Of course Jesus is a defense attorney. Maybe if you would take time to read your Bible instead of insulting people...Oh yeah love your neighbour is in the Bible too no wonder you missed that.

Jesus is the one who plays "lawyer" so to speak when we go to Heaven and the Devil reads our sins to God the judge and then Jesus says "But I died for them so no penalty"

If you would think a little instead of writing the first thing that comes to your mind YOU might sound a little more intelligent than a first grade whining "thats dumb" on the playground.

I'm very glad for defense attorneys since, in their absence, it would be society of vigilante justice and, who among us is immune from being in the wrong place at the wrong time? And, without getting into all the technical issues around OJ specifically, how do you know all the things you've read in the paper or have seen on TV are true? You, unless you are OJ's personal confidante or priest, only know what the media tells you, only that -- no more and no less.

Thank God for the justice system here, however imperfect it is (since it's made up of imperfect human beings), it is part of living in a civlized society.

One of my dad's best friends growing up became a defense attorney.

He hated it, because of the things he had to do (Defend people he ~knew~ were guilty) he became an alcoholic, he was depressed, a number of things.

Needless to say, he's quit and is better now.

It's important to remember they don't always have a say in who they defend, and their place in society is too important to get rid of.

They gotta eat too. It's their job to defend those people and it's assumed that if they fail then the person they are defending is guilty. A loose quote from the Magna Carta, "and no one shall be prosecuted unless by the rightful judgement of his peers". This means that a judge can't just say "you're the criminal! you go the jail!" Jurors have to come to a consensus about the trial to make it fair for the crown or procecutor and the defendant. The defendant may be innocent and it's up to the jurors to find out.

So the defence attorneys are just doing their jobs and are not bad people themselves. If anything, they are good people for doing the crappy parts of being a lawyer that many lawyers don't want to do.

I think that it is a hard job and that I don't always agree with the tactics that they sometimes resort to but I think that prosecutors have a rough go of it too. How do you know who you are prosecuting is really guilty? What if you make a mistake? Unfortunately there sometimes are mistakes that are made but someone needs to defend people and make sure that they get a fair trial even if it means defending people who have done horrible things and someone needs to represent the other side (the people). Our justice system is imperfect but we are at least trying to make sure no one gets an unfair trial. Innocent until proven guilty.

Jesus is also a defense attorney,

"Jesus is also a defence attorney"

This has to be the single dumbest thing I've read on this site so far.

Quote=blackbelt: With O.J's new book coming out, I started to wonder: How do you feel about people who make a living helping murderers, rapists, and child molesters go free? If you were like Michael Jackson or O.J. Simpson, I'm guessing you would feel pretty good about them. Also, if you were a defense attorney, and you knew your client was guilty, would you try your best to help your client get a "not guilty" verdict, or would you just do the minimum of what you're required to do? Thanks!

I understand your feelings--I often share them--but i also realise the necessity of good defense attorneys. They keep prosecutors honest. With a good defense lawyer offering a zealous defense on behalf of his/her client, we can be that much more certain that the police and the prosecutors did their jobs thoroughly and well, and hence that justice was truly served.

Still.
I know what you mean.

blah: please refer to the new "guidelines of conduct" (link on the left column). She's entitled to express her opinion about Jesus without being personally attacked. Your post may be removed or you can even be banned from the site now for such comments.

As for the topic, I'm married to a lawyer who's a litigator. He doesn't do criminal work any more, but he used to and his firm does. It's not like you see on TV. For the large part if one's client is guilty the lawyer is just trying to ensure that justice is done properly - not "get them off" with whatever tactics they can use. My husband used to look at it as defending the charter of rights, not defending the person. Defense attorneys ensure that we can all feel safe if we're ever wrongly accused.

Just expressing my opinion.

Sometimes people make malicious charges; sometimes people try to use the law as a weapon to hurt another. According to our own Justice Statistics branch 13% of child abuse charges during divorce are malicious, another 25% are just plain wrong.

According to the best data we have, 11% of those in prison who say they are innocent, REALLY ARE INNOCENT.

Who is going to protect the innocent? Someone has to do it ...

Innocent people will be charged with crimes, it does happen! Someone has to protect them.

As RevAnna says, someone also has to protect the Charter, to make sure that the trial is fair.

I know two people who have been tried and convicted of crimes they did not and there's no way the could even remotely commit. Both of these 'convicted criminals', under the Legal Aid system, have been failed by defense attorneys.
I know there are some lawyers looking for 'justice' in the justice system but what is it truly going to take? Both of these people have lost time out of their lives and the respect of some family members.
Frustrated with the 'legal system' in general...

A defense attorney's job is to ensure that the law is applied fairly. They aren't allowed to knowingly lie themselves, or to allow their clients to lie, which is why a good defense attorney never asks their client whether they did it or not. But everyone, regardless of what they have or haven't done, deserves to have the law fairly applied.

As a lawyer I think I might have someting to say about this. First of all, please don't say "defense attorneys" -- please say "defence counsel", lawyer, solicitor, barrister or advocate. "Attorney" is really only an American expression -- pet peeve of mine.

I think defence counsel play a VERY important spiritual role. There are numerous reference in scripture to "setting the captive free". God does not want secular authorities locking up innocent people.

How I think most defence lawyers letigimacy what they do is that they act on behalf of the citizenry against the state. If the state wasn't held to its strict duties of: due process, something called "natural justice", proof beyond a reasonable doubt, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, etc. etc. any one of us could end up in jail -- regardless of guilt or innocents. There would be a temptation to lock up political opponents, by calling them criminals (eg. Zimbabwe). It is important to our political system and important to our secular and spiritual freedom that due process occur.

From my experience, the only two who is ever sure of the guilt or innocents of a person pleading "not guilty" is the accused and God. It is not the role of defence counsel to make their decision on this.

Defence lawyers are important to people up on charges and, as freedom is important to Him, important to God. If the guilty person goes free, the failure is on the part of the prosecutor -- maybe he or she should be turned away at the pearly gates?

Blah said: "This has to be the single dumbest thing I've read on this site so far."

I have to disagree with you Blah. Serena has taken the idea that Christ is our "advocate" straight out of scripture (I John 2:1).

Right. God is everyhing. Er, make that everything we AGREE with or feel COMFORTABLE with or APPROVE of. The rest is Satan. How very convenient.

Blah, I'm not sure that I follow. How has anyone just caved in because it is comfortable or agreeable. There is nothing agreeable about criminal trials. Could you expand your point please?

How come we have to pay lawyers in order to have the democratically enacted legislation of our country work for us as it should? Jesus was a defender of various "sinners", but they apparently weren't charged by the hour.

Why do we have to pay Ministers to know our Creator? I don't recall the collection being taken at any of Christ's sermons, other than five loaves and two fish. If you are happy going to Court with out a lawyer -- go to it and good luck.

Jesus and his disciples had a common purse, as did early Christian communities. Paul certainly mentions donations and carrying dosh around. Probably alms? Or income from hourly fees?
But, of course, the law never worked very effectively for them back then.

Oh yeah: I'd happily go to church without a lawyer, and I've only experienced church collections as voluntary offerings.

I would happily do legal work pro bono, if your wife shared her common purse with me. Perhaps you know that there was a time when lawyers were clergy and paid through Church income. Why did the church start cheaping out on people's civil rights?

Alas, poor Jeffrey - you identify yourself as a lawyer and immediately become the brunt of the conversation. Jokes would be better, eh?

Okay, okay...I've got one....(my husband's got a million of 'em) This is even apropos to the conversation. A couple dies on their wedding day before the wedding and they go to heaven and ask St. Peter if they can get married up there. So Peter goes away and comes back a few years later and says "yes, we've worked it out - you can get married". The couple says - "well, it's been so long now we wanna know...if it doesn't work out, can we get a divorce?" And Peter says "geez, it took me years to find a minister up here - now you want me to find a lawyer?"

Jeffery, trust me. You are doing far better on the private pay roll than you would be on the church's :)

Oh, and thanks for the clarification about the term attorney. I was wondering about that.

To respond to the topic - fortunately, the O.J. project has been scrapped. Defence lawyers and civil litigation lawyers like me, are critical for the adminstration of justice. It is not up to the criminal defence lawyer to adjudge whether their client is "guilty" under the law. That is for the Court. Any decent defence lawyer will tell you that. The defence lawyer is there to present the best defence their client has. Most lawyers act in the best interests of their client and within the realm of criminal law, that can sometimes mean pleading to a lesser offence. Do defence lawyers go to heaven? If they are saved, they do which has nothing to do with how they do their jobs.

Riddle: Why does New Jersey have the highest number of toxic waste dumps per capita and California have the highest number of lawyers per capita?

Answer: Because New Jersey got first dibs!

If you don't value and believe in the role of defense attorneys, then you don't believe in our justice system. What alternative system did you have in mind exactly?

In the Old Testament the Devil was an attorney, the accuser of mankind and God was a our defense.
Justice is harmony, finidng what is good for the Whole. The whole includes, unfortunetly, criminals. For there to be true justice we must do what is good for them as well as the innocent. That does not mean we do not punish them or let them go or get all wishy washy on them.

I like Serena's notion of Jesus as the defense lawyer. After all, look at the story of the woman caught in adultery. A perfect example of lawyering...he heard as the law was presented as a means of convicting the woman, but Jesus does a brilliant job of raising doubts about guilt and innocence in the minds of the teachers of the law. I love the ironic twist to this story.

And, by the way, I don't think Jesus really liked the lawyering stuff. Didn't he promise to send an "advocate" once he died? (Groan)

Hi Jeffrey

A common purse? We could be on to something here. You put in what you have, we'll put in what you have and we'll have a common purse. We are in the red at the moment, maybe you're in deeper?, and I don't quite make in into a Canadian tax bracket. But don't worry; we don't have much call for legal work either.

A lawyers Job Is to make sure his client gets a fair trial, what if his lawyer knows his client is guilty of murdered, will the lawyers position be " screw it I want fame and fortune " in this case is he just as guilty will h ego to hell? , or will he walk away and let some other lawyer take the money and glory of a high profile murder trial .

Who goes to heaven? Attornies? Football players? Isn't fascinating how we can spend good time trying to figure out who's on the bad end judgement stick. It usually is somebody we disagree with or have a grudge against. VVery convenient. Perhaps everyone enters the Presence of God - and remains there - after death. That seems to be the thrust of both Old and New Testamentas. For a thoughtful reference, read If Grace is True, by P. Gulley and J. Mulholland (Harper San Francisco) That should piss some of us off!

Defense attorneys are a must in free and just democratic society. Anyone being criminally charged, whether innocent or guilty, is facing the possibility of a vast imposition on their rights. Everyone has the right to defend themselves, however, most of us wouldn't know where to begin in a court of law. This is where defense lawyers come in. They ensure that justice is carried out within the scope of due process, so that their clients rights to a fair trial are met, and they play a key role in keeping the innocent out of prison (which has happened to the extreme in Canada's history-recall the David Milgaard case http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-74-713-4229/people/milgaard/clip11).

As for heaven... if God is as just as he claims to be, then he understands the need for a system such as ours (flawed as it is) and recognizes the importance of the role of the defense attorney. Remember that defense attorneys are under no obligation to lie, nor are their clients under any obligation to confess to them. There are probably many practicing defense attorneys who maintain integrity (probably equal to or more than prosecutors who do the same).

Dear UP2_IT

I'm quite surprised at your language since you profess to be an educator and a United Church Minister.
Anyway, in a nutshell, the people that don't go to heaven are the ones that don't want to and the Lord, being the loving God He is, honours their desires in a final act.
Personally, I pray that everyone accepts the Lord and the invitation to eternal life with Him. I know that the worst of them will be a new creation, so it won't be the one's we disagree with or dislike. They will all be Christlike.
Jesus tells us of the other side and the regret once there in the parable:

Luke 16:22-31 (Msg)
"Then he died, this poor man, and was taken up by the angels to the lap of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell and in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham in the distance and Lazarus in his lap. [24] He called out, 'Father Abraham, mercy! Have mercy! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water to cool my tongue. I'm in agony in this fire.'
[25] "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that in your lifetime you got the good things and Lazarus the bad things. It's not like that here. Here he's consoled and you're tormented. [26] Besides, in all these matters there is a huge chasm set between us so that no one can go from us to you even if he wanted to, nor can anyone cross over from you to us.'
[27] "The rich man said, 'Then let me ask you, Father: Send him to the house of my father [28] where I have five brothers, so he can tell them the score and warn them so they won't end up here in this place of torment.'
[29] "Abraham answered, 'They have Moses and the Prophets to tell them the score. Let them listen to them.'
[30] " 'I know, Father Abraham,' he said, 'but they're not listening. If someone came back to them from the dead, they would change their ways.'
[31] "Abraham replied, 'If they won't listen to Moses and the Prophets, they're not going to be convinced by someone who rises from the dead.' "

Be Blessed

Like fingernails on a chalk board. If you feel it necessary to use the term, could you at least spell it the Canadian way -- "defence attorney"?

Jeffery wrote:

Like fingernails on a chalk board. If you feel it necessary to use the term, could you at least spell it the Canadian way -- "defence attorney"?

Ok, good point, I suppose. So, let's all cut our fingernails and use the proper spelling. I assume that you're talking about "defence" as opposed to "defense". I can't break myself of the "defense" spelling, because I learned it as a derivative of Latin: "defensum".

So, I guess you would call this "de fence post!!!" as in "no more sitting on de fence post!

Jefferey:

I don't really think we "have to pay Ministers to know our Creator ..." We can do that quite nicely on our own. However, if we do want someone to preside at church services on Sunday, compose and deliver the sermons (that's about ten hours of preparation work per sermon, I've been told), visit the sick, counsel people, sit in all those committee meetings, oversee the church's administration and finances, and so on and so forth - I don't know anyone who would be willing to do all those things for free, do you?

Actually, I think what ministers are paid is a crime. It's way too little (at least for ours, can't speak for all of them).

blackbelt:

I read a couple of fascinating biographies many years ago by famous defense attorneys (they were both American, hence my use of that term). One was by Louis Nizer. He told story after story of people whose cases he took on, people he clearly felt were wrongly accused and who were at risk of having great injustice done to them. In each of the described cases, he secured verdicts of Not Guilty. In each case, he described his role as being that of a truth seeker, helping the court and the jury to see that his clients were truly innocent of the charges. His accounts were quite convincing and certainly sounded very sincere.

The second book was by F. Lee Bailey, also about a series of cases in which his clients were acquitted. However, in contrast to Nizer, he almost seemed to be saying "I, F. Lee Bailey, got these people off through my brilliance." Whether they were innocent or not seemed to be beside the point.

Interesting that Bailey was involved in OJ's defense.

Luke 11, 52: "Woe to you lawyers! For you have t6aken away the key of knowledge; you did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering." ... that's just what the Man said (NRSV).

I think Jesus was referring to the Sadducees in that verse. But really I don't think your profession has anything to do with your going to Heaven (unless you are a paid hit man or something to that effect) it has to do with whether you have accepted Jesus as Lord.

mikePaterson, Actually God looks to those who are contrite in heart and spirit. You dont sound very contrite.

without defence attorneys, we would not have any checks and balances in our justice system.

upon them rests the burden of making sure EVERYONE gets a fair trial. making sure that police always follow the rules when they put together a case. making sure that if there are descrepancies in the crowns case, that we know about them, and question them.

its a crappy job, and everyone hates you, but i am thankful that we have them.

Don't worry about Mr. Patterson, he is just trying to get under my skin. It is a nice little misrepresentation of scripture, though. I agree with Serena that the Gospel is NOT talking about "lawyers" in the sense we think of them now, but rather about experts in the Torah (ie. the Jewish "Law", ie. the first five books of the Old Testament), ie. religious leaders.

Far from impeaching me and other members of my profession, this scripture serves to impeach those who would hold themselves out as an expert in scripture and use it inappropriately.

I'm a (civil) defence lawyer. While I've never had any aspirations to do criminal work, either as a Crown or as defence counsel, it would never have occurred to me that this particular career choice could have implications for my eternal soul.

I guess I missed that day in Criminal Procedure class :)

BTW, Jeffrey--the "attorney" thing bugs me, too.

Anyone can go to heaven! People are not saved by their works, but by faith in Jesus Christ. (Romains 2:9-31)

I know several lawyers and whether they do defense work, civil law or are Crown Attorney's is not relevant as long as they practice ethically within their field.

Our criminal justice system does not work without defense counsel. The ones that I know do not struggle representing their clients, they do their job and do it well. It is someone else's job to try to put an alleged offender in jail.

Holden

bb-

if you were accused of a crime you didn't commit, and was defended by alawyer, how would you feel about him/her? if there are prosecutors, there must be defense, true?