My present wife offered to take a shower with me. That seemed to break the ice somewhat. She'd been to a few of my services but she hadn't been in counselling with me, or any other direct professional contact, so I didn't see any particular conflict.

Hi gratefulone,

I don't know what he would do.

If you want to know if he is attached the best way forward is to ask.  If nothing else it breaks the ice.

If I was approached and asked if I was attached I would say so if I was and say not if I weren't.

If I didn't recognize you as a member of the congregation I would be open. 

I'd need to ask some questions to ensure that I'm on safe ethical ground and we both would have to be very clear on boundaries.

Grace and peace to you.

John

You'll never find me dating a member of my denomination's clergy.

1.) I'm married.

2.) I'm straight.

3.) They're all men.

I had a thread asking how one finds out if someone is single.

I'd ask someone he knows if he's seeing anyone.

On another note, what's wrong with a single minister dating someone that goes to his or her church?  Married ministers are allowed to have their spouces in church.  :)

 I think that it would be fine to approach him as long as you weren't a member of the church. Who knows? Maybe it could be something wonderful! Let us know!

I asked my wife about dating people in the congregation and she said "NO!!!!" Sheesh, so much for lay leader...

Hi Sterton,

There is an optics issue.

Is it a relationship of equals or, considering the power differential between clergy and laity, is it a relationship of advantage?

Have I used my pastoral relationship to personal advantage kind of thing.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Good point RevJohn. Like Doctors cannot date their patients.

In the Russian Orthodox Church, Priests are not allowed to marry.  However, there is no problem with being ordained if they are already married.

The rules are largely dependant upon your situation, but there are a few basics.

You cannot date someone you are providing pastoral care or counselling to.

You cannot date anyone you have any position of authourity over (other members of staff, that kind of thing).

If you start to date someone, there must be a concrete arrangement about how they might receive pastoral care from one of your colleagues (arranged ahead of time, in case they need support that they can't / won't tell you about)

I'd suggest that there is absolutely nothing wrong with starting this conversation with your friend.  I hope it works out well for both of you!

Hi John, how is that any different from a married member of the clergy and his wife? People might still see it as you describe.

I don't disagree with you on the issue of optics/perception, etc., and since I'm married this isn't an issue for me. But...

One might point out that - appearances notwithstanding - the power differential (and in whose "favour" it works) isn't entirely clear. I've known at least one situation in the past (many years ago now) where a male minister was being sexually harassed by a female parishioner who was very open about the fact that she was "in love" with him and was convinced that he was "in love" with her even though he denied it, etc. Everyone thought it was talk. "Oh don't be silly. You're so much older than he is." Silliness aside, the woman was a respected member of the church, a Presbytery rep in fact. I know she had "mentioned" to him the fact that "only 10 people" had to sign a letter ... The minister had a hard time convincing people that he was being threatened and stalked by this woman because - of course - lay people don't do that to clergy; clergy do it to lay people. He eventually had to move to get away from her. A few weeks later, she moved - to the same city he had moved to! I think that's when everybody sat up and took notice. I know a restraining order was finally issued; no idea where it went from there. 

There's power on both sides of the relationship - in this case the power of threatening (however subtly) to try to remove the minister. Let's not overlook that.

Hi MorningCalm,

Presumably I am not using my position as clergy to take advantage of my wife.  It could still be happening.

Which would probably speak to an issue of genuine abusiveness.

In a dating situation I may not be using my power over a layperson to get what I want.  I would be vulnerable to such an allegation even if it weren't true.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi Rev Steven Davis,

Agreed.

Grace and peace to you.

John

 In seminary, we were definitely told by a woman from general council that as clergy we were NOT allowed to begin dating anyone in our congregation, and if we did, either they had to leave the church or we did..

Hello femmemomma and welcome to WonderCafe.ca

Notice the contradiction.  Not allowed . . .if you do . . .

Dating a member of the congregation is not not allowed it is not recommended.  Indeed almost an entire generation (if not more than one) of young single clergy ended up marrying someone they met on their settlement charge.

Which was actually seen as being something not undesireable.  I mean perhaps the in and out pattern of clergy settled to remote locations wouldn't be so much of a problem if our clergy were actually putting down roots in a community.

Of course things change and the young single clergy fresh out of seminary is a mythic figure.  Our clergy now resemble individuals retired from one profession taking on another with a spouse and family in tow and rarely able or willing to go to remote locations.  Those that do are typically a few years away from retirement.

So maybe the change in that dynamic leads to a change in the recommendations?  I'm not sure that it does, I'm suggesting that it might.  Maybe our young single clergy of a past age were not having the same boundary issues that our older clergy might be?

Grace and peace to you.

John

I was always amazed growing up, as a ministers daughter, by the expectation of others that our family life was somehow "perfect". Many would comment on how wonderful it must be to be my Dad's daughter and grow up with all of his "profound" wisdom.

Well, it was a privelge, but I saw Dad as Dad. Not some guru that spouted profound messages on a daily basis. He had to deal with the mundane and was obviously human. Thank God, who could live with a saint all the time. I'm sure this was a relief for my mother also.

My point is, it's very hard when you see a man as a respected public figure that delivers wise words, to be able to accept that this person is not infallible. If eventually you can see past the limelight and can envision accepting this fellow human being with the everyday struggles and joys that most humans encounter, I think it could be a blessing for both of you.

And so gratefulalone

Any news? Is he single? Have you asked him out for coffee?