When I say "learned to laugh with them" I don't mean at other nerds. I mean I made myself funny. I think a lot of funny people are funny for that reason.

My brother died when I was six and he was eleven. He had been afflicted with childhood cancer. For years every morning at school there was a gang of kids waiting for me,  telling me how bad my parents were for letting him smoke. Ofcourse he didn"t smoke, he was only a child with an awful disease.  Never had a thought of "getting back at them",  just absorbed it all.

I was a poor kid from 'across the tracks', big for my age,  poorly dressed, with a perpetual head cold that resulted in nasal breathing, sniffing, and occasionally blowing that sounded like a steam engine.  I was the kid who wanted to play ball but who had no coordination.  I was smart, but not smart enough to know that no-one likes the kid with her hand up with all the answers.  I was the kid who didn't know how to play it cool but who would do almost anything for a friend. 

And I went to a tough school - six grades in one room with an overworked, under-qualified teacher.  Most of the kids were older than me.  One boy punched me ever time I passed him on my way to my seat.  His older brother pulled up my skirt to show my grey, home-made bloomers.  Other kids tripped me.   A girl two years older than me beat me up, or chase me all the way home - calling me names, throwing snowballs or rocks.  I remember running across in front of a moving train to get away from her and then being called 'crazy' for risking my life like that.  But because we lived near each other she would sometimes play with me when no one else was available so I sucked up to her and considered her my best friend.

I was the last picked when teams were chosen for softball every recess and noon-hour.  I chased balls all around the outfield, but somehow it was never my turn to bat.  

How did I cope?  I tried various things.  I let other kids copy my work.  As we grew older I sometime wrote essays or short stories for them.  They thanked me but that didn't mean they would chum around with me at noon-hour or choose me as a partner.  I became a clown.  Since they seemed to enjoy laughing at me anyway - I hammed it up and became the class clown.  To this day I can't resist a joke or a wittism - which sometimes backfired when someone would take me seriously and think that I really was the blumbleing idiot I played.  

But I also continued in highschool when the other girls my age were dropping out to get married and have babies (not necessarily in that order).  I graduated, took the train and moved away to a big city in another province.  I got a job, earned money, took university courses, read books (not just Danielle Steele).  

the boy who pulled up my skirt died of alcoholism in his 40s.  His brother lives in a near-by town.  On the rare occasions when we meet he is polite and friendly.  when I reminded him of how he had hit me he got embarassed and mumbled "that was kid stuff" and I haven't mentioned it since.  The girl I thought was my friend is also dead of cigerettes and alcohol.    Others (the ones who were bystanders or indifferent) now treat me with friendliness or respect.  they seem unaware of how miserable my childhood was. 

Somehow I don't remember my older sister or my brother ever sticking up for me, or a teacher or other adult ever intervening. 

And I think it has affected me much of my life.  I tend to be suspicious of people - to hold back about revealing too much too soon, and to avoid getting too close.  I am shy and hesitant about joining an informal group or situation, or even speaking to a salesperson in a store.  I think that I often come across as abrupt.  And I still joke around a lot.

That's pretty tough Seeler. My heart goes out to you. It's somehow re-assuring to know how they turned out in the end.

Audrey, I'm sorry to hear that.

Let's see, shall we. Mangling my name (Davey-Wavey). Taunting me with the accusation that I was gay (I'm not but it's left me with a great deal of empathy for those who are). Trying to manipulate me into potentially embarrassing situations. Some physical stuff, though beatings usually only happened when I fought back.Terrorizing me by chasing and threatening without actually going the final step to actual violence.

How I dealt with it? Became introverted and socially withdrawn. Didn't socialize much outside a small, close circle. No dances. No girlfriends (which was, of course, a bit of a death spiral since that was then used as proof I was gay). I ended when I left high school, though I did find things improved in the senior years. Even started flirting a bit with the girls though no real action. I guess some of the hardcore jerks didn't go all the way to Grade 13 or finally grew up. Still, there was some even in that last year. This is why I enjoyed university so much. No bullying to speak of, studying what interested me rather than a set curriculum, and a developing social life that ended up with a girlfriend (later wife).

Mendalla

I ran into a few bullies, including one teacher (who bullied whole parts of this class).  But I do not dwell on them.  

More recently, I had a bully boss.  Fortunately for me, there was some kind of department reshuffle and he got shuffled out.  I don't give him much thought either.  To hell with them.

Maybe that's why my first boyfriend hooked up with me, to avoid the gay accusation. I don't know if that was a taunt of his, but he did write other people's homework for them. I didn't know that. I just thought he was cute, nice, and accessable cause he only hung out with us girls.

That's upsetting about the beatings. I remember the occasional tussle between boys at school. Once some boys were plannign to beat up an introverted guy I liked. It was set for after school. I went just incase I could do anything to help him, or at least sympathise. He didn't turn up. I was relieved. I never thought he was uncool. He was the coolest in my book: artistic, good looking, quiet, bad. Well anyway...

I bet things would have been better for you at my school Mendalla. I think it was a pretty nice school. I have been in touch with my first boyfriend recently, and he also thought it was a pretty nice school and we were lucky to go there. He had it real easy as a gay guy.

Did you do folk dancing in school Mendalla? I think it was wonderfully benneficial in getting kids to touch each other, you had to hold everybody's hand, and work together to create something fun and beautiful. We danced in grades 6, 7 and 8.

I had a friend in grades 11/12 who my friend and I called Frankie-wanky. We stopped when he said he didn't like it, but we only meant it affectionately. In fact I kissed him at grad.

For me it was mostly verbal - teasing and taunting me mostly about my physical appearance (I was a tall, gawky kid who was a bit of a loner at school). Sometimes kids would be more physical - things like constantly invading my personal space and, when the teachers weren't looking, pushing or pinching me. I dealt with it by making friends outside of school. The bullying didn't stop until I learned how to fight back.

I actually had a dream on this topic last night. In my dream I ran into someone I had gone to high school with. In high school he hadn't been a bully, actually he was a pretty nice kid, but in my dream he had developed a bit of a mean streak in adulthood and tried to bully me. I stood up to him and told him exactly what I thought of what he was trying to do and that it simply was not going to work. I forced him to talk to me like an equal instead of like some piece of dirt.

EO, To hell with them. I know what you mean. Last time I saw my main girl bully, we were 20, I was not about to forgive her, au contraire. I let her know she had done me real ill by my coldness. Now though, I think she may be a better person. I would love to get her appology now that I'm thinking about it. I don't dwell on any of it though. It's dusty ancient history. Just recent threads got me thinking.

Awesome dream Somegal! Way to go! You tell 'em! I've had dreams like that too.

Yes, we had dance as part of gym class. Let's not go there.

Mendalla

I was neglected. I was uninvited. I was unwelcome. This was during high school.

I'm still not over it. Bitterness and resentment over it can still bubble to the surface. Say, for example, I get invited to a group get-together and then I believe everyone there is treating me like I don't exist.

I think it's important to reflect on these things, how they affected us, and how they affected who we are today, come to terms with it. It's also good for people who did any bullying to read and see these things we have burried deep inside us, also good for young people who may still today be experiencing bullying. It's a big issue.

It brings to mind three videos...

...one awfully serious, warning of the extent to which the feelings of the bullied can go, where something drastic seems to be the only way to get back some personal power, which is a terrible tradgedy and should never happen. Nicely sung by this very talented young man I've been following on Youtube, this great cover of Pumped Up Kicks!

...two, one I've posted before, but need to put in this thread: Digging in the Dirt (to find the places we got hurt) By Peter Gabriel.

and three: funny, because this is just so great. You'll love it! : D

OK! After that last one, can we all do a snorty geek laugh!?! lol! I just did!

I was last to picked for sports teams in high school.  Well, perhaps that was because I was not good at sports.  I don't care anymore!

Oh, not being good in sports is the given reason, but the problem is that if you're in a high school that places a high value on a winning culture in sports (like mine, which had a fairly good football team during the time I was there), being in that position can definitely used as a form of bullying.

Mendalla

Hi Elanorgold,

Name-calling most often.  Threat of physical violence is second and lastly physical violence.

Most of the name calling (dummy or smelly or ugly) is something I can do something about.  I don't think I'm dumb.  If I've been active I can smell most times I'm odour neutral unless you have the sensitivity of a dog and I really don't care if other guys don't find me handsome, at least one woman finds me attractive.

The threats of physical violence eventually came to an end.  Adolescence was somewhat generous and my reputation as a wrestler indicated that I could hold my own physically.  The guy who tormented me most died about five years back apparently if you bully your liver too much there are consequences to pay.  I've met one other "bully" from school who never really gave me much trouble.  He picked on my friends mostly.  He appears to be a nice enough guy.

I did physically bump into an elementary school bully at the end of my high-school years.  Surging hormones gave me several inches on him and probably 20 to 30 pounds over him.  It was a blustery day and we were both walking with head down to avoid the weather.  The timing was such that we rounded a corner right into each other.  The physics behind the meeting saw him suffer more from the energy transfer than I did and he went down  in a heap.

He got up cursing and screaming at me without even knowing who I was.  I recognized him right away and was ready for what I had expected would be physical confrontation. Then he sized me up and when he made eye contact he immediately shut-up.  He knew who I was and that I had enough grudges that if I were to settle them with payment out of his hide it would be a long and painful afternoon.

I asked him if he was okay, he mumbled that he was.  I told him I was in a hurry and if he had nothing more to say to me I would like to get past him and be on my way.  He stepped aside and we each went on our way.

I rarely if ever think about any of those who did bully me.  As noted above, I see one on the street on the odd occasion.  He is polite in greeting and I respond to that in kind.  I can't remember the name of my first bully and I'm sure that he doesn't look much like he did when we were in grade three.  I might pass him several times a week without even knowing it.

Once the means to get back was in my grasp revenge would have been a waste of my time.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I was bullied for me weight in grades 3-5. I think I had a kind of werid bullied expierence. I still had a lot of friends, was never left out of anything, wasn't the last one to be picked for sports etc but there were a group of three or four boys who would tease me.

In grade five I finally got up the nerve to tell my mom. One of the kids had broken my bike helemet so I really had no choice. She made the kids parents pay for a new one form me. That's when I told her about everything else. She told me to tell them to stop (tried it) she told me to tell the teacher (tried it and only did something for a day or two), she told me to tell the principle (also tried that but only stopped it temporarily) so finally my mom told me to punch the main bully in the nose. The next time he said something to me punched him in the nose and gave him a bloody nose, that's when the bullying stopped. That same guy dropped out of school in grade eight and in grade nine was sent to jail, I don't know what happened to any of the others.

That bullying has made me, and will probably continue to make me very self conscious about myself. I'm getting better but I don't have the highest self esteem sometimes and especially  not the best body image of myself. I'm not sure if anyone, including my mom, knows how much that bullying has affected me...

When I was in Grade 8 there were two girls in my class that always walked by my desk - they were friends.  One of them was really tall and one of them was really tiny.  The tiny one always mumbled or mouthed things to me as she walked by my desk.  Things like "you are gonna die" . . . "i'm gonna kill you", etc.  I never took the threats seriously as in that she actually would - I just kind of felt she was trying to scare me or intimidate me.   I honestly don't know if I was the only one they did that to, or if I just thought I was the only one.  Perhaps they did it to others.  To the best of my knowledge I never did anything to encourage it as I never hung around them . . . and after they started that I avoided them to no end, especially the little one.

I never ever told anyone - not my parents, not my teachers, not any of my friends . . . I just kept it to myself.

Morning Calm, Thank you for your elaboration. This is exactly what I'm saying, how it has affected us today, continues to affect us sometimes. It's all layers upon layers as we live our lives, and those early memories are close to the center.

EO & Mendalla: I was picked last because I hated sports and participated as little as possible, so it makes sence that I was picked last! But it was the feeling of rejection that hurt. However, when it came to high jump I could do that! At least, until they were all watching and expecting me to do it well! Then I was nervous and full of self doubt!  I also got much better at hitting the ball in baseball, and started to be chosen more like 5th to last! I had good hand-eye co-ordination. I dropped out of sports as soon as I could, so Sr High I had no sports. Hoorah! Gym was the first class I ever skipped too.

RevJohn: I think that's fortuitous about the corner turning physics energy transfer. A good way to end it. I didn't mean cold blooded revenge, just standing up for yourself, standing your ground. I remember a couple of the nerdy boys I knew getting into wrestling, and that winning them some respect. The whole idea of nerd/popular fizzled out when I went into grade 11, in Sr High, as we all settled into our various niches. I didn't see or hear about any bullying there.

Thanks Bethany, for your tale. I think your mother gave you the right advice. Wow about him going to jail. Shows what sort of person he had become. I also sometimes still feel self concious, because of elementary school, but a lot of good stuff happened thereafter, to give me confidence, and it's also good not to be overconfident. Even Claudia Schiffer was/is shy because of the other kids treatment of her at school. She was one of my role models! : )

Wow Beloved, That is scarey. Those nasty little bitches! Kids can be wild beasts eh! Makes you wonder what caused that kind of behaviour. Must have been something at home... There was a tiny popular girl in my class too. Funny how the dynamics work, they seem to have nothing to do with reality, but I suspect everything to do with homelife.

I always felt that if my child were being bullied I would homeschool him at the drop of a hat. Why keep a kid in school if they are being emotionally wounded there?

My daughter dealt with one case of bullying.  She was about 10.  Two older girls, Grade 8 or so (they were at the same middle school), blocked her and her friend on a pathway that led from school to home.  The older girls would not let them through.

My daughter was indignant.  "Of all the nerve!  They had no right to do that!"   She was not so much looking for comfort as just telling me about it.  I agreed they had no right to do that.

But she already had a plan.   She recognized one of the girls and was planning to report her to the school principal the next day.   She told me about it later.   She and the principal found at least one of the girls at her locker, at which point the girl hissed at her "I am going to get you!"

But she never did and the bullying episode was never repeated.   I do not think my daughter would have resorted to physical violence (although that it the recommended method for boys, according to a child psychiatrist who saw my son for several years).

My daughter was just born with more self-confidence then either me or her brother.  She was bullied, she dealt with it and it stopped.  I did not have her self-confidence.

---------------------

As for that technique of letting the most athletic girls pick their teams, that is just downright cruel and schools should not do it.  Maybe they don't anymore, I am going back to the 1960's here.

I was useless at team sports.   It would be better if school kids had the option of either team sports (if they liked that sort of thing), or just plain exercising (like running, walking, etc) for those not into competitive sport.

Personally I think all competitive sports should be banned from school programs. Only cooperative sports should be funded.

I really don't think the issue of being picked for a team during gym time or on the playground at noon has anything to do with how good you are.  You might practise until you are the fastest runner, have the best throwing arm, be the best batter, but if the other kids (or the ring leaders) decide they don't like you, you won't be picked.  It might be different for competitive teams.

I was definitely lacking talent for sports.  But the whole experience put me off physical activity for years.  Everyone can benefit from running and walking and so on.

To those who like team sports, schools can offer them.  But I do hope that team-picking has stopped.   Anyone heard?

I was also put off physical activity by the competitive nature of physical education class, and the jerk of a phys ed teacher who we had. He focused everything on team sports, and his message for guys like me who weren't good at them seemed to be that we were second-class human beings. Thankfully, the TDSB these days offers classes in individual physical training. If I was in high school these days, I would take them and skip the team classes all together.

Nope team picking has not stopped.  At least not in the small town where I went to school.

When I remember the experience of team picking in my school years, it kind of went like this in our scrub soccer at recess.

1.  Boys were captains.

2.  Boy captains picked their "girlfriend" first.

3.  Boy captains then picked the best boy players.

4.  Boy captains then picked the best girl players.

5.  And for the rest said something like . . . "okay - you take _ _ _ _  and I'll take _ _ _ _ _.'   I was usually one of the _ _ _ _ _'s LOL!

Hi Elanorgold,

It serves as an epilogue.  The story ends proper with graduation and the two of us going off to different schools where each starts as small fish in a big pond and each had to survive.  New beginnings for both of us.

Our wrestling team was an ecclectic mix.  We had jocks, techs, nerds and stoners.  Anybody willing to do the work made the team.  If you could keep up with the workouts then you could stay on the team.  If you had the misfortune of being surplus (more than one wrestler per weight class--then you could still wrestle but  your match would be exhibition and provide no points to the final score.  On the plus side, if the other team didn't have a wrestler in your weight class you won without wrestling and your points did count in the final score.  You might get an exhibition match with someone a weight class higher or lower than you which meant you didn't get to show up and not fight.

If I had been able to excel in at least one other sport I may have been labelled a jock.  I had the speed for rugby and with an average build I could have done well.  The mentality of the team was somewhat blood-thirsty and didn't appeal to me.  I could hit the backboard on the baseketball net from anywhere on the court but I couldn't sink a basket to save my life and forget about dribbling.

I played Tuba in the school band.

I excelled in history and geography.

I took a lot of art classes.

My interests and pursuits were sufficiently broad enough to make pigeon-holing me difficult I guess.

Categories never disappeared, the distance between them seemed less and less important.  I don't know that bullying went away.  I think that most called it hazing and justified it as a rite of initiation.  So there was less horizontal bullying and it became more of a vertical thing.  Bullies in Grade 11 and 12 would terrorize targets in grade 9 and 10 and that became generational.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hmm, I had Jr High grade 8,9,10, and Sr High grades 11 and 12. I think that separation is good.

Never heard the term hazing before. I know of one or two girls, and one boy who didn't talk to anyone but I thought that was their choice, maybe it wasn't...I don't know. There were hundreds of kids in my Sr High, so I didn't know everyone.

I took art and band too, in Jr High, played flute, the prettiest instument on offer! I enjoyed both classes a lot. I took mostly art and writting cources in Sr. High. I didn't even realize we had a football team til one day I was philosophizing in the hall with friends and a football player walked by and it was like something out of an American high school movie! Lol!

EO That's great about your daughter. Sensible girl! Interesting about the chld psychiatrist, and that does make sence, biologically, historically, and from personal experiences I've heard about. Childhood is like the early stages of our species' evolution.

Seeler, You're right about team picking. Even when I showed promise, the popular kids knew they'd be shamed by their friends if they choose me. I remember how good it felt though, when I cleared the high jump bar no one in the class could clear. I didn't realize it was suposed to be difficult. I just sized it up and went for it fearlessly, not really comprehending I could hurt myself. It was sort of like jumping that horse. And the satisfaction I got from smacking that baseball was sort of like the satisfaction of getting a long math equasion right. I like things to make sence!

MC, Yeah, it's not quite as bad being a girl in gym. I mean the female gym teacher and I had nothing in common and I thought she was butch and unfeeling, but she didn't throw me huge inadequacy thoughts, she just thought I was lazy. But folk dancing in grade 8 was awesome! I wished we could just do that.

I don't remember being bullied at school.

In both Infants and Elementary I was fortunate to have good friends - but strangely, this made it all the more difficult to cope with not being in the "in" group in High School.

The family had moved five hundred miles, and I started High School not knowing a single pupil........

Whilst I wasn't bullied, I was largely ignored. The girls I wanted to be friends with were polite to me - but they didn't include me in their group.

I remember being confused - what was I doing wrong?

I soon discovered that I was good at most sports - so settled with the girls who were on the sporting teams.

It was okay - but it was never enough from wanting to be part of the "in" group.

It wasn't until I attended a school reunion in my fifties that I suddenly understood something that I had never realised as a pupil........

It wasn't that they didn't like me - just that they had known each other since they'd started school (it was a farming community) and their friendships were already established.

The School Captain asked my husband and I to sit at her table at the reunion. But, by the time we wandered over - the table places were already taken.

She was most apologetic .

I said, "It's all right".   (and it was).

As I later said to my husband, "Isn't life strange? Years ago I would have given anything to sit at that table - and yet I had the sudden realisation that I simply didn't need their affirmation anymore."

I had John, and some wonderful friends of my own............

I was with  roughly the same 25 people from K-12, a few kids left or joined the class as people move into or out of the area, but for the most part it was the same people the whole time.

I was really nothing like most of the other kids, I was bright (my IQ tests out around 130 - 140), I was a bookworm, I didn't like socializing ( I was a text book introvert).  In grade school I was thin, awkward and clumsy and in Jr High/High School I was plump and clumsy.  I was appallingly bad at most sports and my aim with anything from a baseball to a badminton birdy was so poor I was practically a danger to myself and others.

I was pretty much a target for every kid in my class and the classes immediately above and below mine.  I was teased, taunted, called names, pushed, shoved, and knocked down daily, had my fingers slammed in my locker and was shoved into lockers hard enough to crack ribs, had 3 pairs of glasses deliberatly broken, was stabbed with pencils. 

My teachers looked the other way.  The school counseler told me I was bringing it on myself by being different from the other kids.  With today's anti-bullying laws some of the kids in my class would probably have been expelled and I could likely have brought some of my teachers up on criminal charges for failing to intervene.

I got out by outlasting them and graduating.

Oh Rowan, That's terrible. I can't understand how adults can stand by and let that happen. It makes me angry about humanity that that happens.

Pilgrim, that sucks being sent to a new school at that time. My family moved at that time too, but I begged and pleaded that my dad would drive me to the school everyone else was going to, and seeing as he still worked on that side of the river, I was able to go to that school. I knew how hard it would be to go to school in the new place. I was very lucky.

There are times when I think a lot of adults in the school system and parents are blind to how cruel kids can be to each other. They, the parents in particular, all want to believe that their kids(s) could never do anything like that (being a bully).

Once, when I was in Junior High, I tried to actually get someone to do something to help me and went to the pricipal and named names. A couple of the parents of the kids who were the worst offenders actually called me at my home(me not my Mom) to tell me I was lying and that their kids said they hadn't ever said/done anything to me therefore it could never have happened and I should appologise for lying.

That ws pretty much the last time I actually reported anything officailly.

It is so sad to read the stories of being bullied, and so obvious that so much of it happens in school.  Yes, I was bullied all the way through elementary and high school, verbally and physically.  Teacher's kid, fat.  those who had been disciplined by my parents took it out on the kids.   I did not cope well.  It's so helpful when someone listens a bit, EAP person or otherwise and then says, "Just get over it!"

Now, after 30 years of ordination I know that those who bullied in school moved on to be bullies in churches.   "They" exist around us at all levels of the church.  And it's still sad and I still don't cope well.

But of course in the church we don't want to talk about that do we!?

I've also seen that RevMatthew - but I've also noticed a lot more people standing up to bullies in church (at the few congregations I've been a part of at least).

Ok, so, here is a question.....are there those who are more sensitive and so interpret stuff as bullying which isn't?  Also, are most people bullied at some point in their life, and for some it just sticks more.

I'm just asking.

I was surely bulled at some stages in my development.  I was way younger, physically less mature, and a geek/nerd.  I chose to do things which made me less vulnerable, but, I am sure I was also a bully at times....without even knowing it.

I also set myself up for being bullied, by being not aware of standard social actions, or being goofy.....Some kids, who were aware of the importance of conformance did so....and beat themselves up, so no one else would bully them.  The price of holding it all in.

Anyhow, i am not dismissing bullying...but, in all relationships, there are two sides...

I have been accused of being a bully on this site. ...once it wasn't deserved in my opinion at all.  Another, I had suspicions which proved true that the person was lying and manipulating others through those lies.  The third, I was being very pushy...aggressive.  Some felt it was bullying.  Others just figured I was being too aggressive.   In each case, I am sure the person on the other side truly felt bullied.  In all the cases, there were differences of opinion.

not sure if you can follow this late night rambling..but, just saying...as adults if we feel bullied, and shucks even as kids, we need to look at if we have a part in that situation.

I was never bullied by other kids.  I suspect they might have tried but it was never successful.  They had no power over me or who I was.  However, I was bullied by adults - particularly teachers and the principal of my public school.  Why because I "had difficulty with dealing with authority".  Frankly I did not have difficulty with authority; I had difficulty with the hypocrisy of authority where some were treated differently because of "who" they were.  This was an alien concept in my world and I did not adapt well, nor do I do so today, to flagrant discrimination.

It started in kindergarten when I was spanked by the teacher in front of the classroom because I spoke up in defense of another student - a boy that did get bullied because he looked "funny" with his big head and thick glasses.  He had been falsely accused of misbehaving on the bus.  I, foolishly being a 5 year old, thought the truth was important and spoke out - I was punished for this sin.  It was doubly shocking because, again in my world, hitting was not acceptable from either a child or an adult. Thus began the "difficulty with authority" that has lasted to this day.

Recently one of my co-worker's child was accused of saying the 'N' word.  The child, a really good kid with a heart so big it fills the room, denied the accusation.  The parents knew this was not something the child would do.  In fact, there had been repeated and reported incidents of the accusers bullying this child. 

The teacher and principle knew the bullying was happening, yet their response to the accusation was to extort a confession and apology from the child by threatening expulsion if they were not forthcoming.  The child refused - bless him - and the parents supported the child - bless them.

Confronted with this refusal the "authorities" did what they should have done in the first place - called the children involved in and discussed the incident.  When this happened the accusers admitted they had lied and they, uncoerced, *apologized*.

There lies the true lesson in this sordid tale.  People are bullied by being forced to conform by those with the authority to make the rules.  Those rules can be anything  - the right clothes, the right parents, the right social circle, etc. etc.  And those rules are adult made and driven.

For children the pain of bullying does not come from other children.  It comes from the adult abandonment of such lofty ideals as truth and justice; ideals that even a 5 year old can hold dear.  It starts with that first hard lesson from adults that says 'do what I say, not what I do'.  It is the classic battle between power and powerless; as a child you can't fight adult power so you lash out at what you can other children.

If "grown ups" really want to stop bullying, then they will have start themselves.  Children, after all, learn best by example.

We did everything adults would do. What went wrong?
       William Golding, Lord of the Flies

Rowan, WOw what ignorant parents those were! And a kid often doesn't understand that some parents just don't cut the mustard.

RevMatt, I think you should talk about these bullies in church. How do they bully I wonder? Surely everyone's an adult there and it can be discussed or argued as may be the case. Perhaps those people have more assertiveness? Or are they truely cold hearted meanies who get off on putting other people down? In that case, what are they doing in the church?

I find it hard to telll now, as an adult, who was a bully in school and who wasn't.

Pinga, I think that's a valid and good question. I think some kids are naturaly nice, and that can be taken advantage of by kids from rougher homes, who are jealous perhaps, and so beat the nice kid down so that they have less self esteem and then make an easy target. It's up to the nice kid to somehow find the inner strength to believe in themselves, and make themselves immune.

I think in some homes there is pressure from the parents for the kid to be tops, and so the kid then is intimidated by a kid they see as lesser, or in some cases: better, as they know that mom and dad require them to be "the best".  And therefore I think it helps a kid to understand a little of the psychology at play, and that that bully is NOT better than themselves.

In some cases, I think, a kid is taught at home that they are lesser, and this sets them up for bullying at school, by their diminutive behaviour. Lord of the Flies is an excellent piece of research into the psychology of the social structure of kids, and less so I think, in adults, as we get over much of the primal, animalistic behaviour of childhood (except when it comes to war).

Later in my youth, once I had overcome believing myself a nerd, and gotten out of it for the most part, my old nerd friends acted hostile toward me for "betraying" them, or so they felt. Well it was up to them to pull themselves out of it, not up to me to hold myself back for their sake. Two of my friends followed my example, and they were my best friends. The others just glared jealously. Well I wouldn't cozy up to that now would I! That was my past! I still had insecurities though, and had yet to learn how to stand up to people I loved and admired, and feared loosing.

LB, Great post! And I mentioned Lord of the Flies also before even reading yours! Ah great minds... I wanted to reply to your post separately, before my mind got confused, I didn't want to miss out anything.

You are a good and smart cookie. You remind me of my son actualy. He also believes wholehartedly in truth and justice. You have a judicial mind. You are your own best authority, I like that! : )  Questioning authority is one of the best things I ever learned too, but it's dangerous! All important stuff is. It takes risks to make advances. One of my idols told us that, though I allready knew it.  

I'm guessing what I was saying is not coming through....

You know how some people are hypochondriacs, or if not hypochondriacs, people who think they are the only person who has had a cold....or their cold is the worst, or their symptoms are the worse.  They go on & on about their cold...while there is someone sitting across from them who just got back from chemo or is living with chronic cholitis.

These people drive me crazy, yet, I know they exist, and they have no idea that there little cold is just normal everyday items that most people just brush past.  For whatever reason, for them, it is a massive thing  It truly is.  They do not cope.

So, I ask, are there those who feel they are being bullied but, who do not recognize that the way they were treated is no different than many others are, and the individual who said the word, or made the choice was either not intending for it to be taken that way, or was truly not enjoying their company.

I think I get what you are saying Pinga. It seems to me that if the bullying is unintentional, then it is not likely to occur over a long period of time. I know that I have teased people, only to have them take it the wrong way. As soon as I realized that, I stopped and attempted to make amends. Did I bully them? I don't think so. Did they think of it as bullying? Perhaps. If I had continued to tease them after realizing that they didn't like it, then I would have been bullying. To me bullying is always deliberate and usually takes place over a long period of time.

however, somegal, what about the person who finds themselves constantly being bullied....is there a possibility that they are misreading others intents, or not recognizing their own actions which result in say people's tolerances getting low.

i am not saying bullying is accurate, but, i am wondering, if there is also a case for those who name bullying when it is just life

I have had only a few conversations with you Pinga but it seems inconceivable to me that anyone would accuse you of being a bully.

When I first started on WC, I had no on-line debating skills.  I returned ad hominem attacks (prevalent under "Politics") with ad hominem attacks.   Later I realized that was not the way to go.  I am still having problems there, I may take attacks too seriously on "Politics."  I am on the point of just abandoning this site, that is how bad I am feeling about it.  I don't if I am being touchy or I am being realistic feeling as the odd man out.

As to someone mis-interpreting bullying--I think that can happen.  I also think that we can never eliminate all childhood bullying, and we should not obsess about what happened decades ago as adults.  

I can see it being a very sore point for LGBT of course, the situation is somewhat different there.  Lacking experience in the area, I leave it for others to comment.

EO, does it help that I often find your responses are the ones that I nod my head at...I have been working extreme hours, but, would sometimes just come home when all were asleep & read wc.  not post..just read.   remember that your questions, wonderings , ponderings and challenges are read by others who my not feel like jumping into the pool, but, are interested in what is going on.

ps...before anyone says..well, that is because you weren't bullied...sure I was.   One time in particular stands out in my mind.  I was in public school, probably senior public school.  I don't know what I did or what I said, can't remember, but one boy, maybe two, threw me into the window well at the church, stood on the top of it, and spit down into the well......my friend stood by & did nothing.   I was young, undeveloped, shy, and bright.  I figured out how to survive.  

The folk dance made me laugh out loud, and also feel bad. Why? I hated it.  We were forced to do it in grade 6 or 7.  There was one young man who had the coldest, clammiest hands (now i know he was nervous) who I dreaded ...and he was put as my partner.  we were likely two who didn't get partners right away.   I despised him.  Lagter, when I was sick in Toronto in my teen...he came with a dozen red roses for me to the hospital - we lived an hour away, it wasn't easy for friends to come, .  Later still, in my 20's, we bumped into each other...and he asked me if i wanted to go out for dinner.  he took me to a beautiful restaurant way above either of our price ranges...anyhow....what was odd is I abided him, and was nice to him, but he misread those items or held out hope...He ended up in his 20's being diagnosed with schizophrenia.  Not sure why he comes to mind in this thread....maybe because he was the victim in those spaces, sometimes for things he couldn't help, sometimes for things that he just couldn't see, and sometimes because of his physical makeup

At some point in all of our lives, we've all had people be mean to us. I think it's definitely possible to interpret that as bullying, but I also think that interpretation is inaccurate.

I've also known people whose actions have brought the attention of bullies (I'm thinking, especially, of people who are socially awkward). Of course, that doesn't mean that they should be bullied - nobody should be bullied.

Sorry, still not communicating it well.

Is it possible that those people who think they are being bullied are not even on the radar of those who they think are bullying them.  

or...that those who think they are being bullied are just not understanding someone making a choice not to be with them

or that those who think they are being bulied are just not getting that discipline or logical consequences are just that.....

I would say that for adults this is particularly true, particularly if it is words being bandied about. 

I do believe there is a profound difference when the action turns physical or if the power dynamic is unequal, ie teacher pupil, boss employee, etc.

I also believe, as the incident with my young friend points out, that there is inequity as to what adults dictate as acceptable or unacceptable behavior.  In that child's case the other two children have been calling him a "fag" for over two years now and this was well known to school authorities.  There was never a demand to "apologize" nor was there ever a threat to expel for this behavior but the very accusation of saying another word was sufficient to act against a child.

The school set the environment for who gets to be demeaned and who doesn't.  The child labeled "fag" should suck it up and accept his treatment as "normal" while the other child is offered all the protection of the authority at hand.

That is inequity. Inequity sets the foundation for a power dynamic and that dynamic sets the basis for abuse.  Those with the most authority and protection will abuse those with the least. 

That imbalance is human nature.  It is instinctual.  The only way to restore balance is to recognize that each of us possesses that instinct and work against it. 

For our children that means giving them the tools to recognize when actions go beyond "normal", when authority becomes distorted and therefore abusive.  We need to provide that child, and the future adult to come, a safety zone of self confidence...

By the time I reached grade 7 I was a smart mouth kid but I was also a well read kid.  I can't remember what I said to my grade 7 gym teacher but apparently it was sufficient that that adult thought the appropriate action was to threaten me physically.  My smart mouth response to the threat was 'go ahead, my family can use the law suit money'.  Those words were sufficient to stop him.  I had shifted the power balance and I done so because I was not afraid of him.  I knew he was a bully.  I knew that he could hurt me.  But by that time I had found something more powerful than him; my own self worth and the tools to use to preserve it.

I'm still that smart mouth kid just not so loud anymore.  I carry that emotional baggage and I know it.  Whenever I feel that power imbalance I recognize the physical signs, increased heart rate, shallow breathing, pounding head, .  But I'm all grown up now, right.  So sometimes I hold my tongue, the battle isn't worth fighting, but sometimes when the balance tilts too far the 5 year old speaks out and says 'this is wrong, fight it' and the adult in me says "damn the consequences'

Self-confidence is not the same thing as ego. This is not to say that the two don’t (frequently) dance hand in hand down the street, pushing over old ladies in crosswalks and kicking baby kittens. But they are definitely not the same entity. Ego is thinking you have all the answers. Self-confidence is knowing you don’t have the answers, but being pretty sure that you will be able to find them.
       Maggie Stiefvater

I think this is certainly true of adults.  

But with children, I do think the bullies usually knew what they were doing.  Some children DO attract bullies, they tend to be kids with low self-confidence, that was my problem.  

As I say, I noticed the complete difference between by daughter (as described above, she would not permit herself to be bullied) and my son (who had far less self-confidence) and did get some bullying.

I think that part of what some might see as bullying might just be a part of growing up and finding out how to relate to others.  I remember one time when our son was about seven or eight.  He had a best friend, Scott.  But one day he was playing with two other boys, when Scott came along and wanted to join them.  They told Scott that they were going to the store for treats and while he hurried home to get some money, they hurried off in the opposite direction.  Poor little Scott.  He came to our door looking for our son, and when we said he was gone with his other friends, Scott's face just fell. "They didn't wait for me."  he said and went home dejected.  We talked to our son about it.  "But I wanted to play with Biff and Joe, and they didn't want Scott." he told us.  Now I don't think our son was a bully.  But his rejection of Scott might have been seen that way, especially if it had continued.  The fact is that sometimes we change our circle of friends.  One person or the other develops new interests, meets new people, gets involved in different things.  Sometimes this happens to both at about the same time - we end up in different classes at school and drift apart.  But sometimes only one is ready to move on, and the other wants to keep things the way they were.  Kids don't have the social skills to handle these situations gracefully.  Some adults don't either.  I remember telling a younger kid in no uncertain terms "I don't want to play with you anymore. Quit following me around."  I hope I wouldn't do that to an adult - but I remember finding out that some people I had considered friends for several years didn't invite me to their New Year's party one year.  I was hurt.  I wonder if I have hurt others that way.  I probably have.