Hi Elanorgold,

My condolences.

Is counselling an option or is the general consensus that there is nothing left to salvage?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Lots of changes Elanorgold.

One step at a time. I'd started with income as that may influence where you live. You were working at home with your husband I think

I'd see your son frequently-best parenting arrangements are fluid and can change over time given all 3 of your wants and needs.

I'd also see a lawyer pronto. For adivice-questions like why are YOU the one out of the house? What are your rights and obligations. I'm NOT saying start divorce proceedings. I AM saying gather some information.

Hi Elanorgold:

Too bad! Separation is always unfortunate, not necessarily for the separated parents but for their child or children. I saw that with my own grandchildren. Their parents separated, and seemed relieved after the separation, but their children suffered. That's why we, my wife and I, looked after them a lot and became parent figures to them.

Our daughter and her ex are still not on speaking terms. Deep seated grudges die hard. Life is too short and too precious to bear grudges.

RevJohn, I could probably use some counselling to help me figure out what to do, but no we don't want to salvage the relationship. It's been a long time coming. We hope to be friends, but there is alot of hurt right now.

Tabitha, I've seen a legal advice lady, and made notes about how to proceed. It's so complicated. She told me lawyers only do legal aid for separations if there was substance abuse or violence involved, which is not my case. Can't afford a lawyer otherwise. We hope to deal with it amicably between ourselves. I agreed to let him live in the house til it sells because I agreed he should have greater custody of our son, and I want my son to have the security of the home he has known. It was also because I have family in Canada to stay with in the mean time and my ex doesn't. My first step today is trying to arrange to get myself a car. My work from home is largely shot, though I have three fairs left this year and plan to continue it as a side project. I wouldn't be able to support myself renting on what I was making before. I was planning to have the house myself, because it's mostly my furniture and because of the way we payed for it, but ex had other ideas, mainly because it was my decision to leave. My Dad also advised me to let him have it for now, as the moral thing to do.

Arminius, Yes, we're trying to get along amicable and sensibly and be reasonable. The guilt comes from doing what I had to for myself, at a cost to my son. But like they say on the airplane, fit your own oxygen mask before you fit your child's.

Elanorgold . . . I'm so sorry that you are having to experience and go through this at this time . . . even if it is for the best it is so very difficult.  I am thinking of your child . . . indeed challenging and rough.

I hope you are able to think decisions and plans through clearly and with the best intent for your child and yourself.

Caring thoughts are with you.

Elanorgold, I am so sorry to hear that you are going through this. Feel free to wondermail me if you want to vent, chat or whatever. 

While splitting up probably isn't the ideal situation for your son, there are also many times when sticking together isn't ideal for a child either!

I hope things transition as smoothly as possible Elanor, and you're able to achieve a certain degree of stability soon.

Oh, EG. I know you're trying to do what's best for your son, but he needs you, too. I admire that you're trying to make this amicable, but please don't throw too much away.

You're a good person and I don't think anyone wants to see you unhappy, so hopefully this is a step toward happiness again for you. Hit me up by PM any time.

Hi Eleanorgold

You've got "the smarts" but be careful re issues around child  custody. You mentioned you wanted your husband to have "greater custody"....? I'm not sure I follow you. I believe you should have "shared custody" meaning each parent sees the child for the same amount of time each week or whatever way it works out.

You might be very upset in the future if you find you are not seeing enough of your child when you wish to.  Or if you discover your ex provides more for your son than you can he may prefer to stay with his dad  rather than with you. I mean material goods, clothes, entertainment, good times  etc.

As Chansen has said : "Don't give too much away...."

Hi Elanorgold,

Fair enough.

Lawyers may not be necessary at this point in time.  It is quite possible to begin a mediation process.  This would essentially be you, your ex and a third-party mediator putting together an arrangement that works for everyone.  Instead of you and your ex paying for your own representation the two of you would  share the cost of the mediator

http://www.familylaw.lss.bc.ca/resources/fact_sheets/divorce.php

It would appear that the section on uncontested/undefended divorce is the one that is most applicable to your circumstance.  A mediator should be able to help you and your ex make the necessary arrangements that would allow the divorce to proceed.  If all ducks are in order neither yourself nor your ex would necessarily have to appear in court.  I'm not clear on how exactly that would work the mediator would be able to explain.

Divorce is much like a death and there will be a number of emotions that you can expect to experience.  Guilt, anger, resentment and the like.  It is important that knowing you are emotionally influenced you do not respond to the situation emotionally.

Because there are three of you to consider guilt becomes an eroding influence in determining what is fair.  If you truly want to be friends with your ex at the end of the day fairness is a bigger issue than guilt is.

Which, all things considered, is probably easier said than done.

I hope and trust that you will find good counsel as you walk this path.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Dear elanorgold, this is a hard path you will walk for the next little while. Do try and keep your child as protected from hard feelings between you as possible; this is much easier said than done. Walk with your godde. Wondermail me if you'd like a metaphorical shoulder upon which to cry, an ear in which to vent; I have walked the road, albeit many years ago. 

I have no advice to offer but just wanted to let you know that I'm sorry you're having a hard go of things right now. It sounds as though this isn't a rash decision though and as others have said you have a good head on your shoulders so I know things will work themselves out in the end. Thinking of you.

I don't have any advice to offer either Elanorgold, apart from what's been said above. You don't have to figure it all out at once, sometimes things just need time.


Time heals all and this too will pass.


Good luck.

Thank you so much everyone. It's good to have your support. I had a terrible night last night.

Hi Elanor.  I'm just dropping in to let you know that I'm thinking of you at this difficult time, too.  Be kind to yourself.

Ok I have some advice-make custody shared-equal or close to it. Otherwise YOU will be liable for child support. If custoday is equal-usually each parent does not pay other parennt child support.And YES your son does need both of you to be in his life.

Get a copy of his income tax filing for the last few years. Be very careful of shared debt ie credit cards-and shared bank accounts. People often do unkind things in anger or hurt.

Glad you have family for support!

Been there done that by the way Elanorgold-13 years ago now. A little different-I took the 3 children when I moved out. Ending the marriage in my case-was one of my bestter life choices-still it wasn't all a bed of roses.

Take care

Thanks Hilary. : )

Thanks Tabitha. Wondermailing you particulars.

I got a job today! Yay! One major hurdle scaled! I feel a significant ammount of relief.

WTG Elanorgold! I'd love to hear more about it - but only if you feel comfortable sharing.

Hi Elanorgold -  you wrote: "I am happy, scared, torn, excited, guilty, empowered, renewed, homeless, mostly unemployed, determined, anxious, optimistic, etc, etc. almost you name it. It's been quite a roller coaster so far, and there's a lot of working out to do yet." 

Sure sounds about normal for the circumstances - but now you're EMPLOYED - so that's a good step!  Congrats on that.

In reading your OP, I was about to suggest mediation, as I see RevJohn has done.  I can be extremely helpful. (edit - I meant to say "It can be extremely helpful"!  Not that I can't be  - but that's not quite what I meant to convey!!)

No advice to offer - but sending gentle thoughts your way.  My thought and prayers are with you and yours.  

Thinking of you tonight Elanor

Elonargold ...................   HUGS ........ lots of HUGS ...............

There is a lot of good advice here and I need not add any more......

I will be praying for all of you ...........  

I know some don't see any usefulness in prayer but I am amongst those that feel otherwise.

I too am here for you......

Rita

Elonargold, life sure has a way of rocking our boat doesn't it? I've always felt that when we find ourselves in crisis it's better to cling to the familiar and reliable rather than make too many changes that add to the trauma. Your family and child seem to be the constants here, cling to them for comfort and understanding and please reach out to us also whenever you need a place to vent. I'm sure you realize, the sensitive person that you are, that even though parents are hurting there's a little child that will be grieving and fearful also. Talking and writing are good releases for pent up anger, frustration and hurt. Our shoulders are broad and there are many here.

Of course I prefer to see marriages repaired and a healing take place. This requires two people to be committed to the change that is necessary in order to acheive a new result. It's extremely hard and intimate.  Everytime I hear of a marriage breaking up I think of this quote from the 1946 movie, "The Best Years Of Our Lives", the daughter wants to know why her mother and father have stayed together for so long without any problems.

Milly Stephenson answering while looking at her husband," We never had any trouble" "How many times have I told you I hated you and believed it in my heart? How many times have you said you were sick and tired of me: that we were all washed up? How many times have we had to fall in love all over again?"

Now I realize this may not be in the cards for you....just keep your options open and I will support you with wherever your road leads you.

For You:

Reluctance By Robert Frost

Out through the fields and the woods
   And over the walls I have wended;
I have climbed the hills of view
   And looked at the world, and descended;
I have come by the highway home,
   And lo, it is ended.
 
The leaves are all dead on the ground,
   Save those that the oak is keeping
To ravel them one by one
   And let them go scraping and creeping
Out over the crusted snow,
   When others are sleeping.
 
And the dead leaves lie huddled and still,
   No longer blown hither and thither;
The last lone aster is gone;
   The flowers of the witch hazel wither;
The heart is still aching to seek,
   But the feet question ‘Whither?’
 
Ah, when to the heart of man
   Was it ever less than a treason
To go with the drift of things,
   To yield with a grace to reason,
And bow and accept the end
   Of a love or a season?

Beautiful and fitting poem!

“My experience of life is that it is not divided up into genres; it’s a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky.”

― Alan Moore

"We are ancients
As ancient as the sun
We came from the ocean
Once our ancestral home
So that one day
We could all return
To our birthright
The great celestial dome

We are the children of the sun
Our journey's just begun
Sunflowers in our hair
We are the children of the sun
There is room for everyone
Sunflowers in our hair

Throughout the ages
Of iron, bronze, and stone
We marvelled at the night sky
And what may lie beyond
We burned offerings
To the elemental ones
Made sacrifices
For beauty, peace and love

We are the children of the sun
Our kingdom will come
Sunflowers in our hair
We are the children of the sun
Our carnival's begun
Our songs will fill the air

And you know it's time
To look for reasons why
Just reach up and touch the sky
To the heavens we'll ascend
We are the children of the sun
Our journey has begun

All the older children
Come out at night
Anaemic, soulless
Great hunger in their eyes
Unaware of the beauty
That sleeps tonight

And all the queen's horses
And all the king's men
Will never put these children back
Together again

Faith, hope, our charities
Greed, sloth, our enemies

We are the children of the sun
We are the children of the sun

-- Children of the Ancients, Dead Can Dance

"MY Spectre around me night and day
Like a wild beast guards my way;
My Emanation far within
Weeps incessantly for my sin.

‘A fathomless and boundless deep,
There we wander, there we weep;
On the hungry craving wind
My Spectre follows thee behind.

‘He scents thy footsteps in the snow
Wheresoever thou dost go,
Thro’ the wintry hail and rain.
When wilt thou return again?

’Dost thou not in pride and scorn
Fill with tempests all my morn,
And with jealousies and fears
Fill my pleasant nights with tears?

‘Seven of my sweet loves thy knife
Has bereavèd of their life.
Their marble tombs I built with tears,
And with cold and shuddering fears.

‘Seven more loves weep night and day
Round the tombs where my loves lay,
And seven more loves attend each night
Around my couch with torches bright.

‘And seven more loves in my bed
Crown with wine my mournful head,
Pitying and forgiving all
Thy transgressions great and small.

‘When wilt thou return and view
My loves, and them to life renew?
When wilt thou return and live?
When wilt thou pity as I forgive?’

‘O’er my sins thou sit and moan:
Hast thou no sins of thy own?
O’er my sins thou sit and weep,
And lull thy own sins fast asleep.

‘What transgressions I commit
Are for thy transgressions fit.
They thy harlots, thou their slave;
And my bed becomes their grave.

‘Never, never, I return:
Still for victory I burn.
Living, thee alone I’ll have;
And when dead I’ll be thy grave.

‘Thro’ the Heaven and Earth and Hell
Thou shalt never, quell:
I will fly and thou pursue:
Night and morn the flight renew.’

‘Poor, pale, pitiable form
That I follow in a storm;
Iron tears and groans of lead
Bind around my aching head.

‘Till I turn from Female love
And root up the Infernal Grove,
I shall never worthy be
To step into Eternity.

‘And, to end thy cruel mocks,
Annihilate thee on the rocks,
And another form create
To be subservient to my fate.

‘Let us agree to give up love,
And root up the Infernal Grove;
Then shall we return and see
The worlds of happy Eternity.

‘And throughout all Eternity
I forgive you, you forgive me.
As our dear Redeemer said:
“This the Wine, and this the Bread.”’

--William Blake's "Broken Love"

"you come out at night
that's when the energy comes
and the dark side's light
and the vampires roam
you strut your rasta wear
and your suicide poem
and a cross from a faith
that died before Jesus came
you're building a mystery

you live in a church
where you sleep with voodoo dolls
and you won't give up the search
for the ghosts in the halls
you wear sandals in the snow
and a smile that won't wash away
can you look out the window
without your shadow getting in the way
oh you're so beautiful
with an edge and a charm
but so careful
when I'm in your arms

cause you're working
building a mystery
holding on and holding it in
yeah you're working
building a mystery
and choosing so carefully

you woke up screaming aloud
a prayer from your secret god
you feed off our fears
and hold back your tears

give us a tantrum
and a know it all grin
just when we need one
when the evening's thin

oh you're a beautiful
a beautiful fucked up man
you're setting up your
razor wire shrine"

-- "Building a Mystery" by Sarah Mclachlan

Someone smashed my window
Broke into my brand new car
Last night
Caught my boyfriend looking
At another slender
Pair of thighs
Gotta make more money
Gotta get gotta get there faster than
The rest
Knock 'em off the ladder
If they even seem to
Stand a chance

The big picture
Gotta big white cloud
The big picture
Is starin' at me
Starin' at me

Why do I feel so threatened
That somebody else will
Take what's mine
Babe it's only rented
No one really owns the
Merchandise
What about what I want
Somehow it got lost somewhere
Inside

My mother's on my case
I told her it's my life
Well, she just died

The big picture
Gotta big white cloud
The big picture
Starin' at me
Starin' at me
The big picture
On a big blank wall
The big picture
Is starin' at me
Starin' at me

When I can see
I'll try again
I've got my paints
The big picture...

The big picture
Gotta big white cloud
The big picture
Starin' at me
Starin' at me
The big picture
On a big blank wall
The big picture
Is starin' at me
Starin' at me"

--Tori Amos' "The Big Picture"

Boy, Inna, what a poetic streak!

Eleanorgold, there isnt much that I could add to what's already been said. Just wanted to let you know how sorry I am that you're going through this. I've enjoyed some of our interactions in the past and wish you the best as you chart these waters.

LIke Rita, I'll say a few prayers for all involved.

So sorry to learn of your problems and life change, Elanorgold.  I have no advice to offer....other than take care of yourself.

Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.

I am sorry I missed this thread Elanor. I'll PM you.

So sorry to hear about this stressful time you are going thru.  I've been there too, and it was worth the pain of major life transition.  My wish is for you to come out the other side of this, happier, stronger and secure.  

Thanks Carolla, Yes maybe mediation. Don't know yet. We seem to be doing alright so far settling on things. I also could ammend my "homeless" statement to say I am sort of at home at Mom's. I'm welcome here, so that's a major help and so gratefully appreciated. I also have my son with me now, which is another great comfort.

Thanks Waterfall. Yes I think I saw The Best Years of our Lives, that scene sounds like one I saw. It was a shocking scene, and the daughter bursts into tears. I don't want to be that couple. Actually, I saw that not long before deciding to break up. I gathered so much information. Years worth, as I made my decision. It's a lovely poem, though I feel so much more springy that fallish. I guess my fall was earlier this year, when I had to give up the dream that I would be married to this man the rest of my life. That was when I mourned. And in fact, I left him partly as a loving act too, because I made him unhappy. It wasn't fair staying married, so I set him, and myself, free. And the bluebells bloom, and the trees are bright with new growth as I step forward into a bright dawn. I have had to muster strength I forgot I had, and discover new depths of it within myself. I am growing, and everything is new.

Inanna, Thanks for sharing Children of the Sun with everyone. Can't help but worship DCD still. I'll have to look up those other songs on Youtube. There's been a lot of songs this year! Whoa!! I Will Survive! Hey Hey!

Thanks RevSteven. Rita, Crazyheart, Somegal, Arm, Gecko, everybody. It's so nice to know you're all thinking of me, my Wonderfriends.

I'm sure I will Oui, Thank you.

And thank you to everyone who's wondermailed me and accepted my messages back. You're all special.

Ah, life's rich tapestry.

Just wandering through WC this morning and thought of you Elanor. Hope you're still doing well, coming to terms with everything and working things out as needed. We're all still here for you :)

Thanks Bethany. Things are going well. I'm settling in to my new job and liking it. 

My emotions are settling as well. I have had so much support from so many directions it really warms my heart and helps me so much. Strangers on line, relations I hardly ever talk to, old friends, new aquaintences.

Relations with my ex are proceeding amicably as we both strive towards mutual happiness and our son's best interest.  We both want to move on.

I am looking for my own place, and not able to be online at Mom's as much as I'd like, or I'd join in properly on WC again. I did see an irresistable question from Arminius though...

it's through the cracks that the light shines in

Elanorgold - it is good to hear from you again. I am glad to hear that things are amicable between you and your ex - may it continue that way! I hope you can find a great place for you to live in - and that will make it easier to spend more time with your son.

Sounds like the job is working out. Funny enough it wasn't that long ago you were wondering about  working differently and a chance to meet more people. Life does that sometimes!

Be patient and kind with yourself. Lots of changes and everything does not need to be done at once-Glad to see you are doing well in this transition

Wishing you an abundance of Hope, Peace, Joy, and Love this day, Elanorgold . . . thinking of you as you go through this difficult and challenging time while focusing on the good and positive in your life.

Hire a lawyer to tell you what you're entitled to in terms of property and support.  Then insist on it.  I take it you're not fighting over kids or anything.  The property issues are simple (all you need to be able to do to figure out who is entitled to what is usually just adding and subtracting).  If your spouse is not willing to come across with a settlement that closely adheres to the formulae then you should hire a lawyer to get it for you.  There are not a lot of arguments that can be mustered against the legislated equyalization of net family property.  You've been married a long time so if you are unemployed or underemployed you are entitled to support. Period. Separations are "no fault" these days.  

Don't think in terms of "not being able to afford a lawyer".  You can't afford not to have a lawyer.  Negotiate the separation agreement consistent with your legal entitlement and let the lawyer draw it for you.  You will never regret insisting that you obtain what you are entitled to obtain.  The separation agreement will protect you against further claims in the future if circumstances change (you win the lottery, he falls off a roof and can't work and wants support from you, etc.)

Elanor - my daughter is in the same situation - recently separated from her husband.  He remained in the house, she found a rental.  Joint custody.  The kids go spend half time at each location.  Dog stayed with him; cat came with her.  Kids have their home - swings, sandbox, neighbourhood friends.  Mommy's house is near enough for them to go to their same schools.   It's working out so far.  Lots of sadness.  He thinks that she will come back - she says it isn't going to happen.  Teenage daughter wants them together but realizes how unhappy everybody was.    Advice I gave her.  The same as Qwerty gives.  See a lawyer.  Find out your rights.  Insist upon them.  Keep records.  (ie they are supposed to share childcare expenses - she's been paying dental, sports, etc. - she wants a fair division.    Keep your chin up when things get hard.  I care.

Elanor, I would like to echo what seeler has said. I care too.  I'm around to listen if you need to talk.

Aww thanks everybody.

One thing I'm doing to focus on the good and positive is writting 4 things I'm grateful for in my journal every day.

I guess I'm pretty lucky that husband has seen the light of what I've done, and is working with me on it now instead of fighting it.

Hi Elanor,

I'm not on Wondercafe so much these days - so I've been reading through this thread and following what's been happening in your life.......

Although stressful, a separation can happen if both partners grow in different directions and wish to live their lives authentically.

As such, I see the "blaming game" as unproductive - far better just to admit that the differences can't be reconciled.

It's good to see that you and your husband are co-operating when it comes to your son - it's particularly good for the little one.....

I'm sure the time you spend apart will help resolve your feelings about your marriage one way or the other......

Whatever the outcome - I wish you well, Pagan Princess.

Yes the separation is the healthy thing to do, and we both acknowledge that. He has been quite good lately about not blaming. There is still a fair bit of stuff I need to get through it seems, judging by my sleeping pattern at present.

I call them the 3am blues!.......

Do what you can to stop the "monkey chatter" at this hour - it's amazing how just looking at the sun in the morning can change the nature of your feelings.

Thanks Pilrgim. 

Hi Everybody, more news! I got my own place! A nice, renovated, one bedroom appartment in a quiet part of the city, close to work, on the bus route, and I can have a cat there. My son and I expect to move in mid month. Nervous but excited! Not the cheapest of the places I viewed, but I think I will be comfortable there. Also really nice managers.

.

two GREAT posts Elanor!  I'm so glad to hear that you've got an apartment that makes you comfortable and a dream with a satisfying ending.

Hi Elanorgold:

Wishing you all the best in your new home and your new life. My good thoughts are with you.

Congratulations Elanorgold! That is very exciting! I'd love to hear more about your new place - what made you fall in love with it?