Damn, spelt it wrong - feminist.

crazyheart, I kind of like that, 'feminest' -- a really comfy (and practical) bed :3

Self declared feminists probably differ somewhat in their understanding of the term.  Do you call yourself a feminist, Crazyheart? 

I am quite interested in today's young women who say there is no need for feminism any longer.  

So to answer your question, crazyheart, I think that when a woman self-identifies as feminist, what she is doing is saying "I am going to treat women based on who they are, what they can and cannot do, etc etc and not based on stereotypes.  Empirically.  And I recognize that I am part of a long tradition, that includes men."

Not all women are feminists.  Not all feminists are women.  Not all of what is called feminism is feminism (ie the minority that practice androphobia).

EDIT:  change "...going to treat women based on..." to "...going to treat people based on..."

Crazyheart - when I think of a feminist I think of someone who supports equal rights for women.  I call myself a feminist.  

When I hear that someone is a feminist I wince then roll my eyes. I think it means they hate men, that they consider women to be superior to men.

I very much consider myself to be a feminist. It means I support women's rights and equality very strongly. It means I'm "pro-woman". I have always been feminist, but feel that way even more strongly since I have a daughter.

I don't like the term. It seems to imply that women don't have equal rights. I see no evidence of that. If anything, I find women being pushed to pretend to be the same as men when we are not. To hold full time work, and raise the children. I think there's something to be said for the male provider, and female nurturer. So I find self described feminists as somewhat angry, pushy people who feel they've been walked on. Maybe they were, and now they're fighting over it, I don't know. It's not like we can't take any job we like, be prime minister, a doctor, an astronaut...whatever. We have the vote, we can own property, get degrees, use birth control, what is missing?

I don;t believe in feminism I believe that there are some things that men can do better than women and somethings that women can do better than men. We were made to be partners to complement each otherj.

As a self-professed male feminist, I agree with Innawhimsey -- some female feminists support the rights of women to have equal treatment and opportunities as men, while some are really against men.  I believe all people should have equal opportunity to be the people they were meant and want to be, men and women.  This includes equality in income for similar work, equal respect and power, equal self-respect. 

To me it seems that many young women have been deceived into believing sexual promiscuity, readily being available for exploitation by men,  for them is the same as equality with men.

For those who believe there is already equality between men and women, I suspect they have been lucky enough to live in social circles where there is at least the appearance of that being true.  For most women, to gain equality with men in their field, they usually need to be at least 10% if not 40 or 50% more competent than the men with whom they have equality.

A partial aside but it right ticks me off when people assume I can't do something as well or would want to do something simply because I am male.  i.e.  I want to have kids and be a part of their upbringing.  When I take care of them I am not ****Ing babysitting i will be their parent just as their mother will be their parent and not a baby sitter.

*phew*

Peace

Joel

For those who are against feminists, it might be good to remember that it was the feminists in the last century or so that brought you your equal rights to education, employment, owing property in your own name, looking after your own money (or even having your own money).  

It's feminists (both male and female) who continue to guard these rights, and to struggle for real equality where female children are equally valued and have equal opportunities to participate in sports, and to get an education, and women have equal opportunities to study for and compete for the job they want and salaries are ajusted to equal pay for equal work.   

And when somebody decides that it is better for children to have one parent in the home, it is the feminists who say:  'why presum that parent will always be the mother?   why not the father?   or why not each parent cut down their working hours outside the home from 40 or 50 to 20 or 25 so that they both have an equal opportunity to develop their careers and to spend time with their children?

And without feminiists who is going to stand shoulder to shoulder with women from other countries where simply learning to read is a crime?

I am still reading and the jury is still out. Thank you for the replies.

I agree that women of today owe a debt to those in the past, men and women, who fought for our equality.

they fought for girls to be taught they can tackle anything they want.

But now i think the opposite thing happens often.  Women who want to nurture and raise children are looked down on often by other women.

And I think there is a great deal of stress on all sides related to how we live our lives.

I don't like the term feminist

There is a very interesting and controversial (also touching and disturbing) article written about this subject by "feminist" writer Susan Faludi in Harpers Magazine a few months ago.

The article explores the whole question asked in the original post in detail.  The article is entitled American Electra and appears in the October 2010 issue.  The following is a link to the article ...

http://harpers.org/archive/2010/10/page/0031

I believe in equal opportunities and respect for girls and boys, women and men. I am extremely grateful for all of the many courageous women and supportive men who have spoken, written, marched, challenged and who have paved the way for women of my generation and younger to vote, to be allowed to continue to teach after marriage, to receive maternity benefits, to work in previously male only positions, to see some improvements in salary and work conditions etc. etc. However, in my opinion there is a long way to go for genuine equality for many girls/women in many parts of our country and world.

I think that we still need feminists - and I am proud to call myself one.   And I love men!

Feminism still has its place. I support and practice giving women equal treatment in both private and public circles, but I know the world isn't all there yet. Having people to advocate for that equal treatment is a value to all, not just the women. So I'm with seeler on that point.

However, there are those rather strident sorts in the movement, as there are in any movement, who insist on making it an "us versus them" battle and in trying to cut down men rather raising up women. They do not, in my opinion, have a place and may be part of the reason that some, perhaps many, young women are becoming disenchanted with the movement. As I say, there are such types in all political and social movements so it's not really a feminist problem, rather a human one that happens to affect the feminist movement.

Mendalla

One University of California women's studies professor is on record as saying that the future of feminism lies in "the brave new world of Gaga girliness".  The non-objectified (and difficult to objectify), granola eating, Birkenstock wearing, earth mother feminist stereotype is outmoded.  Now, apparently, the best way to recognize a feminist is by her fishnet stockings.  Betty Friedan is no doubt spinning in her grave.

Simple answer for me is some one who is interested in Woman's rights and issues. And that those issues should not be dominated by discussions about children and family. Women are about more than that.

Back in the 80's at AST there was a 3 three position for a radical feminist theologian. There was really only one and every three years it changed. You were given the label and expected to comment on every feminist issue at teh school from language to life expereince.

I was informed shortly into my 1st year that I was the new XXXX who had held the psoition before me. By 3rd year it was getting old. I remember coming out of one call to be counered by a couple of classmates to see if I was ok. Why because I had not jump all over another student for a comment he made. When I asked why they didn't was told it was my job.

My life experience is one where during my school years I lived in a female house hold. Single parent. only child. Learned to do everything for myself. Never learn that there were male female roles and it has always been hard for me to understand the division. Have lived on my own for over 30 years so again not used to seeing things in terms of mens role women role.

Do get feed up with the sterotype of women as being interested in children and family. Never wanted kids and have less and less interest in being around them or hearing about them as I get older

I would have to say these dadys I am more of a singleist. Single no kids. Radical in that I get feed up with all the family, children partner stuff.

There are happy health singles out there who so not think their lives are less than because there are no children in it and they do not have a partner.

 A self-declared feminist is likely someone who has encountered discrimination and understands the importance of continuing the work towards equality.....this person may be male or female.

Although we may think that equality has been reached, in many many circles there is still discrimination....This discrimination occurs in places where it is presumed that a woman of child bearing years is going to take leave and should not have a position.

Do I hope the discussion has shifted...I would hope so after 40 years of work; however, given some of  the comments on this thread, one can see that there is still a lot of work to be done.

Hopefully no one minds me dragging this old thread up.

I thought about this when crazyheart first posed the question, but looking back I see I never responded.

I was a child feminist.  I could do whatever the boys did.  In school, sometimes we had a few books to select and were put into a group based on the selection.  I didn't do what many of the girls did, pick the same one as my friends.  I just went with what interested me, and was usually in a group of boys.  My childhood feminist notion was enthusiastic but immature.  I think many girls who have parents who encourage them in non-traditional activities and who excel in math and sciences had similar convictions.

As I got older, I still believed in equal rights, but wouldn't have called myself a feminist.  Things had improved, As I entered university, the 'feminists' were more about just equal rights in my eyes.  They had a certain hippy-artsy style, were into indy music, wanted a womyns centre and handed out condoms.  Some were men haters.  I was friends with some of them, but my style was mainstream and I was quite happy with who I was while also admiring those friends with a different style. I saw some sexism, but nothing that pushed me to declare myself a feminist.

Now, the older I get the more discrimination I see.  It's not just a problem in other less developed countries, I see serious issues right here.  I get annoyed more quickly, when I was younger I honestly thought society was past some things that haven't been resolved.  I haven't seen improvements in the last decade.  Some of this is probably just life experience, but some of it is a lack of progress.  While I always have been for equal rights, I feel the need to label myself as a feminist more with every incident I see.  I feel a responsibility to speak out.  Not calling myself a feminist is no longer an option for me.

I too was a baby feminist.  I wanted everyone to have equal education, political, social, employment and ecomonic rights (et al)  EVERYONE and that included women. I was little when my mom took the day off work for the Women's Strike for Equality and I recall the ERA stuff. At four, I was horrified to learn you could pay women less than men for the same job. It did not make sense then and it does not now.

Wanting equal rights for women in university does not assume every woman should be or is going for a degree. It means if they want to. For me, decisions made by women were theirs. It meant I never thought women should head to work or that is assumed they would want to. They are individuals.

Feminism is why I got active and why I worked in domestic violence.

I distanced myself from the movement itself because it mainly represented white women and that went against my equality gene. I also knew the accusations against the group was they were all man-hating dykes and I was queer (note that I adore men and most my friends are male) so I could be a liability or feed stereotypes.

I do not believe the genders are fundamentally different as it relates to traditional roles in society. I believe in people finding what they want and it having nothing or little to do with what washroom they use.

Radicals also exists in any group.

Now, I was not a bra burning feminist, I never wore one.

I love the descriptions of women compared to men in the workforce.

He speaks his mind.

She is a bitch

He has presence

She is intimidating

He has a lot on his plate today

PMS

He .....

She...

I am glad this topic has been resurrected. I think feminism is even more important today with all the anti-female stuff going on south of the border.....trans-vaginal ultrasounds, issues related to abortion rights, and all of that. I suspect (know?) that I became a feminist when I was about 8 or 9, when my friend and I could not ride the paddle boats, but her YOUNGER brother could.....because he was a boy! WTF???

I am not anti-male. I believe that anyone should be able to live according to their gifts and strengths, and not be held back by gender or sex. I recently heard the term "familialism" ....meaning the "ideal" family is the white middle class, heterosexual married couple with kids. Families come in all shapes and sizes, and to shape policy based on the traditional family is familialism. 

Anne Bishop has it right in her book "Becoming Allies", my "ism" isn't better than yours. Let's work together to get rid of the isms. 

I consider myself a feminist, I believe in gender equality in the workplace, in the home, in the church. I also support non-traditional gender roles in terms of childcare and work division. It's nice to see more men taking more of an active role in day to day caring for kids. The diapers, the cooking, the parent teacher meetings. That wasn't as common when I was growing up... Not just nice to see...but about time we get used to it.

The quote - of course there is a quote! - that never grows old and sums it up best for me was said by Rebecca West, a woman who watched the world of women change dramatically in her nearly 90 years....

I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.

On a more serious note, what is happening to our American sisters in the form of state sanctioned assault makes me realize that feminism as a successful movement has never been achieved.  That the same people who view a hijab as a danger to women have no qualms about forcing women to undergo unwanted medical procedures to promote their own agenda is occuring in the Land of the Free should be an affront to thinking people everywhere.

The irony is not lost on this woman, that it was a male cartoonist who led the most effective charge but then maybe he is a self declared feminist.

I've been trying for some time to develop a lifestyle that doesn't require my presence.
      Gary Trudeau, Doonsbury

Pinga thanks for those examples, sometimes it is subtle and unconscious and sometimes we think whatever work there is to do has been done.

I have a few favourite quotes and LBmuskoka picked the one that can be posted.  LOL

My favourite and one I use frequently is full of colourful language and from Jessica Valenti's book, Full Frontal Feminism. In it she asks an answers what the worst things you can call a woman are and then asks and answers what the worst things you can call a man are. Then she says "Notice anything? The worst thing you can call a girl is a girl. The worst thing you can call a guy is a girl. Being a woman is the ultimate insult. Now tell me that’s not royally ___ed up." (Edit mine)

This is the other one that I like.

"There are very few jobs that actually require a penis or vagina.  All other jobs should be open to everybody."  ~Florynce Kennedy

Can you tell I like "tell it like it is"?

When you were younger did you have your parents say  " Don't............. Girls don't do that" Geez, I got myself in more trouble that way.

Not that I recall, thank goodness.

Looking back at what I wrote, I think I can give my definition of a feminist (if someone wishes to call themselves one who does fit it though, I have no problem with that).

A feminist is someone who is annoyed or angry with current sexist attitudes and practices. They feel the need to act and speak out.

To me it goes beyond just believing men and women should be treated equally.  It is acting when that doesn't occur.

I think I'm more of a humanist than a feminist - equality for all!

I grew up with grossly unfair inequities. I rebelled against the endless rules that only applied to girls.  I tried to model and teach my own kids a better way.   One of them has a non-sexist family life but the others have households that revolve around the 'man job/woman job' circle.   

Sometimes I wonder whether it is possible to EVER get the message across to everybody that we are all capable of doing most of the things that need doing on a regualr basis.   Like housework, childcare, elder care etc.  I hate hearing young working moms describing the at home workload they choose to carry - what the heck is wrong with TELLING your guy that you need some help if he is going to have clean clothes and food to eat?

I chose to be an at home parent and deal with the problems with low income (we were below the poverty line when our kids were all in school).  At the other end of life we live below the poverty line because I wasn't socking away savings/pension rights. . He got advantages too - running the home was my job so we didn't have arguments about who was responsible for making sure there was food in the house, clothes ready to wear.    I was criticised for my decision - that my partner supported.  I acknowledged that it was important for all of us to have choices, and some people feel a need to have a paid job just as we felt a need to have someone devoting themselves to a high quality family life. 

No easy answers that are ideal for everyone.

Crazyheart, I was told that a lady sits with her legs together, if that counts. I always wanted to be a lady.

When I was a kid, and wanted to be a pilot or astronaut, my Dad didn't say girls don't do that, but he did discourage me. I think he just didn't want to pay for it. Later on, when I was 30, he told me being a pilot is a young, MAN's game, meaning, not for mothers with toddlers. I was mad then. I was hoping in the back of my mind he'd help me pay for lessons. I still want to fly somethng, and vow to learn sometime, if not a plane, an ultralight. My dad was a pilot.

When my boy was a baby in the stroller, I went to the Victoria Career Fair, wanting to set my life on some kind of money and fullfillment path, and I stopped at the flying school table. I got looks of disgust, and dissapointment from women around me, but the young woman sat at the table eagerly and sympathetically gave me the leaflets with an encouraging smile. I left feeling embarrased and poor, and probably cried later on. No, I couldn't afford lessons. But I drove to the airport and watched planes take off and land several times that year.

I'm not the best driver though, so I wonder if I wouldn't be a very good pilot, and you have to be, to be safe. I asked a bush pilot about me getting training, and he too tried to discourage me, saying how hard the work is and how expensive.

I still stand by what I said in my original post though. But I have discovered there are two kinds of feminists, people who believe in equal rights, and "androgenous feminists" people who believe there is no fundamental difference between men and women beyond anatomy. I believe in equal rights, but I don't think we are necesarily equally well suited to every job. I think men, overall, think and act differently to women, and that we're not the same. I seek a complimentary balance rather than women in every job a man does, and men bottle feeding babies and changing as many nappies as women do. 

Elanor, while I agree that there are differences between men and women your opinion on roles makes me sad.  The individual differences within one sex are greater than the differences between the sexes.

Maybe there truly are more women than men who would prefer to take care of a baby.  Whether or not that's innately true, I'm not sure; as you can't simply elminate the influence of society.  Even if it is true, there are still men who would prefer that, and women who do not.  I don't think childcare needs to be 50/50, but there shouldn't be any judgement or discrimination for a dad who wants to stay at home.  Complimentation is much more important within a couple, or relationships than it is between the sexes overall.

I am not sure I did too much. That may be partially due to the fact that I was sort of girly girl, and kind of accepted some of the rules. The incident I cited above certainly qualifies in some way. We could not go on the paddle boats because we were "too young" But my friend's younger brother could go on them. Clearly sexist in our views!

I think I must have accepted some of the subtle "good girls......" stuff, and avoided some of the other things. To some degree, I regret that. Would I have made different choices if I'd included the "Male" choices? Of course we will never know that. I am glad that young girls today seem to have more choices. At the same time though, the apparent anti-female stuff going on is very alarming!

No need to be sad Chemgal, cause I agree with your post. Yes, the differences within a sex are greater than the differences between sexes. I don't judge a willing stay at home dad badly. I think it's kinda cute. I just think that where there's the choice, the woman should nurse the baby rather than express milk so Dad can feed baby. I think nursing is a woman thing. And Morris Dancing is a man thing, but that's another topic.

I illiminate the influence of society though, through looking at the past, and what has been natural throughout time, and also the scientific research that has been done. That half hour clip I re-posted called "taking sex differences seriously" explains it where I can't very well. I'd like to know what you'd think of that.

I wish I could share my whole story with you, then maybe you wouldn't be sadened, and you would see that I'm maybe not as anti-feminist as I sound to you. My husband did as much baby care as I wanted him to do, which was a fair bit, except the late night feedings, and he's a very modern guy, in touch with his feminine side, proud to carry baby in the snuggli. He's always played with our son more than I have. He'll even hold my purse when I ask him to, and he does half the cooking. But anyway, we don't have to see eye to eye on it. Maybe I'm jaded, maybe I'm in a passing faze of  traditionalism, maybe I just want life to be safer right now, maybe it's how I was raised.

I kept my maiden name, and had an untraditional marriage registration, no wedding.

I used to think my best friends ambition to be a mother and housewife was lame and old fashioned. I don't think so now.

How do you feel about Jane Austen type stories?

Maybe if you feel like checking out my female role models, you'll understand me better. I do aim to be understood.

Adrienne Rich died today

I think that we all want to be understood.  And we all want to be the best that we can be.  

Many of the barriers that had prevented women from being/achieving all that they wanted have come down in this last century.  I don't think I would have survived well had I lived three hundred years ago.   

That being said, we still have a ways to go.  A recent article in Macleans magazine suggests that 1/3 of women now out earn men, and men's egos are having a difficult time with that.  And while women are in the work force in numbers greater than ever before, they still shoulder the greater burden of household and caregiving responsibilites.

I think that most of us would prefer not to use the word feminist, but still seek fairness and equality. 

Meet a true feminist ...

Who unlocks the chains.

America's First Feminist

Hi Baylacey,

Welcome to Wondercafe!

I'm a fan of equality for women: equal access to educaton, equal pay for equal work, equal rights, etc.  But I am not one of those people who is in favor of viewing women as nothing more than smaller weaker men with breasts.  There are valid differences between the sexes.

I also do not see women as smaller weaker men with breasts. Wow! I so do not see it that way. Just as I do not see men as taller stronger women with penises.

I do, however, believe there is a spectrum from princess to knight and both men and women can land anywhere on that spectrum.

I also believe many differences are societal and cultural.

There are also different BS (belief systems) of Feminism and whichever one you are a part in determines such things as if there are indeed differences between the sexes, if the differences are important or not, the nature of equality, some even break up people into 'sex' and 'gender'...

Here's the wikipedia article on the varying tribes/BS of Feminism.

did It mean control and double income in a household and inflation to match,  fast forward now it is required to 'make ends meet' for many,? how did that work out for the family unit from the 'feminist' perspective?

what is the divorce rate now?

I do not think the divorce rate can be accurately assessed. I know several women my grandmother's age who stayed in bad marriages because they had no other option. That is not a valid assessment of "family values".

did It mean control and double income in a household and inflation to match, fast forward now it is required to 'make ends meet' for many,? how did that work out for the family unit from the 'feminist' perspective?

 

Sounds like another good reason for feminism......sounds like women are being blamed. Yet again.

Please, tell me I am misinterpretting this.

Great post BayLacey, Thanks for that.

I'll just say a couple more things,  prompted by BayLacey's pos, then 'll probably duck out:

That I think it's good for men and their self worth, to earn a living and provide for their families. And that at the other extreme of the same situation, men seem to be getting lazier in the understanding that women can just as well support the family, and our culture that says they can, or should, which I don't think is good for women, unless they want to and are allready happily devoted to their career and don't wish to give it up.

Thanks Rowan. I agree with that too.

Inanna, Thanks for the BS giggle. ; )

I also agree that it isn't good for women to have to work as well as the husband, and I have exerienced that myself. Both working opposite shifts and never seeing each other, and using daycare. Both of which plain suck. A living wage should be paid to any man with a family. Workers used to fight for that in the old days, now it is accepted, that the wife also has to take up a job, and pay to have someone else care for her child.

It seems to me, when it comes to jobs, the person doing it should be chosen based on their attributes, not their gender (or race, sexual preference, etc.).

I work with children - a field that is predominantly filled by female workers. My particular place of employment, however, where I work it's currently almost a 50/50 split. The reason for this is simple - my boss hires the best person for the job, regardless of gender. My male co-workers are wonderful role models. Some of our children come from single-parent families where they reside solely with their mother. Each day they go to elementary school where they are taught by a women. Often their only regular contact with a man is their after-school care leader, so these relationships become very important to the children - particularly the young boys. In my particular role, I work closely with one of the men and we often inadvertantly challenge stereotypes - he likes to lead activities like baking and crafts, whereas I'm much more comfortable leading active games and taking the kids on adventures. We're a good match!

if it is a mater of blame, i dont think so, i think fear and greed are at the root

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