Monk, you have missed the point, God does welcome all people, he doesn't welcome behaviour's of people. The Word has told us many sins, we must not condone said sins as the UC is doing.

Banning religion would be tricky: people believe in so many things, from scientism (turning science into a faith) and "market forces", for their salvation that you wouldn't know where to stop. Christians might think it'd be worth a try: like alcohol, Chritianity flourishes when it's outlawed.

As for ORGANISED religion: can anyone think of a case in point?

I think Elton John needs to broaden his experience of organised religion. He is not incorrect, simply not portraying the whole picture.

I agree. On the other hand, the Catholic church in particular just can't seem to stop spreading homophobia. It constantly seems to be at the top of their agenda.

paulivany,

Hi,

You quoted Sir Elton,

"There are so many people I know who are gay and love their religion," John said.
"From my point of view, I would ban religion completely.

That doesn't make any sense to me. First he acknowledges he knows gay people who love their religion so it should be banned? Whose side is he on?

You again quoted Sir Elton,

"It turns people into really hateful lemmings and it's not really compassionate."

Hateful Lemmings? Um Sir Elton. It would appear that the sum total of your knowledge of lemmings is restricted to a bit of fraud perpetrated by the Disney corportation.

I suggest you view the following link before appealing to Lemming imagery in the future:

http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.htm

Then you asked

"What do you think?"

You don't need to belong to anything organized to hate. I think Sir Elton feels strongly about things but is not thinking too clearly about the matter.

John

Yes he obviously has not done a lot of research on organised religion. Just looking at those that make organised religion look bad for the rest of us. A very ignorant form of discrimination, though I can't say I'm completely void of doing such a thing.

But surely no one is denying that the Christian church is guilty of spreading hatred of homosexuals....

Maybe we should see it from his point of view that according to 98 percent of the CHristian church, he is going to hell.

Let's be honest, despite attempts made by liberal Christians, the majority of Christianity is so sure of the sinfulness of homosexuals (as sure as they are that God took over the body and soul of several biblical writers) that they are willing to hate people in Jesus' name.

In which case, I agree with Sir Elton. And I attend church regularly!

I'd have a lot more trust in Sir Johnnie's words if he hadn't written "Candle in the Wind".

Mind you..I do see where he's coming from.

I'd say its a fair tit for tat. Some Christians think it is their role to persecute homosexuals. Why shouldn't gays be a little catty back?

What is funny is that both practicing Christians (especially Evangelicals) and homosexuals are both minorities. You would think that they could work together to promote everyone's human rights, so that we are all free to follow our convictions -- whether it be full submersion, adult baptism or celebrating Stonewall. Funny how some minorities feel that it is important to work against the rights of other minorities.

"that they are willing to hate people in Jesus' name."

Thats only a half truth, or just an ignorant assertion. The Christians I know do not "hate" homosexuals "in Jesus name" thats just a Straw Man fallacy many such as yourself MadMonk like to setup and knock down. Some MAY hate them, but it is not what Jesus taught, so thats on them, not on Christianity. As mentioned MANY times already (and ignored that many times as well), The Bible Teachings clearly to hate the act, not the person. For even when the man that was having sex with his father's wife in the Corinth congregation was expelled, when he repented he was shown massive love. The fact is, as a lover of God, "you must abhor what is wicked." Admittingly

I *hate* Candle in the Wind.

I would forgive the writers if they repented, tho.

I sure can't blame Sir Elton for his feelings - the Christian church has a lot to answer for in regards to its treatment of gay people, and I include the liberal churches for not standing up and screaming more loudly in support of our gay brothers and sisters.

However, it really ticks me off when celebrities take advantage of their celebrity status to sound off, since our current societal "cult of celebrity" gives their words far more credence than they are actually worth.

Tom Cruise springs to mind.....

And I LIKE Candle in the Wind!

*sigh*

In your opinion, you mean.

Nope, not my opinion, you've been posting exactly what I've commented.

"I *hate* Candle in the Wind.

I would forgive the writers if they repented, tho."

Typical.

I cannot STAND that whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" lie. If you believe in sins, as Brenda Cossman recently wrote:

"That's a non-negotiable belief. If you think it's a sin, then you pretty much have to be against it. You are not going to want to have law protecting the sin and [by extension] the sinner. You aren't going to much like the decriminalization of [consensual anal sex] (Canada did that in 1968) nor laws against discriminating against gay men and lesbians (that's been in place since the 1980s), to say nothing of same-sex marriage."

That whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" rhetoric is what has driven supposedly Christian people to create so-called "ex-gay" organizations, to encourage people to try to "change" their sexuality, to cause such self-hatred that people like Ted Haggard are driven to a life of sneaking around buying prostitutes and taking drugs to deal with their feelings, and by extension promoting hatred and killing of, and discrimination against, gays and lesbians, to say nothing of bisexuals and transsexuals.

So are you saying it is not possible to simply hate the sin and not the person that can possibly change?

Yes! Yes! We are all aware of the harm the churches have done in the past history of the church, especially the Catholic church; the Inquisition etc. There is much blood on their hands in the name of Christ. Today most churches refuse to tolerate homosexuality and I agree it is wrong of them to do so.

For all of that I support all of the churches everywhere in the whole wide world. Never has there been a time in history when we need the churches more than we do right now. We need every bit of light and every bit of spirituality from every possible source. Our children and young adults need the church desperately.

Many and most of the churches are involved in supporting wonderful charitable causes. You may not realize it but they are supporting missions to feed the hungry and homeless all over the world. They are supporting pallative care homes for the dying. They are supporting leper colonies and missions to help the blind. They are supporting orphanages. They are bringing clean water pumps to Africa. They are visiting the sick. Most of all the good work being of service to people and helping people world wide is done by organized religions.......believe it or not! Please read your newspapers and watch T.V. You will see it for yourselves.

I know we have new religions now such as New Age. These people are not interested in being of service to the people at large. They are interested in their own soul development basically. They meditate. have spiritual visions, believe in karma (watchful of their own) and reincarnation. They believe each person is responsible for his/her own choices in life which may be true but it does tend to make people sadly lacking in compassion and empathy for others.

Christianity with all its many faults is a religion of LOVE and CARING ABOUT THE OTHER PERSON, OUR NEIGHBORS. There is nothing higher, nothing better than this. Believe me I have looked; I have searched.

It would be a very sad day for all of humanity when we no longer have the churches. Yes! I include the evangelists too who are doing good works and going into people's homes lighting a candle in the dark. They save many suicidal and desperately troubled people.

Christ said : 'I have built my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it'. I believe that ! The Church will be here long after the new age fad and many other fads have passed away. Regardless of our human natures and our human mistakes the Church is built on Jesus who is LOVE. Love never fails.........LOVE RULES !

Amen....and God Bless the United Church of Canada! I hope many people will realize the value of the church in our society and come flocking to your doors.

Love, Light and Peace.

What a weak, weak argument. Why do we need the church? What is the church doing to truly help people in the world that other organizations aren't doing or can't do? How do you explain the fact that the church often requires conversion as a requirement of providing assistance? How do you explain the umpteen scandals churches and church people have been and continue to be involved in?

My dear Stardust, you are wilfully blind if you fail to see the corruption and waste and self-serving attitude of the church today, and its utter, utter failure to be of any relevance to modern people. And you are breathtakingly arrogant to claim that only your religion is a true religion, a benevolent religion.

Sir Elton John said: "Organized religion fuels anti-gay discrimination and should be eliminated"

EZ Answer: Once upon a time, a knight's training included hunting and falconry. Do you know how many squirrels were killed to achieve the title "Sir"?

Sir Elton may be right about so much of religion. But apply his argument to knighthood, and we never would have achieved the first openly-gay knight.

By the way, the United Church ordained the first openly-gay minister years before Sir Elton was knighted.

You ignored my question Blah.

"So are you saying it is not possible to simply hate the sin and not the person that can possibly change?"

Yes. That is what I'm saying.

Let's be specific here. When you say, in regards to homosexuality, "love the sinner, hate the sin," you imply that gay people can--and should-- "change" their sexuality. Every reputable psychological association says that not only can people NOT change their sexualities, but that trying to do so is massively damaging.

At the very least what you do when you spread the poison that homosexuality is sinful is attempt to deny people the only thing that all people really need: intimate human companionship. And for what?

Elton John has nothing to base his opinions except hatred, hatred of Christians and the Word of God. I would be very saddened to hear people agree with him, especially those people who belong to the UC.

If Sir Elton wants to ban organized religion, what's he in favour of - disorganized religion? Not a bad thought, really...

Hey if I was sitting on 40 million dollars, and I had the adoration of fans all over the world, and if I worked hard to raise money and awareness for a disease that is crippling the poorest parts of the world, and killing the most vulnerable among us, who cannot get treatment, and if I have done incredible things in the name of being human and doing what is right,

and suddenly I went to church and some Jesus freak said, "Hate the sin, love the sinner"

I would call for an end to religion too, because if a life time of being a Christian means that you come to the conclusion that God does not welcome certain people, then close the churches now.

Yes, I did say Jesus Freaks.

More and more, the so called UC Christians expose their dislike of Jesus and those that follow Him and the Bible. Its sad to see a church that used to be Christian, stray so far.

I'm actually a follower of Jesus, have committed my life to him in several public worship services, and I am an active participant in a UCC faith community.

Before you start making accusations, get your facts straight. As I've said before, me and Jesus are ok, it's his self-appointed little helpers I have problems with.

As the bumper sticker says: "Jesus, save me from your followers." It's funny because it's true.

I've seen this on a sticker, maybe this is what Elton was getting at:

"Good people can do good and bad people can do evil. But for good people to do evil -- that takes religion"

I too am starting to come to the conclusion that organized religion has caused too much grief, strife, diversity, and disconnection ... maybe an evolution to a more secular world society would help us all in the long run.

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it"
-John Adams

Perhaps one day we'll evolve to a mid-point between close-minded, exclusive and power-seeking religion, and mindless self-gratification, greed and consumerism.

Blah:

I'm a bit late getting around to replying.

Hands in the Air.....Take me Away ! I plead guilty to all I have said.

I agree I am arrogant! However, I didn't mean to imply that my truth is the only truth. We know there is no absolute truth. My truth is the truth for me. Sorry if I didn't express myself properly.

I've never been inside a United Church. What would I know ? God gave me a vision saying it was TOPS and He plans to build many many more and fill them to overflowing.

P.S. I'm lying about the vision...................................................running.........................................to................................................the corner >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Clam and Blah: Those are great bumper stickers!

That bumper sticker that says "In event of rapture, this car will go unmanned."

I think people should lose their lisence for having that one.

madmonk You can love the homosexuals, murderers, liars, thieves, adulterers all you like. It still doesnt guarantee them a place in heaven. You cant push them through the gate of Heaven. Only by believing that Christ died for the remission of sins and be of a contrite heart God will show his grace and mercy. Did not our Lord Jesus say "You cannot enter heaven, unless you are reborn."

Christ holds the keys to heaven and hell.

madmonk Jesus our Lord also said "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle then for a rich man to enter into heaven."

sylviac, will YOU be allowed into heaven, in your humble opinion?

sylviac, will YOU be allowed into heaven, in your humble opinion?

Just thought I'd ask twice in order to give you some time to contact God to ask for a quick answer...

... must be on hold.

What the heck does E J know anyway? He'll say anything to get in the news.
Think about it, it will sell more cds, it works for allmost everyone else.

magda What do you think?

Not with the way you go around spreading hate.

I agree with RevMatt: It's easy to slam something you don't know much or care much about. I'm with Jimmy too. It's probably a publicity ploy.

Elton John's statement is too oversimplified "“ it would appear he's covering all organized religion under the same blanket. And I've heard it all too often. The problem is that people need to make it a priority, get involved and become aware of what good it can offer the world. If an organization we do good work under (the church) takes a particular stand, perhaps we have to make the "stand" less important and get involved with the people under that umbrella - if they allow us to (thus the benefits of becoming an inclusive and affirming church). A church should be about developing a spiritual connection with the world - in my tradition through Jesus and God "“ which only naturally leads to love and service. It shouldn't be about condemnation.

There needs to be change, yes. But I don't agree that organized religion should be banned. It needs to be less driven by single-mindedness and rigidity. I agree with Blah to a point "“ no one in my Christian church is spreading hatred of homosexuals that I know of (again you're covering all Christians with one blanket). Blah, my church doesn't require conversion to offer assistance. Do I have to stop calling myself a Christian so that you won't lump me with all those others? Ditto to MadMonk, and I hope for change. Many years ago I sat on a Pastoral Relations Committee where I was the only person (and there were other women on the committee) who approved of calling a female minister. There are now many women are serving as Ministers in the UC today - the reason why sometimes it's good to take a stand. We have to be patient, not give up.

I agree with Stardust: There is so much good that comes out of people who come together to work for the good of others. I stopped going to church for a while and didn't sense much love around me - until I went back and got involved and connected. I'm very fortunate, I realize. But I think this is why the UC is great, because I've witnessed love in action in the UC. Think of the Beads of Hope campaign. Certainly one can't dispute that it was a good thing. Blah, I could go on and on once I start about all the things I've seen my church and others do to truly help people in the world that other organizations aren't doing or can't do. Many people give their resources to their church because they've developed a sense of trust about how effective their sacrifice will be to a certain cause. Perhaps they wouldn't do this otherwise. What about a mother with young children who feels she's at her wits end. Perhaps the Moms and Tots group at her church offers her some breathing space, a compassionate ear, to help her cope. Sometimes our government offers assistance and programs to help people. Sometimes hospitals and charities do also. It isn't necessary to be a church to help others. But often it's because of churches that these programs get initiated; that an awareness of need arises. Churches are often advocates for the needy and oppressed. Being microcosms of the larger world, they encounter difficulties and have problems and give people reason to criticize them. It makes me think of the saying"¦If you don't try, you'll never know success. Do you believe the issue of same sex marriage would have received as much support if it weren't from some church influence and involvement? I wouldn't have sent a letter to my MP about it if it weren't from what I learned at church. The foodbank I help with doesn't operate from the resources of the government. It must rely on the community. It is now a non-profit corporation but it was initiated by the church.

I don't think ABC likes the UC. "We should not condone said sins as the UC is doing". You're covering with the blanket again and it seems to me that you like to decide what is and isn't sin "“ as though you're the expert. The Bible, as I know it, is a witness of the experience of God by people who lived a long time ago. I've NEVER heard anyone in the UC "expose their dislike of Jesus and those that follow Him and the Bible". It's more likely that they have a problem with those who act like know-it-alls and "are willing to [condemn] people in Jesus' name."

Blah: You said "My dear Stardust, you are wilfully blind if you fail to see the corruption and waste and self-serving attitude of the church today, and its utter, utter failure to be of any relevance to modern people." I must be blind too because this is not what I see in my church. I would assume you are one of the people who "doesn't know much or care much about it" as I've mentioned above.

I agree with Diana although sometimes I think the "cult of celebrity" works for good. Think of LiveAid, Live8 and the We Are the Children campaign years ago.

Clam shared: "Good people can do good and bad people can do evil. But for good people to do evil -- that takes religion." Do people really believe this? So all people who have no religion are the most exemplary humans on the planet? If we took away all religion, there would be no bad deeds done ever again? No one would be greedy or unkind? Wars would end? If I believed this, I'd become an atheist immediately. Who is John Adams, by the way?

Mike: Thank you for clarifying the difference between religion and organized religion. So without religion we don't have beliefs, attitudes, emotions, behaviour, etc., which constitutes our relationship with the powers and principles of the universe. So, essentially, everyone has religion of some sort. With organized religion, we learn a system of religious beliefs from the practices and witness of others. Is it possible to conclude that the UC is a disorganized religion, since our beliefs are all so varied and we attempt to be tolerant of different beliefs?

Sylviac: "You cannot enter heaven, unless you are reborn." Do you believe in metaphorical language? Magda asked you what YOU think. Are you waiting for someone to puts words in your mouth? It doesn't matter to me whether you are going to heaven or not. It should only matter to you.

If you call yourself Christian, you are still part of a tradition that spreads hatred of homosexuals at every turn (among other evils). Why should we ignore all the bad things about the church and its message just because some people get something good out of it? As someone who believes in god, you still promote belief in the implausible, the unproven, the fantastical over the rational, the logical and the factual. And as long as people believe that such kindsof belief are justifiable and desirable, they will still be the root of injustice.

My traditions are part of my culture, part of who I am, my roots. Do you expect me to cast it off completely? Okay, so I stop calling myself Christian, does that change me? It's just language. Am I not still part of that tradition? If I stop celebrating Christmas, can I still share gifts with loved ones and hope for peace in the world? I don't think it's fair for you to imply that because I call myself a Christian, I myself promote hatred. That would be like me saying that all Jews promote war because that's part of the Jewish tradition. That's not true is it? Isn't that called faithism? (It must be a new word. I know I've seen it but I can't find it in the dictionary.) I'm sure it has to do with saying your faith is the only acceptable faith but I'm sure it has to do with stereotyping as well.

I didn't say we should ignore the church's past. I did say I believed it needed to change. Will change happen if everyone who is dissatisfied with it leaves? That would cause it to become stagnant wouldn't it? I realize there are still people who are spreading hatred who call themselves Christians but how do you expect me to stop them from thinking what they think. If I were to become an Atheist would that stop them? Should I engage in war with them? I think the way to evoke change is through education. But first you have to get people to listen, understand, and then accept what they hear. Or experience change. That takes time. I believe traditions can evolve. And Christianity for me is much different than it was for my great-grandmother and even my mother. We invite everyone into our church. Whether people choose to come in and get to know us is another thing.

When I say I believe in God, how do you know what or how I believe? Are you making assumptions? You seem to be saying people should believe only in the logical, factual and rational? How do you know my beliefs aren't based on logical, factual and rational reasoning? I believe in abstract thought. Is that not okay? Do you believe in optimism? Can you say someone who is optimistic is fantastical? Optimism is strongly connected to hope, which is a strong part of Christianity. Do you believe in love? Is it logical, factual or rational? I understand the barriers of language and lack of knowledge in the church. I believe Jesus was a man, not a God. I don't believe he was born to a virgin. He had a "relationship" with God just as much as you and I could. He was a cosmic mystic who embraced the mysteries of the universe. For me, his resurrection is spiritual. You can say that's abstract but not irrational. To say he lives means to me that he is still part of our lives today via his story and the witness of the people who share his story. I don't think we are born with sin and I don't think the essence of God can be defined. I don't believe heaven is in the clouds or that hell is a burning hot place in the centre of the earth.

This is just a part of what I believe. And I don't claim to know it all either. To be truthful, if I didn't find Christianity to be rational and logical, I would have a problem with it. Learning about the facts of history helps me put it into perspective differently than others. I know that many other Christians would say I'm not a Christian, based on how they define Christianity. To say that my beliefs are the root of injustice sounds very much like condemnation and reminds me of others who imply that they are experts on how people think and should think.

How do you define Christianity? To me, it's about embracing the teachings of Jesus. How those lessons are interpreted is what causes hatred, not the teachings themselves. People are finding that the lessons Jesus taught can be embraced in many faiths and by people without faith. For me, I embrace Christianity, a part of my culture, to promote the message of love, hope and justice, something contained in many faiths. Is a belief in these things unjustifiable and undesirable? For you to say they are the root of injustice just doesn't make sense to me. I'm baffled. I don't see this as promoting hatred, nor do I think of it as illogical or irrational and not everything in life is about facts. Do you think it's okay to hate Christians but not homosexuals?

Again, how do you define Christianity?

Russel's Teapot.

Huh?

blah how about this passage "Oh foolish Galatians who hath bewitched you that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath beeb evidently set forth crucified among you. This would I learn of you. Received ye the spirit by the works of the law or by hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish having begun in the spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh?" Galatians 3 1-3

So you see heresies were already starting in the early church. And again in Galatians 5 verse "Ye did run well, who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?"

Look it up.

blah why do you hate me so much, you dont even know me