I recently found myself so annoyed with someone that I felt like grabbing him by the scruff of the neck and giving him a good shake.  I didn't do it, of course.   But I wanted to ask him, "Did you get beaten up a lot when you were a kid?"   He certainly seemed to be taunting and annoying (not just me) and trying to get somebody to strike out against him.  It seemed he was inviting people to insult or ignor him. 

I read somewhere, some time ago, that people naturally crave attention.  If they don't have the skills, or the people around them are too busy or insensitive, to give them positive attention, they will force negative attention.   The more they are ignored, the more they will force the issue.  With little kids this might be hang on to a parent's or older child's clothing, crying 'Play with me', 'Let me come with you', 'Pay attention to me.'   The preoccupied parent might reward them with a moment, or might punish them by carrying them out of the room and plunking them on a chair.  Either way they've gained attention.  The same, the older kid might let them tag along, or might actually push them away or hit them.  Either way, they've got attention.  Could it be that some people just 'ask to be bullied'?

Bullies are very aware of "easy" targets...anyone that can be picked on for being different in any way, will be picked on.  Bullies bully for their own release of pent up emotions and for their own satisfaction.  They don't feel bad when people suffer, they feel empowered.   

The child you have described is manipulating for attention and may use being a "victim" as this manipulation.  It is far different from the cases of the real victims of bullying.

I was an easy target, a dream target in many ways.
 

But the real damage is when that becomes the self-description the target accepts.  By the time I was the best target I had lost a sense of self (not being aware of that until 15 years later in a counsellor's office) and had come to accept that treatment as "normal".  Which in turn made me a better target...

I have been listening to an audio book called Social Intelligence, and it describes this topic in one section. Yes, the bullied do often lack social intelligence, knowing the right things to say and do to put the bullies off, or change the bullies perspective. I figured that out myself around grade 7 or 8. Bully kids often think they're just having a bit of fun with you, and when I played along and made them laugh, they saw that I was actually pretty smart and rather funny, and therefore not so geeky after all. Finding some self respect, commands respect in return.

Gord W said "[I] had come to accept that treatment as "normal".  Which in turn made me a better target..."  That was so me.  Yes I think there are some people who have traits that make them easy to bully. Low self esteem, poor sense of self worth, poor sense of self, lack of confidence, shyness, being bookish, being an introvert, being different (different race from everyone else, different religion, different social background, different hobbies, different interests), being awkward.... I could go on

I knew bullying wasn't normal, but I couldn't figure out why it was happening to me. The fact was, I didn't have the self-confidence to stand up for myself. Eventually I figured out one of my bullies weak spots (literally and figuratively) and used that to my advantage. From that day forward I wasn't bullied any more, by anyone.

Hi seeler,

I think that there are likely a combination of factors.

I was bullied when I was younger.  I regret that I was not introspective enough to take stock of why that might be at the time.

As I got a little older I do know that my reluctance to fight seemed to embolden others to cast me in role of potential target.  I had a friend who was just as reluctant as I was without the personal discipline not to blurt out everythought that came into his head.  The bullies preferred him as a target.

Sticking my neck out for him a couple of times to try and smooth out a rough situation would end up with him cracking wise and disrespectful from a safe place while I was still in harm's way.  After a while, even though we remained friends, I began to step aside rather than step in between.  I figured he would learn sooner what he was doing wrong.  He broke that hypothesis.

Since then I have seen folk who compliment bullies nicely in that they present targets that nobody is going to be sympathetic with.  As with my friend, they become so disagreeable that you are tempted to stand aside rather than in between.

You mess with a bull you get the horns.

That only speaks to some.  It does not speak to all.  Some are targets of bullying for reasons that are only obvious to the bullies themselves.  I wonder if fear has anything to do with it.

I wonder if we, as human beings are capable of sensing fear in other human beings without them having to tell us directly that they are afraid.  If we can see clues in the body language of the other or hear inflections of it in the voice of the other.

I observe it easily in our dogs of various sizes and temperments.  One moment the dog is presenting as being way down the ladder and in the next that dog is Alpha and not to be messed with.  Just the other day our 80lb pup who is the sweetest and most docile of our three had a bone and became quite aggressive with the other two.  She growled at our male, who of the three is the Alpha and he backed off to the point he was barking for help so he could enter the room where we were.  I had to go and escort him past.  A few hours later the pup charged, bowled over and pinned our much smaller and older female who just happened to walk by.  Two days later that 30 lb female was giving hell to the 80lb pup and the bigger and younger dog couldn't get away fast enough.

My son, at 6' 3" is taller than I am.  He was terrified of high-school kids, even as a high-school kid.  I'm sure if he had been a lot smaller that fear would have attracted a bully just like blood in the water attracts sharks.  Fortunately, we were able to teach him, while he was young that the first way to talk to anyone is respectfully (he forgets around his sisters and his parents occasionally but what kid doesn't) so he didn't combine fear with aggravation.  That he didn't hide his ASD probably also bought him a bit of protection in that it gave him just enough room to be different without being a threat.

My experience with bullies in the Church is that they prefer not to do their bullying in the open or even directly (though there is enough who do it that honestly) they are very adept at manipulating emotion and allowing others to be their weapons.  That isn't always easy to see at first, eventually there is a tipping point when the bully steps out for the coup de grace, it isn't enough to have stacked the deck with willing weapons, there needs to be a personal killing stroke.  Fortunately, at this point the bully has over-committed and if caught, easily defeated and from time to time declawed as well.  I've done it twice.  It is not a fun experience.

It makes me a target on a list and people with grudges hold onto those lists for a long, long time.

Grace and peace to you.

John

While reading this thread I found myself reminded of a friend of one of my sons.  Grade 8 can be a tough year (so can the other grades!) my son expresed concern about his friend who was being bullied.  Apparently a group of kids were calling Dave a 'cry baby sissy'.  

Conversation revealed that he behaved in a way that made the name calling true.  Quite routine school experiences had Dave blubbering.

Our son talked to him and taught him some methods for 'swallowing tears' and the name calling stopped as soon as the crying went away.

Maybe there are times when, as our son noticed. people invite the bullies in? 

This story is all over the news around here today.

What I want to know is, why didn't anyone try to help her? Of course, maybe they did try to help and she was unable to see it.

I don't think those who are bullied start off doing anything to be a target.  I think most people experience the start of what could lead to bullying.  It's that start that's important though - how does the person handle that?

To me it sounds like many people tried to help her.  Who called an ambulance for her?  Was the counsellor she was seeing not trying to help?  She switched schools a few times, I'm guessing that wasn't done completely on her own.

I didn't start this hread to discuss this particular case.  It reads to me like this girl made a foolish mistake when she wass quite young, and it kept coming back at her.  Whether there was something else she could have done to defuse the situation, I really can't say. 

Rather I'm thinking about those adults I've met who made me wonder 'Did you get beat up often when you were a kid?' 

I know.  It was difficult for me to get back to this thread because it felt too close to home.  "Yes, I was beat up as a kid."   A boy in my schoolroom punched me every time he walked past my desk. No, it wasn't because he liked me and was trying to get my attention.  It was likely because he was frustrated and embarassed to be two years behind in school and still having trouble keeping up - and I was an easy target.  From the wrong side of the tracks, poor, with a sick mother and no one to stick up for me - and smart, but not smart enough to know enough not to show off.  I was there.  I reminded him of his inadequacies, and he punched me every change he got. 

An older girl, who I then considered my best friend also belittled, bossed, made fun of me, and occasionally pounded me from her two year, 20 pound advantage.  But I craved her friendship.  I wanted someone to walk to school with, to hang around with, to play with - so I put up with her bullying.  I didn't even realize that it was bullying.   

I had poor social skills.  It took me years, as an adult, to learn - to know how to join a group in the lunch room, to read body langugage, to know when to pull back.  To know when my questions and opinions would be welcomed as contributions, and when to keep my mouth shut.  I'm still working on it.  And I learned (when my daughter pointed it out) not to belittle myself and unconsciously invite others to do the same. 

There is a woman who attends our Bible discussion group at church.   She is intelligent.  She does her background reading, probably more thoroughly than anyone else in the group.  She has lots to contribute.  But almost every week she starts off with "This is prabably a stupid question.  I'm not educated like the rest of you.  I've never been to college.  etc "   She was a nurse - an RN on the oncology floor.  It's been pointed out to her that others in the group (me for instance) don't have a degree.  But she continues to put herself down, and to invite others to do so.  Did she get beat up often as a child?   She has indicated that she grew up in a strict family where children were not heard, and no one asked questions. 

Another acquaintance constantly interupted conversations and then dominated them, and would bring up every embarassing detail she could think of about a person's past.  She imposed on people.  Showed up uninvited.  Dropped broad hints that she wanted to be part of everything, and generally exhibited bad manners and poor social skills.   Did she get beat up often as a child?   Yes, I knew her back then.  She was a target.  

I don't remember noticing it so much among the boys, but I dare say it was present there too.  Some people seem to develop traits that make them targets, and it seems difficult, perhaps impossible, to get over them all. 

ps   This is not meant to be blaming the victim.  Bullying is always wrong, even if, especially if, the other presents an easy target. 

I remember my mom reminding me to take the high road.  even when an opportunity arose, you should do your best to treat people the way you would want to be treated.

so....if someone presents themselves as a target, you shouldn't target them.

so.. if someone has issues which make them vulnerable through depression or other items to insecurity....you shouldn't agree with them by putting them down.

I generally will ignore folks who I feel are in that state...when they are setting themselves up, or in my mind, being a twit.

When I name someone here in that way, it is typically as I feel they can take it. Naming, being abrasive, etc, is not by definition being a bully.

Seeler, I posted that link because I thought it was relevant to the conversation and I thought it might add something to the conversation. I'd suggest her story, while extreme, is not unusual. It seems to me that with technology being the way it is, these days its' more likely that your problems and past mistakes will follow you wherever you go.

somegal - while she was not on my mind when I started the thread, it was quite natural for her to come to mind when discussing victims of bullying.  It tears our hearts.  I keep wondering, what could she have done differently?  why was she the one to be hounded to her death?  She made a silly mistake that surely many young girls make.  I probably did worse in my culture in my time (while the internet was still science fiction), but it didn't follow me the rest of my life.   So was it just chance?  Or was there something that cried out 'victim', or 'kick me'?    

I'm not condoning bullying.  Again, I repeat, there is no excuse.  We could have a thread about bullies, what makes them that way, how can we help them to find other, victimless, outlets for their inadequacies?   But this thread is about the victims and why are they singled out.   I welcome your post.  But this case seems too raw and fresh to try to examine how she might have acted differently while people are still grieving.   I might be wrong. 

I finally watched Amanda Todd's video. Now I am of the belief that the word "bullying" is a lousy one. I would bet anything that she was the victim of a pedophile. Yes, she made a stupid mistake. Then this person who encouraged her to do that harassed her and her family, causing her to have to move schools, and have mental health issues. Did she help to encourage the "bullying"? I really do not think that is the proper way to describe how she became, or seemed to become, a bully magnet. She was scared, isolated and insecure. How does a person, especially a young teen, reach out and make new friends under those circumstances? It seemed that word got out about her photos, and she was blamed. What a terrible spot for her to be in.

I am now of the belief that the word "bullying" has lost any power. We feel powerless in its presence, and seem to have no proper ways to respond. I think perhaps calling what happened to Amanda (and sadly others) assault, sexual abuse, torment, torture, or things like that may be more appropriate.

I agree Northwind, bullying still occurs and while Amanda Todd did experience some bullying, much of what occurred to her was way beyond that.

Northwind - you've made me think.  Bullying is a broad term.  And what exactly does it mean?  Your kid comes home from school and tells you 'Jack is bullying me.'  What exactly has Jack done?  Pushed him out of the way during a rush for the swings?  Hit him? Called him names?  Retaliated in a scuffle between boys?  Only once?  or systematially? 

You are correct in trying to name the behaviour.  Assault?  Sexual assault?  Racial slurs?  Extortion (give me your lunch money)

When does a kid telling another, "Go away.  I don't like you. You're clumsey.  You can't play."  become exclusion and bullying?   Adults develop ways of avoiding or dealing with people they don't like.  But what is a kid to do when someone they really don't like insists or following them around trying to claim them as a friend?  Isn't it possible that the person who carries his tray from one table to another looking for a friend, only to find the empty chair is 'saved', or they are just leaving, until he ends up eating alone, is a kid with some poor social skills that other people find annoying or offensive?  How do you kindly tell a person that his personal hygiene isn't up to standards, or his sexist jokes are unappreciated, or his loud, boisterousness is out-of-place when he just doesn't take a hint?

Thank you for your replies ladies.

At work, occasionally I have parents come to me complaining that their child has been bullied. When I see what I perceive to be bullying behaviour, I always try to do something about it, including talking to the parents of both the bully and the victim - so I'm always taken aback when a parent comes to me first. I always wonder if I'm totally missing it, or if the child and parent have a different definition of bullying than I do. Where is the line between occasional aggression (physical, verbal and otherwise) and bullying?

I think frequency, and systematic, might be clues.  Does one kid always end up crying?  He may be a victim.  Does another kid often instigate fights?  He may be a bully.  Does one girl get left out of recess games, playdates and parties most of the time?  Victim?  Does someone always end up doing the dirty work, carrying the sports equipment, or the books? 

I once watched a group of four boys on the gungle-gym in the playground.  One boy, the smallest, kept getting pushed off.  I was about to intervene when I noticed that he kept coming back, pushing to get on, laughing when he was pushed away.  I don't think he would have appreciated it if I had said anything.  I left instead.  I still think he was being bullied, but he was so eager to have friends and be part of the group that he would put up with almost anything to be included.  To push his way in and get their attention, even negative attention, was more important than walking away and coming back later to play on the gym by himself.

When I was in Grade 8 there were two girls that I was absolutely terrified of.  One was a tiny, skinny girl, the other was tall and lanky.  When they walked by my desk the little one would utter threats, the tall one would just laugh.  I was terrified.  I would never have thought to tell my parents or teachers for fear of the threats becoming real.  I avoided them as much as possible, especially in hallways and outdoors.  At the time I wondered why they hated me so much, but as I reflect I don't think it was at all personal to me . . . and that probably they did this to others too, I just wasn't aware.  They were never in my class after that, so it lasted only a short while.  I honestly don't know what I would have done or felt if it had continued for a longer time period.  I can understand why some are bullied and never tell anyone - they are probably afraid of what the repercussions would be if they did.

I think if there was anything that made me more vulnerable to this taunting it would have been that I was a bit of a loner in the class (my close friends were in other classes), not a lot of self-confidence, and they probably sensed my fear.

Hi Folks

Its late and I'm coming late to this thread so I haven't had a chance to read it all.

I'm posting a letter written by Amanda's mom that throws a bit more light on this sad tragedy. There was a pedophile involved.

God be with her mom and the family.

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2012/10/12/amandas-story-in-her-mothers-wo...

Edit: I just noticed a story re  her father speaking out too and a video.

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2012/10/15/amanda-todds-father-speaks-out-...