Can sex in marriage be misused? Yes! Marital rape happens all the time. People use sex for manipulation, power, control.....

Should we honour the dignity of human beings, including the human beings we are having sex with? Yes! People should not be just about their body parts (for me that even extends to those it is deemed to be just about sex, say prostitutes. They are people not just parts )

Now, the Catholic Church is making a step or leap here. It may not seem big or it may seem too long in the coming, but it is there. They are NOT saying certain types of sex are sins or condemened or should be avoided (big step). They are saying it should result in intercourse.

Do I agree that all acts of intimacy need to end in sexual intercourse? No. I doubt if worded that way they would say all "acts of intimacy" need to end iun copulation. The problem for some people is seeing it as something intimate and not something sexual or something dirty. That extends outside one denomination and into those of no religious allegience. It is often cultural and societal.

I do not have to agree with the Roman Catholic bishops, I am not Catholic. Then again, many Catholics do not agree.

There are a couple of typos in the above post.  That was supposed to be "Pointy hats".

...oh my ...you had to ask SG .....

I shall let chansen answer as I am sure he is dying to.....

Now to the subject .....    There is much that I disagree with concerning statements by the Roman Catholic Church.     I feel that their views on sexuality are way off base.   I too feel that as a group they have lost the credibility in this area and that it will take a lot to get it back.    I know quite a number of Catholics and the vast majority of those ignore these sorts of pronouncements and consider them silly.   However, their devotion to their expression of faith seems unaffected.    Most seem to be kind of sorting the wheat from the chaff.   

Anyways .... thats my experience with those that are part of that denomination....

Hugs

Rita

In my edit, I left out the question that Rita and Chansen address.

I asked, "is there a bishop named Pointy Hats?"

Prior to reading the article, due to chansen's quoting I thought this came form a forum. Reading the link, I saw that it was his sarcasm shining through.

Personally I think we (meaning society) need to quit thinking chaste means celibate and that procreate means making babies or put tab A into slot B.

Chaste is about being moral and celibate is not the only way to be moral and one can be quite immoral while being celibate.

Procreate can be about more than reproduction, making babies and begetting.  It can be about creating or producing.

My wife and I cannot alone, unassisted, in our marital bed create babies. Sexual acts are able to create or produce in other ways. It creates more than babies or a big bang or sex, it creates intimacy, things like love and trust. 

Will we ever recover from being so puritanical? I doubt it.  

"All acts of love and pleasure are my worship"
Charge of the Goddess

You'd think God would have more important things to worry about than how two consenting adults enjoy their intimacy.

Oh well, one more reason for me to steer clear of the RC Church. Not that I needed more. There are aspects of their faith that absolutely speak to me but these kinds of pronouncements just undo what is good about Roman Catholicism in my eyes.

Personally, I think that if both partners are enjoying what is going on and no dishonesty, coercion, or violence is involved, it's all good. Married or not.

Mendalla

So, why are you yapping about it?  Quit boohooing and get on with your life.

Because it's funny.  If you interpret my post as crying, that's just you being bad at interpretation.

..... weeeeellllllllll   maybe because this is a dis-cus-sion forum.... and so we discuss things here?

Or did you think this was the support contact for the eMachines refurbished printer order desk?

I think that this is the type of question that one might ask on a Roman Catholic forum.   

chansen,

wow, the notions attributed to some Canadian bishops remind me of a corporate guy reminding the users of their brand to maintain brand integrity :3  I keep forgetting that corporate values have been so deeply entrenched.

(and thank goodness nature has enabled us toside-step these brand-enforcers with stem cells and enabled us to make stuff like this that will help endless, countless people)

Hi seeler,

It would be interesting to see that conversation unfold.

Still, I don't think the question is necessarily out of line here.  Some folk aren't automatically aware that just because a group of bishops in Canada says X that all Christians in Canada are going to agree with X.

Just as some aren't aware that just because some Christians are literalists that all Christians aren't.

For the record I am with SG one of the chief problems is limited definitions of what celibate and procreative mean.  In that regard the reaction to the pronouncement might be less about what "sex-obsessed" old men are saying than it is about what folk with limited vocabularies are reading.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hasn't the Catholic church always been coming out with this stuff? I remember back in Catholic Scotland I signed up to learn about natural family planning with nurse suport via the phone/letter, and once they found out we were not married they cut me off. I was perplexed, not having come across anything like that before. But they were supporting avoiding getting pregnant, and they were Catholic, so I guess they were forward thinking Catholics!

"God provides for the pleasure of married couples when they are happy with the number of children they already have" or something like that the booklet said. 

These restrictions only apply to married couples.  If you are an unmarried, supposedly celibate, priest then it appears that all sorts of debauchery is tolerated.

I stopped taking the RC church seriously on matters of sexual intimacy a long time ago.  Their credibility is totally shot.

I suppose that's basically my point.  It's like taking foreign policy advice from Sarah Palin.

I also stopped taking the RC church seriously on lots of other matters as well.  But, I digress.

I think this IS a topic for this board. Not because of Catholics saying stuff. It is precisely other faiths DO not. Because Truth be told, the Christian faith has not completely gotten over its Puritanical past.

Do people know what to believe about birth control, oral sex, anal sex, masturbation, pre-marital sex.....? NO! 

What they hear comes FROM those who say masturbation is evil and spew verses about wasted seed. They hear about birth control and stuff from Roman Catholics. They are the ones talking.

Do we hear about a "misuse of sex" in relationships? When in church or by church folks have you heard about date rape, marital rape, using sex as a weapon, using sex as manipulation, that sex should be a consentual, mutual loving experience?

I mean apart from Wondercafe  LOL

I know folks who sat in "marital classes" run by the church and never once was sex even mentioned.

If someone brings the topic to the table, even if I do not agree, I am grateful it is on the table.

seriously.

i'd say the only people who think about sex more than these guys are porn stars. 

well, or teenaged boys

Hey,

someone should send the Vatican a copy of The Pop Up Book of Sex.  Maybe they would be able to comment on it?

I'd love to see the debates between the 'Sex is genital penetration' camp and the 'Sex is whatever turns you on' camp :3

Er, these days can I be on the debating team for "sex is whatever turns you on camp??? 

HA! :3

I speak from experience because my wife (who is older than I) is of the first camp and I am of the second camp.

We both had some enlightenment from a friend of hers who actually made a living showing couples how to be more intimate with each other.  I had always been wary of the word BDSM, thinking it meant a certain thing, but this guy said that the pain and the items used are just tools to get people to get out of their heads.  And that made me think of people like Dr. Timothy Leary, who was very big on being positive and, yes, drugs for a while; but he eventually said that the drugs were just tools, not the ends, to achieve the understanding, among others, that positiveness was a real thing.

So I guess this all fits in with my notion that I live in my worldview, my BS, and that is my entire world, living inside myself.  And that I have learned methods, ways, of being able to get outside of that worldview and be able to see other worldviews.  Try them on.  "Get out of one's head".  G_d is real.  The Christian G_d is real.  The Christian G_d isn't real.  What does real mean?  Satan is a cool guy.  And so forth.

I personally agree that sex within marriage should be all about the ultimate expression of love between the consenting partners. It should be intimate, emotional, intellectual, physical, and spiritual. It should strengthen and complete the marriage bond. I believe it should be unitive and pleasurable. I do not agree that it must be procreative.

Mmm, that's a lot of "shoulds" .

Howzabout just going with the flow?

What do you mean?

I just want to be a judge.

Can I tell my wife I must engage in research to formulate my arguments in this debate?

You got any qualifications?

I met my wife in the shower....

Given the appalling incidence of domestic violence in Canada, particularly where women are the victims, I'd say this is a HIGHLY topical area of concern.

Relationship is something that few people seem to be especially good at... if we look at stats for relationship breakdown and under-parented kids.

While the Catholic concern may be worded in "stupid old fart" terms, and come in the context of some draconian attitudes, the whole issue of of sexuality, relationship, family, violence and social values is a neglected timebomb.

A lot of it has to do with our notions of sexuality, and our society is ridden with distortions of it. For many, sexuality seems to mean no more than recreational drug-taking; for many it is wholly self-focused; for many, nonconformity brings out violent fury. Sexuality, like violence, is used as entertainment and as a sales pitch... and, where it turns out badly in family contexts, kids are as much the victims as the partners. 

What I see in many of the protestations above is a whole lot of knee-jerk anti-Catholic bigotry, emotional denial and incredible immaturity... its tone shames many of the posters.

I'd really like to see this whole issue discussed -- as some above have tried to initiate -- rather than reacted against... or are too few of WC's posters up to challenges like that?

I did not read the article chansen quotes but from his exerpt, I don't have a big issue with this.

The RC Church has issued a fairly tame statement and what i take from it is that we are to view sexual acts as important, loving and committed.

there are worse things to say.

I also have issues with people who say things in line with     ...... how can a bunch of old men give advice......

You don't need to have experience something to give advice.  Do you need to be divorced to offer counselling, a murderer to offer help, ....... 

I don't like many of the positions the Vatican takes on sexuality but the idea that married sex should be intimate, loving and supportive seems like pretty good advice to me. 

Do I think it will affect any of the degenerate wife beaters or husband beaters out there?  no

Similar thoughts have crossed my mind in the west versus Moslems debate.

There is this huge assumption in the media etc that living in a western democracy is a great way to live.

In many ways it is - but there is still a lot that seems so wrong IMO.

As Mike mentions above, their is ample evidence of our distorted views on sexuality - hardly something that others would welcome into their societies.

ya know, you had me up until this point.

There are real, practical reasons why religious authorities would want to control people's sexuality.