Chemgal;  There is nothing wrong with waiting.  And you should wait until you meet the right guy that would be my advice although I have not had lots of guys to compare and I am happy about that though who knows maybe I will in a few years.  That is not my plan though.  I think that there would be nothing worse to have sex for the first time with a creep.  Or to find out the guy is a creep during the moment or after.  The first time is the most memorable so my advice to anyone would be to take time and pick the first one with a great deal of care.

Decisions are always in flux.  Your decision today may not be the same decision a year from now and that is okay too.

You are still young.  Time is on your side.

If you decide to wait that's great, so long as you're not imposing that on other people.

In the thread in question we had a young man who was casting judgement on a young lady for not being a virgin. We also had fundies casting judgement on others for being "sinful" based on a moral premise that's not even in their Bible.

Your decision and your right, and I celebrate your choice.

However, the moment you set yourself up as judge, as those people I mentioned have done, you open yourself up to justifiable criticism for your prejudice and bigotry.

 In a year from now I'll be married 

She can impose that decision on her boyfriend though that is the ONE person she can impose it on.

Congratulations!!!

perhaps, to an extent, but he still has the choice whether to leave or stay, so her choice isn't really imposing on him.

Plus taking control of what happens to you and your body is every person's right. Taking that right for yourself seldom, if ever, translates into imposing on another.

What I was referring to was when  a person attempts to impose their concept of morality on another throuygh legislation, humiliation, judgementalism, or like vehicles.

Thanks Witch.  I realize that based on the discussion that taking some posts out of the discussion context can lead to misinterpretation, but I have met people in real life who really do feel that waiting is completely wrong.  I don't understand why they would feel that way, or why they would even care if a couple does decide to wait.

 Thanks Serena!

All sorts of people believe all sorts of things. You can't pay mind to all of them, especially if what they believe is also none of their damn business.

I think that there are some good arguments for waiting, if not until marriage, at least until one is mature enough to make good decisions. I speak from a certain degree of experience.  When I was in my early 20's I more-or-less lost my mind and slept with a couple of good friends and for that matter a few guys I hardly knew.  End reult: several perfectly good friendships were totally wrecked, I ended up as the 'second woman' in the middle of one fellows disintergrating relationship, I let myself be used for comfort sex by one guy who recently broke up with his GF, and the one guy I though was my BF had sex with me and dumped me the next night.  When I met the man I've now been with for nearly 10 years I was such a mess it took him the better part of 6 months to convince me to go out for coffee and the first time he tried to kiss me I avoided him for 2 months thereafter.

If waiting works for you Chemgal, more power to you.

Hey, that's great, congratulations! I hope that time of expectation and planning goes well for you.

Hi chemgal,

I don't wonder.  It is works righteousness and it is being forced upon others.

I don't have a problem with your decision.  In fact, now that you have made it and now that you have informed us that you have made it, that is your standard and the best service I could offer to you would be to help you live with integrity according to this decision.

You have clearly said that this is what you have decided.  Discussion is closed until you feel the need to revisit the discussion.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I also noted the "it's not like anyone is a virgin on their wedding day anymore" in the other thread. Please, whoever made that statement or whoever makes other statements like it - how, exactly, do you know what everyone else is doing?

That of course is the type of ridiculous statement that can be used in any argument and that hardly anyone has the guts to challenge, because as soon as someone says "everyone's doing it" then if you're not "doing it," you become an isolated outsider - something's obviously wrong with you if you're not doing what everyone's doing. You're not "cool." It's like "everyone's doing drugs so you should too." That type of statement is really a polite-sounding attack against those who would dare to disagree.

chemgal, I have no doubt that many people wait for their wedding day, and I have no hesitation in saying that my wife and I both did and have never regretted it. At the same time, I make no judgments against those who don't wait. It's a personal choice. Congratulations on your upcoming wedding!

If that's what you want to do, hey, your body, your choice.  Doesn't affect me in the least.

Personally, I think sex before marriage is a great thing.  One of the best ever.  Among other reasons, you get to practice.  You get better at it.  Almost nobody tells you how good sex was the first time, and I'd hate to think of my first time happening on my wedding night.  Not with the call to 911 and the 15 firefighters who responded.

It's my opinion that anyone who wants their partner to be "pure" prior to marriage is a collector, not a spouse.  They want that toy, but they want the one in the unopened box, because it's worth more.  They should get over themselves.  Sex before marriage, to your eventual spouse or otherwise, is such a non-issue. 

I agree with you, chansen. The issue should not be what you want your partner to be; the issue should be what you want for yourself, and your own sense of what's right for you.

As for the 15 firefighters on your wedding night? No - I won't ask!

Sorry to sidetrack, but this came up on a masturbation thread a little while ago too...  It made me uncomfortable both times.

Congratulations on your upcoming wedding, chemgal, and your decision to be true to your beliefs and your body in the way that's right for you.

Well stated witch - I fully agree.  

Happiness to you chemgirl as it seems you've found your life partner!   Be true to yourself & do what's right for you - that's most important.

Congrats to chemgal!

As for the topic, I didn't wait for marriage but, interestingly, I actually did marry the first person I slept with (and am still married to her after almost 17 years). I don't regret the former. We had a very passionate physical relationship in the years before "making it official" that still has a lot of fond memories. As for the latter (marrying my first lover), it was the right call because she was the right person, not because I think that is how it must happen.

You, however, are not me and must make your own decision based on your values and life situation. Kudos for making the decision you have because in this day and age, it does seem to be the "against the grain" one.

Mendalla

Personally, I waited. Until I was 44 years old. Primarily because I had long been taught that premarital sex is sinful. I guess that's one reason why I want it to be sinful, so that I feel justified in that. Cuz if it isn't, when I think back on my past, think about all those chances, all those lost opportunities...

However, I'm glad that I waited. I think it's great that my first partner was my life partner, my Yobo, my sweeting. I wouldn't change that for anything.

Ahhh, sweet post Jae. 

Can I ask a question.  Is Yobo an acronym for something or a pet name?

Thanks DJ. True story too.

The latter. Yobo is the Korean word for "honey."

Good for you, chemgal.  You have made a decision to stand for something. Don't let others discourage you. Stand firm.

 Thanks everyone!

Other people's opinions don't bother me, I just don't know why they would even care if I choose to wait.  Years ago it did bother me sometimes, but I've grown up since then.  People here tend to be quick to jump on those who judge people for having premarital sex, but when it's the opposite way around people don't seem to have an issue with the judgemental thinking.

You guys are all being too supportive though .  Where are the people who think that waiting means that one isn't comfortable with their sexuality, there's a good chance you'll be stuck married to someone bad in bed, etc etc etc?  It's been pretty one-sided here so far!

lol I'll keep the candles to a minimum.

Statistically very few people are virgins on their wedding day, but a few are. There are routinely polls and such on the subject. The original statement could be considered approximately correct, if you allow for a little hyperbole.

I stand by the point of what I said, jon. I don't really care that the statement might be statistically approximately correct. The statistics are of no value at all on what is essentially a personal issue dealing with a person's values. When someone who isn't "doing it" (whatever it is) gets told that "everyone"  is doing it that's a subtle (or perhaps not so subtle) form of pressure or even attack - it's a way of saying "there's something wrong with you. Get with it."

I guess we have different outlooks. I see a statement of "(almost) everyone does" as a statement of bland mathematics without any real pressure in it. Maybe I place less value on "the crowd" than most people do.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/newlyweds-regret-saving-sex-for-marriag...

Newlyweds Regret Saving Sex For Marriage

WETUMKA, OK—Two weeks after their Feb. 1 wedding, Matt and Liz Kuchen, both 32, regret remaining virgins until marriage. "Why the hell did I wait?" Liz said Tuesday. "I could've been having mind-blowing sex with dozens of guys these last 15 years, and instead I spent them making little uptight speeches about how it'll be more special if I hold out." Matt agreed, saying, "Stacy Pratt totally would've done me. Oh, man."

And this is relevant how? You post an "article" from a satirical news organization. This falls into the "who gives a shit" pile.

Many people who save sex for marriage understand that they are participating in something that is unpopular. Abstinence is such a dirty word, isn't it? Heaven forbid that two people wait untill they are married untill they have sex.

Just testing to see if you've gained a sense of humour yet.

I guess I'll give it a week or two and try again.

Sorry. I have a very dry sense of humour. You'll just have to try harder.

It was essentially a statement of bland mathematics. It's also correct on common statistics parlance.

The rate of people who wait for marriage is incredibly low, even among people who claim to have waited for marriage.

It wasn't a jab at people who actually wait for marriage, although I'm not sure I've ever encountered one, it's a jab at the hypocrisey of those who preach abstinence but didn't, and likely wouldn't wait even if they had to do it all over again.

That might be the intention, but it's a statement of bland mathematics to all those except those who are being told that "not doing what you're not doing is weird because everyone's doing it." That's the problem with bland mathemetics. How do you suppose it would be received if I were speaking to a gay man and said "you know. 90% of the population aren't homosexual. Since you are you must be not normal." That's essentially the same as saying to a person who hasn't had sex until marriage that everyone else has - so what's with you?

Or you could see it as intended, which was ,ore along the lines of.

Why are you beating yourself up about your supposed failure when the people who are condemniong you for not being a virgin weren't virgins before their wedding day either.

or

Why are you worried about the condemnation of others when the people who are condemning you for not being a virgin weren't virgins before their wedding day either.

I've already said previously in this thread that if you choose to wait for marriage then I have no problem with it, aside from it really being none of my business anyways. However, if you choose to preach it as being the "right" way you're going to get some flack, since it's not only a judgemental moralism you can't support, it appears to be a biological and practical impossibility, since nobody does in any meaningful statistical definition.

I'd say more harm has been done by preaching guilt based abstinence than practically any other moralistic empty religious rhetoric.

If I may be so bold, there's only one person who is the resident expert on what I mean when I say something, and that is me. If you are unsure of my meaning, may I suggest you ask me. Trying to tell me what I mean is going to end up with you being wrong.

I waited.

I've learned long ago that to comment on the state of any individuals abstinence is a minefeild best left unplowed. So I won't comment on your particular claim.

I do know, however, and anthropological studies bear this out, that most of the people who claim to have waited, didn't. And from practical experience, growing up in a fundamentalist church where abstinence was the only accepted way, and sex before marriage was highly condemned, that there is a great deal of pressure to make otrhers believe in you abstinence, even after your inevitable failure, to the point where many even manage to convince themselves.

I have great difficulty in believing in the claims of any of the 99% of people in fundamentalist churches that claim they waited, when the reality is that 99% of them didn't wait. Somebody in that group ain't tellin' the truth.

I won't argue you on this too much Witch. First, I have no experience being in fundamentalist churches. That being said, I can confirm that in the conservative evangelical churches I've attended the same kind of pressure does go on. The only things I would question are your 99% statistics. I would be willing to believe that the majority didn't wait, but I wouldn't place the number that high.

Don't be so defensive. With due respect, I never tried to tell you what you meant. I know what you meant - I'm telling you how it "feels" to people who aren't included in the "everyone." What you mean and how it feels to others are two different things. So - if I may be so bold, there's only one person who is the resident expert on how things feel to me, and that is me. As anyone with even minimal training in communications theory will tell you - what is actually said and what is actually heard are two completely different things.

Nor, by the way, have I ever tried to "guilt" anyone into anything - through preaching or any other means. You make your own moral calls.

That is the most - and that's saying a lot here on WC (and it disappoints me coming from you, Witch, because basically I find you an intelligent and respectful person) - arrogant statement I have ever heard. So you're going to take your cute little bundle of statistics and suggest that anyone who claims to have waited for sex until being married (as I and my wife did - and we're not even fundamentalists) are liars. I'd tell you what you can do with your statistics, but children can read this forum.

I didn't expect for you to agree with me.

I'll be blunt and admit that I was a loose guy in my day! for a little while anyhow....

It was kind of my downward spiral with myself that I chose to go to church and search for that meaning in life thing and I met my wife there.

Then I got married and went straight to hell. lol.

She'd never done the same lifestyle as me, and it gave me that temporary ego for a bit thinking wow! she is untouched! unused! (I know thats bad!) was not the reason though.

It was actually better, more pleasurably in every kind of way than any experience I had before. 

I can't speak for others but I tend to jump on those who show judgmental thinking either way - which perhaps makes me equally guilty of judging.

In the other thread I refrained from jumping in - so many things to pounce on, so little time - but the thing that stood out for me in that particular thread was the poster's admission that he, too, was not a virgin, and yet he was negatively judging the other.

As with all things in life, I believe that personal choices are just that, personal.  A choice can not be imposed but it can be mutually shared.

If one finds another who shares, or even respects, one's choices, one is truly blessed.

LB

To live is to choose. But to choose well, you must know who you are and what you stand for, where you want to go and why you want to get there.

     Kofi Annan

 Chasen,

I've seen that onion link before and found it amusing.

Witch,

I suspect that more people are being honest about whether or not they waited, as premarital sex is more acceptable.  It would depend on the situation (probably not so accurate if you base it on fundamental or other very conservative religious groups, or parents telling their kids that they waited).

Interestingly, someone once told a mutual friend that I was waiting because I was Christian (not 100% accurate, but I could explain further).  His response was that he could never  belong to a religion that didn't allow sex before marriage.  He was catholic 

Ok, I'll bite, lol!  I can only speak from my own personal experience here.  I married my first lover at age 20, and it took me 16 years to figure out he was a really lousy lover.  When you don't know any different, it takes a lot longer, because there is absolutely nothing to compare to. 

My female friends don't talk graphically about sex, porn is strictly created for the camera, so it is actually unreal, and books are, well, just not the same as real life experience.  I began to discover  things from another man who was an incredibly good flirt, very open, intelligent and unafraid to talk about anything.  My mind was opened to a totally different kind of man. However, we did not have a physical affair.

I separated after 18 years of marriage, total of  20 years with my ex.  I had a boyfriend within 10 days, and learned first hand the joy and richness that each partner can bring to life.  It wasn't all peaches n'cream of course, but the marriage sure wasn't either.  

My advice to you would be to know yourself sexually/physically very, very thoroughly.  If you can develop a strong sexual sense of yourself, then when sex with your partner begins, you won't be floating around for 16 years wondering whats wrong!

Ater going thru what I did, I would never ever think of marrying someone that I had not developed a satisfactory sex life with first.  Its a very important part of marriage, and deserves as much or more attention as the many other big life questions that come with that commitment.

Congratulations, btw!

Oui's explaination pretty much sums up my arguement against waiting.  But to each their own.

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

Ditto. Her final paragraph particularly struck me as being in harmony with my own thoughts on the subject.

Mendalla

 *sigh* If I'd only known back then......

Oh well, once bitten, twice shy, lol!

TMI

Come on chansen, there's no such thing as too much information you know that!

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni