"How do sexuality and marriage go together?"
When they go together it is because sexuality is a part of your being and hopefully you bring it into the marriage...  I differentiate between sex and sexuality. One can be celibate and still have a sexuality. Sexuality is something inate.

"Do you think people should wait for sex until marriage?"
If they want to.

"Until they're in a committed relationship (and if so, what does committed mean)?"
For me, it is more important that it is consentual, not forced, not coerced, not manipulated... and that they are informed, practical, educated, prepared... that it is safe.... rather than whether they are committed.

"Or should they wait at all"
I would advise waiting until it meets some stuff listed above.

How does the Bible influence/guide my views? Well, as much as I love the Bible... there is nothing about AIDS, clamydia or other STDs in there. So, in that aspect, it influences me little. I find I do disagree with concubines, sex slaves, incest, sex with those not of age to consent...

I do not interpret the Bible to prohibit pre-marital sexual activities, up to and including sexual intercourse.

Hi efficient-cause,

Sexuality is a bit more nuanced that sex is it not?

If so then I think that the one is not mutually exclusive of the other and that combining the two has the potential to be a bit of the best of both worlds.

I have no objection to people waiting until they are married to have sex together.  I mean, if you are building a relationship solely on how well the other handles that marriage wouldn't last anyway.  Some practice before hand might seem like a prudent idea but learning to drive standard is nothing like learning to drive an automatic and even standard differs from standard.  You can learn the fundamentals of driving on any old beater but if you want to drive your ride well you would have to practice with that ride.

So I don't think practicing on a variety of makes is actually practice.  That is more like test driving and there are things to consider when you are buying a vehicle.  Like can you afford it, what is the maintenance.  How long will it last.  That sort of thing.

A lot of people rush.  They get more car than they can afford and end up paying more than they wanted to and feeling ripped off later.

If you want a vehicle that lasts then you have to know, not only how to drive it but how to maintain it.  Rushing into decisions like sex and marriage doesn't tend to produce good results.

Man if I could have gotten the sisters deal that Jacob got that would have been sweet.  And I only would have had to give their dad 14 years of labour on his goat farm.  I'd have done 14 years each!  Their dad liked me I'm sure I could have swung a deal if he actually raised goats.  Best of all, they wouldn't have had any say in the matter. 

Why can't we stick up for that tradition when it comes to marriage?

Adam and Eve apparently were made for each other but never married.

The Bible is kind of all over the place when it comes to actual marriage arrangement.  In light of that, or maybe it is in spite of that, God takes the commitment to marry rather seriously. 

Jacob didn't actually want both sisters, he just wanted the younger one if he hadn't been hammered on the wedding night he might have noticed the switch (Being drunk at weddings is also another strange tradition that we don't want to defend much).  So when he began to ignore the older sister God got heavy and started to interfere.  Just to teach him a lesson about his responsibilities I expect.

So I think that whole "this will be like a dream" notion needs to be done away with.  Marriage is a commitment and needs to be taken seriously.

I do not disagree with scripture.  I do, however; disagree with literalistic interpretations of scripture and general ignorance about the scope of marriage from Genesis to Revelation.

Since I believe that the Bible is pro-relationship I think that it lifts us the value of all components to relationship.  Commitment and promise appear to be a foundation for some of the seriously fun and recreational dimensions.  Treating someone as a back-scratcher when you have an itch is shallow and ultimately unfulfilling.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Some people who are married have sex.  Some people had sex before they were married and then got married and no longer have sex.

Depends.

Committed means different things to different people.  For some a marriage means committment for some a marriage is only a business contract.

Wait for what?

I don't read the Bible with committment or saying that sex before marriage is wrong for a man.  The Bible does say that sex before marriage is wrong for a woman.

This is true however it is better to practice on an old beater so you can drive over sidewalk making turns and a few more nicks and scratches on an old beater would blend in whereas I just about died when I got a scratch on my new car.  Also, insurance is cheaper on old beater.  Better that you crash the old beater than a new car.  Then when you are a good driver buy a new car that you like.  So borrowing from your example it is better to practice on someone you don't love so that you don't hurt someone you love later.

Extrapalating further from your metaphor some people will never be able to afford a new car just like some people will never have a good, loving relationship.  People will need to drive old beaters to get to work and rather than being alone people will make love to people who aren't their true love but who will do for now and maybe things will get better and maybe they won't.  I think there is even a song to that affect "if you can't love the one you want...love the one you are with.."

And this is just one illustration where the Bible is totally sexist when it comes to marriage and sex.  It was not a sweet deal for Leah or Rachel.

Let's look at Judah's daughter-in-law Tamar.  Judah was looking for extra curricular sex out of his marriage.  He mistook his daughter-in-law for a hooker.  When his daughter-in-law became pregnant he wanted her put to death because it was okay for him to have extra curricular sex and he was married.  Tamar was single and it was not okay for her to have extra curricular sex.

David and Bathsheba were both married.  David was not in danger of being stoned only Bathsheba.  The woman the Pharisees caught in adultery and brought to Jesus was being stoned by herself.   The man was free to run away. 

When men's wives got too old for them to want anymore all they had to do was accuse them of adultery and the priest would make a poison for them and they would die.

David and Solomon had hundreds of wives.  David took over all King Saul's wives and concubines.  If you thought Jacob had a sweet deal what about these guys?

Lots of wives are ignored by their husbands.  I don't think David could have visited his wives all once within a year.  God did not get heavy handed.  He called David his friend and a man after his own heart.  I watched on Global National that since the recession started there has been a 300% increase in the use of women's shelters accross the country.  God is not getting heavy handed with the guys who are beating up their wives.

Actually, I would lift up Hosea's relationship with his wife.  He was certain that most of the children they had were not his because he married a prostitute.  God told him to marry the prostitute.

At any rate I do like the car metaphor.  My new car is now nine years old.  I think of it as my old car and will soon trade it in for a new model.  Caring for this car has made me a better car owner.  This is the first car I have kept for more than a year.  The other ones I only kept for three months or so.  My next car will also be new and I want a different model not only a new model.  This is much like marriage.  After the sexual partners get old people start looking at younger models and want the new car and will trade in their old car because they do not want to drive the old car anymore, they do not want to make oil changes anymore, or insure the old car anymore.

After you get married (in a traditional, opposite-sex marriage), then it's good, healthy, and Biblical to have sex with your spouse.

Yes. 

They should wait until they're married.

Yes. Until they're married.

100%.

Disagree with what? Sex? Not within marriage.

"After you get married (in a traditional, opposite-sex marriage)", - Jubilee every thread I go on, you  offend me. What if it was your daughter or your son or a grandchild that was  GLBQ, how would you support them -or would you kick them out of your life. Shame on you!!!!!

Sex and marriage??. It may  not be a big isse at that point...I hear married men only need 12 condoms a year.....

IT is tempting to link sex and marriage.  But of course we are told to resist temptation.

IMO we have made idols of both sex and marriage is both society and church.  The church really shouldn't care (or be involved in?) people's legal marital status. The church's only concern should be the quality of and committment to the relationship.  Of course the latter is hard to see at a glance so we have to trust the people involved to tell us.

Sex should be linked only to a commited relationship.  THat may or may not involve a service of celebration which may or may not include a legal piece of paper.  And the genders of the people involved is totally, wholly and in all other ways irrelevant.

Biblically and historically the focus on marriage in conjunction with sex has everything to do with property rights and inheritance, not on the quality of the relationship.

I think someone should wait until they are ready, informed and safe. For myself personally it has to be with someone I love. You can love someone without wanting to spend the rest of your life with them though. Whether they are married has nothing to do with it.

GordW, why should sex only be in a commited relationship?

somegirl,

BEcause sex is a thing of intimacy.  One form of the idolatry of sex denies this.  As a thing of great intimacy it neeeds a safe place.  Hopefully a commited relationship provides the safety. 

I really don't understand where you are coming from.  I think that you need to explain it a little more clearly.  How is sex a form of idolatry?  That makes no sense to me.  Why is it wrong to be intimate with a person that one is not in a committed relationship with?  A committed relationship is in no way a guarentee of safety and safety can be found in many places outside of a committed relationship. 

ANything can be a form of idolatry, it is a question of focus.  ANd so I maintain that popular culture has made an idol of sex, often free sex.

The intimacy of sex is IMO best served within a commited relationship.  At its best it is a giving of oneself to another.  OTOH, I know that some don't give it tht level of importance. 

GordW,

I respect that is your opinion and you, like eveyone, are entitiled to your own opinion.

Personally, I disagree that sex should only take place within a committed relationship.

That said, for me, I have always been in a relationship. It works for me. It may not work for everyone. What is safe/beneficial for me may not be safe/beneficial for others.  I remember telling someone I thought I was gay, but I didn't think I could ___(insert sex act). For me, falling in love answered my questions. I miraculously felt safe falling in love with wonder. It is a wonder. For someone else, they may have needed to discover whether they could or could not before permitting themselves to fall in love. In fact, I think I understand them more than I understand my own actions. I have always thought it far easier to get naked while protected than be naked and vulnerable.

I think you can be ready for sex. You can be ready for commitment. I do not think they all march hand in hand all the time. What you are ready for should be examined by you and you should be able to be brutally honest with yourself and others.

There are people who need to....for lack of a better word... experiment or explore. Their sexuality is not a given and committing to someone, of either gender,  is foolish in the face of that.

Last weekend, I spent time with a 26 year old man who talked to me about his feelings that he is gay or at least a bisexual. He also has a fiance. Will he tell her? No. Why? He cares for her deeply. Will he commit to her? Most likely. Will this committment offer either of them safety? I seriously doubt it. I do not believe he will effectively be able to lead a life that is not authentic to him. I think it will eventually end horribly. Can there be intimacy (true intimacy, not naked intimacy) without honesty and openness?  

A promise of commitment means nothing more than the person who offers it makes it mean. One can promise the moon to get you between the sheets. It means what the one offering it determines it to mean. It does not matter if it is a monogamous commitment, an engaged commitment, a living together one or even a marital commitment... it is not the promise of the commitment that is really meaningful, it is the person who will make it meaningful.

Every day people commit to quitting smoking, losing weight, trying harder....

Like I said, I do not see sex, intimacy, commitment to go hand in hand.... Perhaps it is by my unique perspective. I have been in relationships where there was sex (one sided) and tons of commitment but no real intimacy. I was never viewed naked. I was not touched... I was not ready regardless of the level of commitment.

Intimacy, true intimacy, requires far more than just nakedness, sex or even a commitment with or without paperwork. 

Intimacy is not always a thing of sex and sex is not always a thing of intimacy.

Stevie G

.

I'd encourage them to change their ways, and suggest they contact Exodus International for help. As for your being offended, that's your choice. I do not seek to offend you, but neither will I hold back from speaking the truth with love.

i gave up being offended by jubilee awhile ago... jubilee is just a joke, imho.

besides, jesus himself had to put up with people like jubilee who bandied around THIER beliefs as the only 'good' beliefs, so i figure that i'm closer to jesus by having to deal with people like jubilee on a forum like this. 

jesus loves you even though you say such awful things, jubilee.  i pray for people like you all the time... may god forgive you and help you.

ok, I haven't read  the whole thread..but revjohn...thank-you for making me laugh out loud tonight

Didn't we just have this thread or something like it :)?

Of course, the two go together to the extent that you generally marry someone that you want to have sex with (although there are marriages where sex is or becomes secondary to other interests). However, sex can be a part of a non-married relationship, although I do believe that a certain amount of commitment should be there, at least to the point where there is mutual caring and respect. Wild, promiscuous sex can be fun, but it generally involves treating your partners as biological sex toys and not necessarily being prepared to stick with the other person should something unforeseen happen. And all of this is just as valid for the GLBT folks as for heterosexuals (sorry, Jubilee, but same sex marriage is here to stay). The Bible is not the only influence on my views but, as in many things, it is one influence. I was raised as a liberal Christian and that still colours my spiritual and moral compass to some extent. However, it is quite definitely a non-literal approach.

Sorry Jubilee.  You claim you are speaking the truth with love. What a load of crap.

But now to jump into the conversation.

Somegirl and I had a chat about the commitment thing a while ago and I, personally, had not looked at sex with her view.  I know for me things like commitment, love and consent are important.  Somegirl views things a little differently and my personal feeling is that whatever happens between fully informed and consenting adults is their business and not really mine.  For me I would need the security of a commited relationship. 

I also don't feel that a marriage license is a prerequisite for sex.  In fact I do have some concern that delaying sex for marriage makes marriage a bit TOO much about sex.  I would like to think that people are getting married for reasons that go well beyond the bedroom and delaying sex for marriage makes sex more important that perhaps it should be (not that it isn't important!).

Ultimately one's decision about sex (among consenting adults...kids are not included in this discussion) is an intensely personal decision and I don't believe the church or anybody outside of one's partner has a role in that decision.  My only exception is the situation where the sex act could hurt a third party i.e.  a spouse in the case of an affair or a potential conceived but unwanted child.  In that case the parties have an obligation to consider the potential to hurt a third party....the sex has become irresponsible and hurtful.

There is an excellent book called "Just sex" which explores Christian sexual ethics which has an excellent framework. 

For me, when we insist on commitment we do so without thinking that it might be heterocentric.

What I mean is we simply "assume" that the sex might be not so good and you deal with that, but what if the sex is soul-stealing, revolting... what if you realize you made the biggest mistake of your life?

I spent last Sunday with a group of women. They were mostly 60+ and all lesbians. All "good girls" who got married as virgins and then went "ick". Their discovery of self was not like mine, they hurt innocent people along the way never meaning to.

I also know that I was not the norm in that I dated women and slept with women before making a genuine or psuedo-commitment. The joke is that lesbians do not really date. They bring a U-Haul on the second date. They think commitment must happen if they want sex to happen. They are sharing a hosue and expenses knowing each other for a month.  It means broken commitments instead of dating that simply did not work out.

I pretty much had sex within a committed relationship. Not that it was tons. I have been with 5 women  in my life. The first three there was 2 cases of U-haul second dates and another that there was 6 months of courtship and then commitment before sex. That one was a big heartbreaker and I tried to have sex without commitment. I had one one-night stand that lasted 7 1/2 years and the other is at 9 years and counting....

I cannot do sex without commitment well, but I understand those who can, who prefer it, who need it that way.

I have a friend who is not prepared to live a gay life. They know 100% they are gay. They simply cannot have a man live with them. They have decided that because they will not live the life, come out, then they cannot make a commitment... That it is not one they can make and to lie would be wrong. Yet, they also cannot live a life of celibacy... So, they have sex without a commitment.

So, I get it.

Good points Stevie.  You are so correct when you point out that many of us are coming at this from a very traditional point of view.  It is very helpful when you remind us the others live different journeys.