Tabitha: It was happening twenty-five years ago...people just weren't  free to call it what it was. I had friends on the block with two moms...of course, I thought it was mom and aunt for a few years until my step-mom told me... the adults on the block knew differently and went along with the name "Auntie Terri"...and that was precisely because glbt couples didn't have the freedom to call it what it was....but when I found out, it didn't change anything for me and my friends...actually, they were the coolest parents on the block....young and "hip" and everyone liked them...well, the kids did. Theother  parents may have had issues.

Good for Carrie Underwood. It's so nice to see more Christians come out in favor of marriage equality. If that's not yet the majority position of born again Christians it soon will be. The fundamentalists are wrong and while there is value in secular arguments in favor of equal rights for LGBTQ people, I want to see more people of faith make the moral argument in favor of equality as well.

And again your deep-seated anger, disrespect of others and hatred of religion appears. Praying for you no matter what. 

I am absolutely disrespectful of ideas that persist just because they're claimed in the bible on the back of no evidence whatsoever. 

If you're supposed to lead, it doesn't matter if you pray, as long as you can think for yourself. Making public policy based on what some people wrote down 2000 years ago is idiotic. We need people who, regardless of personal beliefs, can weigh arguments for different positions and give them their due consideration, without assigning additional weight to positions just because they're in some old book.

And honestly, I don't care if you pray for me. Statistically, it does nothing, and in the extremely unlikely event that there is a just, loving god, the chances that this god would think much of your beliefs are even lower.

As has been stated, there is stuff in the scriptures regarding same-sex relations AND race-mixing.

Keeping Levitical Law means no pork, no mixed fabrics...

I do not know many Christians who do.

Leviticus was written for Levites (thus Leviticus). It is a priest manual and applies to all the people. In other words it is like taking the UCCan manual and saying, "this is what being a Christian is". It means what a UCCan Christian is, but other Christians may disagree. It is like taking a few thousand year old manual and saying this is what the rules are. Many Jews do not read Leviticus 18 and 20 the way it has been presented.

Christians can sleep in the same bed as someone on their menses. Christian women do not do ritual baths after their menses. Christians can have an uncovered head, wear cotton-polyester blends, shave.....

Why are Christians worried about Levitical Law and keeping one aspect of it while eating shrimp and bacon?

As for Sodom and Gemorah, I will say that Christians might consider Jesus' teachings. Jesus said the sin was "not being hospitable". He did not say homosexuality. So, I find it odd when Christians ignore Jesus and focus more on Jewish law.

I would argue that what we modern folks think of as homosexuality is not even discussed-not in the Old Testament and not in the New Testament. What is discussed is prostitution, coercion, and/or exploitation. Those things were wrong as it related to men. They were often a-ok as it related to women.

The 32nd(?) Annual Toronto Pride Parade happens this Sunday.  I wonder if there will be a United Church presence in the parade again this year?

SG, where does Jesus state this?

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

SG,

it's amazing how that ignorance can still be taught...

I'm happy for Carrie Underwood if she felt that what she was doing was best for her.  I wish this wasn't an issue, I wish people didn't have to "come out" in support... but, alas that is not the reality.

MC Jae .... maybe a read of Ezekiel 16 would be helpful?

.... and perhaps a look at the situation at hand when Jesus made reference to Sodom??

Also, if one is to look at the sexual sins of Sodom please consider that the men of the city gathered at Lot's place to rape Lot's guests.   The purpose of the rape was control and subjucation which is an extreme form of inhospitality.   Since all the men of the city are implicated then it would follow that these would be rapists were heterosexuals.   This is an indictment of the use of sex for sunjucation rather than the condemnation of homosexuals.     Once again, this is an example of an abuse of sex.   It would seem that other scriptures paint a picture of a people that abused sex and many other things.

By the way ... what do you make of Lot offering up his virgin innocent daughters to the rapists???   Imagine those young innocent girls being put out the door by their father to be raped and abused by a big scary crowd of men.....     And not a peep from God ......

This one causes me a lot of trouble.......    Nevermind the "gays" ..... this to me is much worse......

Your thoughts please ...... you want to be a pastor ... what do you make of this???

Some difficult stuff for sure ..... hopefully you can approach the question....

Regards

Rita

Helpful with what exactly RIta?

I think the term "inhospitality" is putting it too lightly. If someone who was at one time my friend shows up at my barbq part uninvited and I ask them to leave that may be inhospitality at work. The sin of Sodom involved more than that. The men of the city wanted to basically gang rape the angels. Imho that's violence beyond inhospitality. I wouldn't even call it sex. It was about power and nought much else. You're right, there is similar abuse going on in other Scriptures as well.

Lot was not a perfect man himself. His actions here speak of the great propensity for sinfulness that is a part of every natural person. Freedom from this propensity is possible through Christ. As for judgment from God, I believe that came when God destroyed the city.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

People belong to churches, but they often disagree with the positions of the higher ups who make policy.

In Canada for example the support for same sex marriage is and has always been higher among Catholics than among United Church members. The offical positions of the governements is the reverse of many members. In the case of the Catholic Church for example, over 95% support the use of artificail birth control.  Membrs of churches including Carrie Underwood do not see the need to accept all or even most beliefs of their church governement. The church is not it's power strcture, it is all of the people who believe.

In fact I would say that of conservative church members  who buy music like Carrie (young people) most would agreee with her. ALso she sells music to other people, and she is trying to break through in Europe.  So by "coming out" now, she risks little and has a lot to gain.

  Conservative church governements are not worried any more about liberal churches, but the fact that inside their churches their membrs have a different system of belief, that does not need to sync with the leadership/

Ok so far MC Jae ...... and why is there nothing said about Lot's action involving his daughters???

So ..... do we agree that the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality???

Just wondering ..... and thank you for the reply....

Regards

Rita

Alex, are you suggesting that Underwood's just saying she's in support as a tactic to up her sales?

This would be like what happened with McDonald's and the environment.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

Do you mean by God? I don't know, Rita. I'm not God. It's not up to me to make God's judgments. Perhaps whatever punishment or discipline Lot was due for this action came later.

Yes, I believe so.

RIch blessings.

---

MC jae

Jae, you ask if Underwood's just saying she's in support as a tactic to up her sales?

I can't speak for Alex, but in my opinion  "No".  I think, considering that many of her fans are in conservative churches, she made a courageous statement of what she believes to be right.  She probably risk losing fans.   If she didn't, I think that is a credit to her fans. 

No like most of her age group she supports same sex marriage.  However for her to make this announcement at this time (the start of her first European tour)the announcement  is designed to increase her appeal, by showing  that while she is a Chrsitian, she is not a bigot. Which is how most non CHristians see Chridtians.

Good observation. You may have a point there regarding her appeal to Europeans.

The Dixie Chicks did the same thing thing when they had there first European Tour, when the announced that they opposed the Invasion of Iraq.  That was courageous as it was seen as an attack on the Troops back in the USA, and cost them dearly. Howevr support for same sex marriage today is greater in the USA and those who oppose it are liklely to have friends who support it. Especially among those who buy music and attend concerts.

The wickedness of Sodom is all over the Bible and in Jewish writing, but it is not usually about homosexuality. Homosexuality is a far later interpretation.

Moses and Ezekiel emphasize Sodom’s lack of hospitality, greed, idolatry, gluttony but never mention homosexuality as the sin of Sodom.

There is a Hellenistic influence as Jewish philosophers began to reinterpret the Sodom story to reflect the views of Greek philosophers, including Plato.

If we look at Matthew 10:15 & Mark 6:11

Jesus refused to go along with the increasingly popular first century Jewish view of Sodom, that the sin of Sodom was some kind of same sex activity. The sin of Sodom that Jesus points out is inhospitality.

In fact, no verse of scripture anywhere in the Bible mentions homosexuality in connection with Sodom.

I'd like to know why certain Christian groups use the Sodom story to say that the Bible condemns homosexuality, yet seem to be okay that Lot offered his daughters to be raped. Is that one reason why much sex abuse has been done in churches? It is God's will?????  I personally do not want to have anything to do with such a god thank you.

Northwind, I don't know of any Christian groups who support the offering up of people to be raped.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

It probably is something similar to how Christians can believe in an omnibenevolent G_d, disregarding such things as how that same G_d who murdered all those children in Egypt and didn't punish Pharoah who was the one who was going against G_d and how G_d can make a newborn child suffer for 7 days and then die instead of punishing the child's father...

People believe wierd things :3

(just goes to show again that it isn't the bibble that is making people do better and be better -- it is people themselves who are doing it)

That may be so. At the same time, when they use that passage to say that god is against homosexuality, they are by default suggesting that offering daughters up for rape......aren't they? Making no comment on that part is condoning it. At least in my pea brain it is. We have been subject to a male-centric telling of god's story that the women don't seem to matter. All that seems to matter here is than a man is not suppose to lie with a man.......no interpretation of the hospitality issue, etc.......

You need to keep up with current events.  Have you heard of Abu Ghraib?

Warren Jeffs and the FLDS church offer their daughters for statutory rape, just for one off the top of my head.

In all fairness, the fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (an utterly repulsive group) are not Christians.

The story of Lot in Sodom is told in few words and we fill in a lot of blanks.

Sodom was not destroyed because of the threatened rape of two angels. God told Abraham he was going to destroy the place because they were already raping and probably robbing and killing every stranger that happened into town. Abraham tried to intercede for them, but there were not enough righteous to stop God’s hand. So you may want to save them, Abraham may want to save them, but God’s justice is going to prevail.

Lot sees these guys come into town, it’s dark and he thinks he can sneak them in and out in the morning before everybody wakes up. Does he know they are angels? I think so. I don’t think he has tried this before, as his solution of giving his daughters to the mob has never happened before – they are still virgins.

Lot goes outside and pleads with the crowd and comes up with the give over the daughters solution. We don’t know if this is an easy thing for him to suggest, but we all say, “What a jerk, I would never offer up my daughters to an angry mob to save a couple of strangers or even a couple of angels!”

That seems right to anybody.  But God did not let the daughters be turned over to the mob. The angels rescued Lot and the daughters.

Anyway, I agree that Lot probably tried the wrong thing. But does God?

He handed his only son to the mob to save you. This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Lot may be closer to God than we think.

7 Let the wicked forsake their ways
    and the unrighteous their thoughts.
Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them,
    and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.
 

I've often wondered why it is that evangelical/conservative Christians are so obsessed with gay sex. It appears to be the only thing they ever talk about these days.

Of course back when I was and evangelical Christian, the fashionable obsession du jour was the "Satanic Panic", which also turned out to be a ridiculously stupid obsession about nothing.

Before that, it was the commie bastards taking over the world that was the evangelical/conservative obsession.

Before that it was the world wide Jewish conspiracy that occup;ied their every waking moment.

Before that....

Are we noticing a trend here?

Yes,

I think it's called the straw man fallacy

ad nauseum

this straw man?

Ah, sorry, I forgot to consult you to ask if they were Christians or not.

It's an easy mistake to make, but now you know :3

I agree Saul_Now_Paul ....... you are correct....

The interpretation that the sin of Sodom was homosexuality is indeed a strawman argument.    And again you and Witch are right as there have been many other instances like that throughout the years by the "church".

A rather good time to take a sober and more considered look at things for sure....

Regards

Rita

The best version of Jesus Take the Wheel is a cover from Kristin Chenowith from GCB.  She dedicates it to Amanda who has just returned to her home town and church after her husband died in a car crash, caused by him being "distracted" by AManada's best friend.           So to welcome Amanda back she sings in church this song.

I haven't seen anything on this yet, but if it is accurate then I think I'm a brand new fan of Ms. Underwood .

Thank you!!! (I just pulled a revjohn)

Hugs

Saul_Now_Paul    .... indeed you did pull a revjohn

Kudos to you!

Big HUGS!!

Rita

Therein lies some of the problem.  THEY claim they are Christians living God's law, not man's (sic) law.  You don't think they're Christians, many have told me I am not a Christian.  It's a bit of a problematic term.  I think I am a Christian despite the feedback of my more conservative relatives. Everyone thinks they own the label "Christian" and everyone who isn't their brand of Christian isn't included.

It helps to illustrate the point that, with the Bible, one can make virtually anything "stick"; bans on premarital sex, gay sex, interracial relationships and so on.  One could argue in favour of concubines and polygamy, raping and selling daughters, patriarchy, all sorts of violence, war, and human rights abuses.  Heck, go to town,  It's all there in the Bible and a crafty exegesis could offer a plausible argument.

For me, the crux of the issue is Jesus.  Jesus was a radical socialist who challenged the status quo in favour of radical inclusion.  He looked beyond the literalist crap and saw PEOPLE who needed to be loved and accepted and live in a just society.  And by doing just that we move a step towards creating God's Kingdom. 

I will applaud and celebrate all who look beyond convenient labels and see people.