"[There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.  So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

--I Corinthians 15:41-44

"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."

--Luke 20:35-36

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

--Revelation 21:4

Do these help?

Personally I believe there will be a great reunion in Heaven.

^^  Is it a reunion if nobody retains their personalities?

I have to admit I don't really know for certain. I like to think that when people die they meet up with people who have gone before and they have a wonderful reunion.

Since we have no evidence to the contrary, I'd say death cuts any relationships and leaves only memories.  We rot and that's it - no 'knowledge' from any 'other side', no 'heaven', no 'hell', no 'reunioun' and nothing else.

The relationship is over. I lost my mom in 2008 and my dad in 2009. I miss them terribly every day. It gets easier not to live in the past. The pain lessens with time as ur life gets busier to fill the gaping hole cut in your heart.

I do not believe in God. I believed in God before my parents died. If God was here he would not have abandoned me in my deepest hour of grief. And that is exactly what he did

Respectfully, Serena, did God abandoned you or did you abandon God?

hi Bernie - gosh, so many questions, so much longing in your words.  I feel for you, in missing your Dad.  I don't know any firm answers to what you ask. 

For me, in my own case,  I do still feel a connection to my mom who died 11 years ago.  Sometimes I wonder what she might think of things going on in my life now;  sometimes I wish I could ask her some questions that occur to me now, but did not when she was still living.   So sometimes I just put those questions out there ... and if I pay attention, there are signs I get back. 

I think the story about your Dad's colleague showing up is so cool - I love coincidences like that - are they coincidences or not?  Who knows?  Is it important to determine, or just to enjoy the confluence of events?  Personally, I prefer the enjoying and marvelling. 

seems wrong that our relationships don't survive death, and yet I often wonder about happily married spouses who remarry on the death of a spouse...how is that handled?  Azdgari posted a LUKE passage , and that seems to acknowledge that relationships don't survive death - and yet I hope a connection of some sort remains.   I think it does, I think it does as I felt my dad close.   Maybe its just my mind playing tricks, but what a lonely sad thing to think. 

I don't think I believe in coincidences. 

God abandoned me. I prayed. God ignored me. I reached out to people in the church and was ignored as well

Bernie - I guess it might have to with how one defines "relationship" - if it's an emotional connection, then yes, I think it's possible to contine having that emotional connection even when one person has died - there are memories, shared history & connectivity.  If one's definition requires a physical presence to have that sense of 'relationship' - then I guess after death there might be none.   I see lots of signs of connectedness to my mom in my present day life, and they always make me smile. 

(P.S. Bernie - I absolutely LOVE your present avatar - that's a beautiful pic!  Is there a story associated with it? ) Not wanting to derail, just curious!

Again, Serena, you send mixed messages.

If you believe that your god abandoned you, then you are not an atheist as you earlier claimed, for to an atheist there would be no god to do any abandonment.

I still miss my dad and like to think that he is watching over me from afar.

I think it is very comforting to think of a loved one watching over us, or waiting for us somewhere.  It's just that, in the complete absence of any reason to believe that, and with the obvious reason to make such a "campaign promise" to win support and adherents, it's impossible for me to believe it.  It is, quite obviously, the selling of false hope.  I find that distasteful.

Rather than take this as an opportunity to put down believers, I'm curious why you didn't promote atheism to show us all how you are compassionate during someone's grief and questioning?

Life is about making stories. Every person that comes into our lives becomes part of our story.

In that sense, we don't know the person as they are in their entirety - we only know them as how our story sees them.

That's my explanation for why two people see the same person in different ways. (eg. to one pupil a teacher can be wonderful - to another pupil "the worst teacher in the world".)

Thus, when someone dies they continue to live whilst the other(s) still live. The other(s) carry the story as long as either they live or succumb to dementia etc.

Bernie, you ask why is it that happily married widow/widower's remarry?

From my  widow's perspective, I can say that the love engendered by the relationship doesn't die with the death of the person.

One is left needing a focus for that love. Some folks choose a "new" partner - whilst others sublimate that love in other areas of their lives.

I'm sorry if I wasn't compassionate enough for you.  I'll try to do better.

If the question is, "What happens to our relationships when we part through death?", then my answer is the same as it has been before - we pass along a little bit of ourselves to everyone we know, loved, and spent time with.

I know I share some of my grandfather's mannerisms, his sense of humour, and most of his nose.  I can't tell you what percetage of it is genetic, but certainly not all of it.  This is how a little bit of those who pass before us lives on.  I knew my grandfather so well, I can imagine what his reaction would have been to the birth of our kids.  I know how much he would have loved to have seen them, only missing our first by a few months.

So yes, when someone tells me he's in "a better place", I may be inclined to invite them to sodomize themselves with a broken axe handle, but only because I won't be consoled with what amounts to lies at worst, or vague notions at best.  That's not compassion.

Actually chansen, the whole 'he's in a better place' concept is a different discussion I think.   I too find it an offensive statement in many cases, as do many folks here, as per other discussions.   

I do like (and agree with) your statement about passing on bits of ourselves to everyone we knew.

Hey Serena,

You prayed and didn't receive the answer you wished for.  That doesn't mean your prayers were not heard.

It is sad that when you reached out to the church you didnt' get help.  Perhaps that was because you needed to find a better church to have.

And Serena, when you reached out here, there was a real outpouring of love and support for your tough times.  The illnesses, the family strife, your pain and confusion and anger over the deaths of your parents.

We were all there for you, still are and I have to believe that there is a hand of God in that relationship.  You found this site.  You have changed, your life has had massive turmoil and now you are in a new phase.  But I don't for one minute believe that God abandoned you.  God put you in touch with us, when God knew taht your former church were going to let you down.  You are better off without them.

Hi chansen,

I agree with you.

That particular fabrication is not something which the biblical text supports.  Unless one wants to argue for literalism.

I suspect that the genesis of this lie is Hebrews 12:  1 which reads:

If we simply allow the passage to be interpreted in the contemporary English then it would appear that the author of Hebrews is suggesting that we are on the stage and the great cloud is spectating.

This understanding would naturally allow us to conclude that our loved ones (provided they made it to heaven) are watching us in comfort and cheering us on.

The use of the word "martyr" in the Greek suggests another image that is, I believe, more accurate.  Think stampede.

We are but one surrounded by a great herd of others and all of us are running together along the course laid before us.  

This provides comfort similar to but not precisely the same as the fabrication.  It is similar in that it places me within a context, or a tradition and I am not alone in that.  It is different in that it doesn't mean those who have gone before me have nothing better to do than see if I can keep up.

Chansen and I would disagree about the reality of heaven, and that is okay.

I think that heaven will be to fabulously engaging for me to be wandering over to some window pining for those who are coming along behind of me.

None of that answers the original question though does it?

My answer.  I don't know.

I don't know and not knowing doesn't particularly concern me.  I'm self aware enough to know I don't know everything now and the world gets along fine with my personal ignorance about stuff.  So long as somebody else knows there isn't a complete knowledge gap.

So, I don't know.

I believe that God does and I will be content with the answer that God gives when God is pleased to give it.

Until then there is a race to be run and a herd to run it with.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I think the question of the afterlife has been dealt with here in various degrees and I won't weigh in on that with more than an 'I don't know'. I will say, speaking to the original question, that I don't consider death to terminate relationships. My husband and I have both in our lifetime lost beloved grandparents, and I am facing losing another in the not too distant future (although I've been saying that for five years now, so who's to say?); and I suppose in that sense, much like someone pointed out upthread, their actual presence in my life has been/will have been replaced by memories. I guess that's a difference of understanding though as I consider those memories to be a very sacred way of continuing that relationship. My nanny taught me to play cards, to knit (sort of), to bake; my grandfather taught me how to use almost every electronic device I know how to use, how to make an omelette, and has given me a treasure trove of knowledge about subjects from World War II to diabetes to plants and animals. Just because their bodies have ceased/will soon cease to function, does not mean their souls will not continue to commune with mine through common interests, memories etc.

@ Chansen.......   Is that a baby stig as your avatar?   VERY cool.

Hello Pilgrims Progress, respectfully you misunderstood me.  I know why happily married deceased would remarry of course we want to unite in love.  No what I was pondering was if our relationshps survived beyond death, how would it work out if you were married to 2 people both of whome you loved.  Would you have to pick?  But that doesn't seem what you'd expect of heaven.  I guess I'm hoping that we will be reunited with our relationships intact.

I heard a saying from somewhere in Europe I think, that a person's name is immortal until the last person who knew him dies.  

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@ Carolla.......sorry for delay (years!) its just a pic I happened on.  love the colours and love the mountains and vista.  It gives me a feeling of peace, thank you so much for your kind reesponses on this question opened up a can of worms but good to hear the thoughts.

I very definitely don't know what happens after death and for a long time that's bothered me a great deal.  I won't go so far as to say that there is no evidence of anything after death, but I will say that the evidence is pretty flimsy, in my opinion.  Accounts of people who have died and come back and who have seen things could be explained in many different ways, and the lack of explanation in other cases is not necessarily proof of Heaven or Hell or anything else happening after death. 

People have claimed to see ghosts and angels before, too, but nothing has ever been verified in any scientific way, and similarly there are several possible explanations for these things that don't involve ghosts or angels being real.  (I saw a "ghost" in my bedroom a couple of years ago...he was a homeless man standing by my bed and he was kind of bluish and translucent.  Was he real?  My eyes say he was, but the fact that I had just stumbled out of bed in the dark room while half asleep to go to the bathroom and the fact that he bore a strong resemblance to a man I used to work with make me very skeptical.)

So, lack of proof of an afterlife isn't proof that there isn't one, and likewise lack of proof that there isn't an afterlife isn't proof that there is.  Likely swayed by the comforting idea of seeing those who have passed on again, I vote for maybe...but I don't know.

I believe in nothing after death.  I don't really believe in our energy being absorbed into the psyche of creation in anyway other than radioactivity might. 

It doesn't mean that we don't create energy while living and that the spin off of our nature is to communicate on every level possible.  while living. 

Death is release.  The end of breath.  the end of the heart.  It is cruel and hurtful, such as living in a state of crime or alienation or perhaps it is enlightenment or release from a miserable relationship.  Death happens to us.  It is the only fate we have, the only decision we can not make, other than being born.  It is our absolute and our nature.  It is sad, horrible, sometimes great sometimes a relief and sometimes a treasure and sometimes just so sad

But whatever the emotion surrounding death, the fact that it bears a stain on the lilving is sad; part of what makes us interesting, doomed and creative.

Bernie - I'm curious. Why would you pick up a thread from two years ago and continue the discussion as though there had never been a break?

jlin wrote:

".......... Death happens to us.  It is the only fate we have, the only decision we can not make, other than being born.  It is our absolute and our nature.  It is sad, horrible, sometimes great sometimes a relief and sometimes a treasure and sometimes just so sad

But whatever the emotion surrounding death, the fact that it bears a stain on the lilving is sad; part of what makes us interesting, doomed and creative."

Beautifully, poignantly, said.

simply,I hadn't visited wondercafe for a long time... there were posts I hadn't read. and the topic still compels me.

Hey, welcome back.

And yes, that is the Baby Stig.  As I recall, Three Wise Men visited him, bringing gold, hotel shampoo, and an electronic toy.  Turns out, frankincense and myrrh are kind of a bitch to source these days.

I Believe in God and I put Full Trust that He exists...we cannot blame God for people who die, they are not dead , they are with the Lord..this is a world where we learn to build ourselves, we must work with righteousness, before we can become that way..we must work inside for peace, to be peace..these are attributes we must learn..to grow our souls...

Do you think God would give us Eternal Life and then not deliver...yes there is a heaven, many heavens, demensions, realms, comes in a lot of names...the bible says The Earth is only a Shadow of Heaven..Imagine How Beautiful it must be..

bygraceiam, it is so good to see you posting. It has been a long time. Welcome back.

Then tell your Lord to stop being so effing greedy and give my kids their grandparents back.

What is this restriction on blaming God?  If you can credit God with the good, but you can't blame him for the bad, then what the hell is the point?  Are we to just walk around, mindlessly and subserviently thanking God for everything?  What a pathetic existence.

You're scaring me.

23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”

29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[b]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.
(Matthew 22:23-33)


seems like much to explore.