Ewww, major cringe factor here. I think most pedophiles are men, and I don't really know, but they seem to be mainly just interested in children, or weak looking youths. Very nearly too disgustung to even discuss. The priests tend to victimize boys most. I guess that makes them gay pedophiles. But it could just be that boys are more readily available to them than girls. Anyway, they seem to find the vulnerability and defenselessness of children an advantage. To me there is nothing worse on this earth.

The Catholic church apparantly once had the idea to put it's pedophiles on an island together, to keep them away from the children. Unfortunately that didn't go ahead and they got recycled back into constant contact with kids. 

I agree Elanorgold, it's disgusting.  I do find it easier to look at it from an almost scientific viewpoint.  Also, just because someone is a pedophile doesn't mean they have committed a crime.

I do wonder if there are more women pedophiles than what we are aware of but they are just better at not acting on impulses?  Possibly because women are sexually harassed more than men, it makes them emphasize with potential victims better?

Sorry for not responding to this thread, Chemgal - it's just hitting a little too close to home right now.

Somegal, that's completely understandable.  I think the topic needs to be brought up more in general, because the let them hang attitude doesn't work at preventing the problem.  I also realize that it's not something all can safely discuss.  I probably should have included a trigger warning or something, it didn't occur to me when I posted as I haven't seen that on WC before.

Sensitive topic for me too.  Not prepared to say much more than that.  I  once had an older woman tell me about the way she was abused by her RC priest - probably in the '40's - so it hasn't been just boys.  She quit church as soon as she could (after she left home), he went on to become a Bishop.

I haven't responded until now because I don't know much about the subject or, as far as I know, I have never personally known a pedophile.   When I was a young person there was one man in our village - a middle-aged man, single, living in a shack on the outskirts, related to several families in the village.   As we girls reached puberty we were warned to keep an eye on him.  

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In a small village, everybody attends every social function and mixes with everybody else. So when we were 13 or so, we started going to the dances at the legion. We would dance with him - he was a good dancer - but we never danced the last dance of the evening with him. And unless some boy was walking us home, we left in a group. Occasionally he would make suggestions about getting together or him walking us home. On these occasions we would be extra vigilant. I am quite sure that the other adults also watched him.
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As far as I know he never harmed anyone. I don't think of him as a pedophile. I don't think that he was interested in children. I think that he would have liked to have a girl friend, but was shy and socially awkward, and would have been intimidated by an adult female. Teenage girls were easier to approach.
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He died while I was still in my teens. The village joined with his sisters and their families at the funeral.

Predators count on society having an ick factor and the cycle of silence. The cycle of silence may be rooted in fear, shame, guilt, pain, anger, even just discomfort “talking about such things”… The victims of these predators can then feel a need or pressure to remain silent and the truth hides in the dark places.

Predators also count on our silence and our societal stereotypes. This makes society part of the cycle of abuse. It means there are things our society can do to help stop the cycle.

Our ick factors and our stereotypes are how they camouflage, blend in, are above suspicion, etc.

Anita Bryant was a name in the crusade portraying homosexuals as child molesters.  That debate has been heard from the Boy Scouts and other organizations who wished to keep homosexuals out. It has also been used by school boards, private citizens, the Catholic Church in the light of their scandal saying that is why gays should not be ordained.

As I said, the truth hides.

It is easier for it to be about them, the scary guy around the block or the gay person. The truth is that bedroom doors creak open in children’s own homes. The person who is cared about, trusted, “a part of the family” is most likely to be the abuser. It is mostly not the person pulling kids into cars and "stranger danger" who is the perpetrator. Victims can be silent (check the stats on how frequent it is for BOTH females and males by the time they are 18) Is it a sign that society is more comfortable with silence? In silence, ignorance breeds.

Our language poses a problem. Pedophilia and molestation are used in very different ways by professionals but we, as a society, use them interchangeably.  

Because of my training in areas of adult and child sexual assault, I do not tend to such words. I am not a psychologist and cannot diagnose what is deemed a psychological disorder  I can say “this is molestation”, though I do not use “molestation”. For me, it makes light of what is assault, abuse, rape… words like “incest” can also make it sound like something less… So, in the end I have not concerned myself with who the perpetrator is attracted to or what genitalia they have... I have concerned myself with victims of abuse and assault.

Our history, our prejudices and sterotypes (or their shadows)  can also pose a problem. When a male assaults a male child, society can tend to call that assault “homosexual”. Yet, I have not often heard it called “heterosexual” when a male assaults a female child. Why? Does it make light of the abuse? Does it normalize it? So, does the word “homosexual”, even after all these years, hold some ick or creepiness or seriousness hidden in it? Is there some sense of abnormality still hiding there?

Ask yourself how often you have heard “heterosexual” rape when an adult female is raped by an adult male?  We also do not tend to call it “heterosexual” assault when a female assaults a male child. Why?

We also know that people can prostitute or engage in sex with those they are not attracted to. So, although we know sexual activity may or may not indicate someone's orientation... we would like it to or try to force it to.

Referring to gender differences as being indicative of someone’s orientation, we know is incorrect, yet we subconsciously can still lean that way.

We also know that rape is not about sex. It is about power and control. So, if it is about power and control, why do we think a man raping a woman indicates that man is straight?  Why would we assume a woman raping a man indicates she is heterosexual?

When we, as a society, get past our assumptions, our prissyness, our guilting victims, our sterotypes, our prejudices, our crap ...we will be better off. When we respect our children and see them as equal human beings, with human rights. We will accept that like their adult counterparts theirs is rape, assault, abuse…. it will not be called “molestation” or anything less than an adults. It will also not about the perpetrators gender, their orientation, attraction…. or anything else. It will be the same as adult sexual assault, about power and control.

Off my soapbox now…..

Thanks SG.

Do you know much about the psychological disorder?  Are there even any estimated stats about how many pedophiles do end up molesting children?

Kay, that's really sad.

Seeler, even if he was interested in teenagers, I don't think that meets the criteria for pedophilia.  I doubt that nowadays the girls would be dancing with him though, at least not that young.

The understanding of this issue is complex and has not been fully communicated most of the time. The current societal view of pedofiles is a developing view.  The bumper stickers that read "Kill your local pedofile" is not helpful in the understanding of people.

Lets remember, that not that many years ago, less than 150 children were fair game. They were not children, chattels, put to work, exploited and 'abused' in more ways than sexually. The society has developed a view that says children must be protected and honoured.  Yet, there are still societies where the cultural norm does not protect all children and those not wanted are killed. 

Remember to that in some cultures the woman abused, has to be the one on defense as some assume she brought it on herself.  That view is not welcome in this society, though to tell the truth, the whispers still happen in some instances.

Saying Ick and ignoring it is not really good. Too many times I have encountered a person who has been abused, by men, by women, by dad, by cousin, by uncle. Often that person hides it until there comes a point it cannot any longer be hidden. Then, and in the case of childhood or teen abuse, when the person reaches 40 or 50 years of age, that which was hidden so long, comes bursting out. Counsel for these is necessary as the perpetrator is often by then, dead.  That is one reason that so many cases today, are reported to have occured in the 70's 80's or later. The people are now able to take the hidden and expose it.

The scientific body says there is no cure for a pedofile.  And there is no telling mark on the person or their behaviour that are obvious clues. I did the wedding, baptised the children, celebrated life with a man who was caught, arrested and jailed for abusing one of his very small children, live, on the internet.  The bile simply rises in ones' throat. 

Open discussion and dialogue will aleviate the false accusations, the assumptions that someone is 'not right.'  Today, a person accused is accepted as guilty until proven innocent, and even if that happens, the stigma of the accusation continues.  Knew a teacher, accused, and only at trial, did the two girls admit they made it all up because they thought he was mean to them.  He was totally innocent, and totally ruined in that community and profession.   Yes, lets talk about this, and lets debate how to cope with those who prey of the weak, regardless of the way that preying is done.

peace to you all.

Not all pedophiles do.  What helps them control themselves?

chemgal, I have named my bias. I worked with victims of assaults. Whether those who perpetrated those assaults were or were not suffering from the psychological disorder called pedophilia was for another to decide. I, therefore, did not extensively study pedophilia as a disorder or attraction because my work was with those who were victims and so my work was after an assault had taken place. My work was in understanding, advocating for, supporting... victims. The extent of my work with and related to perpetrators was limited to education and prevention and was not in treatment protocols, how one did not abuse, etc. The stats IMO will be misleading because we use language so loosely and so randomly...and we are ignorant. We assume all pedophiles abuse or will abuse. We asume that all abusers are in fact pedophiles. Until such time as we are prepared to delve deep into the ugliness and look it firmly in the eye (as well as our own ugliness as a society, etc.) I think we will live in fear, shame, guilt...and its silence and we will jump at shadows (stranger danger) and let people prey on our children and when they do, we will only see monsters and not human beings.

SG, I figured it was worth asking, as you are knowledgeable about related topics.

I think there's much that can be done from both sides - before someone abuses someone, as well as helping victims and preventing further abuse afterwards. 

No worries and no warning necessary. The title of the thread is warning enough for me. 

I want people to know that my lack of response on this thread is not a sign of me ignoring the topic or staying away because of the ick factor. I am reading this thread and will continue to do so. As some of you know, a member of my congregation was recently and has been charged with 4 counts relating to pedophilia. As a member of council and a Sunday School teacher, I have been very active in my congregations' response to the situation.

I think it takes a very strong person, with a strong stomach to deal with these issues face on. It is just too painful for many people, and victims to face, and I understand how it takes many years to face it sometimes. I tear up just thinking about it. 

I think pedophilia is a psychological disorder, and or a neurological defect/deformation, and is uncurable. From what little about psychology and neurology I have read, this is my stance at this point. 

I think there are much fewer female perpetrators, or that way inclined, because women have a different place in the sexual balance from men. Men are the hunters, in a manner of speaking, they are the impregnators (sorry that sounds really crass), but it makes sence to me that they are far more often the perpetrators of such instinct, if you can call it that. Faulty wiring mixed with biological drive. Men, mostly, seek out the weaker, women tend to seek out the stronger. The only case I can think of of a woman accused of pedophilia was a teacher with her teenage student, which as you said above Chemgal, doesn't really fit the criteria. Also women generally have the protective instinct when it comes to children. Historically, we looked after the kids while the men went hunting.

Then there's The Magdalen Launderies, where the nuns weren't gaining sexual pleasure out of their abuse of the girls, but rather superiority by sexually humiliating them. Again, disgusting. Very upsetting film. A film very worth having been made though, and I recommend it as education. One should be prepared though to be disturbed. I so feel for that rebel girl in the film, very much like the rebel girl in Twilight Zone: Evergreen. 

And we should not be called guilty for our difficulty with the subect. Not everyone can be so tough. Ignoring it makes people enablers, we are not ignoring it. 

I did not intend to be read as saying that a victim's difficulty is ignoring or enabling. The ability to talk about abuse should also not be seen as a sign of strength. Survival means one does what one must do to survive and that means, for some, not talking. I recall a lady saying she wanted to scream at everyone that she was raped, her not doing so was a sign of her strength. There is also selective talking, as in talking in safe places. I also did not intend to imply that a prudent position related to a personal or sesitive topic was anything less than prudent. There was, on Wondercafe, a time I chose prudence over speaking on a topic related to sexual abuse allegations because of its proximity to me. It is simply also a fact that societal silence and/or a victim's difficulty talking about it is a well honed and used tool of the abuser. 

SG, I appreciate your comments coming from a perspective that really is good to hear. Thanks.  And I have a question, that I hope is not seen as derailing this thread.

Do the victim's you have worked with, has there ever been a feeling of being abused again by the knowledge that for many who work with them, there is the belief the pedofiles are incurable?

My thinking here, is that if one is told "he/she won't do that again!" there may be a feeling of relief.  Yet, if there is knowledge that the person is very likely to reoffend, will the victim feel less hopeful for the future.  I know that a counsellor I consulted with told me that perpetrators of pedofilia have not one or two, but on average upwards of 50, yes 50 victims.  For the one person, a victim, I worked with, that in itself made her feel a bit better - more support for the fact - It was not her fault!

Ideas?

Matt81, As a technicality, in my mind, there are no perpetrators of pedophilia, (would we say perpetrators of heterosexuality because of the attraction to an opposite sex person?) There are, in my mind, perpetrators of abuse.... Every victim is different. For someone who thinks there may be 49 others, they may not feel alone. Another person will be devastated by that, that they could have stopped #32 or that they were not #50- the one who put an end to it. I have encountered those who accept their abuser as "sick" as well as those who are angry it is considered an "attraction" or "disorder". There are those who wish their abuser could be helped and those who hope we don't find a way to "treat" them, because they are unconvinced anything can or does help or they wish them dead. One needs to understand that in some cases there is a mixture of both hatred and love. The abuser is often known and loved. Part of certain types of abuse, even if it is not incest, is that the child may feel love toward their abuser. That the person may be "incurable" may result in grief. As I said, each survivor is a person and each comes with their own thoughts, feelings, etc....

Sometimes a person is referred to as a pedophile (which requires a diagnosis) upon arrest. That is most often because the charges laid do not indicate or prove, to police or media, an actual physical act of sexual assault. ie. possession of child porn, attempted luring, etc. What do you call this person? What can you write? There may be nothing on a computer hard drive, no victim alleging abuse that says the person has in person, physically abused or molested a child. People often then choose "pedophile" whether the person suffers pedophilia, NPD, BPD,sadomasochism, so what does one refer to them as? They may have a history of being abused and developed another mental health issue and not be a diagnosable pedophile.....I prefer predator if they have attempted to lure for sexual purposes. I also most often actually prefer some other words I cannot type here to "pedophile" in the absence of a diagnosis as such.

Predator is a good word, but one that isn't often used.  I'll try to use that one when it's most appropriate.  Thanks SG!

lol And yes, some of those other terms are useful as well.

I agree. Also abusers are different. Many (perhaps most) abusers of children do not prefer children. According to one major study of Priests who abuse, most only abused becasue they did not have the ability/access to adults.  Also as SG pointrs out many people who are abusers are actually sadists or something else. \

I suspect that children are targets of abusers because they are easier to abuse than adults, and in the case of boys, more accessible in non familal relationships.  That is why I suspect that the number of boys abused is greater or equal to the number of girls, even through men (who make up the majority of abusers)  will be more attracted to girls, and current studies say that girls are more likely to be abused, and more likely to report it.

   I have not read any studies saying so, but I assume many abusers target children, becaseu they want to cause the greatest hurt or pain to indviduals and society. Thus abusing a child fills both needs, relieveing the abuser of his or her  sense of powerlessness, lnowing the suffering they cause will endure through a lifetime.

What resources are there for pedophiles (not molesters, predators, etc.)?  If someone you were close to mentioned it was something they struggled with, would you have an idea of how to help?

Chemgal
One would need to understand that it is, like say someone said they were tempted to commit murder, or had urges to kill...that also is not something you talk through with friends or spouse. You don't think you or clergy can pray away. You would't think that you could look it up on the internet and cure or treat it at home. Some things requires more professional help. I would no more try to play doctor here than I would attempt a coronary bypass. So, I would recommend, advocate, push.... professional help.

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I think that was the case with the man I mentioned above who lived in my village and seemed to be very attracted to young teens (12, 13, and 14). He was intimidated by mature women and older teenage girls would just tell him to 'shove it', or laugh at him and call him a dirty old man.

Sharing something that I have shared elsewhere on this page.

Years ago, when I was in Grade 6, 7, 8,  my friends and I would go to the house of my best friend's relative.  The woman was a cousin or something of one of my friends parents.  She was "odd" -- she looked odd due to a genetic abnormality, but she was nice, rather quiet, in the background kind of person.  her husband was overly nice, a bit creepy as I remember..  We were encouraged to go over. We could drink there.  We did.  The guys would pitch a tent in the backyard and sleep over.  

Years later, when I thought how strange it was, i also remembered that there were hushed conversations about how creepy the guy was, and how the guys would joke about what occurred in the tent. They kinda joked about it, and didn't say much.  I realized as I aged, that there were favours expected in exchange for sleeping over.

Recently, I spent some time catching up with that friend.  I asked her about this person, and if my memories were right.  She said "yes", and that a sibling of hers was actually molested.  

So sad. 

The man is now dead.  The youth are all in their 50's.

Quiet, hushed conversations are not good.....

Parents know, if it seems odd that their kid is being allowed to crash at a place, odds are it. is.

Note:  I do not know if this person was a "pedophile" by definition, as I don't know what ages he went after. my sense is it was more about control and that he could control minors.  What I do know is that he was inappropriate, he did damage, he should have been charged 

With who though?

You hear about suicide hotlines.  Resources for parents at their limit.  Not much out there is targeted for pedophiles.  I'm sure some psychologists/psychiatrists would be great.  Thankfully, it's not something I've ever had to look for, so maybe I'm wrong.  I just have a strong suspicion that finding the right professional help might not be so easy.

sorry ... this topic is too sensitive for me....

I would be lashing out in a harsh way and not out of reason or good common sense.

Thankfully there are persons that are gifted with helping those on both sides of the issue.   I find myself woefully lacking in ability and even moreso in even wanting to understand a pedophile.    I don't want to understand them.... or help them .... and especially not love them .... even christian style .... whatever that is supposed to mean.  I will leave this to those who can and should.

There you go ..... that is honestly where I am at ..... and I am not saying it is right...

Rita

SG thank you for your response.  It is a helpful perspective.  What seems evident is that in many cases, the abusers have been abused themselves.  Thus there is a pepetrated cycle of  of violence.  And that abuse may be sexual, physical and psychological.  Can it be stopped?

Here's what I mean: at one school here, the staff had to call the police because a sexual predator was on one side of the chain link fence attempting to lure the grade 1 & 2 students to come to him.  Yes him. This person had a known history of being abused.  The police came and he resisted and it becamse a lock-down and a violent event.  The luring person was a grade 8 student from the same school.  Now, because he is labelled, he is special needs and the school apparently cannot eject him.  So, the abused young man, who is now a demonstrated abuser, (both in the school and in the community)  is in the school population,  with the very ones who are his next potential victims. 

My question becomes:  Is there a way to help this young person who at 13 or 14 years of age is in this place?  Or, will society "write him off" and allow the cycle of abuse continue?  It is painful, really painful to watch this  continue. 

Good one Rita. 

Shocking and awful Matt. He is so young, and so messed up. I think he should be removed from society. Beyond that I don't know. 

I think cases like yours Pinga are disquietingly common. I knew a girl who visited a house like that as a kid and was scarred by it. 

I have been thinking about this thread since it began, and thinking yesterday of how in ancient history, and not so anciently for the first nations, and other cultures, girls were (and still are in some places) married off as soon as they reached puberty, ages 12 and 13. This being considdered normal, and they would begin having babies of their own. Did any of those men find it distasteful, and prefer to wait til the girls were 16 or 18? 

Then there's issues of women's attractiveness, the baby face, the shaved legs like a prepubescent girl, who ever started that one? Bleached blonde hair also denotes childishness, because hair is often very pale in childhood and darkens with maturity. 

I remembered the movie The Innocents yesterday, which is about a governess who takes charge of two children in a big creepy house where a woman killed herself, her abusive boyfriend also died, and the two haunt the house.

The movie has been interpreted as that the governess has inapropriate feelings toward the boy and works subconciously to get him alone. She believes the children have been possessed by the dead couple, and she desperately wants to save the boy, who she feels is at the greatest risk. Interpretation at the end of whether she is the boy's saviour or not is up to the viewer. 

It's a very Hitchcock-like film, very absorbing and chilling. I saw it at 15 and it had a profound effect on me. 

Yes that is true, but what is also true is that many non abusers have also been abused as children. 

The cycle of violence and the cycle of abuse are just myths.   It was developed by abiusers because abusers who are caught discovered that they could avoid all or part of the consequences for their abusive actions, by admitting to being abused. 

There are no recent studies that indicate those who abuse, were abused at a greater rate than those who do not abuse.

What this "myth" or unproven concept does  is to add to the harm of those who are abused. It stigmatises them, causes fear of victims,  and it prevents them from healing as they are afraid to address it by talking to others.  Also by silencing victims, it enables society to ignore how many children, and others are abused, 

Rita, I don't think our feelings are wrong, and it's certainly understandable.  I just think it's important to not stand in the way of the ones who are capable of helping.

It's a myth that has been stated enough, that I think most people accept it.  Are there any recent studies that show there's no significant difference?

Alex, there is current research pointing to truth in cycle of abuse and also research that says there is no truth and it is weaseling from responsibility. With research one can often take your pick. I know the damage and potential damage from abuse and I feel I can accept a cycle of abuse theory without it being true of all peoples or even a majority... If it can lead to or contribute to all sorts of potentials problems, then why would I exclude this type?                                                                                                                                          I feel I can do so without presenting myself that I am blaming victims, excusing perpetrators and without stirring fear of survivors as "potential abusers". I feel a need to try to understand abuse (thus abusers as well as victims) and to hope that there is a help found for abusers, if only so there are no more victims of that abuse.

I don't have strong feelings about the possibility that being abused as a child increases the chances that you will be an abuser.  However, many people take on the behaviors that they became familiar with in childhood, so I suspect that it a factor sometimes.  I think of people who find it hard to express genuine emotions who were raised in an emotionally cold home.

Hearing the above differing opinions, I thought about this : I have known people who have been abused and move along, so to speak, and are fine and do not themselves abuse. yet, I have also seen many, many abusers who when the research on them is done, have been abused.  It is not a 100% thing one way or another.  Could it be, that with good help the abuse victim can move on, not forgetting, but learning to cope so that he/she does not abuse others?  The current talk on bullying is that people who were bullied become bullies themselves.  I see that all the time, when they grow up and buy big things, like Hummers, so they can bully people in little cars on the road.  Or is bully, abuser, a learned practise that one always has?

Can anyone reference a study which proves or indicates that there  is such a thing as a cycle of violence/sex abuse/ abuse?  The only ones that I know of  have been  discredited. 

The scientific method is suppose to indicate an ability to predict what will happen. ie IF x and y happens than we know z is likely to follow,

What I believe is that we have cultures and sub cultures that support  abuse and rape. Those cultures that have higher level of supports for it, will see more of it.   Often that is what is mistaken for a cycle. The culture causes both the child and the parent to be abusers.  A culture that supports rape, and  a culture that supports the conditions for abuse (patriarachy, no questioning of authority, enfornced silence on sexuality)

This certainly explains and predicts what will happen in institutions for disabled children. Culture predicts and explains why abuse happens. Culture also lays the responsibilty for stopping abuse at the community level. As oppose to just the individual.

We need to look and listen for  the aspects of our culture that supports raping children and promotes abuse against any group.  (Just as university students did, when they pointed out and stopped pro teen  rape chants during frosh week.

A&E has a a weekly TV program that promotes using rape (and the threat of it) as a way of educating and correcting the behaviour of children. (it's on just after Duck Dynasty) http://www.aetv.com/beyond-scared-straight/  

I believe that not only it condones child rape, and shows how we tolerate rape inside insitiutions, but it sends out the message to potential abusers, that threating children with rape is good for children

.  And if it is OK for the state, (ie police) to use rape than so can others.

You likely know even more people that you know who have been abused. It's just that they have not told you about it.

Antedotal evidence is a good place to being looking at a problem, but it is not solid evidence.  ANtedotal evidence is different for different people. I have know a few people who were abused as children, and none of them abuse and are repulsed by the idea.  May I than say, that all people who are abused as children, will never abuse as adults.  AFter all that is my antedotal evidence. Is it better or worse than your antedotal evidence.

That type of study can't ethically be done.

That isn't to say there isn't a correlation, and I wouldn't be surprised if there is, as some observational studies indicate.

I have lurked here and have wanted to say something. When I have found it difficult to express what I was thinking, someone like SG has expressed it. This is such a complex issue. I often wish that the world was a simple as those who think in black and white would have us believe it is. I'm not saying anyone here is thinking in black and white terms. I see people who are struggling to understand a difficult issue. Like it or not, pedophiles are people. They are often nice people who attract children because children like and trust them. Sad but true. As a colleague of mine said, it would be so much easier if they had horns, green tails and a tongue that dragged on the ground. Unfortunately, they do not. They often blend in. There are many different kinds of sex offenders. Some use force, some say they are teaching children to love. There are other types as well. Having said that, I am not making what they do okay. I am just trying to understand. Yes, some abusers have most definitely been abused, and become abusers. They have often grown up in some kind of chaos or dysfunction. Some have not been abused, and are arguably born that way. I do believe there is a culture that supports sex abuse and oppression. I also believe there is a place for personal responsibility. Someone upthread said that 13 or 14 year old offenders need to be removed from society. Actually, that is when there is the biggest possibility for change. If a child of that age is offending against others and gets good treatment, they can change. I am sure I have more to say. I have worked with victims and likely offenders because of my work. What I have learned is that all are human, and all life has value. Some lives challenge that belief. Some lives do need to be protected from others. ------ I apologize for my single paragraph. For some reason I can't make paragraphs on this computer......  I am sure I have more thoughts on this issue.....

Donnie Snook a (now former)  Saint John councillor and Salavtion Army minister was sentenced to 18 years this week for abusing children. Most of his victims, were clients of a Christan after school program for children at risk, 

He and his family blames his abusive behaviour on the "cycle " theory.  In a case of revictimisation by the abuser he and his family  is  now warning the community that his victims will abuse other children, and that they (not him) should be forced into "therapy" Donnie is claiming he will do whatever he can to help them. (and we know his track record)

IMHo their theology of sex shaming(between adults), and forcing innocent kids to do what they think is right is part of the problem. Add to that that Donnie displays characteristics of sociopathy and narcissm, during the trial. He made porn with many of his victims, and was very proud aabout his sexual conquests. The porn he made continues to be distributed by other abusers on the net.   

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/donnie-snook-sentenced-to-18...

The court previously heard how Snook gave his victims alcohol and marijuana at his home, allowed them to watch pornography, and offered them financial "incentives" and other rewards for sexual activity. He also encouraged older children to sexually interact with younger children.

Some suffered single incidents, while others were subjected to years of routine abuse.

Alex I agree with you on this one. The man is not taking responsibility and is blaming the cycle inappropriately. In my opinion, even if someone is part of the cycle, they do not get to use that as an excuse. They need to use it to come to a place of understanding, then move to healing and changing their behaviour.

My main concern is that the theory of a cycle is being used to further victimise his victims.(and other people who were abused as children)  I can imagine npeople who believe this now refusing to associate with them, Refusing to hire, and refusing to date them.

If we were to say other groups of people were likely to sexually abuse children it would demand proof.  The "cycle"thory is one adopted from spousal abuse studies. Yet so many of those study also showed the role of cultural, and how that influences mens views towards women and violence towards women.

As the expert in the trial said  it is not know what the likely hood of sexual abuse victims becoming abusers.

With a 1/3 of boys being abused, it looks more likely that victims are less likely to abuse. From what I understand developing empathy is key. And while Snook claims to have empathy, he has none.        It was his theology and his culture, and perhaps biology that is responsible for his lack of empathy, not his alledged abuse.

And regarding victimised girls growing up to be abusers, it has never been studiied. Howver his sister who comes from the same culture, and has the same theology also lacks any signs of having empathy. WHich again lends to the believ that culture and theology are important tools that either devolope empathy in the individual, or blocks it.

To be clear, my view is that many abusers have been victimized themselves. I do not for a second think that a majority of victims become abusers. There's a difference.

I am wondering if the opposite might be true - that the majority of abusers have, at an earlier time in their lives, been victims?

I think if there were some way to identify pedophiles so visibly it would create more problems.  They would become scapegoats (as they already often are) for people who abuse children, whether or not they committed any crime.

I'm sure most people have dark thoughts at times.  I'm not comfortable with vilifying people for it, even when I get an ick feeling knowing there are pedophiles.