Intent is all.  If the intent is to deceive it is a lie.

If I write a story and claim it is fictional it may still contain a truth.  If I write a story and claim it to be fact, knowing it to be false, it is a lie.

If someone tells me a fact is truth or a lie.  I have a choice, blindly accept another's statement or search for the answer myself.  What I find will become my truth but not another's.

There are stories in our world that are not black and white, neither truth nor falsehood.  Things that will never be answered with concrete evidence or facts.  For those tales all one is left with is the choice, to believe or not.  That choice is paramount.  It should be granted and respected.

****************************

Warning:  long fictional quote ahead....

I can believe things that are true and things that aren't true and I can believe things where nobody knows if they're true or not.

I can believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and the Beatles and Marilyn Monroe and Elvis and Mister Ed. Listen - I believe that people are perfectable, that knowledge is infinite, that the world is run by secret banking cartels and is visited by aliens on a regular basis, nice ones that look like wrinkled lemurs and bad ones who mutilate cattle and want our water and our women.

I believe that the future sucks and I believe that the future rocks and I believe that one day White Buffalo Woman is going to come back and kick everyone's ass. I believe that all men are just overgrown boys with deep problems communicating and that the decline in good sex in America is coincident with the decline in drive-in movie theaters from state to state.

I believe that all politicians are unprincipled crooks and I still believe that they are better than the alternative. I believe that California is going to sink into the sea when the big one comes, while Florida is going to dissolve into madness and alligators and toxic waste.

I believe that antibacterial soap is destroying our resistance to dirt and disease so that one day we'll all be wiped out by the common cold like martians in War of the Worlds.

I believe that the greatest poets of the last century were Edith Sitwell and Don Marquis, that jade is dried dragon sperm, and that thousands of years ago in a former life I was a one-armed Siberian shaman.

I believe that mankind's destiny lies in the stars. I believe that candy really did taste better when I was a kid, that it's aerodynamically impossible for a bumble bee to fly, that light is a wave and a particle, that there's a cat in a box somewhere who's alive and dead at the same time (although if they don't ever open the box to feed it it'll eventually just be two different kinds of dead), and that there are stars in the universe billions of years older than the universe itself.

I believe in a personal god who cares about me and worries and oversees everything I do. I believe in an impersonal god who set the universe in motion and went off to hang with her girlfriends and doesn't even know that I'm alive. I believe in an empty and godless universe of causal chaos, background noise, and sheer blind luck.

I believe that anyone who says sex is overrated just hasn't done it properly. I believe that anyone who claims to know what's going on will lie about the little things too.

I believe in absolute honesty and sensible social lies. I believe in a woman's right to choose, a baby's right to live, that while all human life is sacred there's nothing wrong with the death penalty if you can trust the legal system implicitly, and that no one but a moron would ever trust the legal system.

I believe that life is a game, that life is a cruel joke, and that life is what happens when you're alive and that you might as well lie back and enjoy it.

        Neil Gaiman, American Gods

*****************

Ain't that the truth.
 

Everything we see, hear, read, experience, becomes a part of us.  Wee absorb thoughts, ideas, facts, accepting some, rejecting others - and some time later we may not even remember where these thoughts came from.   So, when I state that I read somewhere that such-and-such happened, or so-and-so said something, but I cannot identify my source, and somebody else does not believe it, does that make me a liar?    Not by the above definition.   You may question whether it did happen, or that so-and-so said that, but I don't think you can question my memory of reading it somewhere.  

If I say that I believe something, and I have no factual proof, am I a liar?   If my experience has shown me that something is true (not factual, but true) am I lying to myself?   Am I a liar if I share this belief with someone else?    I see them free to believe it or not.  I don't see how they can say I am lying.  

Even if I say that I believe a certain thing, and a bit later I also say that I believe in something that seems quite the opposite, is one or the other a lie?   The above post seems to imply that a person can believe some rather contradictory things at the same time.  

This brings to mind my older sister contradicting things that I personally remembered from our childhood while growing up together. She would refer to my memories as "selective memories" and she would correct me on how I remembered something. It took me a while, but I eventually realized that we just interpreted our experiences differently. Neither one was "lying" but each of us was relating  to our own truths.

Like LB, I think the intent piece is important here. If you are relating something with the intention of conveying a truth and your words are spoken in the belief that they are true, it is not a lie. It may not be factual truth (e.g. saying God healed you of your illness when you sincerely believe it to be true, even though factually it was the meds, is not a lie) and may even be a harmful belief (e.g. expressing a racist viewpoint), but that doesn't make it a lie. If, however, you present it as factual truth knowing that it is not, then you're into a lie (e.g. if we stick with racism, much of the Holocaust denial movement is predicated on lies, though ignorance can also come into play so not all Holocaust deniers are necessarily liars).

Mendalla

Waterfall - I think you have nailed it in your post.  What is one person's truth is not necessarily another person's truth.   I too have sisters.  We get together for a few days every year or so and usually have at least one afternoon or evening of 'remember when'.   It is surprising how different our memories and our perceptions are of what life was like in our home when we were kids.  One sister remembers our mother as close-minded and prejudiced - I remember her as very open minded and ahead of her time.  Our younger sister hardly remembers her at all.  They both have at least some positive memories of our father - I have to try hard to find much good to say.  My older sister remembers being burdened with work - I thought we all shared the chores and duties, except for the youngest who was 'babied'.   Not only are our memories different, but our actual experiences were different.  Things happened in one sister's life before the other was even born.  I was the only one at home when our house caught fire.  My older sister and brother were stranded on the school bus one night when it couldn't get through the snow drifts - I was too young to go to the regional school.  

Perceptions are different.  It seems that we all write our life stories.  Two men grow up in the same small isolated village.  Their father's work on the same crew, earn the same money.  Their homes are very similar.   Both are intelligent, hard working visionaries.  Both get out of that village and 'make something of themselves'.    Years later the successful politician tells people that he is one of them, and talks about his roots in the working class in the towns and villages that make this province great.   The other, now a successful business man paints a different image of himself.  He never mentions his hometown but claims to be from 'just outside (town) where he went to highschool'.   He gives the impression that he was born to success and leadership - a cut above the ordinary person.   Who is right?  Who is lying about his past?  

A woman I know tells us that she is from 'ordinary people who never had much money' and when questioned says that her father was 'chief of police in a small town'.   Well, a small Ontario town is a far cry from a small town or village in this province.  And to be 'chief of police' seems to be a pretty good position, with job security, annual salary, benefits, pension plan - not like the seasonal employment that the 'ordinary people' I grew up with experienced.    Was she exggerating somehow to make herself fit in, or perhaps to show that she was alone responsible for her success?   Was she lying?   Or was that her reality? her point of view?

Hi seeler,

It would be a lie if the story told purported to be factual.  For example if James Frey had never claimed that his book "A Million Little Pieces" was autobiographical it would have been  accepted as a work of fiction.  That it was sold initially as non-fiction indicates lying of some kind was connected to it.

Fairytales, as the name suggests, are not non-fictional accounts.

Fantasy, also suggests that truth is not being shared factually if it arrives at all.

If they do not believe those deeply held beliefs to be truthful then yes.  If they do believe those deeply held truths to be true then no.  It is possible to share a belief honestly and still be wrong factually.

The person is not lying.  The person may still be irresponsible and wrong.

Empirical validation may or may not prove something to be a lie or not a lie.  Empirical validation is not absolute in that regard.  What is the empirical formula for beauty?

Intent is the foundation of the lie.  If the intent is to deceive (which is the definition of lying) then any and all intent to deceive rightly wears the label of lie.  Within the bouds of the deception is the motive for beginning the lie.  White lies are understood as deceptions undertaken to prevent harm from happening to another.  Answering deceptively the question, "Does this dress make me look fat" is justified by not wanting to hurt the wearer of said dress which may be a noble motive.  I suspect that more often than not the decpetion is employed to prevent one from becoming the vehicle by which harm comes to the wearer of said dress.  Bear in mind the question is not "am I lying?" but whether or not a "white lie" can ever be considered a "good" thing.

Grace and  peace to you.

John

This may be a digression but I have thought about these "white lies".  Personally I do not think they are necessary.

One can respond to the "does this make me look fat" question in a number of ways; honestly - yes, hurtfully - Oh yes! or

"I don't think that colour/style is flattering on you, why don't you wear that lovely neon green outfit with the puffy sleeves" - which could be a hurtful lie or a truth.

Sometimes we lie because the truth takes a little more effort and sometimes we tell the truth because our intent is malicious.

The truth is rarely pure and never simple.

     Oscar Wilde

I'm trying to think about the question:  Does this dress make me look fat?

Certainly if I take my daughter or sister or friend shopping with me, relying on them to help me pick out a dress for a special occasion, I will want their honest opinion.  'Does it make me look fat?'   'Yes, it does seem to pull a bit here.  Maybe we should try the next bigger size."  or "I really like that style on a tall, slim figure but I'm not sure it suits you.  Let's try something not quite so fitted."    I certainly don't want the person I'm relying on to lie just because I like the dress.  

At home, I'm getting dressed to go out to a dinner with my husband.  I have several choices of what to wear.   I get out something I haven't worn for while, try it on, and ask my husband.   Again I'm looking for an honest opinion.   If it makes me look fat (I know I'm a bit overweight) I'll choose something else.

But let's say I'm out at a gathering, or on a trip with a limited wardrobe.  I don't have the option of wearing something else.  I can't imagine asking a friend or relative that question, but I might, say in the washroom looking a a full length mirror, make a remark:   "I really think this dress makes me look fat.  What do you think?"    Then a little white lie, or changing the subject, might be more appropriate than saying:  "Yes, I can see every bulge."