My personal opinion is that many people start a marriage but don't truly commit to it.  I listen to people who are planning to marry and hear an awful lot about the wedding, but not much about their future plans. 

I'm stunned when I hear that a couple are divorcing because one of them wants kids and the other doesn't.  We sorted that out before the wedding.  It also seems vital to know what expectations the other has about living accomodation (apartment or house, rent or buy).  How about holidays - camping nearby or trips to tourist resorts?  Alone or with which extended family?

I expect that there isn't the same taboo against divorce now as there was many years ago. Maybe not as many couples making each other miserable too! 

About 50% of marriages fail.  From my perspective as a lawyer I see a couple of things at work.  First, people are  taking the position that "life is short" and that if a marriage is failing then one ought to end "the project" and "cut one's losses" and try in the limited time available to all of us to find a relationship which brings joy.  I can't really argue with this as I have seen very few rocky marriage ever actually "bring joy" even if they don't end.  Merely "tolerable" is no longer considered good enough especially in view of the fact that there is no longer any social stigma attached to divorce and or separation as ther once was in the fifties and early sixties.  With the stigma gone there is no longer any apparent "down side" to separation and divorce at least in the contemplation of the issue of future happiness.  There are, of course, costs to be paid but they are not readily apparent to a distressed spouse or they often paid by others (eg. children).

Secondly, we live in a society that values individual satisfaction and that (through advertising) encourages impulsive behaviour and the seeking of instant gratification.    This has become a cultural norm but it is antithetical to the acceptance of the sort of delayed gratification that must underpin any attempt to "save" a marriage.  Of course, lack of "impulse control" (read "cheating") is what brings many marriages into crisis in the first place.

Hi Agnieszka,

Qwerty sums it up pretty well.

The "me" generation doesn't appear to thrive in the "we"  of marriage particularly when the way gets tough.

Grace and peace to you.

John

That all sounds about right Qwerty. It all makes me wonder about the nature of human relations... Did cave people stay together? Or was it only the women that raised the kids, and saw various males through the cource of her life. Is it natural for humanity to be monogomous, or to take several partners in the cource of a life? When and why did marriage evolve in the first place?

It's darn hard work sustaining a marriage through it's ups and downs ... and I think many are unprepared to stick it out.   I think the ups & downs are natural cycling in long term relationships, but are unexpected to many people, so when they occur, people panic & bail.   Just my two cents worth!    I also agree with others concepts outlined above. 

Twenty or so years ago I watched my niece's marriage fall apart, with a bitter custody fight over the three little children.  The hurt and pain caused by those two young adults to each other, the children, and the extended family is difficult to imagine unless you have been there. 

A decade or so later I watched my daughter when her husband of four years, decided that he wasn't ready for marriage and her nagging about his reckless spending, his debts, and the fact that they were no closer to establishing a home (other than a basement apartment) or starting a family than the day they got married.  He left, and she was heartbroken.  Despite the fact that he was very reasonable about the division of property (most of it wedding gifts or items she had purchased herself), her self esteem was shattered.  It took her years to recover. 

Then her brother's long term relationship ended suddenly when the woman we had many reasons to assume would be his wife and life partner decided she liked their best friend better.  'You move out and he moves in and nothing else needs to change.' was her attitude.   He was devastated.  In the months that followed he dropped out of his PhD program, lost his job, and eventually moved out of the country.   It took him several years to get his life back in order.

Recently a friend told me that her long term relationship was breaking up.   He had recently retired and she was making plans for early retirement to join him redecorating the house, taking trips, and generally enjoying themselves when she learned that she wasn't part of his plans.   She continued work, but soon had to book off time on stress leave.  She tells me that four months later she never knows what will set her off crying again.

Separation and divorce are not easy even in this day and age, and even when there are no children involved.  People get hurt - not just the two involved but the extended family and sometimes friends as well.  And it hurts whether you are the one leaving or being left, or if it is by mutual agreement.  It hurts.   It's not like going steady and breaking up.  It's a major change in your life.  

If I have any advice to give, from my advanced age:   Think very carefully before entering a marriage or long term relationship.   And think very carefully again if the going gets rough and you wonder if you'd be better off apart.  

On the other hand - if you are in a violent or otherwise toxic relationship, run like hell.

No use to talk to me.  I have had no successful long term relationships.  My husband of eight year left me and our two small children in 1981.  I was devastated and never really got over it, although even at the time, I blamed myself for a lot.  I kept asking him for a second chance, but he had already met someone else.  It was awful--I still don't want to even think about it.  No custody disputes though, he was not all that interested.

I can certainly empathize with Seeler's children.

A second relationship faired no better, although we parted by mutual agreement.  Basically, he could not get along with my kids.   A psychiatrist advised me to leave him. I did.  I was left stuck in Ottawa (I had left Vancouver for him) but finally found a job that paid my moving expenses back.  

A final attempt (we did not live together)--I gave up on.  He too was suspicious of my kids, plus he drank too much.

I am quite content being single now.  But I would not presume to give advice or criticize anyone else for what they do or don't do regarding their marriage.  I have batted out on that score.

For emotional support, I relied on my friends, my sister (who marriage worked out) and later, support groups of various types and a wise child psychiatrist who saw my son.  My parents were not terribly interested and seemed primarily worried that they might have to support me somehow (they never did, I have been working full time since 1981).  They were angry at my husband for leaving the children though, especially since he quit his job to go back to school and did not pay child support.

Some of the above, I would agree with. However, a significant element relates to the gains that women have made in terms of equality. There is still much to be worked out but the fact is that many women are working and are not trapped because they have financial recourse. 

Legal remedies, while less and less available to most people because of high legal costs and legal aid that isn't really available to most people, do exist where once they didn't. I know someone who got a divorce some years before mine - she had to accept being divorced by her ex on the grounds of her infidelity even though the new relationship took place years after her separation. Her ex also sued the new person somehow for alienation of affection or something like that (qwerty, you'll hopefully remember and understand where I'm going with this). Not everyone has the fortititude, money or time to deal with this and again, are trapped.

Thank god/dess that women have choices that we didn't have in the past. This is much bigger than many people realize. My grandmother lived with an alcoholic until his death in his 60s - she had 7 children to care for while he was away with the army and he was drinking and abusive upon his return. What would/could she have done to escape that?

I find the we/me generation suggestion to be a bit facile.  That is part of it, of course, but the "me generation" issues are also reflected in society at large.  We don't live near our families for support any more, and our societal supports are the weakest they have been in at least 20 years.  Many couples are simply on their own, with no kinds of support available (try even getting marriage counselling if you don't have good insurance or aren't very wealthy).  While it is true that some give up more easily than they might have once due to the lack of stigma (and I'm still not clear that is a bad thing) or simply selfishness (that IS a bad thing), it is also true that the kinds of stresses that would have once been cause for a mass family gathering, are now often carried alone.  The societal supports that could have once stepped in in place of extended family no longer functional at even nominal effectiveness.

...... if I may share an observation made by my grandfather.....

He was 90 something and at the stage where he had those lucid moments where he was as sharp as a tack and then the rest of the time was more of a haze...

This he said at one of those increasingly rare sharp moments.....

.....

He said "the trouble with people is that they are too damn independent"

I have so very often medidated on those words in regards to relationships of all kinds and especially the marriage relationship.    It seems that we are increasingly afraid to willing put ourselves in a position of dependance.    My son's wife's mother ...... she instructed her daughter to make sure that she is always able to function and get along on her own.   In my opinion... not in a good way ... but rather as a protection mechanism in case the relationship falls apart.   That woman sadly has had a hard life and become a single mother.

.....

"too damn independant" ...... worth medidating on.....

.....

Hugs

Rita

I agree. Qwerty says it well.

I can't agree here Rita.  My parents DID encourage me to be able to look out for myself and for this I am grateful!   I was a single parent for a long time, but at least not an unemployed single parent.  I was able to hang to a bit of dignity, take pride in my work, even afford a small half-duplex, and that has helped my self-esteem in dealing with the terrible sense of rejection that I never really got over.

In another case, a good friend of mine from high school, she stayed in an abusive relationship for years longer than she should have because her parents has given her the opposite message: you will meet Mr. Right, you will not have to work, everything will be fine (this was in the 1960's).

Heck, I am even glad that my mother advised me take typing in high school, for all the wrong reasons.  No one at the time suspected the explosion in the computing world, and I never suspected I would spend my working life before a keyboard (as a computer programmer).   There are quite a few men of my age in the computer world who still cannot touch type and it certainly hurts their job performance.  

Oh my goodness EasternOthodox .... once again my words have been clumsy....

I too agree and endorse the idea of being well able to function on one's own.   And yes each person in the relationship should develop as fully as possible.

Let me try again .....   What I am referring to is about the heart and the fear surrounding allowing ourselves to be heart dependant on another person.    What I am trying to get at is the sort of vulnerability I feel is necessary to go deeper into a loving relationship....

Oh my ... I do hope that helps better explain where I was trying to go with this....

Thank you for helping me express this a bit better

Hugs

Rita

Hey Rita, I think I get what you're trying to say: people harden their hearts in anticipation of hurt and in marriage that just can't work.  It's an independence of sorts, I suppose, but it's actually an emotional injury they are nursing and protection, and that wall around the heart simply can't allow for the kind of relationship marriage is supposed to be...  BUT that's just one variable.  I am sure it plays a part in a lot of breakups...

Rita,

That's a wondeful way of expressing a necessary ingredient in any fulfilling partnership or marriage:

"The sort of vulnerability I feel is necessary to go deeper into a loving relationship".

Vulnerability involves trust -and, as such, demands courage.

That courage can be rewarded with the deep love of two committed soulmates - a bond so strong that benefits the lives, not only the couple, but those around them.

Sadly, there are times when that vulnerability is betrayed.

In these situations courage is doubly required to risk your vulnerability again. - this time with a new partner.

For, IMO, if you're not willing to risk your vulnerability again the new partnership will be lacking the depth  required of two soulmates.

Some are willing to settle for this, other's not. By that I mean a comfortable companionship is sufficient for many - particularly in later life.

But, like most things in life - the more you put into it (of yourself) the more you tend to get out of it..........

Worry not!   I understand what you are saying now.  I just misunderstood.  Thought that was kind of a weird idea--make sure you are so uneducated and broke that you have to stay no matter what!   

take care

Marriage, and being married is hard work!  You have two people who enter into it madly in love with who each one is at the time.  It is hard meshing two lives into one lifestyle, and hope and plan for the future.  It is hard when each one is growing, living, and changing, moment by moment, day by day, year by year from the time one says "I do" until they end up being who they were meant to be.

Sometimes the challenges, trials, differences, and situations are so unsolveable and unliveable that separation/divorce needs to take place.  Sometimes the two involved need to work through the challenges until they come out okay on the other side.  Only the two involved can decide which it will be.

Sometimes one person wants to call it quits and walk away and the other wants to stay and try to make things work.  When the other walks, they are left holding the broken pieces and trying to carry on.

Seeler mentioned that it is not just the two involved that go through pain and suffering in a separation, but also the families (& friends).  My son ended a commited, long-term relationship with his girlfriend (they were living together) about 8 years ago.  It has been very difficult and painful for me over the years (we loved her, still do, very much), and I feel it is only recently that I am healing from the hurt.  I also remember the pain and worry my parents experienced when my first marriaged ended up broken in a very hurtful way, with my husband wanting out, and subsequently walking away.

Marriage is hard work - I have now been married for 27 years.  I can say that I am happily married - but it hasn't always been a "bed of roses".  We work at our differences, and try to make sure that each one has the best shot at what makes them fulfilled and happy and yet works within a unit of two.

I good friend of mine, from church, has gone through the same problem with her daughter.  Her daughter -- who seems like a very nice girl -- was very much love.  Just before their first child was born, her husband suddenly announced, out of nowhere, that he had never loved her.  I always thought her husband was a bit odd, but I could not put my finger on it.

My friend took it very hard, as she told me, "I loved him like a son."   My parents, who stayed more detatched, may have fared better from this point of view.

It was then complicated by the man threatening over custody.  Ach!  

She and her daughter even left our church and started attending the Greek Orthodox church to get away from this man.  She also developed a feeling that the young people in our congregation (and we are mostly young) were somehow "taking sides."   So sad, all around. 

i agree with beloved... marriage is hard work. 

i remember hearing a phrase that describes it pretty well...

somedays, love is a feeling.  and other days, love is a decision.

there are lots of days where i think to myself 'good grief why did i marry this man??!?!', and on those days i have to just buckle down and remember that those feelings do not last forever.  sooner or later, he will say or do something that brings the whole thing back into focus and i fall madly in love with him all over again.

the other thing i have to remember is that he is no romantic, like sting or leonard cohen... he can't write poetry or music that will bring me to my knees with desire.  he never will be able to, either.  that isn't who he is.  and if i try and make him into something he isn't, i will be forever dissappointed. 

what he is, well, i probably shouldn't describe some of it here cause this is a family board and all, but suffice it to say that he is really good at other things. 

i guess i should be thankful that he has the shortcomings he does... if he didn't, he probably would have found a better wife!!

I think this is very important sighsnootles - sometimes (probably moreso women than men) marry someoone thinking "I can change that", and then become disappointed.  I had a friend who married a man who smoked.  She thought (and partially because he told her he would) he would quit smoking once they got married.  34 years later - he's still a smoker .

We can be disappointed if we expect our partner/spouse to change into what we would like them to be instead of accepting them for who they are - weaknesses and strengths.

Thinking we can change someone may be easier than accepting them for who they are, especially the weaknesses. SImplistic, yes, but if someone is trying to decide whether to marry their "one true love", it may be easier to talk oneself into it by thinking "he/she'll change" than by thinking "I love him, faults and all". Grief can result, of course, when the expected change doesn't happen esp. since the other person may not even know that they are expected to change.

Mendalla

The hardest thing for to deal with was my husband just announced out of a clear blue sky that he had met someone else and was leaving.   Now, he must have been unhappy before that but he never told me!

If you are unhappy to the point of wanting to leave, could you at least give your spouse a head's up and give them a chance to respond?   Perhaps they would work to save the marriage?  Why to do people just exit all of sudden?

Ugh, does this mean my husband is always going to be wiping his face on the hand towels?  I guess I better stock up so I can change them frequently to avoid all the toothpaste on them :)

Rita, I got exactly what you meant about needing to be dependent on each other.  I think it goes beyond just significant other relationships.

I wasn't expecting to find a good laugh in this thread!

It is sad when you know lots of people who are divorcing and sometimes i think there are ages when things happen.  Friends all marry in their 20's, have kids in their 30's , divorce in their 40's and remarry.........  It can be disconcerting especially if that isn't your life.

But as for all who say marriage is hard.

I hear that all the time but for me

Marriage isn't hard at all.  It is easy, wonderful, loving.

i never understand the "hard" sentiment.  It isn't for me.

It is certainly discussion, compromise, love, laughs, support but that isn't hard

sometimes marriage is easy for me, too... but occasionally, it is really hard. 

and if i thought that the hard stuff wasn't supposed to happen in a 'good' marriage, chances are it would cause a rift in our relationship...

The global human spring continues

I have made it through the one year single mark. I have not been single for about 18 years - had a 10 year relationship then I lept into an 8 year one right away that ended last Nov.2010.

Enjoying being alone, meeting my own needs, feeling strong, independant, free...

Do not ever want to 'settle' again but certainly would like to be in a relationship with someone. Would like to wait to find a great match (how does one ever know!)  but  I feel impatient.

Advice?

Marriages break up because, when things go wrong, each side wants to be right. Each side wants to be so right that they'd rather be dead than wrong, which, of course, is dead wrong.

The most important thing to be is wrong. The one who first admits that s/he is wrong usually is the one who loves more.

-from The Importance Of Being Wrong by Arminius

I think that everything has an expiry date and to assume that anything lasts longer than it does is the cause of much anxiety & suffering.

I am finding that my marriage isn't an object or a noun, it includes my wife and me and it includes the environment around us, our friends, and such differing things as the words we read, the media, changing expectations, the processeses of ageing and so forth.

My wife brings certain concepts with her courtesy of her culture, her upbringing, her monotheism, and I have brought certain concepts with me as well.

It is an excellent ride and a very trippy one with thrills and chills...just like life.

There are no rules, we're making it up as we go along.  Those who think that marriage has objective, unwritten rules I think...good luck to them, for when reality crashes in (and it will), they had better know how to adapt with it instead of assuming what worked before will apply 100 per cent.

Marriage isn't for sissies ;3

No advice, Magoo - but definitely extend wishes that you meet the right person to share your life with.

Thanks, beloved.

Next time will try not to leap - will take lots of time to get to know the person. Ha - famous last words.

That's the thing: my experience is that falling in love is not a choice. (I am 50)  It happens!  I have never been in a love-relationship with someone I was only friends with at first; there has always been that excitement/attraction as well.

My ideal would be to know someone closely as a wonderful friend then find myself (ourselves) falling in love...surprised in other words.

Too many people define love as just an emotion, so when the emotion is gone they split up.

Love, of course, is not an emotion, but rather a choice. I may not always feel like loving my wife, but I can always choose to.

The same holds true for all who are married. If we all keep choosing to love our spouse, there will never be a reason for separation or divorce

this is exactly what i was thinking and i was hoping to read it up thread sooner.  women were once trapped.  sadly, many women in this day and age still are.  i think as equality evolves, marriage too, will evolve.

how many "june cleavers" had husbands that drank, cheated, gambled and abused?  how many children were victims of these toxic relationships.  i think just as many relationships that "work" now, would have "worked" then.  i think the major difference now is that for those relationships that aren't "working" now, there are options and an "out". 

it is unfortunate that children are caught in the middle.  they are the victims either way.  my nephew, for example, is much better off now that his mother and father are seperated.  his dad, my uncle by blood, is an alcoholic.  he doesn't want help.  i am amazed that she stayed with him for as long as she did, which was mainly because of "the child".  my nephew is and always will be a "mess".  i wish she had left him sooner.  my nephew could have been exposed to a healthy relationship sooner. 

most of the relationships that i see dismantle have issues.  real issues.  addiciton is usually a major culprit.  addiction to alcohol (*or insert drug of choice), sex, money, etc.  or a combination.  sure, sometimes it's just that the relationship dynamics have changed, but more often than not, there are bigger issues.

i am blessed to have a wonderful husband, who knows my expectations and i his.  we are each others equals.  we love each other and i was shown this example by my grandparents.  the same grandparents who raised 2 children (sons) who divorced and 1 (my mother) who has been married happily for 38 years.  my grandparents had the "perfect" marriage and were the "perfect" role models.  no drinking, gambling, abuse, etc.  the boys both had wonderful wives.  i could not have asked for better aunts.  as i said, my one uncle addiction to alcohol, power, money, abusive both physically and emotionally.  the other, abusive, mainly emotionally, sometimes physically and an addiciton to spending.

just my 2 cents.

marriage (41%), and abuse (29%)

just realized that this was an old thread, but thought i would add this as well.

I think it's more accurate to say that love is an emotion but it's not only an emotion. Love has to go deeper than just an emotional response if it's to be meaningful.

Otherwise, I agree with your words about choosing to love. One can, in fact, choose to love, or at the very least to act lovingly. It seems to me to be what Christian faith is about from a moral and ethical point of view - loving even those we can't love.

Never say never. Sometimes love isn't enough. A person might choose to love somebody, but if they don't feel safe around that person, if the person needs help and won't admit it or accept it, if the person is violent towards his (or her) spouse and/or children - leaving might be the wisest and most loving thing to do.

If the choice is between killing him, or being killed, or getting out, I think the choice is obvious, whether you love him or not.

society and the media tend to set us up for epic marriage fails.  in my opinion, we are supposed to want spouses that resemble something like this:

him:

the looks of hugh jackman, the athleticism of sydney crosby, the humour of jerry seinfeld, the romance of william shakepeare, the suave of tony bennet and the money of donald trump.

her:

the looks of cindy crawford , the domestic qualities of martha stewart, the bipolar saint by day porn star by night personality.

so maybe stereotypical and open to some interpretation, but in my opinion, valid.

we learn that our self worth is based on how perfect we are on the outside instead of our self worth on the inside.  we need to start teaching and learning that whiter teeth,  six pack abs, and designer clothes aren't what will matter. 

the first argument with my husband was about this, kinda.  he said that the physical attraction was important in a relatiionship and i agreed to a certain extent.  yes, that "lust at first sight" is very real, but "love at first sight" is impossible.  i had lust at first sight for my husband.  he was a dark buffed climber/snowboarder with smarts and humour.  i know those things will fade.  we may experience the hardships of illness as we grow old.  he may forget who i am.  he may become grumpy.  what will never fade for me is what is in his heart.  the good man that he is.  how he wants my grandmother to move in with me because he sees how sad i get when i am sitting in her lonely apartment.  how he cares for me when i am sick.  how he loves our children and is a present dad who spends time, not just money.  how he kisses my forehead and gropes my butt *lol*  how he admires my passions, even when he disagrees.  how he treats me as his equal.  but most of all, how he knows that i value my self worth and he values it as well.  he expects and receives nothing less.  the fact that he stuck around after my first "lecture" still speaks volumes 12 years later.

i would stick by him through thick and thin, but i would not tolerate abuse of any sort.  if he wanted/needed help i would walk the journey with him, but if he didn't i would walk down a new path for the sake of my being and the being of my children.  i feel that i am worth that and so are my kids.

Momsfruitcake -
You wrote - I would stick by him through thick and thin, but I would not tolerate abuse of any sort.
How would you stop it if you discovered some time after marriage that he considered it his right and responsibility to teach or discipline you, or if he simply unexpectedly started flying into rages (perhaps because of a situation at work where he didn't dare speak out) and started using you as a punching bag?

You wrote - If he wanted/needed help I would walk the journey with him but if he didn't I would walk down a new path ...
Doesn't that mean that you would leave him?
Which is it 'stick by through thick or thin' or 'walk down a new path'?

hi seeler.  sorry, just reading through it and yes, i guess it's a little confusing.  got a little rushed at the end of my post.

just to better clarify, let's use physical abuse as an example. if i honestly felt it was a one time thing and that he was truly sorry and wanted help sorting things out, i would stick by him.  if i felt at all that myself or children were in danger and it was beyond me, i would leave the situation, possibly temporarily, possibly permanently.  there are a lot of variables.

other than that, it would take a lot for me to leave, unless  he kept pushing me away, due to substance abuse, gambling, etc.  i think i would give him his space.  i think that is all i would be able to do in that situation.

i guess in a nutshell, i would help him as long as he wanted to be helped and i would not stick around if i felt he was a danger to myself or my kids.

i'm not sure that makes anymore sense than what i had posted before *lol*  i hope it does.  yikes, i guess it's been far too long since i've been around and need to brush up on my writing skills.  mr. ricci would not impressed *lol*

I don't see staying through thick and thin or leaving due to abuse as an either or option.

If there is abuse, I will leave.  If times aren't good, but there's no abuse, I will stick it out.  (I'm not 100% sure if this is how I personally feel - just writing it out as 'I'.  I think personally, it's at least a good starting place though).

that sums it up very well.  thanks.  it states what i mean/how i feel perfectly.

So no one leaves because of adultery?   Or getting tired of being ignored?   Or having the spouse control the money and refuse you any but the bare necessities?  Or not having access to the car?  Or being kept isolated from your family or former friends?  Or watching the spouse gamble away everything you have worked for?   

Working in a hospital- I have often admired and watched people's relationships in tough times. And asked myself how far I would be able to go.

There are amazing partners (and families) who accompany their spouse/ family member through the dying process in an extremely loving way.

Then there are the marriages that were bad before, but then the disease hit, and the spouse can't deal with watching him/her die of cancer and simply does not come to visit anymore.

Then there are the dependant love/hate relationships where their meaning of the relationship is to make eachother's live miserable- and they can't separate. So in crisis situations, they have even more material to make eachother miserable.

I have the impression, that relationships must be like filling a big barrel together with happy memories and overcome obstacles and beautiful moments- and if it is full enough, then maybe, you will be able to draw from it , even when the other doesn not resemble the partner anymore who you created these memories with, because of his frontal lobe dementia, or a mental health issue.

If, for whatever reason, you can't fill the barrel enough to last long- or you lack the skill to draw from it, or the partner has never been the one to to have these experiences with,or because of the circumstances, it's empty before it's time-then it's only the frame of feeling obligated, financial reasons, reputation, convenience etc. that is holding it together- which is  not counting as as important today as it once was.

absolutely, ALL these reasons are all valid.  i was only speak for myself and my situation.  i know my husband and to use mrs. anteater analogy, we have a lot in saved up in our barrell.  enough for me at this point to draw from.  that's not to say it would never run dry, and for many has run dry. 

in my first post i totally agreed with leaving a relationship that just doesn't work.  everyone should have the choice to leave unhappiness to find happiness.

i'm not sure if we're agreeing or disagreeing.

moms - I don't think it is a matter of agreeing or disagreeing - just exploring ideas.  My original post in this revised thread was in response to Jae's 'there is never a reason ...'    Oh yes, there could be a variety of good reasons.   This is not saying that I approve of divorce or see it as an easy solution.  I've been married for 50 years, and it hasn't always been peaches and cream.  In fact, sometimes we've been on the brink.  Sometimes I look back and wonder if we would have been better off if we had split when ......happened, or ........happened.  But generally I think it was for the better that we stayed together.   Separation and divorce hurt - they hurt a lot of people and for a long time.  Sometimes they are the best solution / sometimes not.   Never say never.

got'chya :)  it seemed at the time only you and i were engaging in the conversation.  i think then, we mostly agree.  thanks for clarifying.

Seeler, do you not consider any of those situations you listed to be abuse?

Of course they are abuse - but then anything that damages a person or a relationship is abusive  Generally, when I think of abuse, I think of physicial abuse, or extreme verbal and emotional abuse.    The line is hard to draw.  Some couples can take a lot of swearing and shouting at each other - but for other people this type of behaviour is devastating - so if you're married to a man who swears when his eggs are undercooked, and you run to the bedroom crying every time he swears, you might consider the situation abusive.   Some couples feel threatened if their spouse so much as looks at a person of the opposite sex, while others might feel comfortable having their spouse spend the evening dancing with another.  Some couples spend almost all their time together - others want and need time apart, and might not feel that they have to account for who they were with or what they did.  But if one side feels hurt, betrayed, neglected, rejected, abused - then it's abuse.  If it continues, and the other person doesn't care, it may be reason for looking at separation.