I'm confused Crazyheart.  I'm not a lesbian, and maybe I'm not understanding something.

When you talk about all the wedding stuff, I don't see why lesbians would miss out on anything.  Were you referring to before same sex marriages were legal?

I see no reason why lesbians can't have a stagette and shower, or go to a wedding show.  The decorations and favors' for stagettes might be a little different (penis straws might not be the first choice) but there are other options out their even if they are more intended for a stag, so what? The same with renting out a hall, places are happy to take your money!

I've taken dance lessons, gone out dancing, and even taught.  There were dance lessons where I am fairy sure everyone was heterosexual, but I learned the leads part.  Why would it be a problem for lesbians (whether one leads the other follows, both follow or both lead).  At an intro lesson once, there were two guys who I suspect were gay (but I could be wrong) started off together, and when we rotated one continued as a lead, the other as a follow.

I could see in some places where holding hands and kissing in public might be an issue but hopefully that's continuing to change!

 Some would have separate friends, and could each have their own stagette.  Some mutual friends could go to both.  Most stagettes and stags that I've known of aren't on the same night, so it would be similar.

Stag and does are also common, they could just make it a stagette²  or some similar title.

I'm a little confused.  Some of this seems to assume that a woman who is lesbian would be looking to the life experiences of some (not all) heterosexual women as kind of the gold standard of what might be wanted in life.

I can't speak for anyone else of any orientation.  I can only speak for myself - and I would honestly say that there are very few traditional heterosexual life experiences that would be my own personal choice.  My life is on an entirely different path and I'm quite happy with that different path.  The experiences of women who are heterosexual are not my role model.  That doesn't mean that I don't love and admire my heterosexual friends - who are also very unique individuals - just that I don't feel a need to be like them or have the same experiences.

I do believe that all persons in a society should have the same choices and that includes the choice of marriage.  But marriage is not and never will be my choice.  I believe in commitment (for myself and the person that I'm with if I'm ever that fortunate) but how that commitment is made and the traditions that surround that commitment will likely be fairly unique.  Another woman who is lesbian might feel quite differently than I do about marriage and traditions around getting married - yikes and hopefully I won't fall in love with her lol!!

Crazyheart I hope that doesn't sound like a criticism.  It's not meant that way at all.  Just pondering one or two of your questions (mostly around marriage stuff) and sharing my own personal perspective at this moment in time..

And not meaning to focus only on the marriage stuff.  I do feel sad that I live in a city where gay couples have been beaten up for holding hands in public.  One couple just quietly walking home from a special birthday dinner out.  I really hope to see that kind of prejudice (and violence) change in my lifetime.  People should be free to be themselves as a couple in public.  Where I live we have a long ways to go toward that goal.

TL

Thank you for your responses everyone and in the first  four posts some of my assumptions have been proven wrong.

I assumed that married and engaged couples ( straight or gay) want the same thing., Thank you for explaining this.

It makes me realize that assumptions are not always what one thinks.

Crazyheart - I know that you are looking for lesbian responses so perhaps I should 'but out', because I'm straight.  

I look through your list of things that you wonder if lesbian people might miss out on:

I remember working in an office setting and the excitement when one of the girls came in showing off her engagement right - everybody gathering around oohing and awing.   I never saw much point in it.   I would hear some girls almost appologizing if their stone was small or the ring quite plain.  I also knew girls (myself included but a generation earlier) who choose not to have money spent on an engagement ring.  As an anquaintance put it, her boy friend asked "which would you rather have: a ring or a new fridge for our first home together?"  She choose the fridge.   So that is one thing I wouldn't miss.  

The wedding showers - if one of my lesbian friends announced to me and the others in our group (book club, writer's group, card group) that she was getting married, I would certainly plan a wedding shower for her.   And a few years later, if they decided to have a family I would host a baby shower.  

Bridal shows - it seems to me when we were planning Seelergirl's weddings (first one didn't take) it was her and a friend, or her and me and her future mil.  Very few men in the room.   I don't think a lesbian couple would even be noticed. 

Renting a hall - I can't see it as an issue, unless you want to have it in the church hall of some denominations (but if you were having it in our church hall there would be not problem).   Just phone and book for the Smith/Brown wedding. 

Dancing together - this might be a problem for gay couples, but two women?   It seems to me that I've often seen two women dancing together.  It's a way to get up on the floor if you've gone stag and nobody asks you.  Among seniors where widows outnumber men, and seem to be healthier longer it is almost the norm to see women dancing together.   I wouldn't think twice if I were at a dance and saw two women dancing together.  On the other hand, if I walked into a bar where there were just women, I might wonder if I were in the wrong place.   Besides with many of the dances (ie line dancing) its hard to know who is dancing with who.

Holding hands, kissing in public.  I've never been much of a fan of public displays of hetrosexual couples either.  

AbMartin - some things are none of your business. 

Not to mention he's making assumptions about lesbians that are largely based on male-oriented porn.

Mendalla

That's too bad.  It always makes me smile when I see a senior couple holding hands.  I'm not a fan of public displays that go too far, a kick kiss goodbye or something doesn't bother me though.  Groping usually not, but once I went into a store that was fairly empty.  When the cashier turned around to grab something the lady in front of me grabbed the butt of her partner.  They were in about their 60s.  I couldn't help but smile.  After they paid, she turned around and realized they weren't alone!  She was pretty embarrassed and apologized to me, he thought it was pretty funny and I was doing my best to not crack up.  My reaction would have been the same had it been a same sex couple.

Sorry for going off topic, back to the discussion!

Abraham Martin, I should have stated at the beginning that this is a respectful thread. If it isn't I will ask Admin to delete it. So watch your ps and qs please.

As chemgal said, PDAs are fine within reason. I have no problem with any couple of any orientation holdings hands, kissing, being discreetly affectionate, etc. However, when it starts amounting to public foreplay, I think that a line has been crossed. Those boundaries can change with setting, though. Something that's appropriate at a club may not be in church; something that's appropriate at a hedonist resort would not be at Disney; and so on.

That said, I do find that same sex couples get more notice when they engage in PDAs and are more likely to get a negative reaction to such. Society will catch up, I'm sure, but it's a long road still. I'll confess that even I tend to look twice when I see a gay or lesbian PDA, not because I have a negative reaction but because it's still rather unusual to see.

Mendalla

I think I stated that wrong.  No, I don't have a problem with simple hand holding as you walk along the street, or sit in a restaurant or at a lecture of worship service or wherever. Actually, I sometimes grab my husband's hand, or that of a friend of either sex when we meet and greet each other or to share a special moment.  Nor do I object to an asexual hug of greeting or an arm around the shoulders to offer support.   Nor a quick peck of a kiss. 

I guess its the more sexual displays in public that I object to.  The teenagers walking, not hand in hand, but intertwined with each other.   The sitting on each others laps when there are lots of chairs nearby.  The long drawn out kisses - more suited for the privacy of the bedroom, or the back seat of a car, than at the mall or on the sidewalk.  

So go ahead and hold hands, pat someone's shoulder, squeeze their knee, give them a quick hug - whether a guy or a girl, or whether in relationship or just friends.

I really echo your post Tiger Lily. Nicely said.

 I also do not have an interest in following the traditional heterosexual norm. My partner and I intentionally did not get married when legally able to. We had been together many years when equal marriage came into be and didn’t and don’t feel that being legally married would somehow validate our love and commitment. I am glad, however, that same sex couples now have that choice.

 My comments are my personal perspective – realizing that lesbians (all GLBT people), while sharing common themes are also as varied as individuals as are heterosexual folks.

Crazyheart – if you are wondering if I feel as though I miss out on things that many straight women take for granted – generally no. I love my life, I love expressing diversity and individualism. That being said – (and I preface these comments by saying that my parents and family are very supportive and just needed ‘time’ in the following situations) --- Do I wish that I had been able to feel comfortable enough to share my enthusiasm and love with my parents (and family) for the woman I would share my life with, do I wish that a few years later when I came out to my parents that they had shared the excitement of our love that my partner and I did, do I wish that when I told my parents that we were in the process of exploring becoming parents that they had been supportive and said ‘how wonderful’ instead of the hurtful things that they did say, do I wish that I could go for a walk holding hands with my partner anywhere at any time, do I wish that it sometimes doesn’t feel like a risk to mention that my partner is a woman? Yes to all of the above.

However, for the most part, I do not feel as though I miss out on many of the traditional aspects of ‘straight’ culture. Many of us in the queer community create our own rituals, our own ways of celebrating our relationships, our own ‘chosen’ family.

I appreciate this discussion, thanks to others for your comments.

Just because they're getting married doesn't mean they have the same friends. Let the friends of woman A give her a party, and let the friends of woman B give a party for her. Anyone who is a friend of both, hey, double invites. Ain't nothin' wrong with that.

Or just do a "Stag & Doe" sort of thing for both. Not sure what you'd call it, though. "Doe & Doe" doesn't sound right. Like some dialogue out of The SImpsons or something .

Mendalla

My wife and I aren't into PDAs. It simply isn't a part of her culture. O sure we'll hold hands, I'll sometimes put my arm around her shoulders, and she sometimes slips her hand under my arm, but that's about it. We exchange a quick kiss when saying goodbye, but leave the real kissing action for home.

... all this assuming that they care to have a party like this at all.  I'm hetero-, and I don't see myself having a stagette.  I don't think that it's a gay/straight issue at all.

Good point Hilary.

I was thinking again about this topic.  I really appreciate you starting this discussion Crazyheart.

Tiger Lily,

Just want you to know that I'm one of those that voted you up. You seem so gentle and quiet - and here you are being a leading light in openly answering Crazyheart's question.

Myst,

So, it's not the "trappings"  of being heterosexual that you feel you miss out on, but the acceptance and happiness of family in particular and society in general?

I think you're right - that's the REAL issue.

Makes me think that's where the emphasis by gay and straight alike should be - rather than on marriage,etc.

And that gets back to our individual capacity to love, and sadly that's often limited.

crazyheart,

I get that you were asking about lesbians, because you come from a female perspective and that is where there is a bridge. It could present the same for gay men and they should not feel excluded.

I am perhaps going to be too honest, once again. I try not to use heterosexual couples as a benchmark, but you know what, it is hard. Our society is still heterocentric. From music videos, to television, to movies, to novels.... I get to look at my love alongside love presented and what I see is primarily straight love. Is that what I aim for? Not really, but it is what was taught to me of love and sex, etc. Others tend to measure using that same yardstick of what they know.

My love is different and others need reminded, and we need to remember, that different does not mean better or worse. Just some examples: a)The fact that women earn less still in Canada than men, two women partnered may mean less money, fewer holidays, etc in a home and it is not that others get more gifts or stuff because they are loved more.
b) Lesbian bed death can be a reality and because straight couples say "they must be getting it somewhere or from somoneone", it does not make it so. I could go on and on.

People, until told otherwise, can "assume" you are straight. My wife hates people seeing her ring and then getting, "What does your husband do?" She feels almost invisible. I do not get that. I am a stereotypical dyke looking person who does not look like I have a man stashed at home. When we have the same last name, people assume I am just her queer sister, not her spouse.

What do I miss? Some things it is not so much that you miss, unless you had another life, but that you miss never having had. For me, it is not stag parties, announcements... it is that somehow my love is still in so many ways closeted no matter how OUT we are.  Sometimes, just because it is not safe.

Being able to hold hands across a table. Not face sucking, but simply walking hand in hand. I miss her not being able to put her head on my shoulder. When those moments happen, from laughing to throwing snow or leaves... those "I need to kiss you" moments (just a peck even)... knowing I cannot always do so without putting her at risk of ridicule, scorn or danger.  I miss being able do what I see other couples do without a second thought. Asking her to slow dance just because music is playing is among them (we love to dance). We have to know the venue, the guests, blah blah blah.

I miss spontaneity!

We head to "family" and gay areas just to be able to "be" our authentic selves. I miss being able to "be" without having to think about it first.

What bothers me most, breaks my heart? Not feeling safe to say "I love you" just anyplace and anytime, knowing life is fleeting and comes without promises when you say instead "see you later". For that, I have no words for that.

BTW I have never been intimidated or timid or uncomfortable to speak about my sexuality. LMAO

Thank you for all the replies. Stevie, these were some of the things that I was thinking about. I am so glad that you dropped by.

How to live without spontaneity.

I was just thinking the same thing, crazyheart!

It's as much a part of me as breathing. It's how I am - I couldn't be otherwise.

SG,

I can see what you mean - yes, it would be the biggest cross to bear.

Not feeling you can be spontaneous obviously goes against your natural inclination, but when your spontaneity slips through (as in "between the sheets") you're lots of fun.  

Yet, as with everything, there are both good and bad consequences. My spontaneity has caused heaps of problems. Misunderstandings, flippant comments that others have found hurtful.............

PilgrimsProgress, I am SOOOO spontaneous. Sometimes, too much so. I say how I feel or what I think when it can be the worst thing to do.

Woooooo  I'm shakin' all over.

Hey thanks for your comments above, Pilgrim.  This is a good topic.  Lots to think about.  And more and more to think about as I read all of the posts.

Thanks CH for starting the thread - I read it when first posted & am honoured to return this evening to read the thoughtful replies - I give thanks for all of you who have shared your perspectives.   For me, this thread falls into the 'courageous conversation' category - questions wondered but often not asked out loud - but now answered with such clarity and sensitivity that understanding continues to be built.  Thanks all for adding to my life in this way.

I asked my wife what she "missed" knowing she has been in both types of relationships (though not with men for about 25 years).  I thought she would need time to think. She said instantly, "not being able to touch your face in public".

It may be that I am still not well, but this brought tears.

You and your wife want to touch each other, hold each other, kiss each other in public. Beyond safety issues, which are important... well, what I'm trying to say is, why don't you just go for it. Who cares what other people say. Why let their scorn stop you. Your love should be more powerful than their derision.

 Thank-you for both the posts and the language to describe the losses / misses.

My sense is this has shifted or is shifting to be more inclusive. I would think Myst in a large city on the west coast might be more accepted(?not sure of right word?), then say, someone in a town where it isn't clear (or is conservative).

Thoughts -- how is the shift happening?  is it regional?

I would say it is shifting. But I cannot say it is regional or even about population. It may be about exposure.

My most awkward/ dangerous points were, in fact,  in Toronto and suburbs and not here in rural near north territory. In the city, there was a confrontation in a grocey store as I looked for a specific soup and I was confronted about looking at someone's girlfriends ass. As I left a bar in Whitby (now closed) with my wife and her friend, we had a car load of guys circling the block as we walked to the car and throwing eggs and screaming vulgarities at us, etc.

We could, with all the time we have been here in a rural town where everyone knows us and we are openly gay,  probably "get away" with more. Sheesh, that sounds so wrong, but I did not change it as that is how  it feels.

The problem is that it is about gaining other people's "acceptance", seeking and waiting for others to be accepting. Nobody has to accept that a man and a woman touch. Nobody has to be "ready for it" or "ready to discuss it"....

Do we know they are ready to see expressions of our love or are they simply accepting of the fact we are as long as it is not "in their face"? I do not know. Is it tolerant or accepting or affirming?

People tend to say, "just do it", but have they touched and heard "how &^%$#$* gross" or worse? Have they ever been hauled out of a bar and beaten into an ICU for simply lighting a female bartenders cigarette?  I have been held as someone attempted to rape my partner in front of me, because we were gay. "Going for it", is not something that comes natural after stuff like that.

I have to know it will be accepted. Why? Love, it means you do not take risks that could hurt someone you love.   

I cannot put her in a place where someone hurts her, because of her safety being important to me. I am a teddy bear now, but used to be, know I still can be very much so a grizzly. So,  I am also keenly aware of the risk to the safety of the person who chooses to hurt my wife in my presence.

Sorry to hear that you have been through those things SG. Although I have never experienced anything like them, there was a point in history when my wife and I, being an interracial couple,  would have been seen in much the same way by all too many. Thankfully, couples before us stood up to such treatment. Because they were bold enough to love each other regardless of the reaction of intolerant others, we are free now, within the law of course, to enjoy each others love as we please. This is why I hate to hear that you and your wife are not showing your love due to intimidation. The fact that things like you describe are still happening today leads me to want to encourage you to show your love all the more. Now, you will note that I did take into consideration in my comments possible safety issues. I certainly understand if you want to protect the well-being of your wife and yourself.

I appreciated your above post MorningCalm. I am truly thankful for all of those courageous, brave people who have stood up for justice and fairness and made life for me that much easier. 

I think about location/regional differences as well Pinga. I have to say in my life In Vancouver I feel quite safe and compared to many others, I feel I have an ‘easy’ life. My partner and I often comment on how we feel so mainstream … Caucasian, middle class, with a house, child, dog, attend church, the occasional symphony concert, we stand on the soccer sidelines, volunteer for school pizza days, and so on ….. There are other places in Canada where I would not feel as safe or at least as comfortable (having heard stories from queer folks living elsewhere). And clearly there are other places in the world that would be horrific.

That is not to say that there aren’t risks even in Vancouver. I think risk is a big part of living an openly queer life (even for some trying to live a closeted life). Compared to what other queer folks have experienced, I have felt very fortunate over the years sharing my life with my partner. And yet, for those who haven’t really thought of this before …. In a world where one is assumed to be straight, where just about everything revolves around heterocentric culture I regularly find I am making quick decisions – to be silent, to be open, to be vague ….when a service person comes to the house do I feel comfortable having them realize we are a lesbian couple; do I say ‘she’ referring to my partner with other parents at the playground; do I try to explain the situation to the medical specialist (yes, an M.D.) who just didn’t seem to understand that my partner was a woman but I noted on my medical form that I had given birth; do I say the ‘partner’ word when chatting over lunch in the staff room at work; and how do I word my phrases with the car mechanic, the hair stylist, the store clerk, and on and on.

I remember how being ‘out’ took on a new life when we had a baby. Many, many people asked “who is the mother”? We made a decision right from the start that we would be open and honest about being a two mom family to anyone who asked – we wanted to be genuine and open, to be proud role models for our child. So in the swimming pool with an infant, at the drugstore, at the coffee shop, at the playground, … every person who asked “who is the mother?” we had to ‘come out’ saying ‘we both are’. It may not seem like a big deal, but having to constantly make decisions, constantly size up encounters, wondering what the reaction might be … it’s a regular experience … and I sometimes wonder what it would be like if it was always okay to just ‘be’ and not be thinking about my wording and the possible responses from others (even though usually the responses are just fine).

I share this as ‘food for thought’ not because I think I have a tough life at all … as I say, I actually think I have it pretty easy compared to so many others and I truly feel blessed.

We cannot hide our love. In fact, it is so obvious (without kissing or holding hands) that our love's presence has changed many people's feelings about homosexuality. We have definitely changed the environment for anyone who comes out in this area. I am proud to say we have stood up and made the path better for those who follow after us, including working for equal marriage.

We show our love, where we can safely do so we do it by dancing together (at work parties and friend's weddings), kissing (at New Year's parties we throw or are invited to) and by holding hands (walking in the woods or outside of church), etc.

Is it a perfect world? No. Could it be better? Yes. I think it is made better by talking about it. If someone sees me kiss my wife, they might go " &^^%$# gross". If they hear me speak of my wife, they understand and they in turn also dream, desire, and work for a day when people who really and truly love each other can kiss anyplace, anytime without fear.

Thank you, Myst, so many do not relaize how people have to "read" a situation just to "be".

wow, not around for a while and come back to "A Personal Question for Lesbians" almost made me feel very important. lol

it's funny, my partner and i joke that we are more "white picket fence" than all of my other siblings and most of our friends.  mostly because of being home bodies, a bit more reserved, we drink occasionally but live in an area that views pot as a food group (not judging friends who smoke, just makes me feel like throwing up), we go to church (which oddly counts us as a minority among our granola social justice enviroment saving group.), have a young child and i'm at home with her... but that's more because i'm an artist and can be at home and feel lucky to have that option.

when we got married the first time, it was in a big downtown toronto church - their first gay wedding although just the beginning of many more for it is an Affirming Congregation but this was in 1995... we had a potluck reception and dance in the church hall.  my partners brother did the flowers and i think the bill for the whole thing was under  $500.

we got married a second time when i was pregnant with our daughter because although the laws had changed and we could legally marry, the laws about children were still catching up and unless we married, my partner would have had to legally "adopt" our child.  and our small, rural united church congregation threw us our only baby shower and we were showered in very traditional baby shower gifts made by the senior women of the congregation (who continue to dote on our wee one).

when we took our contest-winning trip to Grand Cayman in November, one of the things we did was buy wedding bands... we'd had some years ago that had stretched beyond help and decided to buy "prettier" ones... and we did and i love them.  i didn't buy it so that it would make me the same as hetero friends, i bought it cause i happen to have a liking for sparkly things (i'm one part raven...)

we are an odd mix of being out but not too out and very out all at the same time.  mail would actually reach us if it said "the girls" and our town (although there are many "girls" around - we for some reason get called that).  because of the story in the Homemakers magazine about us, the local paper also mentioned it as well.  we are known as our daughters mom's in her school and are active there. 

so all this to say - i have a life that is happy and whole and i don't go looking for anyone else's definition of normal or right or wrong.  but at the same time, i know for some, we live a really "traditional" life...

i know the one time a good friend of mine (and a gay man) and i were walking down a road in toronto and holding hands and then we stopped because we were both uncomfortable with the idea that we were "passing" as a hetero couple.  it didn't feel authentic although the feeling behind it surely was.

ok, i've probably rambled long enough but the topic title was like a beacon...

Oh, one thing we've run into which would be funny if we both weren't verging on menopause and feeling a bit grumpy about it - our daughter recently had surgery and THREE times someone said to her, "isn't it nice that your mommy and nana came with you today?"  I always corrected and said, nope, two moms.  But really what I wanted to do was clarify who they thought was the NANA!

LMAO Gaiagrrl, who is Nana matters, eh?  

We are pretty white picket fence church types too.

Around here, "the boys" are a couple about 80 and "the girls" are in their late 60's. We get our names because of an awareness and real understanding of my gender issues. Isn't it odd how that happens? The two couples actually expressed liking that we get our names, as our persons are more vital than our bio gender being the same.

I do not want people to think my life is not blessed. It is! We are very out in town, at work, at church.... generally without any problems and when they arise they are not serious.
I am queer pulpit supply and it means leaving the comfort of "home" and I do not do closets even on Sundays  LOL
I do not say "Welcome. I am ___ and I am gay", but I do not hide who I am either. Local congregations have been great. I do not need people's approval to feel right, whole or normal, but being affirmed is good. Talking about where it is missing helps.
 

This has been such an inspiring thread. Myst will contest to the fact that I was so stressed after I posted it. I was ready to have Admin considering deleting it.

But while I was dealing with pneumonia or whatever it is, I thought, Why can't everyone of any sexual orientation benefit from WonderCafe in what ever way that they want. without fear.

So this leads me to the second part. What can I do or what can the collective "we" do to make your journey as GLBTQ easier. Can we do anything or is that another assumption that I need to have struck down?

"We cannot hide our love" ... that is such a good line SG. It is so true. My partner and I are often asked "are you sisters?" -- it could be because we are both cute :-), round, are around the same short-ish height, and have short hair - but most of our lesbian couple friends are also asked that, even partners who do not look anything at all alike. I think it's the chemistry of a couple that throws people off. Some people of course can and do read lesbian couple, others who do not or 'would' not read that think well what else can explain the connection I am sensing between those two.

Good to see you here gaiagrrl, glad you found this thread.

I also want to add here - up thread Pilgrims mentioned Tiger Lily being a leading light sharing openly on this thread. I also want to acknowledge this (a bit belatedly). I just want you to know that I admire you Tiger Lily and this beautiful, courageous, freeing journey you have been on the past few years.

Myst we were posting at the same time.

Awww........thanks Myst.  That means a lot to me.  You have been an amazing friend on this journey.

I didn't mention it on this thread (and I started this process before this thread began) but it just happens that this is when I am coming out to my parents.  I had sent them a letter and have been waiting to hear from them.

I don't think that I have words for what I am feeling right now.  Or words for what I feel I have missed in my life.  I feel loss but I don't know how to describe that.  And I also feel a sense of joy and relief.   And wow can I ever eat a lot of chocolate when I'm stressed lol.

 TL

TigerLily, I also acknowledge the journey you have been and are on.

Myst, I am dark haired and eyed. My wife is blonde with blue eyes. We do share a last name, not for any other reason than one last named sucked, so we get "are you __'s sister?" I laugh that it is eaither a move to have you out yourself without asking or because they do indeed sense some "connection" that we are closer than just friends... My wife once said to a lady, "it feels like we have been loving each other since birth but only ___ years."

Crazyheart, we (collectively and personally) could be less heterocentric. This is what most my lectures are on, how we are and what we can do. Synopsis: do not assume children will be or adults are straight among all the diverse sexualities that exist. 
Example: I have a wedding to go to        Are you a friend of the bride or the groom?
Don't use "real men" or "real women" to mean straight. Be aware that the movies, tv shows, books, magazines, advertising... features mostly hetero examples. Know that by not recognizing diverse sexualities in education policies that people are excluded from the education process and protection from discrimination, bullying and harassment. Teach gender equity. Teach that tolerance and non harassment are group norms, faggot should not simply be the worst insult one can think to hurl and "that's gay" implies gay means it sucks, is ridiculous, is lame.... It can only devalue and insult. Homophobic and exclusionary language priviledges a heterocentrism. Discuss it. I groan at schools who did not want to discuss "gay" so they restrict all affection between students. Assume 10% or so are gay and that among the other 90% that there are those who have tried it, love someone who is gay, etc. Don't address mail tor letters home to Mr and Mrs X. Be prepared to respond to anti-gay stuff as you would to racist or sexist stuff. Get informed. Learn LGBTQ terminology. Question your stereotypes. Look into the absence of language on sexual diversity. Look into whether it is talked about in your schools. Example: Is homosexuality only mentioned in disease prevention? Look at things with new eyes, like doctors forms, my wife on an ob/gyn form was asked if she had intercourse recently and if I had any erectile dysfunction issues.

Ah possum, I'm sorry you were ill, but if everyone who had pneumonia had such a liberating thought, maybe illness wouldn't be such a bad thing?

As regards to your question, "what can we do about it?" I wish to tentatively raise something with the LBGT community.

Does all the bridge -building have to be one way?

Even with the best of intentions it's often not easy to be initially accepting in practice as it is in theory.

I'll give you an example. I have a niece who came out as a lesbian and she remarked that I often visited her sisters, but not her and her partner. (They live in another city.)

I thought about it, and wondered why. I realised that it would be a new experience for me - would I say something that they took offence at?

Would my relationship with my niece be different?

To be honest some things took getting used to. (Bearing in mind that I'm 60+ and grew up in a culture that still isn't as accepting as Canada).

It was clearly awkward for them and me - if, say, I walked into the kitchen and they were hugging - it was a race to see if they would pull away quickly, or I would look away.

Now ever since my niece was a little toddler she has always kissed me on the lips on greeting. Now, when I go to kiss her on the lips, she turns her cheek.

Is this because kissing for her now has sexual connotations?

At first her father wouldn't accept it - but with time, he did. ("She's  my daughter - and you don't stop loving your child".)

In Oz you can't marry, but in the state where she lives, you can have a civil ceremony. My elderly mother (her grandmother) told her elderly homophobic "boyfriend" that she would be attending - and would he come as her partner?

First it was "no way" - then it was "I suppose I'd better go - you'll get lost in a strange city".

John was in hospital having chemo at the time - so I couldn't attend. But, when I asked Mum's boyfriend did he enjoy the service, he said he did and "what nice young women they were".

I guess what I'm trying to say here - is that often time is required. Now, I readily understand from the LBGBT community's point of view that that might be exasperating and unfair.

It is - but just like they needed time themselves to acept their sexuality - so does their family, friends, and society in general.

The other point I'd like to make is that by acting in a compassionate and warm way, you're much more likely gain acceptance and respect  than responding aggressively.

Our own myst highlights this for me every time she posts.

I hope I haven't caused offence here to the LGBT community - this isn't my intention.

Just sometimes I feel to bring about improvement it needs a spade to be called a bloody shovel.

Yes!  :3  One cannot expect to require of another person to act as they act, think as they think, feel as they feel, especially since that other person hasn't been living inside the other person's head.  In fact, I think, a lot of problems occur when someone's communication requires, right there and right then, the other person to act as they act, think as they think, feel as they feel.

This applies to all areas of life.  I recall times when I've been ranting aboot something, just wanting to rant, and I run across people offering "Why don't you try this? and "why don't you try that?" when, really, what has worked for someone won't necessarily work for someone outsdie of themselves and especially since what worked for that person, I think, is dependent on that person's experiences.

Implied in all being with someone else is a question:  will you listen to me?  Not, in order for me to feel comfortable with you, you have to believe as I believe, but, will you be present, share these moments with me?  Not caring aboot how other people think or requiring other people to share your point of view are both failing strategies in life, imho.

Life is the process of learning how to be a human being.  It isn't aboot not stumbling or not making mistakes or even never ever hurting people.  The hurting will happen, the stumbling will happen, the mistakes will happen...and everything else that makes this life worthwhile.

 My wife and I will be together 27 years on St. Patricks Day.  Before the law changed in Canada it really angered me that we couldn't get married.  But then the law changed and our United Church Minister married us in his back yard on a beautiful sunny day in June with all of our friends there and we had a wonderful wedding.  Exactly as I wanted it.  We had two lovely daughters as well.  Having children makes it impossible to be in the closet as we can't be ashamed of our relationship as we can't show that there is anything wrong with it.  Thus, we had to make a deal when they were born that we were just going to go places as a family and just let people deal.  And you know what... people have dealt.  The only times that I can remember facing discrimination was on the basis of race and that was when we were in the United States because we are an bi-racial family (our daughters are black and we are white) and there are places in the US where it is still very bad for inter-racial families.  So now we just choose not to go there.  

My wife and I are not really into PDA but if I was with a man I don't think that I would be into PDA.  We hug, but I hug our best friends who are a man and woman couple.  We are completely accepted in our church as a married couple and in my Presbytery we both sit as members.  She is the archivist and I am one of the representatives of our church.  After we were legally married I added my wife's name to my last name after which the woman who does the registration is very careful to make sure that both of my last names are on my name tag.  I think that is very respectful of our relationship.

All of the Ministers of our Presbytery that I know are very supportive of our relationship and I have never had trouble with any of them, in fact I do remember a couple of incidents in the church with one particular right wing individual who wanted the Minister to minister to us because of being lesbian and he was basically told off.

So all in all, there are many things that I could ask the Spirit to lift from my shoulders but being Lesbian is not one.  I have a wonderful wife who has stood by my side since we were young students and has remained there while we became professional women and mothers.  I have lovely daughters and we as a family are well accepted in our community.  Things look pretty good from this side of the fence.

Stevie you should move to Vancouver Island.  We're much nicer over here.

Gotta love Vancouver Island!

I have had some interesting conversations at church recently for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, we are exploring becoming an Affirming Congregation. Because of this there have been lots of conversations and questions come up.

Secondly, because a friend of mine and fellow congregant has recently come out as a cross-dresser. This has come as a huge surprise to a lot of people - myself included. Some people, not feeling comfortable approaching him, have approached myself and some of his other friends instead. There has been a real sense of curiousity around it - nothing negative, just genuine curiousity. A couple of weeks ago, after church, a woman approached a mutual friend and myself asking about the people who had approached us. She wanted to ensure that people had said or implied nothing negative about our friend or else, "heads would roll!" Walking with my friend through this experience has been really eye-opening for me. Right now, church is one of the only places that he can truly be himself.

Over the past couple of years I have been trying to be less hetero-centric in my view - in particular with my work with children. If the topic of future marriage comes up, I tell them that when they grow up I hope that they will fall in love with and marry a wonderful man or woman. If they say, "that's so gay" in a disparaging way, I call them on it - sometimes asking them what the word gay means and sometimes mentioning that some of my best friends are gay. When the kids ask me questions, I try to answer them as honestly as I can.

Awww thanks for the kind words possum. You make some important points. Building bridges from both sides – yes. It takes time – yes. However, the power differential between marginalized/discriminated against groups and the dominant groups is such that the side with more resources and power may need to do more building than the other.

I also want to say that while my style is to make sure everyone feels comfortable and yes I'm full of care and compassion - my style doesn't change the world. If it weren't for the courageous, vocal, assertive ones, acceptance of queer folks would not nearly be where we are today.

Edit to add that while I was taking my time posting others posted ... so in my response possum refers to Pilgrims Progress's post.

Myst,

I have spent some time trying to reply "doing a Rev John" - i.e. breaking down your post into  manageable portions - but I've made the discovery that your "edit" has made that too difficult for a geekless type like me.

So.........

I agree with what you say about the power differential - so, yes, in this instance, the bridge building has to be led by the hetero's. (Also gratified that you take my point about "both sides" and "time".)

As for style, I concede that "trail blazers" have to be vocal, courageous and assertive.

(Just look at Oz's own Germaine Greer when it comes to feminism.)

But once that trail has been torched, IMO, a caring and compassionate style is more affective.

(At least, it is with me. But I admit to being heavily influenced by my Nana - who said something that stays with me long after her death.)

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

As someone once said, "it's difficult to think loving thoughts, when you're being attacked."