murdering people=bad

I do agree that some of the traps are unfair and practically inescapable, therefore resulting into murder which is bad. 

But still that does not mean that Jigsaw is a bad guy per say. 

Why not? He is the one putting people in the traps that end up killing them. For what purpose?, to teach them a lesson? A lesson can only be learned by living people.

I like the dude we need one in every town .......

When I heard of the Saw movies, I didn't know what to think...I watched the first one and I was surprised at what a great storyline it was...yes, extremly graphic...not for everyone...I have seen them all. I wouldn't go to the show to see the new one, it but I like the mind thriller type of movie so I enjoyed them...I have later heard they call them some kind of torture porn?? I never thought of it in that way, I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.

Good intentions (to teach people to appreciate life), very machiavellian way of going about teaching them to value it...

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

It's possible to have good intentions and still be evil. That's how a lot of evil begins, maybe even most of it.

indeed.  anakin skywalker/ darth vader is the classic example of that truth.

as far as the saw franchise goes, i would suggest that it is like every other franchise in the slasher genre... a great idea, a great first movie, but very lacking in the sequels, to the point where it degenerates to just a blood bath with no rhyme or reason to it.

I did really like the 1st and 3rd installments. The rest was a little too much blood and strange characters. But hey, it's labeled horror right? Hollywood has to add the extra flavor to the plot line (which is not necessarily always the best thing to do).

Thanks for the comments!

what made the third installment memorable for you, aresthena??

to the point where it degenerates to just a blood bath with no rhyme or reason to it.

That's why it's called a "slasher flick"  if you want something more meaningfull try the Notebook or Nick and Noras infinite playlist ...

I love the psychology behind the movies. If you look past your own moral stance - yes murder is wrong - and the blood and gore - yes it's disgusting - you can see that there are definately valuable messages passed on through these movies. You just have to let yourself consider the darker side of humanity, try to see the world from a different perspective. People do amazing things, both good and bad, when put in extraordinary cicumstances. And people every day take their life for granted - we smoke, we eat bad food, we obsess over the wrong things, we forget what's important, we strive to stay young rather than appreciate living a long life and the wisdom and experiences that come with it... the list goes on. SAW series opens your eyes to that in a very dramatic and overstated way. If we all knew someone could be watching us every minute of every day analyzing the ways we take life for granted, would we still be so ignorant? It's a brilliant plot.

And let's not forget it's just a movie. In real life, this would be wrong and disgusting and I wouldn't condone anyone to do the things depicted. But through film, it is a safe way to face a side of humans that would be atrocious to face in reality. It's like faking a forbidden experiment in a safe and controlled environment - acceptable as long as it isn't real. Let your imagination guide you to deeper understandings of the human mind, including its' darkest corners.

Sighsnootles, I really liked the 3rd movie mainly because of the whole "forgiveness" idea that was present within the "game".  The man was basically leading a self-destructive life, wasn't looking after his daughter's best interests, to say, and let his son's death ruin him completely. That is not to say that you can blame a man for grieving his child's death, but I did like the way Jigsaw let him realize all that through making vital choices about the people he despised the most.

I agree with what you are saying footprints165. Being human, we should be able to learn both through the good and bad we do, because this is basically what we are. We are always in between, always choosing which side we should act upon. And sometimes the bad is not as wrong as people say it is. It all matters whether you choose to grow from the experience or not. 

 I can't believe you are willing to look past the depravity of the Saw movies to try and see some sort of moral value. Twisted and sick movies like this are designed to confuse you and soften up your very sense of morality. It's a highly manipulative and clever technique to infuse some sense of righteousness inside pure evil. See it for what it is.

Looks like narrow is right. More like narrow minded.

As a human being, it is my right to look past depravity in order to find some sort of righteousness. My morality is flexible, therefore I can see through what normally appears to be true.

Narrowgate, just because you have been taught that something evil will always remain evil, does not mean it is true. Besides, your views of evil are just as narrow. Black and white. For people like you, there is no grey. There is no in between. It's either right or wrong.

Too bad you cannot see beyond that deception.

narrow is still convinced that harry potter is the height of evil as well...

 Yeah, it is black or white, there is no grey. So Dexter's a good guy cause he murders bad guys? Right....I get it now...makes a lotta sense.

Why do you insist on discarding the very thing that makes you human? Animals see in black and white (figuratively and literally), and you should very well know not to think like them. You are not an evolved ape, but you take the fact that you are a human being for granted.

And you also insist on making things seem simple when they really are not. No, Dexter is not a good guy, but he is not a bad one either. The moment you start seeing things as a human, the moment you disregard this simplicity is when you will actually start being.

If you truly believe that life is nothing but black and white, you are no better than a primate at the local zoo. Only you have the key to your own cage. 

whoa... very well said. 

mind if i borrow that sometime??

Oh, thank you Sighs

You can borrow that anytime you like. 

thanks!!

No, thank You!  

I'm sorry but i think on a certain level things are simple i don't know about the grey areas do you really think people like Hitler and countless others like him could have stopped if they wanted to ? don't you think that some people enjoy being evil and derive some pleasure from it please people Dexter is a tv show in real life serial killers don't just do bad guys they kill and get pleasure from people's pain they love watching people die do you think once you cross that line you ever come back from it ... that kind of thinking leads people to believe that the can REASON with someone like that and i don't think you can there is no inbetweet no matter how much you wish it so and like it or not we are animals there is very little hold us together but the day things go to shit people will become the very animals they pretend that they are not it's not narrowminded but biology ask anyone you can't fight nature

if no one could make you do something evil because it is your nature to be good do you really think you can make someone do good because it is their nature to be evil ?

All I know is that we humans are certainly not perfect. Yes, good people do bad things sometimes and maybe even vice-versa.

But we humans are flawed. The Bible says we are sinners. We will always fall short of the glory of God. 

I think we can live humbly by admitting to God when we do bad things and asking Him to forgive us. 

You know, "human beings" may as well be an illusion. Most of us act like evolved apes anyway - drugs, sex, violence. No real thoughts whatsoever.

At this point, I doubt God's forgiveness would change the way we are. God's forgiveness cannot erase centuries of lies, deceit and war.

Yes, we humans are flawed. There is nothing we can do about it. Just like antelope we jump into the river, knowing that the alligators lie and wait for us in order to make us their daily meal. Once raised as animals, we remain as animals.

But instead of using our minds as well as our brains, we sit, and watch and pray for some divine intervention. 

How about we let God be the judge of that.

cf, i think that there is a difference here...

i'm not a believer in 'forgive and forget'... i think that you have to learn from your mistakes.

This has become quite the philosophical debate! 

Narrowgate, I recently watched an episode of House that absolutely touches this grey area you don't think exists. Case in point: Dr Chase kills a nation leader that was going to commit genocide. Was the murder acceptable? Or would Chase been better off letting the leader live and allow genocide to happen?

True morality has to be flexible, because at some point ,there is always an exception the rule. If you can convince yourself that morality must be absolute, you have lost much of what life has to offer in self-exploration and personal growth. Allowing yourself to dig deeper into your soul, explore the shadows and face the demons within will probably bring you closer to God than you can imagine - he gave us self-awareness and free will to let us explore ourselves and question our limits because in doing so we discover His Love even more.

I can watch the Saw series and see the twisted briliance of this confused and sadistic character because in the end, Jigsaw believes he is doing right by humanity. Is what he does acceptable? No. But when you open your heart to what lies beneath the cruelty and the evil, you open your heart to love and acceptance that is parallel to what God must feel for ALL His children. God is not an absolute dictator of right and wrong - that's too human. You want to know God, you have to try and understand evil.

I could not have said it better myself - good job footprints

wow... what an interesting statement.  that is going to be a ongoing thought for me, i can tell....

All these different ways I can view the Saw series.  Just a touch of some of them:

The Gamer View

I used to play Dungeons and Dragons and such games.  During the beginning, the types of games that were popular pitted the players against the DM.  One popular subset of that type of game was the Death Trap or Puzzle Room, where your character was trapped in a room and they had to figure out how to get out, usually with some kind of time period involved.  So it becomes an intellectual exercise.

The Canadian View

Lionsgate films is CANADIAN! WOO! Everything they make is Canadian and, therefore, Good.

The Director's View

The director's job is to make a movie for public consumption (within this view there are several others as well:  the Director-as-Artist View, the Director-as-Pawn-of-the-Producers View, the Director-as-Creator View).  Thus, she cannot create a movie that is TOO out there, because then it wouldn't make money.

The Meta View

Jigsaw is laughing at us, the audience, because we need this level of extreme violence to feel or have our imaginations jump started (being 'scared').

The Infectious View

Activist Carolyn Casey says that we need to take Iodine, otherwise, we will take in Radioactive Iodine and get sick.  Now, apply this to ideas.

The Serial Killer View I

Jigsaw is a serial killer.  Being a serial killer is very cool because hey, they break ultimate moral boundaries.

The Serial Killer View II

In real life, serial killers are quite dull and boring.  The ones who are really intelligent, what do they think of doing with their intelligence?

The Cinematic View

Everything in the movie is designed to evoke feelings.  The actors and actresses aren't really feeling the way their characters are.  The violence isn't like real life violence.  Just imagine how different the movie would be if, still using the same visuals and basic plot, the characters were, instead, living in a world where inside beauty was as cherished as outside beauty.

The Immune System View

Our immune systems are amazing.  They learn and have memory.  They don't thrive in a sterile environment.  Thus, no dirt is the absolute worst thing one can do; a little dirt is better.

Just a Self-writing poem,
Inannawhimsey

Niiice views IW.