I wonder, too.

Last night, I saw a mother talking about her son who died in Afghanistan.

She said, "He was such peaceful person. He died fighting for what he believed in."

It's an oxymoron, but one I think I understand.

what happened to "thou shalt not kill" there isn't an exclusion that I'm aware of that says except when in the name of God or oil is there???

There is no exclusion for that. Which is interesting, because the bible is full of wars and killing and death - So I don't think the answer is that simple. Can you kill in self defense for example - still murder. Can you kill to save another's life? can you kill to save 1000 other lives.

Anyway, to the question at hand. I have a big problem with this question because on one hand we must, as christians, participate in the world and stand up to evil, and sometimes that means getting messy. But we also need to be aware that our 'neighbour ' does not just apply to the person living next to us and that we are called to "live in right relationship" (to use an over churchy term) with everyone.

Hitler for example, could we just let him walk all over Europe saying "we know it is bad, but we can't fight you, it is against our religion?" I don't think we can draw the line at violent conflicts and say we won't participate. Rather we need to push as hard as we can to find other solutions to the problems, but when it comes right down to it, when there are no other options - like *really* none - then we need to be there.

I don't like it, but is there another way?

I do not believe that violence is the ansrew to any problem.We feel the sadness in respect to the death of a cdn soldier. What about the death of 80,000 people in agfanistan. These people would have been alive ,living, having famillies, loving each other etc.But violence occured and they are dead.Who is right who is wrong? I dont know. To the victim it doesnt matter.
You indicate we are doing the right thing in Agfanistan.Are we ?What do we really know about that counry, its history, culture, and needs.We are rich and they have nothing. We tell them they must have a society like ours with our values and they must have it now or else.
The use of violence is often advocated by those in power in order to solve a problem. Off course , the opponent is always weak and cant really fight back.
Often hatred, and anger is generated. News is manipulated, distorted or incomplete. It is always necessary to ensure that your own people are on side with the use of violence. Its controlled. There is little communication with the opponent ,his needs, wants, fears etc.
In my opinion jesus gives us another option.we need to discuss ,talk, commuciate, recognize each others fears and needs, We must do this not once but if need be 7 times 7. Violence, iam sorry, is not on the table.

Hi!

Well, for starters, the concept of 'conspiracy theory' is null and void. we do indeed have a conspiracy on our hands. so, when you think 'Al-Quaeda' make sure you also think C-I-A. so, the war you are fighting in Afghanistan is a war that you cannot win, the USSR learned this the hard way, you cannot beat a people in their own environment ESPECIALLY ONE IN WICH YOU ARE UNFAMILIAR WITH. same goes for Iraq, these are conflicts that will result in a loss, just like Vietnam. yes, we are in VietNOW! Power to the people not to governments that want to enslave the people with their 'democracy'.

war - what is it good for? absolutely nothing! say it again...

and speaking of WAR, the state of Israel needs to be dismantled to end the terrorism in Palestine. there is no 'holy war'. all of this is in an effort to install their 'new world order' of slavery for your children, otherwise known as the 'new initiative' for political-media propaganda purposes. and it all starts with and emergency called 9-11. however, TREASON is viewed as the most serious of crimes in the United States.

Is there such a thing as a Just War?
Emphatically NO!

We all know Bush lies, what makes you think he's Christian? If he were Christian would he be just? He's lied about EVERYTHING, why should you believe him when he says he is Christian? what Christian behaves this way? Hugo was right... as far as Bush's behavior, it is indeed DEVILish!

Muslims, Christians and Jews alike lived peacefully in Palestine for centuries before the creation of 'Israel' 1948. Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism. All religions stem from the same root, there is nothing to fight over. Fear is a major factor in peoples reasoning today.

Be fearless.

Peace.
OneLove.

Jesus said...

(Mt 5:43-44) 43 "YOU heard that it was said, "˜You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU;

i for one, would rather be killed, then kill someone...
its not my place to take the life god chose to give to someone...
god is the only one who can choose to give or take away life...

if im confronted by death, i have the same faith that martha, Laz"²a·rus's sister had...

(Joh 11:24-25) 24 Martha said to him[Jesus]: "I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day." . . .

Jesus resurrected lazarus from the dead as an example of what he is going to do earth-wide in the 'recreation of things'

i pray that when i die, i do it because of bearing testimony to Christ and god, theres no better reason to die. many christians have been neutral in political warfare, and been sent to concentration camps, shot by firing squads, spend decades in solitary confinement, and never gave in..theyd rather die for their belief then take anothers life. they have such strong faith that god will remember and resurrect them, that they will go against ALL carnal knowledge and wisdom and live by gods laws to DEATH.

imagine what a world we'd have if EVERYONE had that resolve? guess we wouldnt have any wars to worry about then :-)

so if were dying for christ, 'to die is to gain' and the jesus said..

(Mt 16:25) 25 For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.

so are we gona trust our savior or get mixed up in the futility of this world?

some ppl think this war in iraq is worth dying for or else they wouldnt be there killing people, and yet they will make fun of christians who think NOT killing their neighbour [who perhaps have the same belief, but HAPPENED to be born in a diff country] is worth sacraficing their life for.

well then they may as well make fun of jesus

(Joh 15:13) 13 No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends.

he died for us, he didnt kill for us, he didnt fight with the governments of his day to set his people free..he has a superior way..and soon the whole world will be blessed by his coming kingdom, those asleep in death, and those alive at the time.

Yes we have to be aware of the devastation that war brings - and when we're remembering our Canadian soldiers we also need to remember those innocent victims of war and even the not so innocent victims of war.

There was a time in my life when I thought that no war was justified, but then as i grew a little older it seemed that that was not realistic.

For example, i did support and do support the current military campaign in Afghanistan, but i did not support the campaign in iraq. I'm not sure if all foreign troops left Iraq at the moment whether that would be a good thing.

My hope is that we can always have dialogue, but I also believe that that is not always possible.

Martin Luther King said something like this 'when your enemy is rational, behave like Ghandi. When your enemy is not rational behave like Bonhoeffer.

dietrich Bonhoeffer was a pacifist German pastor in Germany prior to the second world war, who eventually became part of a plot to assassinate Hitler.

My viewpoint is similar to Shawn's.

I think it is a sad reality that we sometimes must take up the sword to confront evil in the world. It is a terrible burden, especially if you do not wish to kill.

Nothing can be solved only by the sword, but I believe there are problems and opponents who simply will not respect a "turn the other cheek" approach. They will keep killing and hurting and oppressing those who resist them. We must extend a hand of friendship, try to love, try to understand, but if they are doing wrong, we must stand to resist them or correct them.

The trick is figuring out what is wrong and what is evil.

World War II was definitely just a case. Many of our recent wars are so much less clear cut. For example, I also support the efforts of NATO in Afghanistan, but not the invasion of Iraq.

Some people might think you must be one or the other - there is no range of options in between. You either take up arms or you never do (as the Quakers insist).

I have tremendous respect for Quakers. I do not deny them their right to conscienciously object and not participate. But I if there are not those who are will fight and die to protect those values of brotherhood, equality and freedom, then those who would force upon us prejudice, inequality and slavery will begin to win by the very virtue of their hunger for power and aggression.

the catch 22 that Christians can find themselves in is this

2 roman catholics go to war on opposite sides...
both their preists pray and bless the weapons of war
both are assured god is on THEIR side.
both end up killing each other.

is that something jesus expected to happen? true christians killing each other of the EXACT same faith? just because they happened to be born in different places?

im sure not.

there are many historical accounts DOCUMENTING that the early christians would not take up arms..

here is just a few

"A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.""”"The Rise of Christianity."

The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire states: "It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes."

The Early Church and the World: "Up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least [161-180 C.E.], no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism."

I would definitely say that I am on the side against any kind of violence - a big pacifist am I. I would much rather be killed than take the life of another person. If it is my destiny to be killed by another than it is, and that is what will happen. If I were to kill another person even in self defense I would feel overwhelming guilt. I find it more of a wordly opinion to find it ok when it is self defense to kill a person, than a spiritual opinion.

ky1e - I don't if we can ever wholly ever say that God IS on our side.

War should always be seen as a failure of all people involved to resolve the matter using other means.

If a priest were to counsel that God was on their side, I think that that priest is doing his parishioner a grave disservice.

With regards to the idea that you can simply allow someone to kill you - I'd like to believe that I would have that kind of strength. However I have to know what the circumstances are.

What if my non-resistance allowed a violent psychopath to continue on his/her path and kill others? Would that be a good use of my life?

What if my non-resistance to another's agression led to my death and my children (2 & 4 (see profile pic) were orphanned. Do I have the right to force them to live without one parent, so that I could non-violently allow someone to kill me.

Now if it were me having to use force to defend my children, then I have no doubt that I would do any and EVERYTHING to protect them.

shawn you bring up some very good points

id allow myself to be killed, but if someone was going to kill my child..maybe my mind would be different...

self-defense is allowed in the bible for sure...

i have faith that god will resurrect everyone deserving of life in his new system with christ as king, so if people get killed by insane people, and even if I DO, we will be back, so in the end what was a few years less in this imperfect life of 70-80 years max...compared to an infinity of everlasting life...whos gona be counting then :-)

that doesnt mean we should just let everyone murder our children, its a touchy moral issue i realize...there is no perfect answer, we must try to grow in wisdom so we can react the best we can when and if that time comes.

To save someone who asks for help. To save themselves if they have unfulfiled duties [like a child or saving someone else].

This is a weighty topic that has led to much discussion over the years. Well timed for Remembrance Day, too (and my sermon about that in the morning). Fact first : the commandment is "do not MURDER", not kill. There are two different words in Hebrew, this is the murder one. 'tis an important distinction.

That said, Jesus was clearly all about non-violent resistance. He exlicitly refused violence on more occasions than I count, and mocked it in a couple. So, speaking purely for myself here, I would have little difficulty arguing that when it comes to serving our own needs, even our own self defence, Jesus seems to be arguing that we need to be pacifists.

The issue that isn't really discussed, however, is the issue of what is acceptable to help someone else. Self-sacrifice for someone else's benefit is clearly OK, but what about causing harm to save someone else? A much trickier argument, I think. My basic position on this is this: war is always a failure. Even when there are no other options, it is a failure. But the basic fact that we are not perfect will mean that we will find ourselves in situations where there IS no other option, and it may well be that to do nothing would be the greater sin.

Sketchy, brief, but hey. There it is.

Thanks for this thread.

Pacifism takes alot of courage. I do not have that courage. i look at Jesus' example for guidance on the Ideal of pacifism.

As I recall, he said that those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. Not a clear condemnation of soldiering. He also drove the money changers out of the Temple. Did he lose his temper or is this an example we should follow?

Rev Matt. I agree that ultimately there will be times when doing nothing is the greater evil. I also agree, and this was part of my sermon too, that war is and should always be seen as a failure. We need to be careful that the fairlure is on the part of our leaders and not on military personnel, who once we've/they've failed are only doing what we've told them to do.

One of the things that I like ab out Remembrance Day is that it reminds us that war is the ultimate horror which we as a species have not be able to grapple or perhaps resolve.

We seem to fall into war when one side has an overwhelming advantage - but are more reluctant when the sides are even or perhaps the stakes are too high - such as with the possibility of nuclear war.

I honestly don't know where the world is going with the so called war on terror - I can't say that I believe that the world will suddenly be rid of 'terrorists' in as much as I don't think the world is going to be suddenly free of drugs with the 'war on drugs.'

Having said that I do see the mission in Afghanistan as different from Iraq. Iraq to me seemed to confused with other issues of oil and dare i say vengence on the part of the US. Afghanistan to me had a clear goal, to hunt the perpetrators of 9/11 and bring them to justice, if possible. To replace a dangerous theocracy with something that would move toward democracy - or would at least provide it's citizens with greater freedoms. At least I hope that that is still the goal.

My real wish is that Afghanistan could become a model for the world to act in places where a government has become so totalitarian that it is ignoring the rights of it's citiaens. Sadly this has not happened in the Sudan - maybe soon.