Genuinely asking is one thing. Someone who posts the same stuff over and over just to get their digs in, is not of interest to me. (So, I am ignoring the trolling)

Of course. people can be insane or merely seeking attention for doing and saying outrageous things.

Was Ennis a Baptist? The guilt could have overrided his true feelings.

There is an exception to every rule (or troll), but in this case, I am with SG, and can't be bothered

Ho Hum

I feel the question is valid and I will attempt an answer.

I looked up studies about SRS regret (SRS= sex reassignment surgery) and found that in the credible studies that the regret rate runs somewhere between 1% to 3%.  That means that at worst the SRS treatment is 97% effective.

Lets compare this with the reparative therapy technique (make you accept the plumbing you were born with)  that was lauded by the conservative religious community for decades.   The success rate of that method was about 0.2%.  99.8% ineffective.

Now lets look at the person and persons like Jae has mentioned.     Yes there are cases of regret.   The psychological screening process for SRS is very thorough and daunting.   Even so .... just like with any other issue there are the occasional misdiagnosis.  

Can a person go from being transgendered to not being so?   I would say no. 

Can a person be misdiagnosed .... yes indeed ... it happens occasionally.

Why are persons misdiagnosed?    Well for a lot of reasons.   I have noticed that quite a number of the regret cases involve persons that are quite influential and more affluent than average.    I suspect that they have the means to rush and influence the process.

Now what about those that are not so affluent that have regrets.   Just because a person has had "the operation" does not mean that the social transgender stigma is removed and utopia is reached.    Even with SRS it is still very hard in this society to live as a trans person.    This is what we are fighting so hard to change.

Now lets consider the spiritual pressures.    I wish I could find the study that reported that LGBT persons were twice as likely to be spiritually inclined compared to the general population.   Such spirituality is a very important core component of a person.   We look to our churches and we want to draw closer.   We are told aweful things and sometimes we are driven to the choice of denying ourselves to fit a particular church dogma.   Usually such choices don't last and we revert yet again.   This is why it is so vitally important to me that churches wake up and take the responsibility of looking into transgenderism openly, honestly, and completely.   Unfortunately for the most part they are unwilling to do so.   That I call willful ignorance.

I am confident that as society becomes more accepting and used to trans persons that the regret rate will fall even further.  Thankfully there are churches that are opening up to us and eventually we will be no different that the interracial marriage issue of the not so distant past.   By the way ... there are still a few churches holding out on that one .... a denomination comes to mind but there are several.

Anyways .... there it is .... and I hope this answer to the question is useful.

Sincerely

Rita

Even Pat Robertson is now saying that SRS is legitamate and that his viewers should not judge trans people and that there is no sin associated with SRS or being trans.

http://www.towleroad.com/2013/07/watch-pat-robertson-admits-being-trans-is-true-and-not-a-sin-video.html

I'm not familiar with Don Ennis.  How long has it been since he's had amnesia?

I had amnesia once, and at the time I panicked when I was made aware of some decisions I had made, because I was lacking all the information at the time the lead to those decisions.  Luckily for me, it lasted only a few hours.

It does sound like he has all his memories back, but if it's only been a few days, I wonder what his thoughts will be in a year.

hello chemgal ..... this amnesia thing is indeed interesting and has inspired a thought...

This is sort of in keeping with the theme of this thread.....

Hypothetical case.......

What if a person became a born again baptist but later woke up from the amnesia induced state and stated that they are back to whatever they were?

Now do keep in mind that baptists are of the "once saved, always saved" theology.

Can this person now be "not saved"?

Also consider the other side of the coin ..... could a baptist that then suffers from some sort of amnesia then be "not saved"?  ... or do they remain "saved"?

Quite the quandry.....

Regards

Rita

I appreciate your very thoughtful response, RitaTG. Dcn. Jae's question - combined with the news report, which I had seen - actually struck me as a good one, and I was sorry that it was so immediately dismissed.

The story could initiate genuine conversation. However, genuine conversation may requires more than some are willing to give.

If my wife is on my case, about say chores, her sending me info or asking questions about laziness or such is not IMO likely going to be "would you like to discuss a new story" or "what do you think". It would be especially true if she already stated clearly her thoughts, feelings and beliefs about me.

It would not - Again IMO- be dismissive of me to refuse to engage. There is always another day when one is not in a mood or picking a fight.

It would IMO be inviting escalation and could make me so polite I add to conflict and think relationship requires me to be without healthy boundaries.

The material is conversation worthy... That does not mean that I should engage in that conversatikn with just anyone. Example... a conversation abkjt race is not likely wise with someone known for rac ist views. Those involved... the
environment.... context... likely
outcome....relationship may not be.

When is it anothers esponsibility to enlighten you? At what cost? All equally valid conversation with those open to it and capable of it

This thread is IMO one of many similar ones aimed at LGBTQ folks started by jae within the past few days.

Jae is in troll mode. The best response is not to give him the outrage he's looking for. I thought the first few responses here were perfect, and showed that WC members were catching on about how to deal with a troll.

The reason that I posted a detailed reply to the original post was so that the issue itself was properly addressed.   I realize that Jae is unlikely to engage in a detailed exploration of the issue.  Basically I composed my response for others that may read this thread.

I would very much appreciate Jae responding to the two posts that I have put on this thread and discussing the points I have put forth.

We will see....

Regards

Rita

Hey, I think it's also great if you go right ahead and address Jae seriously and rebuke him. It's the outrage posts that play into his hand, and we've successfully managed to avoid them today, which is encouraging.

It's not like I'm even good at avoiding them.

Thank you Rev. Steven for your kind words here.

Thank you also to RitaTG for your thoughtful, educational, and well-written response.

Jae .... care to respond to the questions I posed in my 2nd post?

Regards

Rita

RitaTG,

I think that when we look at “identity”, all of us would acknowledge that our sense of self can and does change. We could each ask, how has our identity changed? Worker, retired, married, single, etc… Do we believe trans folks are somehow different and exempt?

When contemplating change, some leap quickly and some are slow. Some seek advice and others don’t. Some get good help and some get less than adequate help. One can think of divorce and see how people take different approaches about such a drastic change.

I would add that there are countless people who “believe” ___ and then change their mind. There are countless folks who have thought they were straight and then decided they were not. So, likely some who think they are gay may decide they are not.

If they share, that they might be gay or trans, they may encounter friends, family, church leadership, even counsellors who try to steer them one way or another.   

The Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender Nonconforming People is such that surgeries are later in the process. It allows for change of heart… for deciding that you can live in a noncomforming way without surgery…for weighing options and deciding on them… for those who are struggling with homosexuality and confuse it with gender identity….etc.

There are those who tell the truth no matter how hard and those who make up stories when the truth is too hard.
There are those who speak the truth and those who choose not to. There are those who stand up and out and those who cannot stand up and out and need to conform.
There are those who do so no matter the cost and those who decide the cost is too high.
There are also those who do not want attention and those who crave attention.
There are those who do and those who do not have a mental illness.

 So, yes, I would say it can happen. Anything can happen….

If amnesia means I may not know who others are, perhaps I would not know who I am either…..I have not heard from Ennis’ doctors.Has anyone heard from experts in amnesia?

Perhaps I will give it a shot sometime in the future. I don't have time right now.

Typical .......

Yet you want us to have time to respond to your threads? 

Somehow that doesn't seem like fair dialogue...

Is that what Jesus would do????

Curious here.....

Rita

If you'd like to finish off the major paper I have due tomorrow, then read the five books (Holt, Foster, Mulholland Jr., Renovare, and Bonhoeffer) I have to read to prepare for a spiritual retreat that I'm going on starting this Monday and fill me in on what they say, maybe I would have time to answer your points. What do you say? As for me I'm off to the library to continue my paper.

off you go Jae ,..... off you go....

I do wonder why you post here.....

Regards

Rita

LMAO

Jae - I was once told that we are called to be human beings, not human doings.  Beware of losing contact with your sacred centre by filling every moment with activity.

Thank you for the tip kay. The next little while will be busy for me though. I have many assignments due. The Spiritual Formation retreat should help though.

I can come here and post if I want to. Leave me alone.

Isn't this about the point, after you go on a trolling spree and post a bunch of mindless or hateful drivel, where you change your username? Think Aaron will do that for you again?

Aaron changed my username at my request after I became a Deacon. Leave me alone.

Jae, I'd like to suggest that if you're too busy to respond to posts, you should be too busy to create topics. It would certainly get people off your back.

Am I the only one that suspects that people who are uncertain about their own gender identity or orientation tend to over-focus on the topic?

BetteTheRed

and i do hope that anyone who is like this will be willing and courageous to open up to those of us here who have experience in this area of life

Some people are the same online as off. Some are not the same. Some feel anonymity is a free pass to not be as nice, polite, and respectful as they might be offline.

Some folks vent online. Some folks seek community online. Some do not. Some seek a place with common interest. Some folks frequent places to object. Some show up simply because they it know will create conflict and drama.

We each have different reasons for being here. I think some folks share the same motivation, whetehr they are friends or not.

However, what is found in online communities that is similar to offline ones. is that people are people. What ruins or damages or strains relationships offline will online. What helps to build to build and nurture relationships offline also does online….

If you critique people too much, criticize them… well they won’t want to be around you.

If you struggle to accept them as equals or just as human beings with feelings… they will likely struggle with a relationship with you.

So on and so forth….

If I said to my wife, “What do you think about A?” and A was a pivotal issue in our personal relationship and when she started to talk I dismissed it and when she said, “hey, talk to me” and I said “not right now, I am busy” she would wonder why I started the conversation in the first place.

I may genuinely be busy, but I also likely knew that I would be before I said, “let’s talk”. She also likely knows that.

If she feels dismissed, that I never wanted conversation, or gets mad at me… I can say “that’s her problem” or "I will say what I want"....but if I want to be in relationship with her or have conversations with her in the future, I might have more to learn from it.

What is this "Leave me alone" business.

Well, crazyheart, if my wife or someone kept saying it to me any time I spoke to them, I would think they were childish but I would probably hear them crystal clear. I might also worry they were up to something. You know, like accusing me of harrassment or stalking or something like seeking a protective/restraining order...

A message for the clique: I'm tired of being your punching-bag. Really, I've been attacked, ridiculed, maligned, and mocked since the day I first came on this site. All for being a conservative evangelical. It's sad really. Quite sad. And I'm sick of it.

ty for expressing that

it takes a real mensch to show vulnerability like that

How the hell am I part of a WC/UCCan "clique"?

Jae, you're becoming a petulant little shit again. I understand you don't have the best social skills, and I empathize, because neither do I. But at least I work at it. You keep falling in the same anti-social behaviour traps of criticizing picnics and train rides and sexualities and religious practices in the most annoying or easily-debunked ways possible, and people are predictably calling you on your posts. You give at least as much as you take, and then you have the gall to play the victim card. Nobody buys it. You're just being a troll. You've been blatantly trying to elicit angry responses, and now you want sympathy.

Well fuck that. Stop being a dickhead and people will stop treating you like one.

I still wanna know what the clique, who's in it already and how can I join??? I've never been a part of the "in crowd" before. If it's a United Church clique, do they get served the best slices of strawberry short cake?

There is a saying, "don't let your mouth pick a fight your a$$ can't handle". As far as being a punching bag, quit picking fights and you might not have people swinging back. 

 SG !

"....the a$$ you kick today, might be the one you kiss next week."

Thanks for the vid IW I enjoy Vice docs.
Also check this out:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran

Not something one would expect in a strict, religious theocracy.

Dcn Jae ...... you have run from every discussion that threatens your viewpoint.

You continually bring up sex, sexual orientation, and gender identity issues either directly or indirectly.

If you have issues you are sensitive about and would like to discuss privately I extend an invitation to you and I promise to keep it very confidentitial.

If you are nor comfortable with that then I would sincerely suggest that you contact a well qualified therapist.    You will be glad you did ..... I know from personal experience.

Sincerely and Gently....

Rita

Yuppers; i remember posting a vid aboot that to WC a while back...