Elanor, I disagree.  I don't think there are more wimpy women than there are wimpy men.  I think how it manifests is sometimes different.  A women is probably more likely to primarily be physically pushed around, while men are probably primarily verbally pushed around with some crossover between the 2 types of abuse.

I don't think most men need to be kept on track or pushed.  In a healthy relationship both people should want to contribute, and some encouragement from their partner is helpful from time to time.

I know what you're getting at Elanor.  A lot of it is generational. How a girl sees her father treat her mother is regarded as "the way it is",  Be it good or bad.  The father is the first real 'man' figure in the girl's life and that is who she measures all others to and what she is used to.

As far as men laying around all day, it makes me wistful in some ways for a MUCH simpler time when if the man laid around all day, he and his family starved.

I find myself taking a bit of exception to this statement as it seems to put the blame on the woman. I have a friend who is just coming out of an extremely abusive relationship (think death threats). The guy is very charming and manipulative and kept convincing her that things would change if only she would take him back. He blames her for everything bad that has happened in his life since they met and told her that if he ever went back to jail he would be forced to become a drug dealer (he's already spent several months in jail because of previous abuse in their relationship). Of course, being told that over and over again has had an effect on her mental health. As a friend I have reminded her over and over again, "It's not your fault, he was the one who hurt you and he needs to face the consequences - whatever they may be." Her other friends have been saying the same sorts of things and it is finally working (restraining orders, etc., are in place and a preliminary court date has been set for next week).

Thanks Somegal, there was so much on different levels that my gut disagreed with in the OP that I couldn't put all into words and I think your point included some of it.

Elanor, maybe I'm not fully understanding your point?  If it is as I read it, then I completely disagree.

i don't know if it is relevant to this conversation, but my daughter did something that i am rather proud of last week...

she broke up with this guy months ago, for various reasons.  he still carries a torch for her, though, and lately has taken to texting her in his dark moments and telling her that he is 'going to end it all'... last week, he texted her and said that he had 'a gun in his mouth'.

my daughter called his mother immediately and told her what he had said.

the next morning, he texted her that he was furious and couldn't believe that she had called his parents on him.  i told her i thought it was absolutely the right thing to do... when someone is getting ready to commit suicide, you need to act.

her comment was that she didn't think he was serious about the suicide thing, but she was tired of him trying to make all this HER problem.

i hugged her.  what a SMART kid i have!!!

Well done on your daughter's part Sighs.

I don't mean to put down abused women. I feel terrible for them. But I do think there's something off about how we women will stay with a man at all, who shows any sign of aggression towards her. It takes a lot for a woman to decide to leave. I'm talking more about setting boundaries, like in other relationships, such as friendships and parents, that we need to let it be known where the line is drawn: How much flirting is allowed, how much arguing is allowed, how far a woman can go before breaking down in tears, what she can and cannot forgive being said, and income. I know that not all men need to be pushed to get work. But it does seem that times have changed to the extent that a couple no longer consider a man's ability to pay the bills before getting married, that a man is no longer concerned that he can provide a decent home for his wife, becaus eshe is emancipated now, and she can support him!

I know I'm sounding a bit sexist, I'm just trying to figure this out. I miss structure, and yes, that's the way my family worked. Things are different now. I see too many women working full time at the office, while their man works on a far fetched "home based business" idea, and hasn't had a real job since he was 19 or something. 

I wonder if it's wimpy of us to allow this. I know lots of you will dissagree. I once did too. Now I'm just wondering.

I have a male friend whose wife makes a lot more money per hour than him. She works full-time and he works part-time and spends the rest of his time with their little girl. They are both very passionate about their work and both seem to be happy with this arrangement, so who am I to question or judge it?

A friend of mine got a big promotion at her governement job.  There was a big write-up in the local paper including mention of the salary that went with this job.  The next day her husband went to work and a colleague asked him:  "What does a man feel like when his wife earns more than he does?"

He answered:   "Lucky."

My family is full of strong-minded women and wimpy* men.  I think going against the stereotypes is encoded in to our DNA or something.  The women have usually been the ones to make all the major decisions and the men have usually just gone along with them.  The way it looks in my family is that my husband is the stay at home dad and I'm the one working outside the home.  He does dishes and laundry.  In general I'm much more assertive than he is, too.

*I used wimpy only because that was the word used for women.  "Agreeable" might be a better adjective for the men, although some do in fact have their wimpy moments.

I think the 2 are completely separate issues.  The first comes from society pressures.  It's gotten much better, but I think there is still a bit of pressure to be a nice girl, don't rock the boat too much.  I would say it's less to do with friendships and more when in public or dealing with strangers.  Women do tend to apologize more than men (and sometimes they really shouldn't be) and I think this comes from what we're taught (and not just at home).

The second part isn't an issue I see.  There are deadbeat women and deadbeat men, I don't see one sex being worse than the other.  I don't see an issue in a relationship when both people are contributing to it; however it best works for them.  When one person is using the other it's an issue, but one that I see going both ways.

YES!

Somegal, I don't mean that kind of situation, where the woman already had a well paying, satisfying job she's happy with.

Seeler, your example shows that this is still an issue in our culture. And the man's reaction also is an example, that he likes it!

Mists, men going along with their women, they used to do that by going to work and bringing home the bacon. Maybe because the women expected it...

Chemgal, yes we're taught to be nice, always have been. In the past society expected men to work, so men expected to work and take care of their women. Now that it isn't expected, and we women are still busily being nice. I was thinking about the old saying, "behind every great man there's a great woman". Wasn't it because a great woman would know how to encourage, support and direct her man to succeed? Women used to contribute by having lots of babies, and having lots of housework to do, now we have neither so have to contrubute in different ways, which usually means work outside the home. I agree both partners need to contribute in some way both for the other's sake and for their own sake of usefullness and self worth.

Here's a thought for everybody: Would you propose to a man who had few financial prospects for the future? Would you accept a proposal from a man who had few prospects? How do you feel about women proposing? How do you feel about convienience marriage, done in a matter of fact way with no romance, where no one proposed? Is that sad?

Why are so many fewer people getting married these days?

I listened to an audio book last year which surveyed men and women all around the world, and tallied up the results, which stated that what women look for most in a man is: older than her, taller than her, and money. What men look for in a woman is: prettiness, devotion, and younger than him. That sums it up pretty significantly to me, and confirmed my suspicion about human nature in mate selection.

Maybe I've just been watching too many romantic period films... and looking at family tree a lot... What about chivalry?

I've got myself a new avatar to reflect these thoughts. Woman keeping her man in order! And chivalry too! Woman, the true ruler of the home!

The answer to both of these questions is "Yes." This is, of course, assuming I'm in love with him.

Although I have always fantasized about having a man propose to me, I would have no problem doing the proposing.

By marriages of convenience, are you referring to situations where, for example, someone is trying to avoid getting deported? If that's what you are referring to, I often feel rather conflicted about them. On the one hand you've got someone who wants to be a contributing member of society, but on the other hand they are doing something illegal.

We didn't have a proposal exactly, but I'm the one who brought up marriage and he said yes.  He was a landscaper who made about $25,000/year and at that point I was making a little over twice that much as a teacher, knowing that my salary would continue to increase while his wasn't.  Romance has never been high in our relationship, although love, caring and friendship are.  Yes, I miss romance and passion, but it's also very warm and comfortable to be with someone I trust and can live with peacefully.  I don't feel particularly sad that I never got a big proposal; to be honest, I've never understood that way of becoming engaged.  I always thought it should be a series of conversations about important issues, finding out if there were any "deal breakers" and negotiating things, then gradually coming to the decision that this was the right person and the right time. 

I've known women who were waiting for their boyfriends to pop the question and I was always puzzled about why he got to decide when to ask, and why she would hang around waiting when it seemed unlikely that he wanted the same things.  Then again, I've also known women who said that they had found Mr. Right because he had a great car or lots of money or was very good looking.  I wanted someone who would make me laugh, who would be a good father, who I could count on when I needed him.  I can't lie...more money would have been great, but I'd rather have my poor husband over a rich guy who didn't feel right.

Thank you for those answers, and I have many thoughts, but not prepared to write them all out here.

One thought though, is that we do the majority of our selecting before we get to the proposing stage.

ANd as I was out walking just now, I remembered a single man hubby and I met years ago, who's wife had left him and taken the kids. They had been living in a remote part of BC, in two camping trailers parked together with a makeshift room made of plywood and corugated roofing joining them. They had two or three kids. He was full of plans, and dreams, and a really nice, funny, interesting and pleasant guy to be around, but she felt things just weren't going anywhere and she didn't want the kids to grow up like that and was fed up. So her father bought her a proper mobile home in a community down the road, and the kids would visit dad for a couple days a week. He was lonely, and still full of dreams when we met him, and living in the same condition, but we totally understood his wife's reasoning. It must have taken a lot of strength on her part to make a move.