human.

A month later and guests are still dumping on us because we can't be bothered living up to their expectations.

Thanks for coming out.

Thanks for modelling grace for us.

Your example of Christian charity is truly inspiring

I hope that the little bit of height you have gained for yourself stepping on us satisfies your need to be bigger.

Grace and peace to you.

John

United does not mean untied. It does not mean uniform either. The Song of Faith lets us know how different we all are. Being UCCan means you make room for those diferences. The United Nations are different cultures, languages, continents, customs and faiths. They only thing they have in common is what they feel is most important, living on this planet. They rarely are all in agreement. United Churches vary. The message, the congregation, the building, the clergy can all be different. Yet, they havin common what is most important to them, living on this planet. They are rarely all in agreement.

As brides of Christ, I think the words were... if one person looks towards her husband she sees the man who leaves his underwear on the floor, another sees the fella who keeps trying, still another sees the person who holds her when she cries, another will see a saint.
It depends on your mood, what has happened lately, whether you got to pick up underwear or were handed flowers.

As far as clergy using foul language, letting me know they get body odour and put their pants on the same as me makes them human, Clergy looked upon as godly and above reproach takes us back to times we would not want to revisit. I was very upset about something said, I was searching for words. I was not able to let my emotion out. I was on the phone with clergy. I needed to talk, but found the words impossible. I beat around the bush some more and finally, this wonderful, sweet person said, "what the %$#@? I did not have to worry about how I said what I felt anymore. Give me a human anyday over someone who thinks they are God's robot.

Revjohn: "United speaks to differences ignored for common purpose."

I hope not. I want my differences acknowledged. Also, my purposes may well be quite different from yours. However, I still feel united at least in the fact that you and I and many others can support one another in our unique journies.

As for ribott, you're just going to hell! When you get there, I'll be the one brewing the pot of coffee over the flaming sulphur. Free trade, of course.

theoblogger,

HI,

You wrote:

I hope not. I want my differences acknowledged.

Fair enough.

If I can suggest an amendment like the one that follows.

United means recognizing difference and respecting each other enough to continue together.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Yeah, ribbott, WTF is up with you saying WTF? Don't you know that our ordination vows made such things impossible? It comes with our new ability to pee out holy water.

And, for the record, I almost always typo united as untied. I handed in more than one paper during theological college with that typo undetected. It happens so often I have come to see it as a Freudian thing ;)

Ribott Said: "I stand by my statement... sometimes, in the heat of passionate discourse, when my frustration and anger get past the point of rationality, that's exactly what I think."

First of I am not condemning anyone for being human and I grew up in a family of profane language. I used it myself for many years. I have friends who use it quite frequently. I not offended drastically by it. I don't like it and made a choice not to use it 30 years ago. Choice is the word.

My friends say "don't you ever swear?" and my answer is that my "old man" might possibly come out if I drop a big enough anvil on my foot but generally I will say something else.

Ribott, I'm not saying that you might say something in the heat of the moment but this forum gives you plenty of time to choose your words. Plus as leaders we are called to be living testimonies.

You see the fact was, when challenged on it, you immediately gave excuse rather than recognizing the problem and apologizing to all you may have offended. I forgave you immediately but I was trying to make a point that Paul constantly was making with the Christians, to shake off the "old man or old self"

Romans 6:5-6 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

This crucifixion of the "old self" did not eradicate the old desires or motives. They continue to betray our "place of origin," as a tell-tale accent marks our speech. The crucifixion of the "old self" did not remove the pull of temptation. Instead, what happened was that the "body of sin" (that whole package of old and warped responses) was rendered powerless or inoperative (Romans 6:6). We will still feel the temptations, but are not in their power. Our days of slavery are ended. We are now free to choose the good.

Like Jesus, you and I are now alive to God, and we can choose to live for Him.

Paul says that as leaders we must make an extra effort to be reverent in all we do.

Titus 2:1-3 But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things-- AND
Titus 2:7-8 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility, sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you.

You see I don't look upon clergy as godly or above reproach by any means and John , I have never exalted myself above any person. I see my best as being filthy rags. What I am suggesting is a little bit of maturity.

Do I follow everything to a T or am I perfect? Not by a long shot but I do try to use scripture for my benchmark and the indwelling Spirit as my convictor. The key word there is "try", sincerely try. Not sluff it off to a "Cheap Grace" comment.

You call us guests dumping on you but when you hang your laundry on a line for the world, you should probably expect some criticism. Don't we graciously learn from this instead of becoming defensive.

Reminds me of a story in a garden. [He made me do it! She talked me into it and I'm only human. Plus YOU gave her to me!!]

Wow! Three blames in a row. No contrition there.

As new creations in Jesus, the "Adam" nature is buried. I try to remember that and when I fall I cry out to God and ask Him for forgiveness, even though I know He already has.

Steven Gordon said "as brides of Christ". Well we are not brides of Christ, we are all "THE BRIDE" of Christ singular. This where we all come to the united part. Therefore we should all be trying our best to look our best for the wedding. If a bride has a beautiful wedding dress on and gets a spot on it, she will try to get it out rather than say "It's just an old wedding dress, if he doesn't like it too bad for him. He needs to take me as I am"

Well God does take us as we are but in the truest sense of loving Him, wouldn't we want to strive to present ourselves as pure as we have the power to do.
Making excuses all the time is what kids do. We are to come to Him with childlike faith but we are to put away our childish ways.

Also John, are we not called, as Christian brothers, to help one another to stay the course?

2 Cor. 2:4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote to you, with many tears, not that you should be grieved, but that you might know the love which I have so abundantly for you.

Proverbs 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

So keep on keeping on, my friends. I am truly sorry if I offended any of you but are you truly offended or is the Holy Spirit groaning within you and causing some pain?

You are loved and yes by me too, [I'm sure you're all excited about that!]
Be Blessed - Truly

Ah... So, you would have prefered me to write, "[Expetive deleted]?!? Hey, God? What are they talking about?"

Ok. I'll remember that in the future.

I accept your admomintion, in this instance, apologize for my offence against you, and ask your forgiveness.

....

Now, I'm not offended, but I am wondering why you didn't feel it necesary to follow Christ's directions for conflict between members of the body, as presented in the gospel accorting to Matthew.

Its a pattern I've found particularly helpful... often helps the other to feel like what you're saying is actually important and gives you both a chance to explore it before deciding to get the whole community involved.

Blessings and peace - ribott

Rev John;

I respectfully disagree with you that the United Church is not united. That statement is neither lazy nor ignorant. I came to this conclusion after carefully reading many threads on this board. Pastors are not even required to believe in Jesus or the Bible even though the doctrine of the Church supports. If some pastors are Christians and some are not than the United Church is neither united or a Church as one of your own members, Madmonk, originally stated.

The Bible which some of the members of the United Church claim to believe and others claim it is archaic says that "those who are not for us are against us" Jesus said that "whoever claims that Jesus is the Son of God and He came in the flesh to die for our sins" is on our side. So, clearly there are two different sides in the United Church. They cannot both be right.

I also disagree with your statement that it makes me feel good to belittle others in their faith. It does not make me feel good. It makes me feel sad that the god of this world has blinded their eyes.

I also disagree with your statement that we as non UCC members are being ungracious guests. It is because of my love for God's people that I am saying these things rather than choosing to be popular on the board. If I were to go to someone's house in person I would do the same thing. It is better that I lose some friends in the process of speaking to truth to help others than that I remain popular and did not speak God's word and some may not end up in Heaven.

Canada is not united as a nation. I would really like Alberta to separate and Quebec as well. You know Quebec is a nation within a nation. That means that Albertans have to financially support Quebec because they are part of "Canada" but Quebec is its own nation. That is a bunch of crock. It does not even make sense.

My Dear friend Ribott,

You are loved and forgiven but the offence was not against me and I do not seek forgiveness or pretend to judge. I see the log in my eye quite frequently and tend to worry more about a message tainting the seekers than the actual act itself.
As to a private discussion, I'm quite familiar to the Matthew 18 procedure and use it mostly but I felt this was a discreet and anonymous site, so by bringing this to light it was not a direct shot at you.
I felt that after a month of watching many on this site, who profess to being Christian leaders of the United Church, being very irreverent (eg. RevMatt and his holy water statement - I'm sure there is a much nicer way of saying that) , it would be an opportunity to use as a learning point for all of us.
Isn't that why we all respond, so that we all learn something. The thing is do we respond as Jesus would or do we bring Him into the 21st century a changed god in our definition.
I like this site and want to look to the teachers as role models in this crazy world of terrible role models.

By the way, are you married?
If yes, then do you talk that way in front of your wife or children, if you have any?
That might be a way of comparing our actions.

When I tell a group that we all sin and have many in opposition, my simple statement is "If we could video tape your mind for the last week, could you show it to your mother?"

So yes, we had the whole community involved but they don't know who you are and you represented a multitude and you are sorry. I'm proud that you were able to be an example of humility and I pray I can be too. I hope you are glad to have been part of a holiness example and many have learned something from it.

I know I can't do it on my own but I do rely constantly on Phil 4:13

Be Blessed,
IB

Serena,

HI,

You wrote:

I came to this conclusion after carefully reading many threads on this board.

You came to a conclusion about the whole of the church based on what you have read here at Wondercafe.

How many members at Wondercafe are members of the United Church?

How many members at Wondercafe have identified themselves as clergy serving in the United Church?

How many members at Wondercafe have identified themselves as clergy at all?

How many members does The United Church of Canada have?

How many clergy persons does The United Church of Canada have?

You have used the anonymous postings of a few to come to the conclusion of the whole.

Serena that is laziness and ignorance.

You wrote:

If some pastors are Christians and some are not than the United Church is neither united or a Church as one of your own members, Madmonk, originally stated.

Disagreement does not equal disunity. The United Church of Canada as part of the Reformed Christian tradition understands that the Church exists as Reformed and Reforming. We will never be done with doctrinal discussion because doctrine is interpretation of Biblical texts and as we live and breathe we grow and some understandings change. That makes it necessary to continually address doctrinal issues.

Not to assert that they are carved in stone. The church is not a formerly living creature now becoming petrified. The church is an always living creature and how we, the members of any church treat each other, is far more important than the doctrine we squabble over.

Plus, MadMonk through the topic out for discussion it was not an assertion.

You quoted:

"those who are not for us are against us"

Which would you be then?

You wrote:

They cannot both be right.

You are right about that. I'm firmly convinced that if I continuously decided to fight about any one issue I wouldn't win anyone over. It wouldn't matter if I used scripture properly. If I spoke without love it wouldn't win anyone.

You wrote:

I also disagree with your statement that it makes me feel good to belittle others in their faith.

Then stop doing it.

You wrote:

It does not make me feel good. It makes me feel sad that the god of this world has blinded their eyes.

If God has blinded their eyes you don't have the p[ower to open them up again.

All you have the power to do is make them wish God had struck them deaf as well.

You wrote:

If I were to go to someone's house in person I would do the same thing. It is better that I lose some friends in the process of speaking to truth to help others than that I remain popular and did not speak God's word and some may not end up in Heaven.

Serena it would be better to lose a friend by speaking the truth but before you can lose a friend you have to make a friend.

It is interesting that you think this has something to do with being popular.

Your speaking is not the difference in anyone between heaven and hell. The difference between the two is God's grace or God's judgment.

You wrote:

Canada is not united as a nation.

I've trained in British Columbia. Interned in Alberta and Northern Ontario. Served in Newfoundland and Labrador and Southern Ontario. Without a doubt the people of those places identify themselves as Canadians.

You wrote:

That means that Albertans have to financially support Quebec because they are part of "Canada" but Quebec is its own nation. That is a bunch of crock. It does not even make sense.

Albertans are expected to contribute through their tax dollars to the good of the country. If some of those tax dollars are spent in Quebec that is for the good of the country.

My kids have no income. What kind of parent would I be if I kicked them to the curb tonight because I considered it a crock and nonsense to have to pay for their food, clothing and shelter.

It is called family Serena.

The reason why it doesn't make sense is because it is a matter of grace and grace is scandalous.

That someone unworthy or undeserving would still be rewarded.

Grace and peace to you.

John

IBelieve,

Hi,

You wrote:

You see I don't look upon clergy as godly or above reproach by any means and John , I have never exalted myself above any person. I see my best as being filthy rags. What I am suggesting is a little bit of maturity.

Except you didn't raise the objection to ribott's language as a matter of maturity you raised it directly as a concern about his fitness to minister.

You know less of the man than I do.

You wrote:

You call us guests dumping on you but when you hang your laundry on a line for the world, you should probably expect some criticism.

Constructive criticism I have no problem with.

You asked:

Also John, are we not called, as Christian brothers, to help one another to stay the course?

We are. I don't see much help going on here. You talk to me about hanging our laundry on a line for the world but you talk to ribott about thinking the site was discreet and anonymous which is it?

The correctional aspect probably works best when we build friendships first.

Building friendships is difficult if we spend a disproportionate amount of time listing the faults of the other.

You wrote:

I am truly sorry if I offended any of you but . . .

The addition of the 'but' makes it look like you aren't really offering an apology

Just an observation.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Rev John; you would not say that if it was your tax dollars supporting Quebec instead of mine. When your children are 40 or 50 will you still be supporting them as well? To you a happy Canadian Canada may be united. I disagree and I waiting for the day Alberta will separate. The rest of Canada can stay intact or not. It is of no difference to me.

You also raise some interesting points about the United Church. Obviously the Church has many more members and clergy that are not on the board.

The Church allows them to annonymously post in their name so the Church must not have a problem with their beliefs. But I do agree with you some people on the board who claim to be something may not actually be what they claim. I am thinking of Rev Matt. I have never heard a pastor speak so irreverently but I had not allowed for the possibility that he may not be who he says he is. Now, I am not bothered nearly so much by his statements as I am beginning to doubt his posted identity.

Yes, MadMonk threw the topic out for discussion and I am discussing it.

Sorry, IBelieve... but if you were not offended, then I have no one to whom I must make apology. If someone was offended by the acronymn I used, then they are welcome to let me know. If that happens I will offer apology and ask their forgiveness.

IBeleive wrote..
"As to a private discussion, I'm quite familiar to the Matthew 18 procedure and use it mostly but I felt this was a discreet and anonymous site, so by bringing this to light it was not a direct shot at you. I felt that after a month of watching many on this site, who profess to being Christian leaders of the United Church, being very irreverent (eg. RevMatt and his holy water statement - I'm sure there is a much nicer way of saying that) , it would be an opportunity to use as a learning point for all of us."

So... your post was not calling me - ribott - to task for using an acronymn that included an expletive (which an individual would have to read into it)... but to raise a concern about language in general? Sorry... to raise a concern about ministers using such language. (Although the use of that language did not offend you?)

"Isn't that why we all respond, so that we all learn something."

But you didn't respond with a general, "you know, this is a point at which I'd like to chat about my concern regarding 'people who profess that they are Christian leaders' using language that some people - though not me - might find offensive". You decided to make it a personal statement about something that I posted. That moves it into the realm of sibling to sibling.

"The thing is do we respond as Jesus would or do we bring Him into the 21st century a changed god in our definition."

But... you aren't Jesus. Neither am I. We're both disciples... and he gave some pretty explicit instructions on how to deal with offence given between siblings.

Oh. Wait. I didn't give offence to you... right?

"By the way, are you married?
If yes, then do you talk that way in front of your wife or children, if you have any? That might be a way of comparing our actions."

I am neither your spouse nor your parent. The phrase that I used is one that, in the context of my social cohort (age, place in life, social strata, etc.), would have been totally passed by as anything except an acronymn stating overwhelming frustration. Most of them would laugh that I felt it necessary to use an acronymn, rather than its full form.

Would I have used it with the UCW? No. I would have used something like, "Oh Dear God in Heaven! What are they going on about, now?" to describe that level of frustration. Would I have used it with the Church Board? No. Would I have used it with a group of school children? No. Would I have used it in a group about my age, sitting around a pub or kitchen table, talking about how frustrating moments hit us across the back of the head...? Yes.

The mistake I made was expecting that the wondercafe is more like sitting at the kitchen or pub table than sitting for my orals.

"When I tell a group that we all sin and have many in opposition, my simple statement is "If we could video tape your mind for the last week, could you show it to your mother?""

*blink* There is nothing in my post that I could not have comfortably taken to my mother, or to God. She (my mother or God, for that matter) might raise an eyebrow at the phrase, but would understand that it was used as an contexutally based emphatic example. And, before you start taking Mom to task, she's a long time Principal, School Teacher, Lay Worship Leader, and compassionate Christian.

"So yes, we had the whole community involved but they don't know who you are and you represented a multitude and you are sorry. I'm proud that you were able to be an example of humility and I pray I can be too. I hope you are glad to have been part of a holiness example and many have learned something from it."

I'm having some difficulty with this, IB. What I am hearing, though you may very well not be meaning it, is an extremely high level of condescention.

My difficulty with this is that I made an apology to someone who seems to be saying to me that there was no need to apologize to them.

Offence cannot be given where none is taken.

So, the honest apology that I made to you, in good faith, has no meaning.

I'm going to have to walk away from this one for a while, IB. Right now, I can't get my head around what just happened here.

Bright blessings and Christ's peace -

Richard

Well,

I became a member of the United Church about 7 years ago. I was in my mid 30s. I went to a service was welcomed and didn't feel judged. Someone handed me a bible asked me to read it and think about it. WOW, I fell in love with the church from then on. What a gift it is to be able to use ones mind and have the freedom to interpret. Knowledge is power and I feel empowered by my church.

What a gift it is to get to know God in a kind and caring way with others who are open to exploring their spiritual conections. I am not able to quote scripture when it is convenient and I have no desire to learn. I do want a welcoming enviroment where I can feed my spirit and learn to walk humbly with my God everyday. That is why I chose the United Church over all others.

Serena: You said "the rest of Canada can stay intact or not. It is of no difference to me."

That hurts!!!! I thought sharing about God was supposed to be uplifting? Are all people from Alberta as cold as you? Why don't you move to the States. I wouldn't invite you to my home because you have just insulted me by saying I mean nothing to you. You wouldn't come anyway because I'm not good enough for you.

I get the impression that you want the United Church to dissolve. You would love it if it fell apart. I thought the other faiths around me accepted me. It doesn't sound that way from the way you talk. You seem to want to get everyone fighting. If it's not your way, it's the highway. That's why the United Church is great. They don't drive people away. I don't want to be called Christian anymore if I have to be lumped into the same group as you. Maybe people don't come to church so much because they come across people with your meanness and disapproving manner.

I don't intend to listen to anything you have to say anymore. I don't care if you care. And I don't have any problem with what RevMatt said. Lighten up. You seem very tense.

Thanks RevJohn. We need lots of people like you around. You're very tolerant and warm. I read this whole thread because I was trying to find what I thought someone might have shared - that the United Church was called united because it brought together three faiths into one. I can't remember what they all were - Congregational, Methodist and Presbyterian?

jeanct62 said"why don't you move to the States" because Alberta is my home. I do not like being taxed more than the people in Eastern Canada. That is why I want to separate. The other provinces are always looking for handouts and the oil is ours.

As far as RevMatt's tastless comments that is another issue entirely if you are comfortable with a "minister of the gospel" using profanity. I did not realize that I was in a bar.

Paul said in his writings "let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouth"

I do not want the United Church to dissolve but I am not a member so it would not affect me if it did. However, I do think with they give very mixed messages with regards to salvation and other issues and are giving Christianity a bad name in general. But definitely no worse than the RC Church years ago and they are cleaning up their image.

Revjohn said "God forbid that we his servants would be human." I know pastors are human but you would think they would have moved a little above swearing in their maturity level and walk with God. If not what do they have to teach us who are not pastors?

Richardblott and Revmatt should be better examples. If I had children who were reading this sight. How would I teach them not to swear when clergy men are swearing and making irreverent comments about peeing?

Richardblott maybe you would take that home to your mother but I sure would not? Are your sermons as colorful?

Serena,

Hi,

You wrote:

you would not say that if it was your tax dollars supporting Quebec instead of mine.

Contrary to popular opinion clergy pay taxes. I'd also be willing to wager that as a resident of Ontario I contribute more tax dollars per year to the Federal budget than you do aa a resident of Alberta. I'm not contributing as much now as when I served in Newfoundland and Labrador.

You asked:

When your children are 40 or 50 will you still be supporting them as well?

There is a very strong possibility that when my child who has been diagnosed with an Autism Spectrum Disorder as well as a Bi-Polar Disorder is 40 or 50 I may still be supporting them. It is another 25 to 35 years away. I might be dead by then and if that is the case I hope I planned well enough for that child's sake.

With your attitude towards taxes I don't think I can count on you for any help looking after my son after I'm gone.

God forbid you have a child with a similar diagnosis because if your attitude towards taxes prevails that child will face the bleakest of futures when you are also gone.

You wrote:

I disagree and I waiting for the day Alberta will separate. The rest of Canada can stay intact or not. It is of no difference to me.

Alberta's oil won't flow forever and when it is gone Albertan's are going to experience the same pain Newfoundland and Labrador knows now with the decimation of their natural resource.

You'll probably be dead by then so it won't be your problem.

Jesus might come back before then also so nobody will have to worry.

But an independant Alberta without oil to power the economy would be destitute. Something for the grandkids to worry about.

You wrote:

The Church allows them to annonymously post in their name so the Church must not have a problem with their beliefs.

Actually, the part of the Church that runs Wondercafe has no say in who will or won't be ordained/commissioned/recommended as Wondercafe. The individuals on the development and administration have the right to be nominated as Presbyters and in that capacity they can have a say in who will or won't be ordained/commissioned/recommended.

Also the church that grants them the privilege of anonymity grants it to you as well. I don't know that Serena is your actual name do I? And I gather you don't look exactly like your avatar. Your profile says you are a teacher in Alberta and I see no reason to doubt that. Could just be me being naive.

Another thing about clergy being allowed to be anonymous on this site.

Anything we post here can be used as a weapon against us to end our ministry careers. Could the same be used against you?

You wrote:

But I do agree with you some people on the board who claim to be something may not actually be what they claim.

It goes farther than that Serena. Some may be more than they claim. It is entirely possible that some that you agree with most often are clergy in the United Church themselves. There is no way for you to know unless they let you know.

You wrote:

I am thinking of Rev Matt. I have never heard a pastor speak so irreverently but I had not allowed for the possibility that he may not be who he says he is.

I'm pretty confident that RevMatt is a minister within the United Church.

I'm also pretty confident that if you judge him and his ability by what he posts here I'm going to call you lazy and ignorant again.

Every test I had to pass to be ordained RevMatt had to pass. If you were to be ordained by the United Church you would have to pass everything that RevMatt and myself had to pass.

Have you been present when RevMatt has been called to the hospital at 2am on a Sunday morning? Were you with him as he ministered to a family in crisis until 9:30am? As he walked into the pulpit at 10am and lead the congregation in public worship were you there? And if you were there waiting to worship and he walked in with bloodshot eyes and possibly a little irritability born of frustration and fatigue would you assume he had been up too late and was setting a poor example for the congregation to follow?

I respect he doesn't live up to your ideals of what a minister should be.

Honestly though, that is entirely your problem. Unless he is your minister.

You wrote:

Now, I am not bothered nearly so much by his statements as I am beginning to doubt his posted identity.

Again, you are jumping to conclusions.

Grace and peace to you.

John

jeanct62

Hi,

You wrote:

Thanks RevJohn. We need lots of people like you around.

Thank you.

You wrote:

You're very tolerant and warm.

I have my moments.

You wrote:

the United Church was called united because it brought together three faiths into one.

Technically we didn't. We brought together three different denomination all sharing the Christian faith.

You wrote:

I can't remember what they all were - Congregational, Methodist and Presbyterian?

Your memory works just fine. Those are the three and if the Anglicans had let go of bishops then the Anglican Church of Canada would have entered Church Union in 1972 or sometime about then. Which is why the United and Anglican Churches in Canada shared the same hymn book for a number of years.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Serena,

Hi,

You wrote:

I know pastors are human but you would think they would have moved a little above swearing in their maturity level and walk with God.

Interestingly I don't remember maturity being a test of our call. I made one of my youth laugh so hard he blew raw cauliflower out his nose. I promise you maturity had nothing to do with that.

Their anonymity allows them to blow off some steam.

Is it immature? Yup.

Do I have a problem with that? Well I'm not above a little immaturity myself. Especially if I can get a teen to hork raw cauliflower out his nose.

You asked:

If not what do they have to teach us who are not pastors?

Patience.

You wrote:

Richardblott and Revmatt should be better examples.

Why? Are they somehow better than the rest of us?

You asked:

If I had children who were reading this sight. How would I teach them not to swear when clergy men are swearing and making irreverent comments about peeing?

How would you teach them not to swear when their friends are doing it in the school yard.

You wrote:

Richardblott maybe you would take that home to your mother but I sure would not?

Fair enough. He isn't taking it home to your mother either.

You wrote:

Are your sermons as colorful?

Blue is the colour of Advent.

Booo-yah. Liturgical humour. I probably could have resisted but I think that is really funny. That was a great set up thanks.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Serena...

Part of me would like to say, "Come and see". Or, better yet, take a moesey on over to our website and have a listen.

You'd be surprised.

If by 'colourful' you mean, "Do you swear?" the answer is no.
If by 'colourful' you men, "Do you use a variety of forms including storytelling, drama, monologue, dialogue, conversation, etc. etc. bloomin' etc. to work to help people explore the Gosple?", the answer is yes.

I don't tend to swear. I don't tend to curse. (Though, I would argue that there are places and times when it *is* a pastoral tool. Perhaps one that people who have never ministered in such situations would recognize, but real, nonetheless)

What I find both frustrating and hilarious is that if anybody had taken the time to read the post that has gotten folks ticked with me, they'd realize that I was careful enough *NOT* to swear. I used an acronymn. God may have known "what was in my heart"... but nobody else.

You filled it in.

I could have used the phrase you were expecting - but, hey, I don't tend to use the such words - in 'real life' or 'virtual'.

Once again - I was using the acronymn as a way of showing people the level of frustration that we sometimes have to deal with in community... and the fact that we, in the UCCan, often get past the frustration and continue to work to be faithful people.

I still don't understand how that topic got hijacked.

Wow, thanks, everyone. I feel well defended.

Serena, I have already replied to your message and told you where my churches are, and that you would be welcome to come for a visit if you are in the Ottawa area. If you are genuinely interested in coming for a visit, and not simply seeking a chance to attack me in person, the invitation stands.

As it does for anyone on this site. There is nothing I have said here that I haven't said at a Presbytery meeting, never mind while we're all out for beer afterwards.

Canada is my home.

Serena obviously loves the United Church; she's here in a United Church discussion room more than anyone else.

Apparently her church doesn't have a place where people can freely express their beliefs, questions and doubts.

Oh well, we'll take you Serena, even if you don't think much of our theology. Good thing you're not God :-)

Heart,

The Monk

I remember the first time I encountered someone who had a belief system that was different than mine. Mine is about deeds, I do onto others and try hard not to cast any stones. Sometimes I find that when I announce my United Church fellowship to the general public I get a mixed result. At one time a woman shook her head and told me that the UCC was way off base as far as scripture goes. It was a complete paradigm shift for me since prior to that she was talking about getting rid of the homeless people downtown. Ridding ourselves of those less fortunate is so far away from anything Jesus taught. I realized it is just two very different mind sets. I will get to heaven based on my interaction with others. I will live my life in the manner that Jesus taught.

I am interested in how other UCC members deal with this situation.

Revjohn Do you think calling me ignorant and lazy makes Rev Matt any better of a minister?

Yes, Revmatt you invited me to your church but you still did not tell me where it is exactly. So, I still wonder if you have a church.

Revjohn children will swear on the schoolyard and get in trouble from the teachers. Rev Matt a supposed pastor swears and makes off color jokes as part of his pastoring job and people defend his right to be obscene. How are kids going to learn what is right and what is wrong?

Madmonk I don't go to Church and it that decision did not come about because I could not express my beliefs.

Serena,

Hi,

You wrote:

Do you think calling me ignorant and lazy makes Rev Matt any better of a minister?

If I wanted to make RevMatt a better minister I'd have to sit down with RevMatt and find out if he trusted me to do the job and then watch him at work to see how he does his job. I haven't seen anything that leads me to conclude that RevMatt needs my help.

The point of calling you ignorant and lazy is to highlight that you are being ignorant and lazy.

You are judging the man and his fitness for ministry on a joke you didn't like.

That is ignorant because you are completely uninformed and unaware of all that RevMatt does as a minister.

That is lazy because you show an aversion or a disinclination to do the work necessary to get to know RevMatt well enough to make a judgment concerning his fitness as a minister.

Several times in this thread you have made huge leaps of logic operating not on fact but speculation.

If you had just dumped on RevMatt for crude humour I would have kept out of it. You decided that you had to question the authenticity of his call to ministry. I'm not letting that pass.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Serena,

Hi,

You wrote:

Rev Matt a supposed pastor

Now you are simply being disrespectful. I have said RevMatt is an ordained minister in the United Church. Not only do you continue to question the call he has recieved from God but you seem to think I am lying to you about his standing.

The conversation just gets better and better.

You wrote;

swears and makes off color jokes as part of his pastoring job

Unless RevMatt is part of the admin here at Wondercafe nothing he does here is considered part of his pastoring job.

What he does here could be used against him if any had the inclination or the desire to cause him grief.

Once more, you have made a tremendous leap in your logic. Or I guess it would be more accurate for me to point out that you are persisting in making one glaring leap of logic.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Revjohn; "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." So by our words and actions we are judged both here on earth and in Heaven. If Revmatt has such irreverent things in his heart than I would not want him for a pastor.

Still you think that you have the right to call ME ignorant and lazy when I complain about a clergyperson swearing and telling crude jokes. You are mistaken if you think that it is only one post that has caused me to make this judgement however I will not in a public forum list all the things I think about Rev. Matt or anyone else because that would not be fair.

If the purpose of the cafe is to get people to join the UC then how would a swearing pastor help that?

Wait...

Serena doesn't go to church and yet she spews this Calvinistic theology all over the place like a shaken-up warm can of Pepsi on a summer's day?

Isn't that the height of hypocrisy to shame others into believing in her God when she doesn't regularly attend church in a faith community where UCC people go each week and live their faith and donate money to keep churches open all the while serving the world's poor and challenging oppressors in Jesus' name and SHE thinks WE have it all wrong?

(unless you are sick at home, in which case I am sorry Serena.)

Oh my sweet baby Jesus riding a pinstriped pogo stick that bugs me.

But I do love you Serena. In a non-commital, never-gonna-ever-meet-ya sort of way.

MM

Madmonk God never said in the Bible that you have to go to Church. I also did not say I do not tithe. In fact you would be quite surprised to know that I actually have been tithing to the United Church. I also do volunteer work with a number of local charities. How is this hypocritical?

Perhaps, we should stop typing and pray.
The letters that were typed were "WTF", which could be "What the fudge" or "Why the Filth"... it is not that someone offended anyone. It is, in reality, one's own thinking that offended them.
If the word is #$%@, then it is because your interpretation of the letter F is a curse word and you probably swear. If the word is Fudge, then you probably do not curse and/or try not to. If someone read the letter F as #$%@ and is offended, then they need to quit offending themselves with words they do not use, despise and cannot tolerate.
It is quite common that a word stirs this type of response. Interpretations, perceptions , images and understandings pop into one's head that are offensive and vile to one's own self. Perhaps this a simple case of what is commonly referred to as "a dirty mind"?

You're not keeping the Sabbath.

What we learn about God and the teachings of Jesus is through community reflection on scripture, and how the Spirit speaks to us.

Not sitting at home eating cheesies writings cheques to the church.

I hope you didn't get cheesy finger prints all of your red-letter edition of the New King James version of the Bible.

Did you know that Jesus didn't speak Shakespearean english?

Or how about (in keeping with RevMatt's idea)

WTFWJD

*What the F*** would Jesus do?*

I like that one. And if I could get a t-shirt that said that, I would.

But Madmonk what kind of twisted ideas do you guys have about God? At least I do not wake up early Sunday morning just to listen to someone swear and tell crude jokes?

One another note: That is a good idea to eat cheezies while I read the Bible. I have been painting my nails.

StephenGordon Revmatt admitted that he used an abbreviation of a swear word he did not mean what the fudge.

Madmonk said "You're not keeping the Sabbath.

What we learn about God and the teachings of Jesus is through community reflection on scripture, and how the Spirit speaks to us."

You don't believe in the Sabbath anyway because you don't believe in the Bible. Keeping the Sabbath Saturday or Sunday whichever day you prefer does not have to include going to Church" So, yes I do keep the Sabbath.

You don't believe in Jesus anyway so why would you want to learn about His teachings? You don't believe in the Bible so why would you reflect on it? I would not reflect with a community anyway because I like studying on my own. Less chance of false doctrine getting in.

Na, Serena, no twisted ideas about God. Just a lot of faithful people trying to understand how God works in their lives and in the world. Not always agreeing, but always faithful.

Do you wear tin foil on your head?

Isn't Serena a witch's name??? I'm sure the Wiccans would love to have you among their circle.

If I wasn't a Christian I would become a wiccan in a snap of a finger. (They get to wear capes!)