The problem is that advertising folks seem to zero on a "type" or a "look" and push that as the standard. Variety works against that by saying there is no "type" or "look" but rather a variety of ways that someone can be attractive. I'm not sure that the hype machine has the imagination to handle changing the paradigm of trying to tell people what the "look" is that they should be following. Yes, moving away from universally skinny, quasi-anorexic models is a good thing but to then just replace with another "type" or "look", whether it's plus sized or something else, just changes the details, not the whole paradigm.

To really make the system promote healthier approaches to how people look (and men do get sucked into this system, too), we need to get away from trying to promote a "look" and instead concentrate on helping people look and feel good whatever their "type" is. In my real life, I know many attractive women and none of them looks like a supermodel or even like each other. Each has their own look and is attractive in their own right, not because they fit a "look" defined by the fashion industry. How to Look Good Naked seemed to be moving things this way though I didn't see enough of it to be sure.

Mendalla

Crystal Renn:

Whitney Thompson:

Kate DIllon:

I hope that the "plus" size name will fade, or move up some notches. I think a regular model goes up to 14 or 16 myself.

Marquita Pring:

Candice Huffine and Michelle Olsen:

Not sure about the skintone colour of this bader, I think brown or red would be better...

What's "How to look good naked"? A tv show?

I see your point. The fashion industry would have nothing to work with. It seems the Dove advertizing plan they did with the natural beauty thing was good. Lots of different women of different ages and races looking clean and nice. There's always gonna be people making clothes though, not sure how they can devise a new way of tackling things. Maybe like music, different b(r)ands for different types or interests...? We can't do away with the fashion industry all together.

Perhaps in communist regimes, fashion is regulated in a less capitalist way, but that seems sad too. You'd be wearing the regulation clothes or something...

In the past, a fuller look was the thing, til Twiggy came along. It seems that in the 60's both ran paralell for a while... Anybody remember that?

I agree about the skinny.  Some women do NOT starve themselves, they just have a fast metabolism and small bones.  It must be so tiresome for them having people push food at them all the time.  I know some naturally small women who eat like a  HORSE.

And if a celeb drops a few pounds from say, stress,or an thyroid issue that needs working out,  Good grief!  They're an addict, going to rehab, anorexic, collapsed, rushed to hospital, risking their life to be thin etc.

I've never understood what problem there could be in showing a mix of sizes in the ads.  The blue pants and top in size 8, the brown version in size 12, the green in size 16.  Anyone with eyes can tell that humans come in a range of normal sizes so let us see that!

Yep. A very eccentric fashionista working with women on how to look their best and showing them how they were beautiful even if they didn't meet the standards of the media and fashion machines. Fashion designed to boost self-image rather than boost a media-created image. Again, that was my impression based on seeing bits and pieces.

I think the fashion industry needs to be there, but their role should be to work with what each woman has to offer, not try to sell/enforce an ideal that they created in the first place. That seems to be happening somewhat, but there's still a lot of "we know what you want" going on rather than "what do you want?"

And we don't want regulation clothes. My wife's homeland went there and it wasn't pretty...

Mendalla

The celebrity culture is another problem, of course. Who the f**k cares if Scarlett lost a few pounds or Kristen put on a few or whatever. Or, for that matter, who they are sleeping with, why they ate at such-and-such restaurant, or what they eat for breakfast. Too much attention on the celebs and not enough on ourselves. I don't look like George Clooney and don't care. I'm me and want to be loved for being me.

Mendalla

Yeah.

At a family barbeque a couple years ago, I happened to exclaim, "I'm stuffed!" to the cook, and she, a large lady, said harshly to me, "Well that's a good feeling isn't it!" then looked briskly away. Well, I may appear thin to some, but I'm not as skinny as I used to be. And I don't starve myself!

Reubens women were on the chunkier side and considered beautiful in his time.

Women need to be appreciated more for their personality - we are such a diverse society.  I agree - have models of all shapes and sizes.

Mendalla (posting at the same time),

Sounds like a good show. I also had the thunk, that at fashion shows it's probly simplest to have all the clothes the same size, otherwise they'd have to have the outfits specially ordered for each girl, and arranged separately by name, which might make things more confusing than they already are backstage.

The thing about the fashion industry is that people DO want to be told what they want. People are afraid to venture out on their own clothes-wise, and have remarkably few ideas of their own. It's quite dissapointing. But I hope it does move into a more varied presentation of what's available out there. I think there is room for all.

LOL, Yeah I bet the regulation clothes weren't pretty! We need a slightly different system though.

Gecko, Yes, looking at paintings from the past, we get different ideas of ideal beauty. LIke when I look at portrayals of Eve, the medieval ones with their big pregnant-like bellies, and others from later, it's interesting. Of cource, we want to be thought beautiful, at the same time as appreciated for our personality ; )  I like how in centuries past, makeup wasn't essential. Hoorah for blonde eyelashes!

I guess I'm still a bit of an unfashionable outsider, then. Never consult fashion mags, just buy what makes me comfortable with a bit of input from my wife on whether it looks good on me. And she generally shops based on value and does just fine finding stuff that looks good on her. Never cracked a Chatelaine or Cosmo in her life. The Economist is more her speed.

Mendalla

I know, when I figured this out, it was a dissapointment to me, and it doesn't apply to everyone. Some people are free from these limitations. And I think that men are generally more open minded buying what they like. I get what you mean Mendalla, I don't just mean checking the fashion mags though, but watching what other people are wearing.  People do want to fit in, unless they are hippies or goths, but even they of cource, have their general clothing do's and don'ts. It takes guts to be brave and break the norm.

Good topic.

I am concerned for my daughters for a variety of reasons.  Mostly, I am worried that they won't eat nutritionally and then they crave foods that are not great for them like sugars, chips et al..  My family perpetuates this with their contention that food is food and liberalist ideology when it comes to food.

But we all know that all food is not equal and quite frankly, I have signed my children away from my family in my Will because of their attitudes towards food.  I feel they eat cancerous diets not rich in dark green vegetables, nuts and a variety of  holistic and organic foods and I know their diet is dangerous to my kids.  I suffered migraines, hypertension, panic attacks, hypoglycemia from a diet high in sugars and complex carbs while living at home.  I also gained an eating disorder from food compulsion to food withdrawl - following my role models who were binge/dieting.

I have had a lot of dialogue, conversation, tyrannical discipline and the whole gambit when it comes to nutrition with my kids.   Improper nutrution also contributed to my psychotic breakdown in the late 80s early 90s.  So, having a family who still plays games with nutrition and my kids is very scary.

My kids put on weight easily.  Part of this is their ennui, part of it is their love of food that isn't good for them.  They like friends who have easy access to food/narcotic that isn't healthy.  They are not necessarily ill behaved around that, but it is the condition that I find scary, like they are baby alcoholics but with food and I we all know how that transfers down the line.

I don't like the extra weight on my girls.  It slows them down and I hate having to find clothes that work for them.  They aren't very heavy, but they have rolls on their tummies and it is a new thing that occured for them in the last year and a half, since I had to become more involved in my own life and not planning their days for them.

 If we overmanage our kids we can tyrannically advise their eating behaviors; however, food management is going to have to be an adult behavior.  I do worry that it is an obsession for them.  They read cookbooks now that I don't bake as much, or allow them to bake and have reduced the amount of sugar in our house.  They are craving and addicted.  It's hard to stick it out.

I have to say that I have never paid much attention to fashion. I never look at fashion magazines, nor do I spend much time watching fashion shows on TV. I couldn't care less about what's in style. I purchase clothing that I find comfortable and that I think look good on me. Often I find things at thrift stores. I am fortunate in that I don't have to get dressed up very often - jeans and sweaters are totally acceptable where I work (as are shorts and t-shirts in the summer).

 I don't look like George Clooney and don't care. 

****

Honey, NOBODY looks like George Clooney.  

jlin,

I think I have a food addiction.  I experienced many of the same behaviours in the household--both sets of parents (divorced remarried)- as you describe. A lot of it, I think, stemmed from  parents working, and not enough time to plan and cook healthy meals...so there were frozen pizzas, etc. in the freezer. Processed convenience foods. Not that my mom didn't try when she had time. She's a good cook and aware of good nutrition. My step mother as well. My dad only knows how to make pancakes and BBQ meat. My step dad doesn't cook...well that's not entirely true...my "dads" do help in the kitchen, but under instruction. They're not enthusiastic cooks, and they're from a generation that didn't raise boys to cook.. Point being, because of more women working full time, and not that that's a bad thing (I am not against that in any way), many do not have time or energy to put into cooking healthy meals for a family. That may be a poor excuse, because it doesn't take much to cut up an apple, make a salad, or to teach your kids to do so!...so convenience foods have become the easy way out.

And although I've never been "obese", I do struggle with the  extra pounds, as does most of my family. I'm always slightly overweight, or when I'm not, I'm on the cusp. It doesn't take much. A week of over-indulging at Christmas, and it's a real battle to get the wieght off. I don't eat a lot  quantity wise over the course of a day, but I think I am addicted to fats and sugars too...and I don't think I will ever be able to give up cheese! I try to balance it out, however, with healthy options. It gets hardwired int othe brain. So, I'm not sure it's a good idea to promote overweight models. Nor underweight ones. Healthy body weight and nutrition should definately be promoted.

I watched David Suzuki the other night talking about, in addition to our addiction to junk food, pesticides have been linked to a growth in fat cells. Before puberty, that process can be stopped by eliminating the chemicals that cause it. After puberty, it's too late. So many people have no choice but to be on strict diets..

"bias against skinny women?!"

*giggle*

AWE SOME :3

i remember a garfield slogan "thin may be in, but fat is where its at!"

can't wait for further biases:

against carbon-based Canadians

pro ferro-Canadians (ie robots)

against carbon-based Terrans

against multicellular life

against temporally-fixed consentients of universe-node 23

Jlin,

Sounds like you think about food alot in your house. And that thinking about it makes it a problem. I understand that, because when I was 17, my boyfriend used to make fun of my "beer belly", which was just an under exersized abdomen. I wore size 28 jeans. He dumped me, so I got into doing 50 situps a night, then began to think food was an addiction, and tried to go cold turkey on it. I became a size 6. My grad dress was quite tiny. No one said anything though, and it didn't last long. By 19 I had a much healthier attitude, which I took from my Mom, who always cooked healthy, balanced meals, and I was proud of my new "woman" hips, and moved into size 32 jeans.

So I think it's a good idea not to make too much a deal of food, but just to set a good example about it. I wouldn't recommend critisizing your daughters about their rolls. They'll be their own critics I would think.

Further thoughts: I got into modeling when I was 19, and took some shots to show my "agent" (company I paid for the cource), and they said I would have to loose weight, or that I could be a plus size model. That was a pile of shit, because I was a skinny girl, it really pissed me off, and that was the end of modeling for me. In this one picture, the photographer had suggested I lean my head against the wall, and this created a shadow under my chin, it was a bad idea on the photographer's part, and then to print it was a mistake. It was otherwise a nice shot. I didn't fit a proper size 8 though, I was 8 bust, 10 hips, so had to buy my dress suit in two sizes.

Somegal,

Totaly valid point of view, and lifestyle. I don't buy fashion mags, but I like to flip through them in the drug store. I like clothes, makeup and fashion photography as an art form, but I'm not a follower. I try to set trends instead, but I'm not as brave as I'd like to be! It's easier in the city to be radical! As a young person though I loved striped and patterned socks, 70's clothes, paisleys, miniskirts, folk dress... Now, unfortunately, I have to look like a mom. ; )

Mendalla, For the record, I like you very well, even if you do look like a big scarey alien ape! Anyway, other women may like George Clooney. I think he's so-so, nothing to write home about. Kinda regular and boring really.

Kimmio,

Wow that sucks about the pesticides and fat cell growth. I hadn't heard that before. Good point about the overweight models. I think the curvy hips and bust is great, like the Chrystal Ren picture, very Marylin Monroe, but the tummy ones, I would agree. However, I think 14's and 16's look great in fitted clothes. My best friend growing up was obesce, so I recognize what you're saying there. She has had a lifelong problem thinking about food. I have never known how much of it was thinking and how much biology. She had a skinny brother. Needless to say, I got some hostile vibes off her from time to time. "Well, everything looks good on You!" She was not a happy punter at my one and only fashion show. Anyway, I love cheese too, could never give it up. I'd eat more of it if it weren't so darn pricey!

Did you happen to catch Zoomer magazine this month?  Jann Arden is turning 50 - so she's featured ... photos by rocker Bryan Adams ... who persuaded her to do a tasteful nudie ...

i've seen Zoomer magazine at a doctor's office and i really like it -- the issue had some elegant dress ups of some famous peeps -- people like Judy Dench & Christopher Lee...like I kept on saying during my HCSW training, "old people are sexy" :3

No, I haven't seen that mag.

I happen to think that the "plus sized" women show above are very beautiful, much more so than the "skinny Minnies" you so often see.

I'd like to see the fashion focus more on the fashion and less on the models.  Then I think we could honestly get models of all varieties.  Even when models are promoted as 'diverse' there's still a large bias.  I see this with Tyra, but that's because I've caught a decent number of ANTM and CNTM.  There was a photo shoot including 'all different shades' which consisted only of models who were at least partly black (I say black as I'm not sure if they all had some African heritage).  Not a single 'white' 'brown' etc girl.  She refers to the plus sized model as fiercely real.  Does that mean that skinny girls are not real, or not fierce?  Then there was the season of short girls.  By short she meant a cutoff of 5"7.  I think the shortest of the women in that episode were 5"2.  Not a single little person.  They were also wearing ridiculously high heels (moreso than other episodes were the girls were all at least 5"7) and the shorter girls were cut early on.  I'm pretty sure the finalists were all 5"5 or taller (and the final 2 probably were 5"7).

Instead of having women of colour, short models, fiercely real/plus sized models, why can't we just have models?

Chemgal,

I agree with you about focusing more on fashion rather than on models.  Fashion is no longer an art form it is only about corporation and that is the real inhibitor when it comes to health and fashion.

If it isn't adressing a real issue of the planet of society but lives instead in the robotic means of a corporation, how can it be healthy?

Hi Jon! Yes, they are, and thanks for saying.

Chemgal, yeah, it would be nice. And I'd like to know more about the personalities of the models too, to make them less "hangers" and more something. I didn't wanna be a hanger. Naomi Campbell is really into her African heritage, and flaunts it in public. I like that about her, and how she goes without makeup, with her natural black, big lipped face. I've never watched either of those shows (no reception), but I used to like to watch Fashion Television with Jeanie Bekker.

I haven't kept an eye on fashion for a long time, I mean buying mags and watching FT, so that's sad to hear Jlin. How is it corporized more now than it was in the 90's? Aren't the designers creating from the heart any more? And the photographers getting artful angles? One of my favorite designers was Betsy Johnson : )  She was healthy for me.

jlin    I wonder how old your daughters are?  The preteen hormonal years are difficult ones for many girls and the advent of puberty can cause some weight gain.

For us, I tried to not focus too much on food.  Make homemade food to keep control of the sodium and fat and I seldom buy chips, ice cream, candy , cookies.......  Right now I have chips in the house for my son but it's rare.

when my daughter was about 13 she gained a bit of weight.  She was really active, danced 5 days a week, swim team, ski team.  She just gained weight, perhaps was up 10 pounds,  I expect partly from puberty and partly from being at school and able to eat snacks more easily.

She asked for help and we did a morning boot camp together before school to get us both on track.

As to fashion.

I look at the magazines when I am near them.  I don't buy them as actually I find all magazines much too expensive.

i think there is a BMI regulation in the fashion industry, the catwalk models at least.  I seem to remember a model dying and it was caused by her purging/weight/electrolyte inbalance.

i agree that the fashion industry doesn't reflect society and that women's magazines cause great harm to women who try to copy them.

the flip side though is that we are too heavy in general.  there are too many of us, myself included who are carrying 10 - 20 pounds too much.  It's bad for our heart, our legs, our future diabetes.

So while i commend the idea of "all sizes are good sizes"  there are limits to that. My fear is that the 5'5" women who should perhaps weigh for her build about 120 is content with being 150. 

And while it is politically correct to encourage exercising and not dieting it isn't totally realistic for everyone.

i look at my 24 year old son who has just started work.  Prior to work, when he was job searching he worked out at a thai gym 3 times a week.  With the change and being beat...... he is lucky to get there once.  Granted he walks 15 mintues to the street car but it's not quite the same.

i look at my husband who is fit.  Has weighed the same 165 since high school.  He works from am- 730ishpm daily and does at least an hour of emails at home after dinner.  He works on Sunday afternoons too.  He loves going to the gym and at his previous job it was fairly easy to get to one by walking so he went 3 times a week at lunch.

now he has to drive to it and is lucky to fit in one after work session at 7 pm a week.

While it sounds good, it isn't as easy as it is presented.

how was it for you?  was it horrifying at all, to go from essentially the same as your fellow children and then to have your body mutate and bleed?

Are you trying to be offensive ?

I don't' know about you, gender less as you are on this site, but my body did not mutate.

Puberty, male or female is a difficult time for many kids and confusing probably for most.

But in no way did i ever think of it as a mutation.

You are bizarre

Lastpointe, That was an intelligent, helpful post, the long one. Thanks for that. I miss hiking. Used to walk a lot. Now my son doesn't like hiking, so we don't go out very often, unless he's at school.  But I used to have mighty, endurance thighs, and could hike 17 miles in a day. It works for us if our son can bring his bike, but that doesn't work very well on bumpy forest trails, and boy, how he moans on uphill stretches! I look forard to donning the backpack again in my 50's.

Fashion mags, I think it's a good plan not to try to copy them. And I wish they didn't inundate the checkouts with chocolate bars and weekly entertainment magazines. I don't necesarily want to know about Brad and Angelina's sorted affairs. When I see her face, I'm reminded of the movie Girl Interupted, where she plays a scarey sociopath...

sorry lastpointe :3

on to the topic, here are some plus sized men who are grooving it

Wow, that man has like...No Neck!

here's another that made me laugh

(with the Augmented Reality glasses/contacts mentioned, imagine, you can always look your best, or if you want to have an ostritch head, or an applebottom, or flash constantly in neon colours...i can't wait)

Many so called "plus sized" models are actually of  healthy weight. Kate Winslett, for example, was once a plus sized model.

Much is made of Jennifer Lopez's curves.  She looks like a normal, healthy woman to me.

VERY good point Paradox3. A lot of the women referred to as "plus size" as no more than the national average in size, if that.

Google is working on Augmented Reality Glasses

I can imagine once the technology gets better 'real time' and more integrated changes to the visual field can be made--walking in downtown Vancouver during a dreary day? Make it sunny. Don't like the skyline blocking the mountains? Get rid of the buildings and the software will 'write in' the mountain view. Want to see everyone as anorexic versions of themselves? (imagine the new forms of offense people may take and news stories "My husband liked imaging me fat!" *rolls eyes*)

Or, one doesn't even need glasses to augment reality.  Check this one out, where a guy makes himself invisible to a film student