We're not "smart" or "intelligent" as much as we're different, narrowgate. What's with the quote-y things? Our faith has evolved along different paths than yours, but we're all heading up the same mountain. (And besides, trying to describe our faith among 10 posters will get you 11 descriptions.)

I'd say most posters and observers here would think that you have faith needs that might best be accommodated in an orthodox environment. I'm not sure where that gives you license to criticize other's faith choices.

Actually, there are physicists who believe that if they ever come up with a unified Theory of Everything, that they will know the mind of Godde. It would certainly penetrate the Mystery somewhat, imho.

I think your dog's probably a lot smarter that adding one and one. My dog sure is… 

narrowgate,

I agree with some of the things you say, you've made a few threads, seemingly you may consider that , your "intelligent" arguement?

you wrote:"

why don't you just accept that God is bigger than anything we can imagine and just stop trying to "understand" it. "

Im confident many here agree with you on this.

make a thread that is related  to the Gospels and Christ  that is of interest to  you,. i probably wiould like exploring the topic.

narrowgate,

don't put yourself down m'dear -- your G_d wants you to shine, not give in to fear and anxiety.

wc is a place where people have conversations...we're all pretty curious beasties; part of being on wc means we take time to get to 'know' each other.

as far as i'm concerned i think "scientists" have discovered G_d, but they, being precise, don't call it that...humans also understand infinity to the point that there are some infinities larger than other infinities...

we blow our own minds and selves

and humanity has got to the point where we've so become involved and have changed Earth so much that we must get good at being co-creators...

we've got at least 1 billion or so years before animal & plant life dies off naturally...

Wow Narrowgate - you seriously strike me as being two things 1) seriously narrow minded 2) Rather severly insecure - no one who is secure in their own faith is as terrified of questioning and questing as you seem to be. 

indeed, what's a friendly blow between friends? ;3

Why are you so angry with us, narrowgate? You don't need to listen to anything we say/ read anything we write if you don't want to. You've made it pretty clear that you think it's a waste of your time, and pretty much declared it to be false teaching. I'm sorry you feel that way. We're not prophets here, just people having conversations about ideas, many of them Biblically inspired, that interest us,  that's all. You need not pay any attention if it bothers you, but if you change your mind you're always welcome to join in.

inanna,

thats pretty rude.

Hang in there, narrowgate!  Some of us do suffer from being overly clever and we like to show it off. It's a kind of immaturity or illness. It doesn't mean that we are actually wise. So don't let it piss you off so much. Pray for us to grow up spiritually.

he doesnt seem terrified

maybe you could be more open minded and listen to his concerns, you seem to be 'boxing him in' , i dont think he is narrow minded, neither "severly insecure".

maybe he feels frustrated and insulted and  what he says here is dismissed?

I hope my very short comment did not offend. Is it the atheists like chanson? You must ignore them, I learned a long time ago it is not possible to argue with them.
May the Lord be with you. I will keep you in my prayers and light a candle for you at church tomorrow (an Orthodox custom). God bless.

Is that to be the goal -- getting an answer? Perhaps the purest reward lies in simply exploring the questions. I agree with you that God gave us brains and I would say that he didn't just give us think-boxes so that they can sit around in our heads. I believe he wants us to use them to think, question, and reason. I believe he created them with the ability to do so.

I accept it. God is bigger than anything I can imagine. Now what?

How do you know? Maybe he in his doggy brain he's conceptualizing just what 1 + 1 might be, whether such a thing as a 1 actually exists, how he can come to enjoy a personal relationship with the mathematical answer, and several other ponderings.

Narrowgate, if this place really does trouble you so, I suggest you take your four-legged friend out for a nice walk. Get some fresh air. Do some square breathing. Pray for us all. We are just a group of people (many of whom are friends) here chatting.

warms a heart on a winters night.

that too!

That is such a cute picture, I didn't notice the eyes at first! The things they are coming up with these days!

Thank God I know everything

ahh, the delight of

how to make them YOURSELF :3

Inanna, those Cinemagraphs are really actually quite cute.

I belong to a facebook group called ZooBorns are they are always posting cute pictures of little baby animals. Here's the address: http://www.facebook.com/#!/ZooBorns

You see...we're just a bunch of smart-arses here! (sorry BB)

really cute pictures MC and Inanna...I so want a puppy (or a cat) but we can't have pets in this building. Narrowgate you're blessed to have a four legged friend!

VERYCUTE ty :3  alas, i've been burned on Fennecs due to a roomie who had one who SCREAMED and SCREAMED and went to the bathroom everywhere...not like his previous Fennec, who was more cat-like :3

narrowgate,

I understand you recently felt you had to leave your Church, that must be a hard exprerience.

I think in time you will find that there is some like-mindedness to some of your notions here, although discussions do get passionate at times.

¹³ You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh^[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. ¹⁴ For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”^{[b] 15} If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. (Galatians 5:13-15)

ahhhh, lets give chanson a hug too.

I'm sorry Narrowgate if I've been dismissive. Rhbilly makes a good point that didn't occur to me. It must be really hard to leave a church you've been with for a long time. If you choose to go for good, I hope you find a new one where people are welcoming and supportive.

(((Group hug))),  chansen! Where's chansen?

Yoo-hoo! Chansen! It's huggies time!!

Narrowgate, many of us in the cafe have faith in God.

The faith that I have in God doesn't only accept questions - it revels in them. There is a deep sense of playfulness and wonder that I find helps me in my relationship with God - especially in those parts that I know I will never completely understand.

To disregard my ability to think and ask questions, for me, would be poor stewardship of a gift God has shared with me. To use those questions as a way of diving into scripture - to read past the literal, to get a sense of the historic and metaphoric - to get a glimpse of what the earliest listeners might have heard, and then to listen again for what God might be saying to me - that's a big part of the questions and thinking and play.

I think that most of us here realize we will never understand everything. But understanding - and experiencing - what we can... that's an adventure I would call "abundant life."

Christ's peace - r

I agree with Inanna. I think scientists have already discovered God, but they don't call IT God.

This doesn't mean that science can or ever will have all of the answers.

Hi narrowgate,

With all respect.  I don't think that you actually do.

That presumes that your dog is wired to think that 1 + 1 is important in some way.  That it somehow proves something.  I don't think dogs are wired that way.  Dogs do understand the concept of 1 + 1.  How they communicate that understanding is different than being able to bark out the right answer.  Dogs, like humans, are social creatures.  They are driven to form packs/communities.  1 is, for any dog, the loneliest number.  + 1 is the solution to the problem of 1.  + 1 = community.

Which on the theological plane translates very well into human experience.  Loneliness is one of humanities great scourges.  We resolve it by forming community just as our dogs form community.  The chief difference being that through religion we do not need the physicality of + 1.  We are content (sometimes) with the + 1 of spirituality.  So long as we can discern the presence of an other we can content ourselves.

True.  The real problem is not that they ask questions.  The real problem is that they cannot find answers.  Typically, for the scientist this means wrestling over and over and over again with the presenting question or moving a few questions back to see if the previous answers are as accurate as they can be.  Rarely does it lead to an industry of infinitely asking questions that have no meaning or hope for answer.

Theologically it often works the same way.  Even knowing that I cannot know everything that there is to know about God, that God is so infinitely huge that I cannot hope, even with the benefit of several thousand lifetimes to know everything there is to know about God why should I quit learning about God?

I know quite a bit about my wife.  I can predict her responses to a myriad of questions or issues.  Would my relationship with her be furthered by not seeking to know her better?  Should I just take her for granted and go no further than I have gone to date?

Your post betrays a frustration with the responses you have been getting to the questions you have been asking.  Was there a script we were supposed to follow?  Will you push beyond what you think you know about us to see if you know truthfully or will you not question the thoughts you have formed about us.  Should we push beyond what we think we know about you to see if we know you truthfully or should we not question the presuppositions that we have already formed?

Without being pompous and arrogant or smug my search is not undertaken with the idea of knowing it all.  My faith is a journey to know God better.  Asking questions is a part of that process.

Have you considered that your dog's faith is the answer to 1 + 1?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Actually this question has been asked and answered a long time ago:

Celsus a 2nd century pagan apologist in speaking of Christianity wrote “For why is it an evil to have been educated, and to have studied the best opinions, and to have both the reality and appearance of wisdom? What hindrance does this offer to the knowledge of God? Why should it not rather be an assistance, and a means by which one might be better able to arrive at the truth?”

Busy winning a ski race.  Something I do once every 5 years or so when the planets align.

It's not impossible at all, and I'm certainly not ignoring you.  You just don't have any evidence or good reasons for me to believe in your god.  I trust that if you ever do, you'll stop ignoring me and be knocking at my door again.  Until that day, you're holding an empty sack of beliefs and claims.

If your criteria for who to follow is who gives you the most answers, you're just fodder for con men.  You're a victim looking to be taken.  Much better, to me, is to admit that we don't have all the answers, than to settle for someone's made up answers.

First, it's not the easiest question. Second, your dog's mathematical abilities have nothing to do with this.

You're right - there is no evidence for God ("proof" is the wrong word).  Christian scientists have been trying for years, and have nothing.  No evidence for the efficacy of prayer, no evidecnce for miracles, no evidence of Noah's Ark, no evidence for God at all.

But scientists solve mysteries all the time.  They've solved mysteries of illness, or else people you know wouldn't be alive today.  They've solved mysteries of all sorts.  I could go on for miles about the mysteries solved through the application of the scientific method.  But whenever people design a test for God, they can't find evidence for God.  You seem to blame scientists for that.  Personally, I find it difficult to blame scientists for an inability to discover something that is very likely to be a fabrication.

Nature is bigger than us.  Our surroundings are bigger than us.  The universe is bigger than us.  God is just a character in a book.

Your dog doesn't have faith - he has a reasonable expectation that you'll take care of him because that's what you've been doing for years.  Your dog is too smart to believe that someone is going to take care of him because it says so in some book.

So, do you have any proof that planetary alignment increases people's chances of winning ski races chansen?

Seriously now, congratultions! Sounds like fun.

Boy, chansen, you should race on Dec. 21st., when our planet aligns with the galactic plane. You'll win in one flying leap!

Just thought I would remind folks that one of the clasic definitions of theology is:

Faith seeking understanding.

As t5o what that means in practice--John already explained it.

from gotquestions.org

Question: "What is Christian Theology?"

Answer:  The word "theology" comes from two Greek words meaning "God" and "word." Combined, the word "theology" means "study of God." Christian theology is the study of what the Bible teaches and what Christians believe. Many believers treat Christian theology as something that is dividing, something that should be avoided. In actuality, Christian theology should be uniting! The Word of God teaches truth and we are to be united behind that truth. Yes, there are disagreements and disputes in Christian theology. Yes, there is freedom to disagree on the non-essentials of Christian theology. At the same time, there is much that Christians should be united over. A Biblically-based Christian theology will enable us to better understand God, salvation, and our mission in this world.

For some, the word “theologian” conjures up images of crusty old men poring over dusty volumes of ancient texts in dimly-lit rooms, studying things completely removed from real life. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Second Timothy 3:16 tells us that all Scripture is inspired by God, literally God-breathed, and is indispensable to us because it makes us complete, lacking nothing. To be a theologian is to be one who seeks the face of God in order to encounter the creator of the universe and His Son, Jesus Christ, and embrace Him as Lord of our lives, so that He becomes the center of our desires, affections and knowledge. This intimacy spreads into all aspects of our lives—thrilling us with its blessings, comforting us in times of loss, strengthening us in our weaknesses and upholding us to the end of our lives when we will see Him face to face. Scripture is God’s story and the more we study His Word, the better we know Him.

Below are the various categories of Christian theology. Understanding what the Bible says about the various areas of Christian theology is key to spiritual growth and effectiveness in the Christian life.

_____________________________________________________________-

It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.(John 6:45)

Exactly as much proof as you have in your God.

Thanks, it was.  Every now and then, I put down a good run.  Either God was guiding my skis on Saturday, or every now and then, training pays off.  And everybody knows that training doesn't help.

As for narrowgate, I think the most egregious part of his rant posts against questions and against people who promote questioning, is that he proposes that we celebrate ignorance.

This celebration of ignorance about anything that is not in the bible, is yet another danger of Christianity.  Just like Christianity has led unsafe to develop dangerous beliefs about the healing power of prayer, narrowgate's Christianity has led him to develop dangerous ideas about the persuit of knowledge.  There are major Christian movements and leaders who want you to be ignorant.  They want you to believe without question.  They will make you feel insolent for asking questions.

My point, is that anyone who attempts to suppress questions has something to hide.  Christianity has quite a lot to hide, from the fact there never was an Adam, to the fact that prayer has no effect, to its more immoral rules and teachings.  Christianity often relies on appeals to its own authority.  If you don't assume it has any authority, it falls apart like a house of cards.  Given that God is often portrayed as an evil prick of a deity, this is very positive news.

narrowgate, I understand your sensivity to other people being smarter than you.But i have rarely seen anybody on this site who claims to understand God and have proof of God's existence. Or the contrary.

Actually, dogs can add one and one. Have you throught of a tutor?

I am wondering if some questions, or questioning has shaken narrowgate's faith, and now s/he is in a crisis.  If so, I hope answers can be found here, and in real life. 

Hi narrowgate --Don't be to harsh on Chansen , I'v been talking to him about God for about  year and a half now. I keep telling him of  The 1 and only 1. I told him I would take an answer of 1-2-or 3-  He keeps saying 0. what I like to know , does your Dog take E-Mail ? I think it would be easyer.  You have a good night narrowgate , and God Bless. Hi Chansen  out  racing some 12 years ha . You old guy should take it a little easyer.  airclean33

maybe just frustrated a little.

i wonder if some here felt a little 'attacked' by norrowgate , and i wonder if he too feels a little 'attacked'

I dont think there is a issue of a 'shaken faith' by some witty questions.

I think narrowgate is quite comfortable with many questions.

I think much of the issue is the direction he feels his Church has taken.

Im not sure exactly, i dont think narrowgate is speaking of remaining in ignorance , but rather issues of some 'questing' to the end express Spirituality in a way that is opposing to the scriptural truths of Christianity to form a theology more relflective of the 'wisdom of the world' and 'present age' over those truths, seemingly as well, issues regarding inter-faith.

I've been racing for 33 years.  I still have my hips and knees, and as long as I do, I'll stay active in this sport and others.  I've noticed that people age faster when they become inactive, so I'm going to keep throwing myself down hills and mountains for as long as I can.  Besides, it's the best thing to do in Canada on Sunday mornings.

u make me laugh

rhbilly are you and narrowgate the same person? As for  feeling attacked by narrowgate,  I can only speak for myself. I personally do not feel attacked. I suspect I am not alone in that feeling. 

Isn't 1 and 1 11?

Actually it's 10.

Narrowgate,

I objected to what others believed. I felt I did not belong. I felt whatever I said they thought they were more right than I... I know how it feels. Except in my case, it was because they were less liberal and for you it was from being too liberal.

It did not matter that they angered me, upset me, hurt me... I missed them. I missed our gatherings and time together. It was a difficult time. The truth is thouugh that it was good discernment on my part to decide to step away.

For some time afterwards, when people said similiar things, disagreed with me or I thought they were... I replayed those conversations back and was hurt, angry, insulted...

I have realized that if I ask "how do you feel about ___?" people are going to answer how they feel and not perhaps what I want to hear.

You seem troubled about questions or about asking them, because you feel it is not faithful. What of Habakkuk, Sarah, Job, Gideon, Moses, Jonah, the Psalms.... Jesus  ("why hast thou forsaken me?")

Is it the answering of the questions? Are you asking what people believe, think, feel... or are you asking what they "know" about God?

We can talk endlessly about what we believe, think, feel... and we would all IMO fall mute on what we know.

Well. I am a freakin' genius. But obviously I have a much bigger issue than acknowledging my massive intelligence.