Kimmio,

I have to say that enjoying someone's company makes love easier.

I personally think you can love someone you do not enjoy their company.  It is just harder.

My mom's mental illness meant she was not enjoyable company in the past, but I loved her in spite of it. It was hard.

Love makes it very much more difficult to not be present... 

Kimmio,

Your thread topic reminds me of that saying,
"You can choose your friends, but not your relatives".

Love keeps you present -when like means you'd rather be elsewhere.

Sometimes, though, it's not up to me being present. They may not want me present (at least not for extended periods). I am kind of a black-sheep in my family in some ways. I don't fit the mould and I can see some members of my family squirm trying to tolerate my "weirdness" (I'm not so bizarre, I'm just more sensitive, less assertive in converstation than most of my family and I think it annoys them..I'm .kind of a wallflower around them...and forget bringing up church with my parents because they left church, and especially not my step siblings, they'd look at me sideways and sneer). I have tried numerous times to re-connect with my step siblings and form some kind of relationship because we essentially grew up together for 10 years...but they don't call me back...we see each other about every other Christmas when our mixed up family is organized enough...and we politely go through the motions. There's a huge elephant in the room that everyone ignores. It's sad really, but nothing I can do about it. I feel I did my part.  Also, I can't force myself on my old friends whose interests and values have changed from mine since we met. A couple of them don't want to talk to me anymore since I started going to church. Otherwise,when it's up to me and someone needs me, I agree I should be present for them even if it's difficult.

Well, I guess I scared people off with my heavy post. I was thinking last night about this though...because love should be, but  isn't always closeness and comfort. There are people in my family and old friends who I do love...but we mutually don't feel comfortable around one another and  it is what it is....we don't force ourselves on one another. It's an unfortunate reality that my family is not close. If they need me, I'll be there, but I don't want to be around them if they don't want to be around me.

Kimmio,

My youngest sister and I are the ONLY ones in my huge extended family who attend church. (our mother is an athiest).

There's no real dramas over that - but a lot of good-natured ribbing.

eg. I lunched with my other sister in a Law Courts cafeteria that has a fantastic view of Sydney harbour.

She winked at me and said, "I notice you get to look at the harbour and I'm looking down on a cathedral - you Christians never give up, do you?"

Over the years I've learnt to concentrate on the areas  that you can genuinely connect with others on. (In our family, humour does it every time). 

I've just received an invitation in October to join some close friends - a couple - at their cabin in the Snowy Mountains in Victoria.

Unlike me, their Christianity is literal, and their politics is conservative.

BUT, we connect very well on humour, enjoying nature, good food and wine.

My faith is experienced  rather than believed. Part of that experience is that we are all connected  (we are all God's people) - and it's up to me to seek out that connection................

I have no inclination to change them. Their spiritual journey is their own, as is mine.

Hi Pilgrims,

Some of my family, particularly my step family and some old friends (I grew up for part of my childhood in an upper middle class culture...the other part was pretty down to earth) are not interested in being on a spiritual journey, they're on a material pursuit of success and that's all that matters to them...quite honestly, some of them are shallow, classist, materialistic snobs. They have fun, find humour in making fun of people who are not interested in material things, or don't dress in designer clothes, and look down their noses at poverty and have no interest in social justice issues or anything I hold to be important. Not everyone is that mean...but I finally realized and admitted that I don't enjoy their company, and they find me a pain in the arse because I'm "too nice" like it's something to be ridiculed...it reminds me of high school. So I don't go out of my way anymore. I love them like I love all people in the sense that I would help them if they needed me, but they don't need me. I feel guilty, like I've abandoned them, but I haven't. They're still part of my life, my past...but I like my newer friends, chosen family better...I'm just being honest.

Plus, my ex-boyfriend and I keep in touch via email or a quick hello phone call about once a year, but we don't meet. It's mutually understood that we care, we are an important part of each others' pasts, but don't get along with one another.

That sounds pretty harsh of me, and they're probably overcompensating for something, but I don't know how to break through it...so I leave it be. Some of my old friends and family are not people I would choose to hang out with now if I had just met them, if that makes sense. I have a step cousin...she and I had a friend in common when we were younger...we were all good friends then, but I stayed friends with her into adulthood and my cousin didn't. That friend passed away unexpectedly about five years ago...she was living in the US at the time...I was really grieving badly. Her mom had the funeral in the states with just immediate family and didn't inform some people here until after. I only found out because I phoned my friend and her number was out of service, so I phoned her mom. She told me that she didn't have my phone number and was embarassed  to track down my parents (I couldn't believe it but that's what she said. She was still in shock herself and couldn't face people at the time and tell them that her daughter died). I wasn't angry with her mom, because she'd lost her daughter. I was really upset though that I didn't have an opportunity to say goodbye, and really needed some sort of way to bring closure...I tried to gather some friends together in remembrance of her but we were all in different cities and they were doing their own thing...My step cousin lives in the same city as me...I called her and she said..."oh, yeah, I forgot about her, that was so long ago. I'm kind of busy these days actually." They offend me, quite frankly. I've changed because I can't accept that behaviour anymore and their turning up their noses at my values. I feel like I tolerated it for too long just because I felt like I had to. I don't want them to change for me, but I don't like some of them anymore. I forgive them because they have their own problems that causes them to behave that way I'm sure, and I still love them as human beings. I would be upset if anything bad happened to them, but they seem to be fine without me. Does that make sense?

Hi Kimmio,

Love is about what one can give not about what one can get.

Which means one can love without being present.

Sometimes the greatest love we can give means that we will forfeit the presence of the other for the hope that the other will have more than we can offer.

In such cases we as the lover sacrifice the presence of the beloved in the hope that their new surroundings will help them to become more than what they might be in our presence.

For example, a mother gives a child up for adoption.  It may not be because she feels the child is a hindrance.  It might be that she perceives the context she would bring that child into would be a hindrance to that child's health and well-being.

Love just needs a beloved.  It doesn't need the beloved to be present.  If it cannot take pleasure in the presence of the beloved there are problems that need to be addressed.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi RevJohn,

Thanks for your response. Perhaps this is a little too personal.. I think I scared WCers off with this one. Unfortunately, I grew up in a dysfunctional family, with some dysfunctional friends and have struggled with some dysfunctions myself--the answer to this question might be much clearer to me had  I grown up in a wholesome church goin` nuclear family, but that wasn`t the case. In the case of these people, I felt like I was expected to compromise my values to be present, and to adopt theirs....to become essentially "meaner"  or less caring to be accepted (think of trying to fit in with the high school bullies, and fast forward several years--some of my old friends and even some of my family are like this), or to be subservient and take orders. I know I come across as somewhat stubborn in my posts. Yes, I suppose I am. I didn't used to be so much, at least I didn't express it. I used to be not very assertive at all in the context of my personal relationships. When, I went back to college, a little later in life, I started learning to assert myself-- letting people know if I didn't appreciate some of their behaviour, some people didn't like this new side of me. I would then cave, to make people happy, to make sure they still liked me. To tolerate that felt somewhat abusive--from them and towards myself-- after awhile. So I just said to myself "I wish them all the best, but I can't do this anymore." So, you're right, I did stop taking pleasure in their presence...but there was nothing I could to fix it because I think they were indifferent towards my presence, or even adverse to it if I was no longer going to behave like the same person they could push around. I felt that it was for the best to just leave them be and get on with the rest of my life. They have friends that share their  values and behaviours. I am happier with a few good friends than I am with lots of not very nice friends. I`ve made new friends (but have 2 old ones still--but they are the ones hesitant to be around me now that I go to church and one has even tried to talk me out of it and has gotten upset with me--it sucks)....but not a `group`of friends like I used to have. If I threw a party in my small apartment and invited all my friends now, nobody would have to stand or sit on the floor, and there`d be virtually no risk of noise complaints--not that that`s a bad thing.. Like I said though, I wish everyone well. I still have a few fond memories despite the painful ones, but it was time to move on.

Sorry, I just revisited this post again and added a couple of things if anyone's reading... I've probably said all I can say on this anyway. I do feel that I love these people, but I have some chips on my shoulder to work on is the bottom line.

I don't  know if anyone else has had the experience of examining one's thoughts in writing and discovering their own answers--it can be pretty intense. Thanks for sharing and letting me share.

i think it is completely normal to love people but not like to be in their company... one of my BEST FRIENDS is a person that i simply can't be around for much more than a day or two.

we are just SO MUCH ALIKE that we seem to bring out the worst in each other!!  but for us, thats not a problem... we are able to laugh about that.  and we just seem to know when each of us has had our fill of the other, and we just don't take it as an insult.  its just who we are.

its amazing, though, how we can be apart for months, even years, and when we find ourselves together again, its like we never left each others company...

I have a couple of good friends like that too (not the ones I'm talking about above). I really love them. We just live in other parts of the country, or have different lifestyles. I'm tolerant of others differences, I actually enjoy them...and I know what you mean about similarities. My mother and I are like that-- but I suppose one thing I don't tolerate very well is meanness. Unfortunately, I realized that some of the people I was friends with are actually kind of mean. .. adult bullies really. I didn't want to be around them anymore. There are a couple of others I was close with who've hurt me because they don't respect my decision, or calling as I feel it is, to pursue a spiritual path or to go to church...they've snubbed me pretty much...they make it very clear that they don't want to hear about church. One of my best friends hasn't called me back in awhile...she is very adverse to the notion of church. I'm not expecting her to go to church, but I would like her to respect my decision. I'd hoped she could do that and still be in my life. I'm going through a hard time with it right now...but I do still love them.

Beautiful reply RevJohn.

Sorry Kimmio, I haven't been to relationships in a while. Just found your thread here. I understand what you're saying, Maybe "care about" would be more suitable than love though? Of course it's up to you. A person can certainly be mad at people they love. And Love can flip over and become hate too, like my third boyfriend. Man I hated him with a passion! With or without you~~~ With or without you ah ha~~   ; )

"Many waters cannot quench love; rivers cannot sweep it away..." - Song of Solomon 8:7a
 

If you expect to be able to talk about everything, including church, with every friend you sure will loose some. Maybe you expectation are too high?

If for example, you have a friend you like to go hiking with, you don't need to talk about church. Or do you think you are on a mission to convert people?

Maybe you have annoyed some of them with talking too much about something they are not interested in? People to talk about church you will find mostly in church.

It would annoy me too, if someone keeps talking about something I am not interested in. And if that goes on and on, I'd just avoid that person's company.

Fair enough. Thank you for your blunt critique. I don't talk to them incessantly about church, barely at all, but a couple of my close friends are shying away from me because I am going to church at all. I am not on any mission to convert anyone-- just excited about the church I found and all the interesting things going on there...but because they are going on at a church rather than a community centre or college or concert hall, some people get the wrong idea. You have no idea how totally turned off by the mention of church some of my friends are-- because they've never been and only know about the evangelists they see on TV, American political theatre, and horrible stories about Catholic priests.. I know it's not all like that, they don't want to know the difference, so I guess it hurts that they are not all that interested in what's going on in my life and would prefer to change the subject if I mention church. They make fun of it or snub it to a degree that I find both immature and hurtful coming from close friends. Also, I am not someone who has many fairweather friends...I seem to form very close friendships or not at all other than people I see casually at places work or school (and making some new friends at church)...fairweather friends come and go it seems...but the people you can't talk about anything with aren't true friends, imo (and I respect that even with them you can't talk about everything all the time, there's a time and place--and it goes both ways)...but it is the close friendships lost that hurt.. That's just who I am, so maybe you can understand why it is hurtful? I'm talkiing about people I have known for over 15 years and I have not done anything other than get involved with a church. Should I feel embarassed or ashamed that I am going to church? I don't think so. But it seems they want me to feel that way.

.

Kimmio,

The have been a couple of interesting threads here about friendship/ relationships- and changes in friendship through life circumstances. If you had a major turn around in your interests and values, that might just sieve out a couple of relationships which you thought were something else.

I find this has been an ongoing experience over the years, that relationships keep changing and people turn out not to be the way I thought them to be. But that also means that people might turn out to be better than what you thought of them.

I didn't mean to offend you with my criticism, I was just thinking that religious enthusiasm can be deterrent, especially to those who have no clue what it is about.

I have a new friend who grew up in East Germany during Communism. When she heard that I was going to church, she looked at me in disbelief and asked "do you really believe that God makes rainbows as a warning that you have to do what he says?" Apparently, some super Christian co-worker has been telling her all kind of things- and since that was her "first encounter" with Christian belief she took it as "that's what all Christians have to believe".

I didn't jump on it and poured out all my belief system on her as a reaction- there is no need to convince people right away, all that would show that all Christians have the urge to convert people- not a reputation I would want to have. I don't feel that I would have to defend my belief or what I do in my leisure time. I  laughed about that question and  say , "no, that would be a pretty simplistic way of thinking."

She is my Tai Chi friend. We are great at learning Tai Chi together. Maybe we will be doing some other stuff together- maybe she will asked another question another time, maybe not- I don't need to save her soul, so the relationship is just great the way it is.

Relationships change over other things, too. I had a friend, I still do, but with caution, who had really weird parenting ideals.  From being able to talk about everything, as I thought we could, I knew through a conflict over those parenting issues involving my son and her kids, that parenting is definitely a thing we need to leave out of the relationship. We still hang out at times, but I know what the relationship can and cannot provide.

If you only keep relationships that you feel are 100% compatible, you might end up lonely.  It helps to have a network of friends.

I dont know how i missed this thread, Kimmio. I will be back when I gather my thoughts.

I don't love everybody in a personal way. I like people. And some people drag you down even if they don't mean to - family and friends. When I am around these people I stick to generic things to talk about. Religion for me isn't generic. It is personal and I don't care what others think so I don't get into conversations about it unless a direct reponse is needed to answer a question.

I have found that I can talk about religion, faith spirituality etc. with anyone who generally wants to but it isn't my  job  imo, to convert anyone. I also think that this will shine through by the way you live and interact with others.

i may be off track, Kimmio, but cherish the friends that you have and don't worry about lost friends. They have not signed

  a contract and neither have you. Live for today - dont obsess over yesterday.

Thanks crazyheart. I agree. I was down I think when I posted this thread originally about a month ago or so.

I hope you're feeling much better! It's good to see you here posting!

This is what I feel in the 51st year of my life. 

Love is  being able to trust someone to be trustful, to have patience to work thorugh shit on their own about you, to honor your viewpoint, to care about your vision.  To believe and trust that you are treating them and their journeys in the same way.  I love a lot of friends who I don't live with but this seems to be how we continue on together.

At home, the lovers who taught me this from negative and positive and long term dwelling we have intense relationships and learn to let the long term individual story line to have its space.  It is fun, I find to honor the long-term story of another as long as the individual doesn't insist that you only perceive their story in their way . . . being an adult is hard for some in this way, but I think of these working relationships are as much fun as working on old cars is for some .

Love is an art form,

Some interesting advice and comments here. I too tend to want to be able to say anything to a friend, like it was in high school. No one knew me as well as my girlfriends then. I lost two out of three of those close friends. One when I got married, the other I lost to drugs and competition. It's tricky. I still cherish the memory of those friendships though. I also know that my design is tattooed onto the ankle of my last remaining high school friend. She will never forget me! And I will always be a part of her.

I also understand the aversion to church talk. I used to be like that, it's the norm on the coast. Since being here though, on wondercafe, I'm not like that any more. It's funny to be able to see that. Now I find the odd person getting wary when I mention I'm on a religious forum... lol, "but you're spiritual, not religious right?" lol!

Church was a common, and contentious, point of discussion with my friends. I was liberal Christian, one friend was a hardcore atheist, and one changed during this time period from an ardent liberal Christian to an atheist. We didn't shy away from discussing church, even if I found the discussion frustrating because, like some of the atheists who've come through the cafe's doors, the atheist friend tended to assume that attacking the negative aspects of the more conservative, evangelical Christianity negated Christianity as a whole and my liberal arguments just meant I wasn't a "real" Christian. In the end, I drifted away from my Christian position to my present agnosticism for reasons of my own but I never accepted the hard atheist position and still argue against it at times. It never threatened to break up our circle of friends or anything and we all had a sense of humour about the conflict, but it did make for occasionally testy discussions and debates when religion came up.

On the broader question, you do not have enjoy someone's company to love them though, as SG suggested, it sure makes it easier. I would suggest that it is perhaps more normal that you don't enjoy their company all the time rather than never enjoy it. Even my wife and son get on my nerves at times so I would never say that I always enjoy being around them, but I also have some of the best times of my life with them. The love is always there, even if the enjoyment is not.

Mendalla

To love one is not only to care, but to want to be loved and cared for back.

I should have added that love does not last when you realize you are not loved back. It's a story I know too well.

If one is not loved back, can it be said that it was love?

I've often wondered why such an intelligent man as your good-self is grumpy. (sorry, "firm") 

I am NOT grumpy. I am firm.

I am NOT grumpy. I am firm.

I don't think not being loved back means you will eventually no longer love that person, though it may settle down lower in your consciousness as time goes on. It may become like part of a background tapestry.

I can testify to the contrary.

Now that I'm an old gal I've come to think that unrequited love isn't love.

Love isn't the feelings of one for another - but the relationship itself. It exists between the two people, and if it's not mutual - it's not love.

At it's most unhealthy unrequited love becomes obsession and can, and does, lead to murder and suicide. Nothing very lovable about that.

Mind you, I wish I thought this when I was a teen-ager and in my twenties.

It would have saved a lot of tears..................

Quite so. I certainly have a hell of a lot of anxieties. but no tears.

((hug))

Hmmm, Thank you.

...Tale of Two Cities. Carton loved Lucy Manette. Yeah he ends up killing himself, but so she can live with the man she loves. Not exactly healthy, but still love I think. Lucy is very moved by the extent of Carton's love and his sacrifice, and weeps for him in the end.

But I get what you're saying, and I thank you.

In my post, I was also thinking of when the loved one passes on.

From my experience when someone you love dies - the love doesn't die with the person. (Even though for a while you wish it had).

But it does need to find a new object - because love is expressed in relationship.

For some it's another person.

For me it's spread more widely in the way I relate to people.

For others it's sublimated into their passions - eg photography.

I just watched a film about a new widow in the 30's who went to China to collect her husband's ashes, and she decided to complete the task he had set out to do, in bringing back a panda to the west and changing the public perception of them as dangerous, to that of a relatively harmless animal that needs our protection. Great way to do what you're saying.

Hey. I ain't striking up no relationship with a panda.

Hey. I ain't striking up no relationship with a panda.

LOL! ; )

I guess Graeme really felt the need to emphasize his point - lol!

That's clever thinking, Graeme.

Chances are the panda wouldn't reciprocate your advances anyway.

Although, I actually read a very convincing book about a male scientist who shared a love relationship with a female ape..............

"Wish" - by Peter Goldsworthy - a surprisingly good read!

Here's a link     http://www.qbd.com.au/product/9780207189111-Wish_by_Peter_Goldsworthy.htm

Well, I should think a panda, if it has any taste at all, would find me attractive.

There's a quite erotic short story by Balzac in which a man on a desert isle develops a passionate affiar with a lioness.

What about the love of a parent? If your kid grows up and turns out in a way you can't relate to- will a parent stop loving it?

I can't image not loving my son, no matter how he screws up, but I am not certain.

I once heard a parent with grown up kids say, I wish I didn't have them...

Yes, I think there is an exception there. I have heard of parents who simply abandon children who go bad - but they seem to be rare. Of course, a parent is looking for emotional, etc. support from a child. Love is the word in both cases. But perhaps the meaning is a little different.

There's a wonderful song by Kate Bush about the mother of a murderer who still loves and protects her son. "Mother Stands for Comfort":

She knows that I've been
Doing something wrong
But she won't say anything
She thinks that I was
With my friends yesterday
But she won't mind me lying

Because Mother stands for comfort
Mother, hide the murderer

It breaks the cage and fear escapes
And takes possession
Just like a crowd rioting inside
Make me do this, make me do that
Make me do this, make me do that
Am I the cat that takes the bird
To her the hunted, not the hunter?

Mother stands for comfort
Mother, hide the murderer
Mother hides the madman
Mother will stay mum
Mother stands for comfort
Mother will stay mum
She stands for comfort

Not all mothers would. There's stories of parents having their daughters killed for shaming the family... pawned off as chattels... disinherrited...

I love the bit at the end of Tale of Two Cities, where Carton is on the cart waiting to have his head chopped off, and he develops an instant relationship with the girl in the cart with him, deferring his love to her in his last moments... and they draw strength from each other. Whoops! I'm giving away the whole plot! Really, it is an excellent story.