Conservative evangelical Christians are fighting battles, but they don't realize that they have already lost the war. In 2062, those who opposed same sex marriage in 2012 will be seen exactly as we see those who opposed interracial marriage in 1962.

We live in an age when even the President of the United States can come out and support same sex marriage, and it's not universally declared a political mistake. Carrie Underwood supporting it will cost her some album sales from traditional fans, but will likely win her new fans to make up for it.  That's in 2012. In 2008, it probably would have killed Obama's chances, and stalled Underwood's career. In a few more years, most of us will wonder what all the fuss was about.

As interracial marriage became widely accepted, I wonder what excues the old anti-interracial folks came up with? Anti-same-sex marriage folks may want to study up on that question.

I agree Chansen! In 2062 us elderly folk will be telling the youngsters about how much has changed in our lifetimes and they will look back at us in shock because each of them will know several families where the parents are both women or both men -  and each will also know multiple transgendered people.

Yep, and part of what is fuelling this societal shift, is that so many young people have gay friends. Could you imagine voting for legislation that would limit rights to your friends? Neither can they. The anti-same sex marriage people are screwed.

the future is here, it just isn't evenly distributed

-- paraphrasing the great Bruce Sterling

(talk aboot still being hypnotized longer after the hypnotist has left the room)

I have never been able to understand why this is such an issue. It's not like there is a shortage of much more real problems out there.

It's kinda like peering into someone's living room and being angry that their doily was made the wrong way ;3

Absolutely, there is no good reason this should be such a big issue.  But many people think it's icky, and the bible gives ample reasons to oppose it, so many Christians will oppose it.

If it was up to non-believers who aren't influenced by old dogma, I think it's over 90% of us have no problem with same sex marriage. This is such a non-issue for us. It's primarily people who believe in God who really, really care that your sex life is acceptable to them.

Screen froze, resulting in two posts, slightly different, but close.... chose one

I wish people would look at more why they are criticizing and what it might mean, not about Carrie, but about themselves.

I mean, when she said “I trained my vocal chops in church”, they said “Amen!”
When she said, “I love Jesus” or “I am a Christian”, they said, “Witness!”
When she sang songs with overtones or obvious faith messages (Jesus Take the Wheel is pretty obvious about faith), they said “Sing it, sister!”

They said it pretty loud. The girl in seven years has acquired a room full of awards. She is the ONLY 2X female Academy of Country Music entertainer of the year (the AMC started in 1966). No, not Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, Barbara Mandrell, Reba McEntire, Shania Twain… Yeah, Carrie.  Her first album was the highest selling female debut EVER in country music. Underwood in the past month became the Billboard’s Female Country Artist with most number one hits, breaking her own Guinness Book record of eleven number ones, that was tied with Reba McEntire.
 

Now, she says, “As a person of faith, I have searched my soul and prayed and this is where I am” and they say “What?” or “Heathen” or worry she is lost and headed into the pit.

If not compelled by faith, why would she say this?

I am not shocked by the response. Jesus said, “listen, I have searched my souls and prayed…” and people still shouted about the unwelcome, those they felt were unclean, the lepers… they felt righteous and called….

Her beliefs, and others, will differ from their parent’s or grandparent’s. It happened when religious folks faithfully said, “interracial marriage should not be outlawed, even if I would not marry someone outside my race based on my beliefs”.  

The question is whether you support gay marriage in the church, in society, both or neither.

The question is easy to answer from a superficial place. It is harder to answer from a deeper place.
 

I get people saying, “I cannot marry you.”  It is a matter of conscience and faith. I get, “not in the church”. I mean if think something is wrong, how do you bring it into your church?

That said, I get people saying, “we can and will.” Again, it is a matter of conscience and faith. I get that if they think it is ok, they will allow it.

No matter where we stand on gay origination, gay marriage, we should agree that as Christians it is Biblically correct to stand in solidarity with those not treated as equals.

So, what about society? The question is, if something exists in society should people have equal rights? Should you support and defend it?  

We can get all righteous and say it is wrong in the Bible and we refuse to support what is wrong. But, where do we separate our Bible from our laws? A person could, on biblical grounds, say marrying someone of a different faith should be illegal. Should it be? A person could, using the Bible, say a man could have as many wives as he wanted, whatever age he wanted.

Merging biblical law, faith law, and civil law can meet with disaster. Have we thought about Sharia law? Do we support it? Is what we tout similar or different? How?

Do we support homogeneity? Would we want to legally enforce it? How?

See, if I woke tomorrow in a society that only permitted homosexual marriage, I would champion equal rights. I would say that no matter whether I agree or disagree, based on faith, they are my equal.
IMO Whether we think someone is in the right or wrong camp on an issue or topic, we are equals.

I do not wish to remove equal or same from my Bible. I do not want to remove them from societal law. I do not think I am superior. I do not think anyone is inferior.

I would do as I do now, even if I thought they were wrong. I would respect the person listening. I would trust the Holy Spirit to lead them.  We might disagree, but we are equals. I cannot say you are my equal if I try to control you, uphold laws that are discriminatory, or manipulate the law to bar you.

I would, as a homosexual, have to tell my fellow homosexuals that making heterosexuals a target is wrong. I would have to say that pride and hatred are wrong. I would tell them pride is antitheses to faith (Romans 3). I would say you cannot love God and hate those made in the image of God (James 3, 1John 4)

Even if I personally felt it was wrong, I would feel compelled by the teachings of Jesus, the Holy Spirit to stand in solidarity with those ostracized and abused and treated unequally. I could not call it concern or love to tell them how bad or wrong they were. I could not call it concern or love to tell them they were going to hell, because God’s business is God’s and I cannot pretend to know who is heading where. The list of sinners includes us all. I could not call it love or concern to try to forcibly convert them or have their parents send them away. I could not call it love or concern to want unequal laws and discrimination. I just couldn’t.

I would look at my life, the love I know, the happiness I have found, and wish it for them… in whatever container, shape or size, colour they found it in.  Yes, even my worst enemy.

For me, Jesus’ test of love was when it was for someone not in our own group. The real test in equality is when we defend the rights of those we are afraid of, those we fear, those others do not like, those we disagree with….

I wish people would look at more why they are criticizing and what it might mean, not about Carrie, but about themselves.

I mean, when she said “I trained my vocal chops in church”, they said “Amen!”
When she said, “I love Jesus” or “I am a Christian”, they said, “Witness!”
When she sang songs with overtones or obvious faith messages (Jesus Take the Wheel is pretty obvious about faith), they said “Sing it, sister!”

They said it pretty loud. The girl in seven years has acquired a room full of awards. She is the ONLY 2X female Academy of Country Music entertainer of the year (the AMC started in 1966). No, not Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, Barbara Mandrell, Reba McEntire, Shania Twain… Yeah, Carrie.  Her first album was the highest selling female debut EVER in country music. Underwood in the past month became the Billboard’s Female Country Artist with most number one hits, breaking her own Guinness Book record of eleven number ones, that was tied with Reba McEntire.
 

Now, she says, “As a person of faith, I have searched my soul and prayed and this is where I am” and they say “What?” or “Heathen” or worry she is lost and headed into the pit.

If not compelled by faith, why would she say this?

I am not shocked by the response. Jesus said, “listen, I have searched my souls and prayed…” and people still shouted about the unwelcome, those they felt were unclean, the lepers… they felt righteous and called….

Her beliefs, and others, will differ from their parent’s or grandparent’s. It happened when religious folks faithfully said, “interracial marriage should not be outlawed, even if I would not marry someone outside my race based on my beliefs”.  

The question is whether you support gay marriage in the church, in society, both or neither.

The question is easy to answer from a superficial place. It is harder to answer from a deeper place.
 

I get people saying, “I cannot marry you.”  It is a matter of conscience and faith. I get, “not in the church”. I mean if think something is wrong, how do you bring it into your church?

That said, I get people saying, “we can and will.” Again, it is a matter of conscience and faith. I get that if they think it is ok, they will allow it.

No matter where we stand on gay origination, gay marriage, we should agree that as Christians it is Biblically correct to stand in solidarity with those not treated as equals.

So, what about society? The question is, if something exists in society should people have equal rights? Should you support and defend it?  

We can get all righteous and say it is wrong in the Bible and we refuse to support what is wrong. But, where do we separate our Bible from our laws? A person could, on biblical grounds, say marrying someone of a different faith should be illegal. Should it be? A person could, using the Bible, say a man could have as many wives as he wanted, whatever age he wanted.

Merging biblical law, faith law, and civil law can meet with disaster. Have we thought about Sharia law? Do we support it? Is what we tout similar or different? How?

Do we support homogeneity? Would we want to legally enforce it? How?

See, if I woke tomorrow in a society that only permitted homosexual marriage, I would champion equal rights. I would say that no matter whether I agree or disagree, based on faith, they are my equal.
IMO Whether we think someone is in the right or wrong camp on an issue or topic, we are equals.

I do not wish to remove equal or same from my Bible. I do not want to remove them from societal law. I do not think I am superior. I do not think anyone is inferior.

I would do as I do now, even if I thought they were wrong. I would respect the person listening. I would trust the Holy Spirit to lead them.  We might disagree, but we are equals. I cannot say you are my equal if I try to control you, uphold laws that are discriminatory, or manipulate the law to bar you.

I would, as a homosexual, have to tell my fellow homosexuals that making heterosexuals a target is wrong. I would have to say that pride and hatred are wrong. I would tell them pride is antitheses to faith (Romans 3). I would say you cannot love God and hate those made in the image of God (James 3, 1John 4)

Even if I personally felt it was wrong, I would feel compelled by the teachings of Jesus, the Holy Spirit to stand in solidarity with those ostracized and abused and treated unequally. I could not call it concern or love to tell them how bad or wrong they were. I could not call it concern or love to tell them they were going to hell, because God’s business is God’s and I cannot pretend to know who is heading where. The list of sinners includes us all. I could not call it love or concern to try to forcibly convert them or have their parents send them away. I could not call it love or concern to want unequal laws and discrimination. I just couldn’t.

I would look at my life, the love I know, the happiness I have found, and wish it for them… in whatever container, shape or size, colour they found it in.  Yes, even my worst enemy.

For me, Jesus’ test of love was when it was for someone not in our own group. The real test in equality is when we defend the rights of those we are afraid of, those we fear, those others do not like, those we disagree with….

BTW young evangelicals are not their parents or grandparents... Carrie Underwood, Jay Bakker.....and countless others.

And in increasing numbers, the children of evangelical Christians are not carrying on the tradition of being evangelical Christians.  They're not just accepting of people regardless of sexuality - in increasing numbers, they are thinking for themselves and becoming non-believers.  It's all rather amazing to watch.

Evangelicals in church, dressed to the nines toting Bibles or veins popping with a message is a little inaccurate.

A young evangelical can abandon church without abandoning faith.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/16/opinion/stepp-millennials-church/index.html

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1992463,00.html

That might be true chansen if North America existed in a bubble. It does not. The wave of the future (and in very many ways the present) in the global South is conservative evangelical, especially of the Pentecostal/Protestant traditions. And as conservative evangelicals immigrate from the South to the North they will bring their conservative ideologies with them. Add to that the soon-to-come death of liberal denominations such as the United Church of Canada that in large degree push the liberal agenda forward, and it can be seen that the North America you predict may never come to pass.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

People who believe in God want society to be run in what they consider to be God's way. Of course there is difference of opinion on just what that means. That's why we Christians should be thankful that we have The Holy Bible to guide us into understanding God's will for our lives and our societies.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

The children of those immigrants are bright - give them a chance. Just like the children of evangelical Christians are leaving in droves, the children of new immgrants will follow in the footsteps of their peers, not their parents.

Again, these kids are thinking for themselves. The mistake evangelical parents are making, is that they want what's best for their kids, and they're getting their kids an education. With that, these kids are making friends with gay and lesbian kids, and they aren't threatened by them.

Unless you're assuming the children of immigrants aren't going to be friends with GLBT people, it's bound to happen. These young people are not going to grow up to vote against the happiness of their friends. In the end, hate will lose.

Fuck that. I don't believe in your (or any other) god, I don't want to be governed according to your bullshit god-rules, and I will oppose any idiotic bible-based thinking for the dogmatic claptrap that it is.

We need people who can think and lead, not pray and follow.

Actually Somegal-It is happeningNOW. My children HAVE had classmates with 2 moms. (At least the 2 born in 1992 and 1995). And those are just of the parents I know. It's no big deal to them.

at Jae I don't hink you speak for ALL CHRISTIANS. I'm not sure I want society run God's way. I do want a fair and just society.

Here are my thoughts...

I have a friend who is a PHC'er (Pentecostal Holiness Church), actually Church of God in Christ (a PHC that is largely black) and has seeded churches and been a missionary all over. We have had this conversation before. He is far more gentle and understanding than we see shown here. Why?

He worries any of us can find ourselves a Carlton Pearson. We can build Azusa, fill stadiums, have tremendous growth... and see it all crumble. Where his neighbours are, he may find himself.

He worries for his own denomination, because as they spread, they also may one day find themselves over a barrel like Anglicans in North America have found themselves.

So, he does not dance around about other churches facing a loss of numbers or division or the face of the church.

He worries realistically that with numbers comes power and also responsibilitty. It is not all a party.

That a young doe eyed shepherd like David, can become a Goliath. He has seen too often the person who just answered an altar call, those new to faith. He has seen their zealousness be far fromt he Christ he worships.

He worries about cultural differences. As he is open about, his denomination does not approve of homosexuality. What if those converts that read that Bible see "kill" homosexuals and take that literal too? What of those who go to Africa and teach deliberately or casually how wrong homosexuality is? Do they see danger? Do they care? If they want to execute them, imprison them... That is not what PHC'ers support. Would they be divided? Would they lose all the numbers? Coudl they face ruin?

So, no he does not celebrate some churches situations. He has fears and concerns of his own.

He is also a Christian. He does not just play one.

We are friends. Our outlook, though we differ on some issues, is that he gathers the sheep he gathers and I gather the sheep I do and we both do so in the name of Jesus. For either of us to malign or trip the other, maligns the one we come in the name of and it is a stumbling block... we are gathering flocks for the same Master, not arguing about who has the better sheep.

Some things to ponder:

According to statistics from the U.N., Islam is now the world's second largest religion after Christianity.  The U.N. statistics state that the annual growth of Islam is around 6.40% compared to 1.46% during the same time period for Christianity.  Also 1 in 5 people on the planet are Muslim (by birth or geographical reference).

In North America, Islam has increased 25% since 1989 while Christianity has shown a steady decline.

I'm not a country fan and Carrie Underwood isn't someone you'd find on my MP3 or CD player. However, she appears to have spoken with the conviction of wisdom and faith and I'd hope that would be respected, even by those who disagree with where it has led her. She is a private citizen and entitled to her views. She is not beholden to follow those of her faith or her fans, though she needs to be prepared for the reaction when she expresses views that contradict theirs. I agree with her as will many others, but many won't. She may lose some fans. She may also gain some fans. She has gained my respect but not likely me as a fan. I'm not someone who picks my music based on politics or faith, but on liking the music.

Mendalla

MC Jae ...... would you please tell us your personal views on two questions...

First ....... Do you agree or disagree with Carrie Underwood's position on the issue?

Second ...... Do you agree or disagree with the reaction from the "conservative evangelical christians" that have now rejected her due to her views?

Please ... clear concise answers would be helpful to me.

Regards

Rita

You know what, "People who believe in God" are not a homogenous group. I do not want to live in a society that some people believe is God's way. There is very good reason for separation of church and state. 

I'd like to know what you think of Carrie Underwood's views too. 

As for me, good on her! 

MC Jae,
I don't understand your priorities.
.
A recession not equalled since the Great Depression is hitting many parts of the world (and will likely reach Canada). Meanwhile, we have ongoing problems like global warming and other severe environmental issues.
.
I just can't be bothered worrying about gay marriage. It's a non-starter. Why should I care? How does it hurt me in any way?

EasternOrthodox,

No disrespect, but even from a political or economic standpoint this could be rather important.

My opinion, as an ex-pat, is that this is a big issue in upcoming election in the US. Nothin Mitt Romeny did fired up his base, it is what Obama did (coming out in support of same sex marriage). Who is in the White House matters.  As we, as Canadians, know it will matter to us and our economy. 

The accusation that is hurled is that it is liberals and non-Christians supporting this stuff...
so when Jay Bakker supports gay marriage, when Carrie Underwood does... it matters.

We can say "who cares" comparing it to the economy. But, if you lose a partner in the US and cannot get death benefits that matters more on how you are eating today than the Stock Market and how much investments dip or how easy it is to get a loan.

It matters to some Canadians who do not want equal marriage, because if gay marriage is legal here and the world has not ended ---- and Mexico allows it in some areas (but those marriages are recognized across the entire county) and the world has not ended and it goes into the US and there is no Great Flood, well then, they can't say it will lead to the world's end or people marrying turtles or whatever else they say. It will mean they are out of touch with the entire continent. So, it matters to them that it is stopped ewven if they do not live in the US.

SG,
Yes, I know it is a big issue in the US. I just lost patience there, as I have been spending a lot of time reading about the recession (which has not really hit Canada yet, but might well do so).
.
Just had a "chansen" moment there.
.
Continue with discussion although I don't think you'll bring MC Jae around.

What I will say Rita is that I cannot say that I am in support of same-sex marriage.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

That answers the first question I posed MCJae ...... thank you...

Would you care to answer the second question???

Thank you....

Regards

Rita

Not at this time Rita.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

I still can't get over how you can stand with your Korean wife, alongside the God-fearing grandchildren of the people in this crowd:

It truly boggles the mind.

EO,

It is a mistake if anyone thinks I believe I can change MCJae's mind or am even trying to.

It is unlikely MLK Jr. was trying to change the mind of George Wallace, Jim Clark, Bull Connor or the KKK

It is also unlikely that the Dalai Lama is trying to change the mind of Hu Jintao.

SG,
I swore off arguing with biblical literalists years ago. I'm not sure why MC Jae even started the thread.
.
Chansen, it is a non sequitur. MC Jae is a biblical literalist so you cannot expect him to approve of gay marriage (although it might be possible to convince him to take a live-and-let-live approach). But there is nothing in the Bible suggesting he should not marry a Korean.

But, if what you say is true, and there are good biblical reasons against same-sex marriage, but not interracial marriage, then I guess I'm wrong.

Chansen,
Homosexuality is condemned in the Old Testament. I'm not a real expert on it.
.
I am not aware that "race-mixing" is mentioned anywhere.
.
I'm not supporting his position--I am not a biblical literalist. But he is, I believe.

it's not condemned in the Bibble -- it is condemned by sombunall readers of the Bibble.

And where these people then go on to further interpret that to include lesbians I do not know how and where...I find it quite bizarre

That said, one of my old friends from college, who wasn't religious, was against same-sex marriage on monetary grounds...

sighsnootles has an excellent 'homosexuality in the bibble' boilerplate which she has whipped out more than a few times here :3

I contend that Jae is standing in the same spot where anti-interracial marriage protesters once stood. First I'm told that my logic doesn't follow, and now it appears to be an accurate comparison again.

MC jae is responsible for his thoughts, feelings and actions. Nothing else is.  There is no place for anyone to really hide from their own responsiblity, though they can constantly try

I grok what you are trying with MC jae and the analogy is apt :3

Inanna, Sodom and Gomorrah ring any bells?
,
From Wikipedia,
.
Leviticus 18 and 20
Chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus, which form part of the Holiness code, contain the following verses:
.
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.[3](Leviticus 18:22 KJV)
.
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.[4](Leviticus 20:13 KJV)
.
The two verses have traditionally been interpreted by many Jews and Christians (including fundamentalists but not exclusive to) as blanket prohibitions against homosexual acts. [5][6]
[edit]

EO

that was due to their BAD HOSPITALITY :3  to violate hospitality back then was to violate G_d's law...

read the bits in question again...somehow potential sex with angels becomes men lying with men?

Silly modern and ignorant claptrap

in fact, the only bit in Leviticus was in regards to the nearby pagan sex cults--Judaism was trying to strengthen its position, and that part of Leviticus only applied to Jews, one of the many Mosaic laws and if you were a gentile living in Jewish land, there were a lesser # of G_d's laws, but that one wasn't one of them

this bit of ignorance aboot homosexuality in the bibble being condemned is ignorant claptrap being promoted by certain authority figures who either can't think or have been doing it intentionally and I don't know what is worse :3

either way, anyone who thinks that homosexuality is EVILLLLLL and it says so in the bibble are responsible for their thoughts, ideas and feelings and actions on the subject and not a dead book that only lives when someone reads it...there are no places for believers to hide anymore

I never said I supported his position.

EO,

thanks for the incentive :3

Maybe I'll get banned for quoting those verses, but my intent was only to show chansen the origin of MCJae's position, and that there is nothing in the Bible about "race-mixing".

A valid attempt. Do you believe you succeeded? Are you sure you understand just what my position is?

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

If you think that interracial marriage was not condemned in the Bible, you should read your Hebrew scriptures more closely.  Time and again the people were told to keep the race of Israel pure, to put away their foreign wives and disown their mixed-blood children.  In other words 'marry your own kind'.  And in the Christian scriptures we are told 'do not be unequally yoked'.  Don't marry outside your group. 

Yes, I'm aware that these commands can be interpreted otherwise, so can the condemnation against the rape of strangers in Sodom and Gomorrah.

That your religion is more important than the happiness of others?

Nice try chansen.

However, when it comes to the debate over same-sex marriage the issue is not centered around happiness but rather around what kind of society we all want to be living in -- what values we want to uphold as being important to us.

That's how decisions should be, and have been, made in society.

When slavery ended it was not so that the slaves could feel an emotional high. It was because people decided that individual human freedom was more important than economic advantages held through slavery.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

I'm glad my church made the decision based, at least in part, on what kind of society we all want to be living in - and decided that we wanted one where people were welcomed and celebrated for who they are, where people are free and equal, where no one has to hide or deny something as inborn as their sexual identity, where adults are free to marry the person they love, and where children can grow up in loving families. 

Genesis 28:1: "And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan."

Deuteronomy 7:2-3: "And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

Deuteronomy 22:9: "Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled."

Jeremiah 13:23: "Can an Ethiopian change the color of his skin? Can a leopard take away its spots? Neither can you start doing good, for you have always done evil."

Acts 17:24-26: "God ... hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation ..."

All these verses are taken from transcripts of sermons delivered by conservative and evangelical Christian ministers presching that interracial marriage was against God's will and a sin.

Except that one of the principles of freedom is that no person should be forced to comply with the purely religious strictures of another.

Homosexuality and same sex marriage does not harm you in any way, nor are you being forced to be homosexual. Thus there is no public interest denied, nor freedom infinged, by allowing someone else to be married, even if you decide God doesn't like it.

Jews can't eat pork, but you don't see then trying to outlaw ham sandwiches for everyone else.

Especially when those strictures are contradictory at best, and cherry-picking at worst.

There is a curious paradox, that no one can explain:

who understands the secrets of the reaping of the grain?

Who understands why spring is born out of winters labouring pain,

or why we all must die a bit, before we grow again.

(quote from the Fantastiks)