I don't think it's presumptuous to say that the Moncton clergy have confirmed their position.

 graeme, 

 

You did not go into the issue, but your language in the first paragraph of this post would have had me say "thank you very much for your concern and offer, but no thank you."

 

For me, your use of language like "smear campaign" and the repeated use of "I know" and "false" hints at an agenda, a stance fully and fervently formulated, and maybe even an axe nearby that perhaps needs grinding.... By that type of language, it does not appear that it would be an information session where people could formulate their own opinion.

 

So, in that position, I would likely refrain from it entering the sanctuary. I would also likely not announce either sides "forum" date, even if it was held in a public venue.  

 

It is not about how much you make for speaking. Heck, Dubya got $150, 000 plus private jet or first class for four when he spoke in Calgary in 2009 and gets $100, 000 + perks when he speaks near his home in Texas. 

 

The insult that you can preach better is well, just an insult. Comes from having something you are passionate about and feel they are not listening. The "bread crumb chewers and grape juice sippers" was just to add to it. 

I can't speak for the clergy, but I know that my congregation only advertises things that are involving church work - mostly stuff that relates directly to our congregation. If you come to my church you will hear about our Fall Fair, or our library, or the M & S campaign for Pakistan - but not about a talk about the education system at the local library. I don't believe it's up to the clergy, not matter what they may think of the issue, to do your advertising for you. Your insults certainly don't help your cause.

 so because busy clergy haven't resonded to your pet peeve they are due your obvious contempt?

 

Perhaps your obvious disdain for New Brunswick , which you have highlighted here before, is well known and others believe you have an agenda, not so hidden.

 

Many groups email our church for a notice in our bulletin and in general, we promote things put on by our neighbourhood churches of various faiths and things done for charity,

 

 

 

Oh I just know I'll regret asking this but why not the Baptists?

Oh jae....Please.....Don't poke the bear

 

That would be my reaction, too.

Graeme, maybe you should move to a different province if you hate it so much.

Hi graeme,

 

 

I won't speak for my fellow clergy in Moncton.  I will only speak for myself.

 

If you had left a message on my machine asking me to announce the event I would have announced it or seen that it made its way into the printed announcements.  I probably would have editted your initial paragraphs to save space in the bulletin and to avoid some of the perjorative language.

 

Unless you had asked me specifically to call you back I wouldn't.

 

I don't have much of a clue about the issue you want to address.  I understand your frustration I doubt that I would invite you to speak yourself if I thought you might be verbally abusive.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

I like the province. I like the people. I despair of the prim, tuckupyourskirts attitude demonstrated by the clergy in this post.

As to a smear campaign - I have decades experience in the media. How much to you have? What do you know about think tanks? What do you know about propaganda and smear campaigns?

So nice to do church things - like having teas and bazaars. That's what Jesus wanted from us.

I didn't say I'm offering an opinion. I have evidence. I have it from sources a lot more reliable than millionaire's think tanks. I have the figures from UNICEF, the articles for 60 years of educational research around the world. I have the editorials from an unethical Moncton newspaper. Do  you know what journalistic ethics are? I've taught it.

In a recent editorial, the Moncton Times addressed a report that New Brunswick has the highest high school completion rate in Canada. That puts it way ahead of the US and, in fact, probably close to the best in the world. Good news? Not to the Moncton Times. It devoted its space to a rant that the figures were probably false. It's headline was "Teachers should stop worrying about rankings, and teach ALL the students."

Where the hell that statement came from I don't know. In fact, the Times had been screaming at them for two years to pay attention to rankings. And they gave no reason whatever for the notion that some children weren't being taught.That's unethical. Can you self-righteous clergy even spell it?

If some of you clergy would take a break from being publicly pious, you might learn that standardized tests do NOT test either teaching or the school system. They reflect the child's parenting and social status. Do you understand that?

Do you understand what it's like to be a teacher when you and publicly humiliated and ranted at in the press at least weekly. Do you know h ow kids feel to be in the public schools ranked low (the ones with poor kids? I went to a school like that. And I well remember the humiliation and the pious do-nothingness of our local minister.)

The family that owns most of the news media is also a major backer of the Atlantic Institute of Marketing Studies, a sort of associate of The Fraser Institute. Think of that. When you are puzzled by a Bible passage, do you say, "Oh, I must get the advice of the Atantic Institute of Marketing Studies?" There are thousands of scholars of education. The Atlantic Institute is a propaganda agency for multi-billionaires who want a slice of the education budget. They now effectively control the education system - and it's coming to your province.

I know well the sort of clergy who have replied to this thread. You are the same breed who supported the Canadian governments (yes, they did) in keeping out Jews who escaped from Germany from the rise of Hitler until after 1945. Read some History. The Minister of Education most of that time was a big name nationally in Sunday Schools, and was also a flaming anti-semite.

"Well, we don't want any unpleasantness, do we?"  "If only people would be nice to each other, it would be so much better."

I notice that not one clergyman who has replied comes from Moncton.

Why no Baptists? Down here, they have a university which fires professors who might be gay. That sounds too much like the kind of clergy I've seen responding to this thread.

I was going to be a United Church minister in my teens. But flunking high school put paid to that. Thank you , God.

I have children in school. I am damned if I will allow those bastards to take my children for their personal profit. Now i have to wonder what church I want them in.

"Well, we mustn't have any unpleasantness....mustn't we?"

And if you're such hot preachers, how come church attendance is dropping?

revjohn - As to being verbally abusive, I have routinely drawn monthly audiences for fifteen years of two to three hundred. They were mostly Jewish. I am somewhat critical of the Israeli government, and the issue often came up.. I didn't draw all those people all th ose years by being verbally abusive to audiences.  I was invited to speak to groups on an average of 60 times a year for thirty years. I have spoken to delegations of European parliamentary reps, international law conferences, provincial teachers' conventions, Senate committess and House of Commons Committees.  I don't need smugly prim reminders about how to speak to an audience.

I am deeply disappointed,and angry, at the listlessness of the clergy as, I hope, I would have been at their listlessness in the face of Nazi persecution and the Holocaust.

And if you disapprove of me for that, I really don't care. Indeed, I wear your disapproval with pride.

graeme,

 

You are not even attempting a broad brush paint job. You are more grabbing a can of spray paint and vandalizing. 

 

I am definitely not a prim, uptight, do not make waves type. You cannot be a queer in the pulpit where people "never seen one before" and be a kiss ass. Also, FYI my butt has been in the trenches of social justice issues, before the UCC and since. I am not a do-nothing.

 

Smear campaigns? My whole life.... from being called a child molester to a freak of nature.... As for media, that is where my wife and I both have made our livings. 

 

I have never supported standardized tests. As an inner city kid, I know kids  could read but stuff about ballet and opera said "you cannot comprehend this". I knew as a dyslexic they were not fair..... They have gender bias,  social bias, economic bias....

 

But, this is the first you mentioned what the issue actually was. Some of us do not know what is happening in Moncton and as I said google hit on nothing... Like most folks don't know we had a tornado in my locale. 

 

We could have been on the same page, but I am done being smeared about being a pious tea sipper for asking questions and trying to clarify ....while the "real" Jesus follower beats up on people and spews bile.  

 

 You wanted a rant,  hope you feel better soon. 

 

 

It would be more helpful if you engaged in some civil discussion of your issue, however, instead of spewing your anger and unhappiness.

Hi graeme,

 

 

That might very well may be.  My experience observing you in WonderCafe shows that while you are not verbally abusive all the time it still happens.  If I had to make a decision based on what I have seen of you here I'm not certain which way I would decide.

 

I appreciate your grasp of history and your ability to share your understanding of the same.  I would worry about your response to what you perceive to be a stupid question.  That worry may be completely unfounded at this point I would err on the side of caution.

 

 

Perhaps not.  You are not winning this audience member over at present.

 

 

Which I can appreciate.

 

 

It is not a matter of disapproval or approval.  It is a matter of what I would do with what I know.

 

What I know, so far is that you contacted Churches and asked for the clergy to announce or invite you to announce a speaking engagement concerning the public education system and that none have returned your call.

 

If I was located in the Moncton area and was reading this thread and your evaluation of myself and my colleagues I wouldn't be tripping all over myself to return your call.  I'm not sure how many of my colleagues from the Moncton area are here on WonderCafe.

 

Another thing.  I may be the Minister in a pastoral relationship with a congregation.  I do not call the shots.  So I get a message from you and while I can put that message in the bulletin or read it as an announcement it isn't my place to invite you in alone.  Some clergy don't mind calling the shots that way, I'm too Presbyterian to overstep the congregational lay leadership on such matters.  If the congregational leadership agreed I'd contact you with the invitation.  If they didn't I would call you and decline the offer.

 

I have no idea why my colleagues have not returned your call.

 

I afraid I don't know any more than that.  I've attempted a search on the internet to see if I could find something.  I don't have a lot of criteria to search with.  What I did find is that the People's Alliance of New Brunswick has a list of initiatives that it would like to see implemented.

 

I am just now skimming through that to see if there is anything that sticks out as being immoral.  I would appreciate more clarity on the issue.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

For all of you.

I did not spit abusive words in my requests to the clergy. The abusive words came out of disappointment and anger at their lack of response.

In cntacting the clergy, I knew they did not have the background in education or politics to know what is going on. They can't, because the press has either failed to understand it or, more commonly, is acting in collusion with the "think tanks". I have seen that even in The Globe.

I resented revjohn's assumption that I must have used abusive language in contacting the clergy.

I wrote them a page to try to explain the origins of this whole problem. It's very hard to explain something to people when they have no idea about it. How many clergy would you guess are familiar with the dominant role of parentage in school success? Who many clergy understand the origins of neo conservatism and its connection with the philosophy of Ayn Rand - which is the denial of the principles of every major religion in the world? It preaches the virtue of greed and thinking only of yourself.

How many clergy are aware of the connection between neoconservatism and think tanks like The Atlantic Institute of Market Studies and The Fraser Institute? Those institutes openly stand for a philosophy that is anti-Christian. They are bankrolled by extremely wealthy and influential people. Their purpose is to make the rich richer.

Why on earth would a government ask a marketing institute for advice on how to build its schools? Why would a government ignore virtually all the findings of education scholars all over the world over the past half century and more?

How can we be Christians, and remain ignorant and inactive in the face of a philosophy which denies all we believe in, and wants power over our children to make them items on the open market?

That's not opinion. There are libraries full of documentation on it. For just a ten page paper on the subject, I had to append almost 40 pages of documents - most from scholars of education, and from the UN - which has a large and very expert staff on this.

I didn't have ten pages with the clergy. I had only one. Every try to explain the above from scratch without sounding alarmist?

I explained to them that this is a moral issue. I tried to explain it has implications that go even beyond education.

And not one of them even bothered to acknowledge my note had been received. The United Church minister I spoke to - in reasonable terms - was obviously bored and uninterested.

Nor do I share revjohn's casual dismissal of such requests. I had asked only for interest, perhaps a request to get more information, perhaps a mention to parents who might be interested in my talk. revjohn, apparently, doesn't answer such requests. He just sits in his office and decides what is good for his congregation to hear.

When I get a request, I acknowledge it. It happens often. If I decline it, I do the sender the decent thing and, if I do not agree to it, I tell him so and why. That is, I think,a fairly standard practice.

I started with civil discussion. What I got in return was abuse from some readers. And i wasn't given the courtesy of a hearing by the clergy.

New Brunswick and its two major parties and its forest and its industries and its media and its "think tank" are dominated by one, multi-billionaire family. It makes Harper look broad minded and tolerant. I've tried school boards and home and school. The power of that family trickles all the way down. People are actually afraid to speak about these things in public.  The universities are silent. They know who the boss is.  No education employee can say a word because it would be professional suicide.

Meanwhile, damage is being done to our children.

I turned to the clergy because it's very hard to do it alone. I know I'm a target. I've been in that position before - in Quebec. Dissent is not tolerated.  And because the worship of a philosophy of greed and self interest is a moral issue, I tuned to my church. I regret now that I did. I would have preferred to keep my illusions.

When I got nothing but silence from them, you're damn right I got angry and abusive. And you're damn right I have a lot of anger and unhappiness to spew.

Minimally, if rev john got such a request, he could google my name, and see if I have any of the expertise I claim. If his handling of requests is typical of our clergy, then I have a lot more anger to spew.

 

Graeme, I can understand your frustration and anger with apathetic and pathetic public responses to serious issues.  As a native Albertan, I am frequently embarassed, frustrated and angry with our psuedo democracy.  But I try to refrain from attacking everyone in my sight.  As a teacher, I have a lot of issues with some aspects of our education system, and want to see some changes.

 

As a member of the clergy, I feel frustrated by how many congregations and clergy are responding to what is happening to most churches, and to society.  But I hope I don't say or do anything to make them feel belittled.

 

I believe I would really enjoy and appreciate serious face-to-face discussions with you. For example, your rant on another thread about the states reminded me of a conversation I had over 30 years ago with a cleaning contractor who had a graduate degree in political science, owned several houses, and was on his way to establishing a substantial amount of wealth.  He told that, if Canada ever elected a progressive government, the Marines would be Ottawa the next morning.

 

 However, I am disappointed by your rants in which you attack whole groups of people.  I fear it hurts your credibiility and reduces your potential effectiveness in shaping important debates.

 

I sincerely wish you all the best, and hope the meeting on October 7 is successfull in promoting positive change in Moncton.

I did not attack whole groups. I attacked a very wealthy family which has inordinate power in this province. I attacked those who subscribe to the Ayn Rand philosophy of greed and self-interest. I attacked a specific group of clergy for their indifference.

I am  defending a very large group of teachers who are being publily beliittled and humiliated in our news media. I am also defending tens of thousands of children, my own among them, who are being converted into market vouchers.

As to a rant about the US, please point out something I wrote that was false. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I think torture is wrong. I think murdering 200,000 Mayans was wrong. I don't think they should have murdered priests and nuns, even if they were Catholic. I think it's wrong to murder or exile elected presidents. I think it's wrong to invade a country and kill a million people to get its oil. Anything I have said about the US, I have evidence for.

However, for a starter, check UNICEF public school rankings on google. Contrary to the tone set by most of our press and "think tanks", Canadian public schools are rated among the best in the world. Canadians are the most educated people in the world. UNICEF also says that standardized tests are useless for evaluation of schools or teachers.. But all of Canada is going for standardized (and usually privatized) testing to make public ranking of schools. There is a big move to privatize education - and everything else. It's well-financed, equipped for propaganda, and well-connected.

If anybody has evidence to the contrary about any opinion I have offered in this or any post, I would be delighted to civilly discuss it. But I can't discuss things with clergy who don't even acknowledge a request.

Hi graeme,

 

 

You would be right to resent such an assumption if I had made it.  I didn't.

 

In my initial response to you I did say:

 

 

I also said:

 

 

Which was an assessment that I did not make based on the request to share information but rather experience of you here.

 

 

Did I say that I would not pass on that you were speaking or did I say I wouldn't invite you to speak?

 

Did I say that I wouldn't respond unless you specifically asked or did I say that I wouldn't respond at all.

 

 

Which I did.  I even remembered your surname without having to ask for it.  This is what I found:

 

Graeme Decarie 
Graeme Decarie grew up in Montreal, attended public schools and was kicked out in grade 11. He attended Sir George Williams (now Concordia) while employed as a Social Group Worker at the nearby YMCA. Not doing well at Sir George, he decided instead to go to Teacher's College. He taught History and English at elementary and high school for six years. He subsequently obtained his MA from Acadia University in New Brunswick and his PhD at Queen's University. He returned east to teach briefly at the University of PEI and has since 1971 taught history at Concordia University. He also worked also CBC Radio for about 10 years, and then at CJAD and has written short stories and columns for numerous publications including the Gazette and Reader's Digest. He is currently a columnist for the West Island Chronicle.

 

Which tells me  where you went to school, what you teach and that you have media experience.  It doesn't tell me that you have expertise pertaining to an issue which you shared with the clergy in Moncton but did not initially share here for the benefit of those of us not in Moncton.

 

I'll stand back while you work up some more bile.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

 

 

That's what you found in google? That's all you found?

There were last time I looked, over 20,000 entries. The only one you bothered to look at was a very brief note I had written for a man who had to introduce me. If you had a couple more, you might have have noted rather more activity and production that your ABC glance revealed.

As to abusive language, you say you would probably had edited my note to avoid the perjorative language. I think I can understand the meaning of that sentence. Can you?

I am no longer angry at you. I am not longer angry at the church. I have recognized, to my sorrow, that you and the church are simply irrelevant. If I want to act in a Christian way, obviously I'm on my own.

I note, too, that not a single clergymen from Moncton has written to this thread.

I now leave the anger and prejoratives to the clergy. Enjoy. It's good food for the self-righteous.

Considering the fact that you called them "bread crumb chewers and grape juice sippers", why would they respond?  Your comments are unbelievably rude and condescending.

 

If they did respond, you would rip them apart with your insults.  I actually had a great deal of respect for your comments until this series of posts.

 

 

1:

we do not know if any clergy from Moncton are even active on WC so how could they respnd to a discussion of which they are not a part?

 

2:

it is not clear that people HAD to respond to you.  THey could have done what John suggested he would have done--posted an announcement about your presentation.

 

3:

just because you have passion about something does not mean any congregation would see participation as part of their misssion at this time.  It isn't all about you (and yes I know yhou claim it is about the children of NB but it startys to saound like it is all about you).

 

4:

do you realize graeme how arrogant you come across when you are riding one of your hobby horses?  anyone who does not agree with you is an idiot incapable of rational thought.  anyone whom you have not enlightened simply does not (or can not) understand the issue.  Just reead your post a few upthread where you insist that clergy do not or can not understand various issues--without discussing it with them of course.  I would suggest that you are wrong in several points of that post but you seem happy to assume only you bring unformation and understanding to the discussion.  the arrogance you exude does not invite people to enter discussion with you.

SG - I sent those clergy a one page note to try to give them the background. Try to condense that into one page. They could have asked me for more information. They didn't.

As to an explanation of standardized testing, I have a whole thread of it under parenting.   I believe it also includes useful sources.

In two weeks or so, I'm supposed to appear to present my ten page report to the District Education Committee. At least three member of the committee are senior employees of the family that runs the province. That chairman is an ex MLA for the party that introduced standardized testing. I have not heard from them after sending my report. My guess is that my inivitation will be withdrawn. If I do present, there is not possibility whatever it weill be reported in the media. (And one of the committee members in a senior employee of the newspaper.)

The people I am challenging control the news media, the government, local committees of all sorts.  They keep stacks of lawyers in their dresser drawers.

In Quebec, I was Vice-President and then Chairman of the anglo rights group in a period when we were frequently warned by police to evacuate our offices. I well remember the day they were torched, and the police and the francophone media did their best to convince everyone that we had done it.

The oppression in New Brunswick is much worse. I think the marketing of our children is a serious moral issue. I think the organized slandering of our teachers in order to put money into the pockets of already rich people is a serious moral issue.

I thought that my church would surely be at least willing to think about the possibility. I was wrong. I am no longer angry at the church. I no longer care what it thinks.  I apologize for that to my former pastor in BaieVerte/Port Elgin, Jim Shaffner, a model of what I think a Christian should be and a source of help in a troubled time for which I shall never forget him. (he's now retired in Nova Scotia) 

And I'll continue. I just cannot think that Jesus should have kept his mouth shut in the temple.

Oh, and when our Montreal officed were torched, the only church that offered us a place to meet in thos tense and often frightening times was a Catholic church. I could never become a Catholic. But I respect it for that. I also learned that, when I was working on Social Action at my United church in Montreal, the only place I could find organization and working material on it was in the Catholic church. When I needed a prominent speaker on the subject to get my congregation interested, the only person I could find was Warren Allmand, an old friend I had met back in his parilamentary days - and a Catholic.

 

Graeme, if you sent me a one page summary about an education issue, I would probably read it and file it. If you want my attention, tell me how your issue connects with my ministry, and even better, tell me how it connects with my faith. Otherwise it's going to the file. You have to engage my passion. You haven't.

 

Standardized testing is mandated in Ontario and conducted by the EQAO. My children have been through it. It was brought in by the Mike Harris Tories. It has not ended the world. It did, in some cases, cause some staff changes at oneschool in our board, with salutory effect (according to parents) on school environment.

 

Welcome to the very small and somewhat incestuous world of New Brunswick. I was in ministry there for eight years. It sounds like nothing has changed. You either live with it or work within it. Changing it is almost impossible.

 

With whom they all went to school/are married to their relatives/are their bosses/employees or are neighbours. Take your pick. And you are from away. Live in Moncton for about 25 years and you might be listened to.

 

The same dynamics operate in New Brunswick.

 

What you think is a serious moral issue may not be seen that way by others.

Because it doesn't agree with your perspective?  In the great scheme of things, as a pastor, this iss ue isn't  high on my radar. When I'm doing pastoral care, have funerals coming out the wazoo and trying to say something meaningful for Sunday, I have a dozen things that claim my energy. What makes your issue important?

 

If I were a Moncton area minister, then frankly, graeme, along with the one page summary, I'd have appreciated some sort of brochure to publicize the event. It seems that you didn't give a lot of notice to even give me time to follow up with you if I chose to. (From the timeline described in the thread, a little over a week.) Unlike you, you see, I'm not retired, and my calendar tends to get pretty full pretty fast. I'm sure you  believe that your event is more important than anything else on my schedule. I - or those among whom I'm actually doing my ministry - might disagree with that assessment. However, if you sent me a brochure, I'd have probably put it on the community bulletin board in the church, to which people's attention could then be drawn in the Sunday service. You see, to save paper, some churches only put in their bulletins church related announcements. There's sometimes a bulletin board in the church on which various community events can be publicized, and a reminder in the bulletin telling people to check that bulletin board out.

Thank you for confriming the opinion I had already formed about a great many clergy.

I told them how it connects with their ministry. My mistake is in not realizing their ministry consists largely of thinkiing of something nice to say at funerals and checking out suggestion books to find a topic for Sunday. It's tought when you really have nothing to say.

So - I should accept New Brunswick as it is. Too bad you weren't around to slip that as a helpful word to Jesus.

You don't think stantardized testing harms anything. Pllease communicate your deep thoughts to the education scholars all over the world who think if does.

The church has become irrelevant not because I don't agree with your perspecitve, but because you don't have one.

You're right, though. You're living in a world in whcih greed has become an acceptable reason for causing all sorts of damage. But your a busy man. you have to think of sometohing meaningful to say. I can see where that would be a challenge for you.

Anyway, I no longer give a damn what you think. Your ideas are shallow and prissy. Enjoy your social teas.

 

Oh? And what exactly did you day? Other than a rant and insult session, you haven't told us what you said. Just your own opinion, which appears to be quite high, of yourself.

 

 

Have you walked a mile in my shoes? If not, then your judgement is quite facile, among other things.

 

No, I didn't say that. I just suggest your social analysis is deeply lacking. I've seen it before, with the same frustration. An Upper Canadian writer of some national distiction came to the community where I lived in New Brunswick. He said much the same as you on another issue. The locals ignored him. He went away. As will you, if you persist. Your lashing out is step one. You (or your opinion) has been marginalized, maybe for the first time in your adult life and you are pissed off about it. Sp you take the cheap target, your church.  

 

Not the current iteration as practiced in Ontario.

 

So you are hurt and angry and you turn to insults. Your privilige. That does not mean I am any less of a person, however. In spite of your depreciation.

 

I do enjoy the one's made by Christies Biscuits.

graeme, your disdain is obvious and I won't encourage you to sink lower than you already have. 

 

You do not wish to hear about anyone's involvement with water wells where there is no access to clean water, flip flop campaigns for children rooting through garbage, building and equipping schools overseas, activism about bullying, cancer runs.... foodbank work... the list goes on.

 

You would rather envision your enemies, and that is how you are treating people, as sitting around sipping tea and doing nothing. Why? Because some clergy in Moncton did not phone you back. Why? Because people living hundred and thousands of kilometers away were not aware of the issue you spoke of. Why? Because some do not agree with you.....

 

Because of that, you are one step from accusing them all of being too busy being perverts. That is where you have sunk to. 

 

 Interesting thread.  

 

Graeme has a point.  I've lived in New Brunswick and taught at UNB and seen first hand that people (including university professors and , I guess, clergy too) really do fear "crossing" the ruling family there.  When I first saw it I could hardly believe it but the longer you live there the more palpable is the feeling that people do not express opinions and measure their words when speaking of the "family" and matters which concern it.

 

What is everyone chiding graeme about?  Well, "not being nice" of course.  About not watching his manners as if this were a social tea and not a chatroom.  What, indeed,  is wrong with the clergy in NB?  If graeme's style was too bruising ... if his letter of introduction was lacking in some way ... is this not an issue that they ought to be tuned into anyway?  When large groups in our society are being vilified or when our children's welfare is at stake,  isn't that when Christians take a stand?  Apparently not.

 

Didn't anyone smile ruefully (even a little bit) when you read that crack about "tea sippers"?  Didn't anyone think with a familiar sense of recognition and regret "Gee!  I wish I wrote that!" when graeme wrote: "So nice to do church things - like having teas and bazaars. That's what Jesus wanted from us."  I did.

 

 

 

Hi  graeme--You and I have not talked much, when we did, I thought you were mad at me. I lived in st John  N-b for about 6 years years . I worked for that family I believe your talking about , and think I understand your anger. But you know what they will an can do ,to those who are not with them.Remember the ministry lives under this same threat. They are men--Women- who must walk a very narrow path, and still they get it from both sides , Anger is not a friend , and in the end will destory you. If you could turn this anger to Love the power you would have is more than that family can stand. God bless -graeme-  My pray for you is peace , with as much Love as you like. airclean33

 

Oh? I'd apprecuate some clarity. It's not about being "nice" It's about some kind of effective communication. 

 

 

Um... not necessarily. What we have is Graeme's word (and barely that). I'm just seeking substantiation, not vicious anger.

 

 

Um... no. Because I rarely sip tea. Right now I'm trying to work with a hurting and very dysfunctional family that is grieving their mother and I'm dong the funeral this afternoon. And my congregation hasn't had a bazaar in... twenty years? You?

 

 

I cannot ignore this moral question. Even if I were not involved through my own children, I could not ignore it. Sorry I come from "upper Canada". Luckily, that has given the experience to work in the middle of bigotry and fear.

I am quite familiar with the issue of water supply in most of the world, and I have been active in that issue. I learned early, though, that if I wanted any action I would have to turn to Catholic church organizations.

Ii have a high opinion of myself? Not very high. But higher than I have for the views of the clergy I have seen in this thread. Have I insulted session? I certainly hope so. That was my intention.

It was almost a century ago that JSWoodsworth learned that if he wanted to live a Christian life, he had to get away from the Christian churches.

As to morality, the ranking of schools and privatization of education services is just the beginning of a massive counter-Christ movement, most of it led by Christians. Read their moral guide, Ayn Rand, then make a bonfire of the ten commandments and the golden rule. Yes, I think it's a moral question - and I have no patience with a clergyman who cannot see that. I h ave no patience with a clergyman who says we should conform with the local power structure.

And I have no respect for tohe intellectual ppowers of a clergyman who can live in this world and say, "Gee. I wonder what I should talk about this Sunday."

Sorry. I must rush to the Mother's League weekly Tea.

 So DKS ... graeme is the only one in NB who reads the news and thinks about it.  Only if graeme reads his newspaper and interprets it for the clergy of NB will they rouse themselves, otherwise nothing happens?  If nothing happens it is graeme's fault for not making things clear?  Sounds like a description of apathy to me ....  

I notice not one Moncton clergyman has written in; at least none has admitted to it. I find it hard to believe none is ever on wondercafe or has not by now heard about this from a local reader.

 

Or, for whatever reason, they don't agree with his point of view. And that seems to tick Graeme off.

 

I would suggest that the penetration of WonderCafe into the United Church (at least among its ministers) is not as significant as it likes to think.

Not  being a Canadian, I can't comment specifically on the New Bruswick education system.

 

Speaking generally, I'm all in favour of a public education system - and anything that could undermine it should be seriously considered.

 

 For most actions there are both good and not so good consequences.

 

For example, here in Oz in recent years, parents are demanding and getting more of a say in how their local public school is run.

More parental involvement in their kids education sounds good, doesn't it?

 

The reality is that more and more public schools are doing what private schools have always done - reflect the values and prejudices of the parents.

 

This isn't always a good thing - despite what the parents may feel. True education involves a movement out into the world, rather than a retreat inwards IMO.

 

I find it interesting that most of the comments have dealt with Graeme's manner - rather than the topic of education.

 

They are two separate issues - but it can be a struggle to keep them apart.

 

Emotion often overwhelms thought - in Graeme's case as well as the responders.

Nobody likes feeling attacked. It's understandable that the clergy here have been upset at Graeme's attack on them.

Graeme seems to me to perceive the lack of response from the clergy - on a subject he feels passionate about  - as an attack.

 

This is just my explanation of what I see unfolding here, which leaves me with this conclusion.

 

Graeme, if you're correct in your assertions about  public education in New Brunswick, you owe it to your cause to present it in the most effective manner.

 

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

 

I"m not ticked off. I've finally realized what my church stands for. I know now that I cannot rely on it even to get an answer that my message was received. Okay. I'll go on without it, and the church becomes just one more - and close to irrelevant - problem.

I'm not ticked off, anymore. I've even passed disappointment.

Oh - the clergy cited are not disagreeing with my point of view. They're disagreeeing with at least sixty years of scholarly research in education - of which they know nothing - and they're disagreeing with The Bible, with the very core of Chrisitan teaching - which they seem to regard as disposable.

 

How does your point connect with scripture? For most of the church, with the professionalization of education, it's very much "not my line". That will probably disappoint you, but education doesn't do theology very well, either.

 

You disappointment is ill-founded and, I suggest, more deeply rooted in your own feelings of rejection and abandonment.

 

Again, why should I listen to your point and what has it to do with the church and ministry? You have failed consistently to answer that question; just posted a lot of your own anger and vitriol directed at the church. That's not somehting anyone can do anything about.

 

Good point.

 

 

And that is the truth.

I  have, as I told you and as I pointed out I had discussed at length in another thread why this is a moral issue. Obviously, you're more than a little thick-headed, or possibly too lazy to look it up.

Remember my reference to Ayn Rand? Do you know her philosophy? Do you know the connection between Ayn Rand and the new-conservative movement which spawned "think tanks" like Fraser Insitute and Atliantic Institute of Market Sudies?

Professionallizaion of education  has nothing to do with it. It's been professional for centuries. I referred to the privatization of education. Do you know the difference?

Why is this a moral issue?

Privatization is introducing damaging changes in public education, damaging to the children. It is being done solely to make private profit. It is pure greed, propaganda and lying.

But you will disagree with all that, I know. You won't read anything. You won't check. You're a troll, aren't you?

I won't answer your next letter because I try to avoid trolls. And if you're for real, I prefer to avoid you.

Oh, if you think the local clergy don't know about this thread, you don't understand New Brunswick. People here don't discuss views; they report you for having them. I can assure you this whole thread has been forwarded to most of the clergy, the government, the local newspaper and, quite likely to the Atlantic Insitute of Market Studies.

Thanks to all for helping me get th is around.

oh, if somebody is still sending copies of this to people in high place (like pulpits), tell them I'll be speaking on this subject on Thursday, Oct. 7, at 2 pm at the Moncton Library. it's quite free.

You know, it's a civil courtesy, if you wish to seek response to your point, to offer a link to your original discussion. You appear to have a really high opinion of yourself and don't think much of other people. Humility, it would appear, is not a character trait for you. If that is the way you live your life, I am not surprised you have received the response you whine about. Frankly, if you presented in the same manner in person or via e-mail, I wouldn't give you the time of day.

 

 

Yes, I am familiar with both. How are they made manifest in the education system in New Brunswick?

 

 

The education system is not being privatized in Ontario. Canada is a large country. Much of it exists outside of Quebec and New Brunswick. It is helpful to offer context.

 

There is no profit-making activity in my provincial education system. We have a strong set of unions who would, in all probability, raised alarms and engage in confrontation as they did when Mike Harris and his band of pirates were in power in this province.

 

Thak you for proving the definition of the word "ass-ume".

 

That's paranioa.

 

If I were in Moncton, I might consider attending. But I live two provinces and a 24 hour drive away.

Good.

I am arrogant. That's the way of survival in the academic world.

Ayn Rand - forget love thy neighbour. Do things only in  your own interest. Be greedy. Greed is good and creates a healthy economy. Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged) is the goddess of the neoconservative movement in the US and Canada - and the inspiration for the Fraser Institute and the Atlantic Institute of Marketing Studies.

George Bush and Dick Cheney and several of the White House luminaries of recent years have been neo-conservatives. Jeb Bush helped draw up their programme in the 1990s. You'll find it in google "The New American Century". Essentially, it means world conquest - (nicely worded as American world dominance and leadership). Recently, we have learned that they were advocating war with Iraq BEFORE 9/11, and Blair was involved in setting it up.

Today, I posted a notice of the talkon a board over the bar of the Moncton Press Club. It's certainly been torn down by now. But the point has been made.

Meanwhile - notice that not one clergyman from Moncton has responded to this thread - though they will certainly have been told about it by now. That's okay. That makes them part of my talk.

Arrogant? You can bloody well believe it. And one hell of a performer on stage.

 

But it's a really lousy way to love in the real world.

 

Yes, I lived through the 90's and the eight years of neo-cons in Ontario. I bear the scars.  

 

History will be the judge of those intentions.

 

You never know. Check tomorrow morning and see.

 

Why? Did it ever occur to you that not many clergy even hang out around here? I could count on the fingers of one hand the number I know of from various United Church forums over the last twenty years who post here. This is not a place clergy hang out, especially if you keep ripping them a new one every time you post. Why the hell SHOULD they respond? As was said earlier, "More flies are caught with honey than with vinegar".

 

Makes for good theatre but not much substance, though. Expand your reprtoire. Anger and arrogance can only take you so far.