Honestly, I don't know how many homosexuals you know, because there is not a single... NOT ONE homosexual I know who has been sexually abused.
Abusing children is a crime. One person loving another is not. Who is being harmed by one man loving another (or vice versa)? Its not hypocritical, its just logic.

Gays don't hurt other people. Pedophiles do. 'nuff said.

Thats exactly the idea. Well said bilandre!

I am straight and an abuse survivor.

The primary difference between pedophilia and homosexuality is the principle of informed and mature consent. Homosexuality is between consenting adults.

Pedophilia is between one or more adults and children who are too young to give proper consent to sexual activity. Pedophilia exploits trust, weakness, and innocence.Thus it is vile and illegal.

The difference is extreme. They are totally different subjects.

Also, Gays are not all alike. They are as diverse as heterosexuals.

In Christ,
Stephen

Studies have shown that there is a disproportionite amount of pedophiles within the homosexual community. That alone should bring alarm bells.

The person who said that homosexuals don't hurt people is clearly not in touch with reality, and I not saying this in regards to abuse, I am saying this as a general statement. Let's look at Chris Kempling, Scott Brockie, the Knights of Columbus in B.C. and so on. There are many examples of how they have hurt people in so many ways. We can look at the US too, most recently, Emily Brooker, who was told by her professor at Missouri State Un. that he wanted them to do a project on promiting homosexual foster homes and adoption. As well, he told them they have to write a letter to the Missouri Legislature in support of homosexual adoption, which she refused. As a Christian, she refused to do so and then was brought in front of an ethics committee for a level 3 grievance, the highest level at that university. She is currently conducting a lawsuit against the university.

So no, homosexuals do hurt people in their activism and their demands that Christians accept them and their actions as right.

How can anyone hurt others by demanding to be accepted? Everyone, no matter if they're straight, gay, black, white, christian, or muslim, just wants to be accepted. Why should you deny that right to anyone, if you're not denyed that right?

ABC,

Could you please link to a source for those studies?

I do agree that there is alot of focus on homosexual pedophilia in the media, but I have never seen a study done that actually takes all of reality into account instead of just what the media enjoys reporting.

Thanks

I was at a united church meeting once where my wife and I and our newborn daughter were the only straight people there (well, I don't know for sure if our daughter is straight or not...). Wasn't any pro-gay meeting or anything, just some random committee. "Breeders" they called us. We all had a good laugh.

I have to say, it was the most comforting, relaxing meeting I have been at. I know not all gays are good people (not all straight people are either) but they were very gentle with our child and I would have been happy to leave her with any of them. I know they're not going to go all pedophile on her.

Gay, straight doesn't matter. It's the person who counts.

Here is an article that doesn't deal with pedophelia directly, but is well footnoted concerning studies about homosexuality. You can scroll to the end of the article for all the sources used.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/apr/040428c.html

I'm sure there are more studies out there on both sides of this issue. Reading a study or two may not bring us to a proper understanding ultimately.

I trust the Bible and think homesexuality is harmful to humanity. But I recognize that we live in a world where not everyone trusts the Bible. I think that's why Jesus said to love everyone. I love and have loved people who practice homosexuality. They know where I stand and we still find that we can be friends. And I hope for better things for them.

I can also understand the fears of I am Christian. People have a way of arguing around moral absolutes. There are people in the world right now who think sex with consenting children is ok. It seems common sense to us that this is wrong, just like it seemed common sense only a few decades ago that abortion and homosexuality was wrong. Fine sounding arguments and swaying public opinion made it right. Some have argued that without a static moral foundation like the Bible to appeal to, anything goes.

I find it utterly disgusting that you are comparing gay people to pedophiles.

Where are these "studies" coming from? I've yet to see an official respected study that's been done by an objective source.

How are gay people 'harming' you?... Do you even know any gay people?

ABC, whats wrong with wanting to be accepted? If you were born homosexual (which is what happens, it has been proven over and over again) you would be fighting for your acceptance into the church. And equal rights? Everyone deserves that, they shouldn't be punished for the lifestyle they were born with. So THE LEAST we could do is accept them in the church. What's wrong with supporting them in their spiritual journey?

So many questions. Okay, it looks like people have ignored how homosexuals have hurt Christians here in Canada. I've also posted about the lady in the US, still people claim homosexuals don't hurt anyone. How do you like, if you're a Christian, to be told you can only be a Christian at home or at Church? Do we turn a switch off when we go to work or school? Do we just go rampant with sex and sin and then go to Church and act like a Christian? There is no right to be marriage, none, its a privilege. There is no right to marriage.

Someone claimed that homosexuality is something that is born and can be proven. Hmmm, last time I checked scientists were still trying to find that homosexual gene that is so often claimed.

Jesus did say to love everyone, he also said to go and sin no more, but I guess that is conveniently omitted by many here. Its not a freeforall folks. There are rules that we must follow in order to follow Christ. Jesus spoke about hell many times in the Gospels, does this mean he doesn't love us? Please.

Accepting someone's actions is another thing, I don't accept things that people do which are wrong. Homosexual acts for one, abortion for another. If judging these acts to be wrong isn't Christian according to many here, you've slipped further away from the Word of God. You support people in their spiritual journey, that is why Christians speak out against the promotion of homosexuality and abortion and so forth, to no do so is to not support them.

Then you get people questionning studies because its not from a source that they trust, although the sources they trust wouldn't investigate the commonality between homosexuals and pedophilia.

I'm the same. I know many gays who were abused sexually or physically.

Molested mainly.

In fact I am a sexual abuse survivor and had some tendencies with friends in my early teenaged years, until one friend straightened me out.

Gays try to push and promote their lifestylke choice on public schools. Just look at BC

One thing about it. They will "love" each other out of existance.

Love is truth and honesty, it isn't just gooey feelings

Here is the doctor who did a study on this:

http://www.drjudithreisman.com/

ABC, in response to your "last time I checked scientists were still trying to find that homosexual gene that is so often claimed" statement:

Homosexuality is not a "gene" to my knowledge. It is a chemical imbalance in the brain.

The majority of gays are not pedophiles, but the majority of pedophiles are gay

I'm quickly reading an article, the first few problems I have come across are these:

"Gay men view these boys as recreational toys to be used. I have heard many stories of HIV positive men having unprotected sex with boys. They don't think it matters. [4]

[4] The Advocate, March 1992, at 41. The following poem by a boy prostitute was reprinted in Gay and Lesbian Youth: "Watch for punkers, Learn the score, Money first, Then his pleasure. Make the punter, Want you more. Be the weakness for his strength. Be the child, He's yet to have. Be the strength for his weakness. Apologize, for saying "Dad"! Anonymous, Gilbert Herdt, Ed., in Gay and Lesbian Youth, Harrington Park Press, New York, 1989, at 132.

Dr. Reisman's study supports the conclusion that Alfred Kinsey's research was contrived, ideologically driven and misleading. Any judge, legislator or other public official who gives credence to that research is guilty of malpractice and dereliction of duty.
Charles E. Rice, Professor of Law, Notre Dame Law School, Indiana [6]

[6] Letter from Professor Rice in the author's archive, April 17, 2000.

The normalizing of bi/homosexuality seems to have so overtaken the media that the press totally ignored two1999, Annals of General Psychiatry studies correlating homosexuality with significantly higher levels of mental illness than among the population at large. [12]

[12] David Ferguson, John Horwood, Annette Beautrais, "Is Sexual Orientation Related to Mental Health Problems and Suicidality in Young People," 56, 10 ARCHIVES OF GENERAL PSYCHIATRY, 876 - 880 Oct. (1999); Richard Herrell, et al., "A Co-Twin Control Study in Adult Men." 10 ARCHIVES OF GENERAL PSYCHIATRY, 867 - 874 Oct. (1999).
"

A poem, a letter, and reports suggesting that gay teens are suicidal. Eureka! They kill themselves due to self-hate brought on by society, not because they are pre-disposed to suicide.

Sorry I can't look more, but I must leave work now. I'll be back tomorrow doing so more reading.

Cheers.

PS, I understand that this is only 3 resources out of a bunch, the rest could be perfectly reliable. I'm looking at it.

First of all, I'd like to point out that you are all using the term "Pedophile" when you should be using the term "Child Molester". I have met a few very good people who are Pedophiles, they have a tendancy to fall in love with children, but they never act on such impulses.
Further more it's been very hard for them because as soon as they've come to realize that they are pedophiles they all thought that they were 'doomed' to hurt children because ~that~ is what the media and society in general has taught them ~all~ pedophiles do.

Second, there has been studies (I'll try to find and post them) that suggest that it is something in brain that determines the sexuality of a person (Specifically something about scent) but I wouldn't say it's an imbalance which would suggest it was something that unnatural, uncommon, or simply not meant to be, which homosexuality is not.

I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU ARE COMPARING GAY PEOPLE TO PEDOPHILES.
Every gay person was not abused as a child. I know plenty of gay people who had wonderful, loving, regular childhoods. It's not a sin to be gay. I think we should all pray for YOU, iamchristian.

How did I miss this one?

I've ordered you (thread initiator) a one way ticket to "that hot place" but as I was feeling pretty good today I put you on Via One, so have a nice meal on me (if I were you, I'd have a salad, all the rest of your meals for eternity will be pretty hot).

This is a message for "medo"

You said it is not a sin to be a homosexuial. That is actuially completely wrong. Lets review the scripture:

Leviticus 18:22

"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable"(NIV)

Leviticus 20:13

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads"(NIV)

It also talks about this in Romans 1:26-28

Read up on it!

In Him
~DustiN~

It's too bad there is more than one topic that appeals to the "i hate gays" crowd. we have to say the same things over and over.

So leviticus, eh? I've said it before and I'll say it again. Go eat some Pork.

Also, that cotton-poly blend is feeling pretty comfortable, isn't it? Sinful. Abomination. Read leviticus.

And for those who say that the Levitican laws have been overturned by Jesus in the new testament, all you are really saying is that the bible is contradictory and can't possibly be the entire and unerring word of God. I agree with you there.

have a look at the "biblical literalism" topics...

There is a campaign in the U.S that I love - the "Comma" campaign. God is still speaking. the bible isn't the last word.

And apparantly, here in Wondercafe, she speaks with a quebecois accent. Right on.

I might be an immigrant...

For those who quote scripture book and verse about the "wrongness" or sinfulness of homosexuality - especially Leviticus, read the rest of it.

Done the proper blood sacrifices of unblemished goats for breaking any of the Ten Commandments lately? Lev. 4:28-31

Stone anyone lately for being a medium or a wizard? Lev. 20:27

Eaten pork lately? Shellfish? Better break out your turtledoves for burnt offering! Lev. 11:1-9

Is your wife menstruating? Given birth to a female child? She's unclean for two weeks! No going to church for her! Lev. 12: 1-6

Cherry picking? Yup. We do it every day. Even Orthodox Jews don't follow some of the laws. Society changes. Leviticus was written for a nomadic, tribal society where cleanliness and social conformity were vital for survival. Our society has changed.

Homosexuality is consensual sex among consenting adults.

Sexual abuse against children is non-consentual sex between a adult in a position of authority and a child who doesn't have the social or physical strength to refuse.

Beastiality is non-consentual sex between a human, who is conscious and thinking, and an animal which, despite possessing simple emotions and feelings, simply cannot give informed or conscious consent.

Very clear differences. If you can't see them, you're missing something pretty big.

indeed, most people who think they can throw the old 'pedophile=homosexual' arguement out there and having it taken seriously are missing quite a bit.

Gay people have hurt Christians?
Are you being facetious? I'm willing to bet that more sexual minority people have been harmed by the ''church'' and in a more direct way than the reverse.

Bilantre, oh now we hate homosexuals. Please reference where I have said such a thing?

Mike, can you dispute the cases I have presented? Can you say that they are false? Please.

sorry, what cases are you talking about?? could you list them for me again???

I've recopied my post where I identified some situations here below:

The person who said that homosexuals don't hurt people is clearly not in touch with reality, and I not saying this in regards to abuse, I am saying this as a general statement. Let's look at Chris Kempling, Scott Brockie, the Knights of Columbus in B.C. and so on. There are many examples of how they have hurt people in so many ways. We can look at the US too, most recently, Emily Brooker, who was told by her professor at Missouri State Un. that he wanted them to do a project on promiting homosexual foster homes and adoption. As well, he told them they have to write a letter to the Missouri Legislature in support of homosexual adoption, which she refused. As a Christian, she refused to do so and then was brought in front of an ethics committee for a level 3 grievance, the highest level at that university. She is currently conducting a lawsuit against the university.

so, what do you want me to do with that??

ABC said: "Mike, can you dispute the cases I have presented? Can you say that they are false? Please."

You've made a blanket statment that most homosexuals are also pedophiles, citing one source later - http://www.drjudithreisman.com/ .

Dr. Judith Reisman is a member of WorldNetDaily's speaker's bureau. WND is a known right-wing political interest group and powerful corporate publishing empire.

When you can come back with peer-reviewed studies in accepted scientific journals such as "Nature" or "Science" or "Journal of the American Medical Association" or "Lancet" stating that the majority of homosexuals are pedophiles, I will stand corrected.

You later cite a case that a professor in a university is suing her administration for blocking a study. Is that the same thing as saying that homosexuals are pedophiles? It's not the same topic - in this case you're talking about political correctness or research suppression.

It's hard to dispute your cases because you haven't really presented a coherent case.

from an earlier post by abc...
-Studies have shown that there is a disproportionite amount of pedophiles within the homosexual community. That alone should bring alarm bells.

i work as a foster parent myself, and we have lots of foster and adoptive same-sex parents. to suggest that we shouldn't even be considering them as foster and adoptive parents simply because of their sexual orientation?? what does that have to do with it?? they go through the screening process just like us hetero couples, and child molesters don't make the cut. all of our same-sex led familes are wonderful foster and adoptive parents.

the part of this that REALLY gets to me is that we are trying to find homes for all the children that the HETEROSEXUAL COMMUNITY has cast aside. right now, we have 900 children in care, and only 225 foster homes. right now, the heterosexual community isn't doing nearly enough to take care of these kids. and might i remind you that 'a disproportionite amount' of children in the foster care system come from heterosexual families.

earlier posted by ABC
-So no, homosexuals do hurt people in their activism and their demands that Christians accept them and their actions as right.

i dunno, same sex marriage has been legal in canada for over a year now, and i sure don't feel threatened as a married heterosexual. nor do i feel threatened as a christian.

how do you feel threatened?? is there some roving band of gays out there beating people up or something??

if you are so convinced that christians shouldn't be accepting gays, what are you doing posting on this board???

Judith Reisman is also not a medical doctor, or a scientist.
Her Ph.D. is in communications.

Noodles, you ask me to post it and then you tell me that what I want you to do with that? You're the one that asked for it, so obviously, you had a purpose as you wouldn't have asked. Very strange.

Christo, just because you don't like the source, doesn't mean the results are not correct. Its obvious that you have a closed mind. Why would you expect the APA, an agency which under political pressure, removed homosexuality from its list of illnesses?

I have presented this, and you have done nothing to prove otherwise. When the APA actually does a study on this, get back to me.

Noodles, you should know that a child needs the balance of a mother and a father. Your experimentations on children are based on a selfish ideal. You should be thinking of the children over the wants of 2 homosexuals. I would encourage any parents out there who give up their child up for adoption to ensure that they receive a mother and a father.

origionally posted by abc
Noodles, you ask me to post it and then you tell me that what I want you to do with that? You're the one that asked for it, so obviously, you had a purpose as you wouldn't have asked. Very strange.

first of all, my name is snootles. not noodles. its from a character in star wars.

second, i was wondering at first if i'd missed the examples you had talked about, because i wasn't sure what you meant. then, when you posted them, i didn't think that they really were going anywhere... they are a little 'out there'. so i asked for clarification as far as what you felt you were trying to prove with them.

thats all... sorry if i confused you!!!

Mike, what would a doctor or a scientist do on a survey of pedophiles and homosexuals?

---origionally posted by abc---
Noodles, you should know that a child needs the balance of a mother and a father. Your experimentations on children are based on a selfish ideal. You should be thinking of the children over the wants of 2 homosexuals. I would encourage any parents out there who give up their child up for adoption to ensure that they receive a mother and a father.

________________________________
well, actually i know quite a bit about this, and you are wrong. a child does NOT need 'the balance of a mother and a father', not at all. the fact that there are so many successful single parent families out there is a true testament to this.

what a child needs, abc, is someone who will respond to them when they are in trouble. that person needs to be an adult, not a brother or a sister. it is called 'attachment'... a child will attach right from birth to the person who responds to them when they cry out. as they grow, they attach to the person who they can go to who will comfort them whenever they are in a crisis. there are currently quite a number of studies that will bear this out, too... one of them is actually a doctor working right in montreal... would you like me to quote you a couple??

No. Children cannot provide informed consent.
I am sure you have considered that children have rights.
There are also overwhelming evidence that adults who
have sex with children do great damage to them. If
you believe you were born this way then you must live
with this burden as if it were an illness.

Isn't it strange that a past started on pedophilia has now turned to homophobia. I have and will always believe that those who "gay bash" are not comfortable wth their own sexuality. Honestly...... excuses are the worst.

Kudos Notorious!

What was the question? Of course the rights of pedophiles should be enforced! If I understand the original question - pedophiles, in my opinion come from the same stock as the rest of us - they are human beings and citizens of our country and have the same rights I do. The right to obey the law or be tried, convicted and sent to prison. Pedophilia is against the law - I'm just glad I don't have to act as the lawyer for the defense.

I'm confused.

How is it, exactly, that queers hurt heteros?

Tell you one thing ABC:

I'd sooner trust my children to a pack of gays I'd never met than to your hatemongering.

I personally know many people brought up from childhood in same-sex families: children adopted by a same-sex couples. They are not deformed or somehow maladjusted. Neither are they pedophiles (to try valiantly to bring this back to topic).

On the contrary, they are far more well-adjusted and have a much more balanced view of the world and of the church than you do. And, as it turns out, they are straight, so being brought up in a gay family doesn't make you gay either, in case you were planning to go there...

I can say without exception that every gay person I know (and I know dozens personally) are loving, caring people and I would trust each one of them with my life. That's way more than I can say for all of the hetrosexual people I know.

Bilandre, notice how I don't use insults and unkind words like you have? Yet, people point me out. That I cannot comprehend. If its hateful to use the Word of God, you obviously don't have anything in common with Him.

Raspberry, I'll answer your inquiry:

Scott Brockie: The ordeal began back in 1996, when a Ray Brillinger approached Mr. Brockie to do some printing for the Canadian Lesbian and Gay Archives. While he has done work for individual homosexuals, Mr. Brockie felt that this printing job would actually be promoting behaviour that he finds repugnant. He turned down Brillinger's request.

Mr. Brockie explains his decision: "I have a growing business and cannot afford days and days off for hearings. We do work for clients who are gay. We've had staff who said they were gay. I don't have a problem with people who are gay. I can't force them to change. However, I don't think I have to support that cause. If Mr. Brillinger had asked me to print personal business cards, I would have. We must promote the family, but we must not hate those who are gay."

"About two weeks later," Mr. Brockie recalls, "a letter arrived from the Ontario Human Rights Commission saying that Brillinger's rights had been violated, but that all would be forgiven for the price of $5,000 and an apology."

Chris Kempling: February 3, 2004 - The BC Supreme Court has ruled that the BC College of Teachers was within its rights to suspend high school teacher and student counsellor Chris Kempling for one month, without pay because of letters he wrote to the editor of his local newspaper which where critical of homosexuality.

In his Reasons for Judgment, The Honourable Mr. Justice Holmes writes, " [T]he appellant's publicly discriminatory writings undermine the ability of members of the targeted group, homosexuals, to attain individual self-fulfilment... Anything less restrictive than the sanction chosen by the BCCT (e.g. by issuing a reprimand only or no penalty at all) would not be an effective measure and might reasonably give rise to the perception that both the school system and the teaching profession condone the appellant's publicly discriminatory conduct, or think little of it."

Kempling himself explains, in a letter written to his supports, that Justice Holmes' decision "means that teachers who happen to be Christians or who belong to other religions proscribing homosexuality may not comment publicly on this issue. It means that disciplinary bodies do not need to provide any evidence of impairment or harm at a professional's workplace if they exercise their right to free speech in their off the job capacity. Inference of harm is sufficient to remove a teacher from his job. It is a serious blow to freedom of speech and freedom of religion."

Knights of Columbus: A B.C. lesbian couple, who accuse a Catholic men's group of discriminating against them by refusing to rent them a hall for their wedding reception, took their case to a human rights tribunal Monday.
The hearing is sure to further inflame passions over the issue, given that the Supreme Court of Canada ruled last month that religious officials opposed to same-sex marriages do not have to perform them.
Deborah Chymyshyn and Tracey Smith rented a Knights of Columbus hall in Port Coquitlam for their wedding reception back in 2003.
They allege the group cancelled the booking after finding out it was for a same-sex couple.
The women claim it's discriminatory to offer a facility to the public and then say a particular group can't use it.
The B.C. Human Rights Tribunal began hearing their case on Monday.

The couple's lawyer, Barbara Findlay, said they didn't realize a Catholic group operated the hall when they rented it.

Emily Brooker: Missouri State University student Emily Brooker is a Christian who stood up for her faith despite outrageous retaliation by her professor and other faculty at the university.

One of Brooker's MSU professors, Frank G. Kauffman, assigned to his students a project promoting homosexual foster homes and adoption. The project required the entire class to write and individually sign a letter to the Missouri Legislature in support of homosexual adoption, a letter Brooker refused to sign due to her religious objections.

Brooker faced an "ethics" committee after school officials informed her that she stood accused of a Level 3 grievance for violation of the School of Social Work's "Standards of Essential Functioning in Social Work Education." The Level 3 grievance is the highest level of grievance that an individual can bring against a student. University officials told Brooker she had violated three of the "Standards of Essential Functioning": Diversity, Interpersonal Skills, and Professional Behavior.

Bishop Fred Henry: Norm Greenfield, who launched a human rights complaint against Calgary Bishop Fred Henry, has admitted to the media that his actions were done in order to attract media attention. Greenfield launched his complaint after Bishop Henry released a pastoral letter explaining Catholic teaching on the subject of homosexuality. (See the letter here: http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jan/050113a.html )

At a conciliation session at the Alberta Human Rights Commission headquarters yesterday, in a session mediated by a human rights commission lawyer, Greenfield met with Bishop Henry and his legal counsel. During the meeting Greenfield agreed to drop the complaint. A second similar complaint against Bishop Henry is still pending.

Raspberry, I will end it here as I don't want to take up any more bandwidth. This should suffice in response.

ABC - In none of those situations were homosexuals harming heterosexuals.
Rather, rules were being enforced. In a relatively tolerant and accepting society, such as we have here in Canada, it is not okay to deny business to people based on their sexual orientation.

Let's reverse the situation. Let's say we lived in a society run predominantly by a group of people. Let's pretend that gays make up a religious group. And this religious group disagrees with Christians and feel that their behavior is repugnant. Should these gay religious people be allowed to discriminate against Christians? Should they be allowed to turn down their business and treat them like second class citizens just because they're Christians?
No... It's called tolerance... get used to it.

Also, I'd be willing to bet that the people who actually enforced the rules in those situations were heterosexual.