I think to answer this question, you have to ask yourself why you want a virgin?

Is it because you want to marry someone 'pure'? 

I personally believe that this might be a mistake, I would rather marry a woman who knows about her own sexuality, and is open about it so I know about it as well, then marry someone with no knowledge of anything and have a horrid sex life ruin my marriage.

This is all hypothetical I assume?  Marriage is a great goal but don't rush it.  Especially if your worried about virgins, then I would assume you are also concerned about divorce.  Just be careful, tread lightly, and understand that there are more paths out there than the one your on.

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

The future matters far more than the past. If you love each other and are good to and for each other, go for it. Not being a virgin is not that big a deal. If you two are faithful to each other then you're meeting the only Bibical requirement that's relevant to this specific question.

Actually, I'm a tad confused.

If you're asking if you should have intercourse before marriage, I'd strongly advise against it. No matter how much you and your friend may love each other, fornication remains something sinful in the eyes of God. As one who follows Christ, you should strive to follow Him in every aspect of your life including this one.

If you're asking if you shouldn't marry someone just because they're not a virgin, I'd advise that that alone should not stop you from getting hitched,

Another issue which I'd caution you to consider, however, is just how good a match you are with this woman. You say that you "...have accepted Jesus as my lord and saviour" However, I note you do not say the same of her. It is not God's will that believers marry sinners. The Bible warns against such unequal yokings. I'd suggest that you either wait to marry your friend until such time she does accept Jesus, or else break things off with her and go find a nice Christian woman instead.

Hope that helps.

Well I know that she was raised in a Catholic home and I think that would mean that she was baptized when she was little.
And the Question is not whether we should have premarital sex, as I know that is a sin. My biggest concern was that shes not a virgin and I was always told that by marrying someones whos had intercourse with another person is like commiting adultery. Im not planning on tying the knot anytime soon but its on my mind and I dont want to waste my time with her if I know for sure that Im not gonna get married to her.

Thanks

Who told you this drivel, Jae?

carloverp, I am not sure I can add anything to the feedback you have already received. I do have a question. You say both of you have pasts that you are not proud of. You say she is not a virgin, and this seems to be important to you. Are you a virgin? If not, why is it important that your potential bride be a virgin, and not you?

I have worked in the field of addictions and mental health for many years. What I have come to realize is that it does not matter what people have done in the past, it matters what they have done about it. I have met murderers who were far better people because they have taken responsibility for their actions and have made lifestyle changes so they will not do what they used to do. I have met "good Christians" who I would not trust as far as I could throw them. How is this woman living her life today? What do you two have in common? What are your dreams? Do your dreams match or compliment each other? Whether or not a person is a virgin is the least of the concerns sometimes.

I guess I did have something to add.

Northwind is a smart person.

I also would add that none of the (Christian) churches I've gone to would preach that premarital sex is a sin, or that it is a reason not to marry someone you love.  In fact, leaning on such exterior issues shows that you might be judgemental, or unwilling to forgive or trust her.  These are lousy traits in a spouse, and I would hope she would pass you by if you're like this.

So - if she makes your heart sing, and you look forward to a magnificent lifetime together, them marry her!  Love her like crazy!  Put the past where it belongs and give thanks to the Spirit for bringing you two together.  Good enough for my faith.

Let's also remember that the present here and now is far more important than the past and future put together.

carloverp,  first and foremost, you need to decide on what YOUR values are.  Specifically in this case, is there something wrong with marrying a non-virgin, or having sex with her with the intent of marrying later.  There's one significant thing you need to realize about asking questions like this:  nobody can answer them for you.  Any 'answers' we give here are just our opinions.

Personally, I wouldn't let it get in the way of a good relationship.  You two care for eachother quite deeply, so enjoy it in any way you see fit.  If marriage happens, it'll come up naturally on it's own later on.

Another thing to remember is that you don't want any skeletons in the closet.  Hypothetically, if you decide that your values say that marrying her is wrong, but do it anyways, just imagine how a fight would go after you're married.  These kinds of things could come up and get thrown back and forth as insults.

Again, just enjoy your relationship as it is now and do what you believe is right.

Ding ding ding ding!  We have a winner!

I understood from the original post that carloverp is not a virgin and that both he and this girl had similar pasts.  What would he think if she were considering turning him away for not being a virgin?  Double standard, anyone?

Look, your head is clearly warped with this God stuff, so far be it for a "godless atheist" to give you advice, but virgin or not, if you like her, continue dating the girl.  See where it goes.  And if you let some arbitrary superstitious rule get in the way of a good thing, it sounds like you'd be an idiot.

You are worried about whether you can be with someone who is not a virgin.

I think you answer the question when you say you love her and are thinking of marrying her.

So obviouisly you can love someone who is not a virgin.

I think the bigger issue for both of you is distance.  You say you love her and she loves you but you live far from each other.  Distance alone can add serious issues to a relationship but it can also prevent you from really knowing someone well.

I woudl suggest if this is a woman you might marry that you live in the same city and see each other daily.  You will learn alot about each other that way.

Virginity doesn't matter and I don't agree that premarital sex is some big sin.  Save yourself alot of angst and just be happy with your relationship and see where it goes.

I have a feeling that this is merely the tip of the iceburg.  Religion will likely come between the two of you.  As a marriage progresses, although it is part of, sex is just not as important as many other issues.  I would seriously question if your relationship would survive if you are hung up on sexual activity...cms

Hello carloverp and welcome to the WonderCafe,

So, the two of you decided to step it up a notch.  Is that notch balanced?  Are you stepping things up emotionally, spiritually, and physically or is it more up in a certain way?

Okay, if I am following you the two of you have pasts which both of you are ashamed of and both of you have had transformational experiences in your lives.  If that is so why is her past an issue for you?  Does your past deserve more forgiveness than hers does?

This person of God believes that God's ability to forgive trumps your willingness to forgive.  And apart from your willingness, your ability to forgive, appears to be suffering.

Something you might want to consider.  Does this young woman you love deserve to be saddled with a guy who insists on holding her sins under a microscope or does she deserve some of the grace and forgiveness that God offers?

So, how does the grace of Christ fit into this relationship?

Fair enough.  There are cultural differences as well.  Apart from that both of you can claim the label Christian.  The question facing the both of you now is how will the two of you honour God in this relationship and not how either of you have or have not honoured God in past relationships.

What trumps love?  

Again I ask. what trumps love?

Try finding someone who hasn't sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.  So she isn't a virgin, are you free of sin?  

Well, Jesus said let the one without sin should be the first to throw the stone.  Since you admit above that you are not without sin I think you should remember the grace you have received and see if there is enough left over for the woman that you love.

You would probably also be well served by remembering that Jesus, being without sin and having the right to throw the first stone decides instead that he will not condemn.

As a Christian that is an example to emulate.

Well, if you really feel that strongly I don't know what the problem is.  

I appreciate that feeling.  It is a delusion.  The only thing that would limit your ability to find and love another as much would be you.

Love is a choice.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I think it's a general consensus that you should just take it easy with this, take your time until you're sure about things.  There's definitely nothing wrong with that now is there.

what iritates the crap out of me in the (church talk) is when  two yuppies sitting in the front pew with their bibles who go to the same church as their parents, will say "Oh this is Gods will for us to be together." Who the heck are they and not somebody else in gods sight? I don't believe God has "a will" for a marriage partner. Because what if it goes tits up and heads southbound on a nasty downward spiral.

That has been the case with several dissillusioned christians I have known. They bragged about their relationship, showed it off. Got married "in Gods will" apparently  within a year and ended bad in divorce!

sex before marriage can happen a little bit, soft touching whatever turns yuour crank! even thinking it is supposedly lusting and adultery.

From what I've noticed out there not too many are following that rule anyway!

If a marriage that was "God's will" ends in divorce, it just means that God changed His will.  It may just be that God changed His will to the man marrying his secretary (God approves of secretaries a lot), and the woman taking the house and half their savings.  It may also be that it's God's will that she marry her tennis coach.  Now God's will has made four people happy - not just two.  And the kids get two sets of Christmas and birthday presents from their parents.  Under God's will, everybody wins!

No you do not have to wait until after you get married to have sex.   People do not get married when they are 12 anymore.  I agree that 12 year olds should be virgins.

If you have an issue with her not being a virgin you have a huge double standard.  You are not a virgin either so why does she have to be?

Oh ya the Bible says so.   That is a bunch of stuff that God did not say.  Man's   (and yes MAN's) opinions are in the Bible too.   You notice that the Bible does not say that men have to be virgins.  Why?  Because virginity was nothing more than a property issue and really even if you don't get it that is your problem.   You have an issue with the fact that another man handled what you want to consider your property.  That is not respectful of the woman you supposedly love.  Do you think God wants you to consider women as property?   I think that is a mistranslation of the Bible.

Amen brother!

Brilliant Serena.

There is certainly some good discussion in here. I would love to hear from the OP.

Actually, that's a perfectly valid translation of the bible, where all sorts of people were seen as property.

It is a perfectly accurate late 19th and early 20th century translation of the Bible.  The comments about a women's place, slavery, colored people, etc.   say more about the era the Bible was written in than the message the Bible attempts to project.

Serena, I think you mean "interpretation" rather than "translation".  Whether or not a given passage reflects a translation error is something that doesn't change from century to century, unless the passage is actually mistranslated in the time between those centuries.

As for "the message the Bible attempts to project" - the Bible is an inanimate object.  It does not attempt anything.  People attempt things.  The people who wrote the Bible attempt things.  If those passages no longer have value, then why are they still in the Bible?

Wait a minute, didn't you say a while back that everyone is a sinner?

Because if so, then what you're saying here is that it is not God's will that believers marry anyone at all.

I was reading this morning in the paper that there is an operation that she can have to turn her back into a virgin.

Problem solved!

You are correct.  I meant interpretation.

Because some people believe the Bible is God breathed and think that the world would collapse if we took some parts out.  I am not advocating that we take parts out I think that we should just remember that the Bible is not a rule book, a science book, or even a  history book.   This is not to say the Bible is totally invalid.  This is to say that all the Bible is is a collection of ancient writings about how an ancient civilization understood their God.

Given the propensity for people to assume that the attitude in question is "God-breathed" by virtue of the conscious decision to include it in the Bible, isn't it irresponsible to include it in the Bible? 

Or it was not God's will in the first place. It could be that feel confident about it, touchy feely thing that makes them think it is! Maybe it was the girl  sitting next to you on the TTC! or what about the person who just left the church to go to another after you arrived. It would be a delayed reaction of sorts, or missed opportunity. I disagree with the whole premise of it vehemently because I have struggled and wondered with my own.(in the beginning) It would only be the same runaround on the merry go round with the next person. Sex is the 25% of it all, the other 75 % is talking, listening, getting along. (which isn't always the greatest!) or just living in a house together raising children. You get deeper and deeper as time goes on. 

There is no perfect "God's will" for a marriage except making a decision and doing it. It might have been for Solomon to be in (God's will) and have 1,000 wifes and concubines. (Lucky guy! lol.) 

I think, more to the point, "God's will" is just a made-up explanation or rationale for something that seemed like a good idea at the time.

What RevJohn said!! 

And I cannot believe I am going to say this...but I agree with Besh.  Serena had some excellent points as well.

In this particular case I was contrasting believers (sinners saved by grace) with sinners (sinners not saved by grace).

Well, I've never heard that one before carloverp. What I have heard is that marrying someone whose previous marriage commitment has not been broken is sinful. In most cases this refers to people who were divorced for other than biblical reasons.

Okaaaay, but the way they understood their God, was that He was OK with keeping slaves one one hand, but not OK with it on the other.  Like many topics, the bible is split on slavery.  If you focus on the "love thy neighbour" side of the bible, then you can forget that it also contains this lovely little passage: "If a man smite his servant or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand, he shall be surely punished; notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished, for he is his money."

Let that be a lesson to you all - if you beat your slave to death, as long as he or she lives for a day or two, you're clear.

I'm not sure how you can "interpret" the above to mean anything other than what it says. 

In what I believe is a first for WonderCafe, someone has come across an interpretation of Christianity that is so insane that even Jae isn't buying it.

Well I really apreciate everyones input it has really put things in better perspective for me except for the fact that I ended it with the best thing that ever happened to me. I dont know why, it was in the spur of the moment and i just had to much pressure with work and at home. I dont know what I was thinking, and all my friends told me not to do it, but off a hunch i decided to go for it I felt better but now I miss her very much and nothing is helping. I know I may have made the wrong decision but something was telling me that it was for the best.

Probably because you're an idiot.  Or a troll.  The jury is out on that one.

That was your self-destructive side talking.

I think that it was not God's intent to have anything of this sort in the Bible.  Some overzelous guy wrote it in and thought he was speaking for God.

...because she is not a virgin and made mistakes in her past she is not worthy of you.   Ya  I think you made the right decision.  It would not be fair to her to live up to this ideal woman in your mind that does not exist.

What method(s) do you use to determine which parts of the Bible fit this description, and which parts do not?

I did not break with her because shes not a virgin. I know that for a fact. Either way you can make fun of me all you want, If it helps you sleep at night.

Well, why did you break with her then?

You're also a Jesus-freak, so your grasp on facts is tenuous at best.  But you did repeatedly call her "the best thing that ever happened to me", and the only potential incompatibiliy you listed was this small problem that you didn't have the honour of being the first guy to bang her, and you were considering breaking up over it.

So we, crazy as we are, figured that when you did report breaking up with her, that this was the reason.  If it's not, then what was it?  Were her knees too sharp?

Not at all.  These days, A/C helps me sleep at night.  If your story is real, I'm actually relieved for her.  She dodged a bullet, there.

Growing up (southern Baptist) I was told that pre-marital sex was essentially adultery because you were having sex with someone you weren't married to. I believed that for a good while, but upon closer study of the Bible I no longer believe premarital sex is sinful. For all the talk and consternation over sex about the only sexual sin you'll actually find that can be backed up Biblically is adultery. If you get married, be faithful. Other than that, it's not really an issue of sin.

Hi carloverp,

My advice to you from this point forward for all of your future relationships would be to understand why you really took this action.

I do not believe that it was in the spur of the moment no matter how impulsive it seemed to you at the time.  The fact of the matter is that you have been struggling with this and you invited us into the struggle and then, despite the preponderance of opinion here and amongst your friends that you should grow up you ran off and just did your own thing.

You simply were not able to forgive her of her past.  And honestly, it should have been simple for you to do if your love was genuine.

That is only her problem in that her past has been used by you to harm her.  What you are unable to forget or forgive is not an obstacle to God.  She will be greatly blessed by God when she finds someone who is able to look at her for who she is and not focus on who she was.

It presents a greater problem for you.  You are unable to forgive one you claim to love so much.  That suggests to me that you have no real comprehension of grace or perhaps no real experience of it.  Which means that you will most likely focus on the flaws of any other woman you enter into a relationship with and repeat this scene over and over and over again.

You did indeed make the wrong decision.  The only thing that will help is for you to grow up and understand why it was the wrong decision to make.

That something telling you that it was for the best is the part of you that knows what you did was wrong and is now scurrying about looking to justify the sinfulness of that decision.

You blew it and until you understand how and why you chose to blow it you will continue to blow it.

Sin crouches at your door and desires to master you.  You are not obligated to let it.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Actually, I sleep fine at night.   Its called being happy and knowing others are thinking about me.  I sleep better too when someone I love is sleeping beside me.  I also sleep fine after getting off the phone with him too. 

So I do believe you broke up with her because she was not a virgin.   I also believe that you could have had something wonderful and I don't understand why you would still choose to sleep alone.   I understand where you are.   Your mind is in such bondage to man made rules that you cannot see anyrthing else.   So I actually pity you since you threw something away that was so valuable.

But as for keeping me awake at night I sleep very securely in the arms of my love and think of nothing else.

The parts that fit with the love story of the Bible are kept the other parts are just cultural context.  Still that cultural context helps us understand our cultural contexts and how some are socially accepted today but God does not like them either.   The love story of the Bible is where God sent his only son to die on the cross.  The love story of the Bible is where God risked Heaven to rescue His children.  The love story of the Bible is where God RESCUES His children not that He goes all the way to the jail and then finds out that they have a sin and leaves in the jail just before rescuing them.

How do you know that the parts you just described are not also the ravings of some overzealous guy(s) who thought they were speaking for your god?

The thing is, if you have the personal knowledge and authority to be able to pick and choose which parts of the Bible are to be paid attention, then what that really means is that the picked-and-chosen Bible that results is your own creation.  You want message X to come from the Bible, therefore your Bible gives message X.  If you wanted message Y to come from the Bible, then your Bible would - with slightly differently selected parts - give message Y.

If you already know what you want the Bible to say, then why bother reading it at all?  Why not just compose your own from scratch?

The Bible does not forbid pre-marital sex.

You've been hoodwinked by a fallacy invented by priests who needed something to control the populace and make extra money off weddings.

I think you've just described the Bible Literalist, "true" Christian.

We condemn homosexuality with vigor, but we mix fibers with impunity, and eat pork with wild abandon.

I apreciate everyones positive and negative comments. You guys really helped to put things in perspective for me. I now have a different outlook on things and although I know im not fully matured yet and I have alot of it to do, i will try to be a better person and I think that I had a hard time forgetting about her past and looking past it because the people in my life always look at my past and keep bringing it up, maybe it was just the way i was raised.

Thank you all very much and god bless

It most likely is the way you were raised. Hopefully this will be a good learning opportunity for you. Remember how it feels to be judged and decide if you would like to continue your family tradition. It is quite possible to assess the family rules and decide whether or not to follow them. We all have a bunch of family rules that we carry into adulthood. The cool thing about being an adult is we get to decide which ones to keep and which ones to purge.

Good luck to you. Do stick around. These boards are great for all manner of conversations.

I sincerely think that we learn from each of our relationships.  You learn what is good and not so good about yourself and your needs for a mate.  It takes time to mature and understand what are break points for you adn what can be let go.

Sadly, I hope that you will take this break up, with a girl you seemed fond of, and learn form it.  Perhaps it was judgemental of you to be so harsh about her past, perhaps it is unresolved guilt of your own. 

Knowing yourself before you can know someone else is important.  And to me, for a long term relationship, it is important to be fabulous freinds before you are lovers.  Friendship is what wil carry you through tough spots.

And Serena, I am happy to hear you sounding so happy with your new friend